The Paladin Tank ??

[-Karofin-]

<FONT size=2> <P>I am a lvl 40 Paladin and am struggling as a tank. I realise that the Pally isnt a full on Tank as the Guardian is but since I have not played EQ1 and have had limited group experience as a tank thus far in EQ2. Consequentally my knowledge of what spells to use, what spells to keep upgraded, what strategies to use to keep aggro etc are very limited.</P> <P>I find myself often easily able to pull aggro accidentally off a Guardian of a higher level than me but unable to reclaim aggro from a healer for instance. I am sure that this is down to my playing experience and theat the Paladin Community can help me here. Should I be using heals and wards on people to pull off aggro for instance and increase my hate rather than the linkes of my "Noble Tone" to regain aggro. </P> <P>How essential is it to upgrade the likes of Noble Tone past AppIV or Adept I in order to achieve this. What group buffs if any should I be using when I want to be the MT and also avoiding when I want to keep aggro off me in groups when I am the MA etc.</P> <P>Your advice here would be really appreciated.</P></FONT>

[StormQueen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Karofin- wrote:<BR><FONT size=2> <P>I am a lvl 40 Paladin and am struggling as a tank. I realise that the Pally isnt a full on Tank as the Guardian is but since I have not played EQ1 and have had limited group experience as a tank thus far in EQ2. Consequentally my knowledge of what spells to use, what spells to keep upgraded, what strategies to use to keep aggro etc are very limited.</P> <P>I find myself often easily able to pull aggro accidentally off a Guardian of a higher level than me but unable to reclaim aggro from a healer for instance. I am sure that this is down to my playing experience and theat the Paladin Community can help me here. Should I be using heals and wards on people to pull off aggro for instance and increase my hate rather than the linkes of my "Noble Tone" to regain aggro. </P> <P>How essential is it to upgrade the likes of Noble Tone past AppIV or Adept I in order to achieve this. What group buffs if any should I be using when I want to be the MT and also avoiding when I want to keep aggro off me in groups when I am the MA etc.</P> <P>Your advice here would be really appreciated.</P></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am a 50 Paladin and have found the same issues to be the case. There are other ways to get the mob's attention back off the healer/caster sometimes. Send out a ward, use a buff, send a heal. Takes a lot of power though... Sometimes using an AoE will do the trick.. but be EXTREMELY cautious about using them. Of course continue spamming taunts. Use the group taunt also.  I wish the Paladin taunts were as effective as Guardian taunts but they aren't and probably never will be.</P> <P>Try using Rescue and/or Redemption.  And don't forget your low level Intervene ability. This takes concentration but may be the difference if you cannot get aggro back.  One more thing i am apt to try... that buff that increases another player's Avoidance.. Aegis of Hope is your level 32 one.  If you have a shield equipped try a shield bashing attack.  Make sure your level 37 buff Call to Glory is always up during fights.</P> <P>One more thing: sometimes a huge damage hit can turn the mob. You will just have gained Refusal of Grace, and you have Oath Strike.  If the mob isn't too entrenched it may turn back to you early in the fight.</P> <P>Never assume that one or two taunts during a fight will keep the aggro on you. Make sure that you send a new taunt the moment that it refreshes. </P> <P>This is assuming you are the main tank, but if the mob is on a healer or caster and your main tank cannot retrieve aggro, someone must get it turned, and if it is you, so be it.  Just don't run completely out of power... you will still need to taunt.</P> <P>As far as spell upgrades, I am not yet sure if my Adept 3 Clarion Call taunt is that much better than the App 1 i used to have. If you want to compare spell upgrades, I made charts linked to the <A href="http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=32&meid=53" target=_blank>Spell Chart </A>in the All <A href="http://eq2.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=12&meid=53" target=_blank>Paladin All the Time guide</A> on my guild's website.  Just click on the spell name you want to compare. I am filling in the upgrades as i find them.</P> <DIV>By the way, now that you are level 40, make sure you use your Summon Squire spell when you can. It will help you in surprising ways. It can even get mob aggro from mob AoE, and if you are in a solo situation and have to run... the squire will block for you as you get away. Saved my bacon many times on bad pulls/adds.  And now that you have gained your Refusal of Grace you will begin to find that you have more DPS by far than a couple levels ago. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I am the MT I don't buff the group with concentration-using spells; instead i go equipped with 1H weapon and shield, and cast my 3-concentration-slot defense buff on myself (you would use Shining Beacon) along with my strength, stamina and wisdom increasing buff ( you would use Pious Belief) and my Weapon Proc buff (this would be Righteous Cause). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I am MA I don't use the defensive buff; instead i put the str/sta/wis buff on the main tank, healer and backup healer or if no backup healer i choose a physical DPS toon like a monk. I still usually use a shield unless group DPS is low then i will use my 2H weapon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope this helps you in your endeavors. Good luck!</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div></div>For a point of reference, my skills are as follows:L49 Paladin:-- Clarion Call (Taunt) - Adept 1-- Smite Prayer (Taunt) - Adept 1-- Call to Glory (Hate XFer) - App IV-- Courageous Dash (Shield Bash w/ hate) - App IV-- Display of Devotion (Ward with 1% Hate) - Adept 1At L49 I also picked up Holy Symbol AppIV - which is an AoE (encounter) plus encounter Hate, but my example below was without this.My example:Place - Solusek's Eye<a target="_blank" href="http://eq2.ogaming.com/db/zones/SoluseksEye.php"></a>Group - MT = L48 Paladin (me) - Mystic (L46 I think) - L46 Warlock - L47 Wizard - L46 Wizard - L46 CoercerAs you can tell, the above group was an aggro hog, with 3 sorcerer's in it.Result:With the above skills, I never once lost aggro for more then 2-3 seconds. The WizLocks (<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) were nuking like crazy and AoE'ing as well when needed (Miners, and whatnot which attack in groups in the very beginning) and I didn't have a problem with aggro. Of course I didn't need to provide DPS (and had power regen from the Chanter) at all to this group so it wasn't as hard to keep aggro, but we are very capable of handling aggro at high levels (we went deep in, to the L50 FireGiants, etc)  with huge aggro generators if we play our cards right.-- Pull (Refusal of Grace or Divine Judgement [long range])-- AoE Taunt-- AoE Shield Bash-- Call to Glory-- Display of Devotion-- Switch targets and hit with Single target tauntAlso, this was WITHOUT redemption on the Warlock (I don't have the concentration space for Benediction, and the L40 Training Buff on Main Healer [for Wisdom buff], and then the Training buff on me [for the STR/STA/AGI]) or Wizard during the whole time we were there...which was about 4-5 hours.Just thought I would share, some of my experiences...<div></div>

[hylozoist]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Karofin- wrote:<BR><FONT size=2> <P>Should I be using heals and wards on people to pull off aggro for instance and increase my hate rather than the linkes of my "Noble Tone" to regain aggro. </P> <P>How essential is it to upgrade the likes of Noble Tone past AppIV or Adept I in order to achieve this. What group buffs if any should I be using when I want to be the MT and also avoiding when I want to keep aggro off me in groups when I am the MA etc.</P> <P>Your advice here would be really appreciated.</P></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't use heals (nor wards) to generate aggro very often; instead I only use them in real emergencies or to heal myself when my groupmates' power is low.  Heals generate some aggro, but the negative is that you have to target someone to heal, and that takes precious time.  Further, both spells have a fairly long cast time.  To get aggro, I prefer spells which take less casting time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noble tone (or any of the other taunts) are very useful to keep aggro, no doubt.  But, even an App II or even App I version of the spell is enough to keep aggro in most groups if you know what you're doing.  I only had App IV's of these spells and I never lost aggro, except due to bugs in zones like Zek.  Thus, spell upgrades aren't really going to make or break you - it's really the other things you do to manage the entire encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind that there are many ways to keep enough aggro.  A few were described above, and there's no one perfect way to do it.  I build aggro like normal, simply by using my group and single taunts at the start of the battle and then simply fighting as usual.  When I lose aggro, I employ a buff - nuke method.  This starts by hitting Prayer of Devotion/Conviction (because it is fastest cast buff), nuking the mob that is straying (either Refusal of Grace or Oath/Sworn Strike), then hitting both taunts.  I will then hit the Call of Glory line, just in case.  In 75% of the cases, this is enough to turn a mob back which I had aggro and then lost.  There are still other skills I can use (shield bash line, more nukes) to generate more aggro, still.  This entire sequence tends to take up some power, but not more than the rest of the group is doing usually.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure why I encounter the same phenomenon as you do - I find it easy to pull aggro from guardians but more difficult to pull it from healers or high dps.  I do pull it back eventually using this method, though.  You have to experiment for yourself (for example, I don't use the redemption or intervene line of spells unlike most other paladins, just because I find it clumsy).  Just remember: </DIV> <DIV>1. Buffs do almost as much aggro as taunts (check out weapon procs with buffs as well for this phenomenon, although paladin choices are narrow)</DIV> <DIV>2. Taunt early and if you have a high dps group, often</DIV> <DIV>3. Big damage skills draw aggro fast, which is why some HO's (like Luck's Bite) help if you finish them, otherwise bigger nukes are great</DIV> <DIV>4. Debuffs add a tiny bit extra aggro over the mere damage - stuns (like the charge line), or Doom Judgment's DPS decrease effect</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope that helps at all.</DIV>

[Yrield]

If the group dps is high i taunt only once pers fight 1. divine judgement adept1 2. zealous preaching adept3 3. ancient wrath adept1 4. holy symbol adept1 (i think the description is wrong for this spell, should be: AE crushing DD + hate + fear, but in fact its: AE divine DD + minor group heal) 5. various combat art, when zealous preaching is ready to be reused im on the last mob of the group <span>:smileyvery-happy: if the group dps is low or he we fight something with a lot of HP 1. divine judgement 2. Fighting chance + shatter will + zealous preaching 3. ancient wrath (if more than 1 mobs) 4. clarion call adept3 5. holy symbol (if more than 1 mobs) 6. various combat art 7. mob die, opening move on the 2nd mob: courageous dash 8. zealous preaching 9. various combat art 10. mob die, opening move on the 3rd mob: blessed rush + clarion call etc... Be sure to start with an AE taunt + a fast casting AE DD (always be the first in the group to use an AE) I dont pull with refusal of grace because i use my divine debuff before the *big nuke* Keep Call to glory up all the time, rescast in combat if some adds join the party, you wont have to change your target to bring adds on you (and the silly warlock wont nuke your new friends for 1.6k with nil distortion because he assist you <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span>) follow with an AE, that should be enough to keep the add on you until you wipe the previous encounter (of course if the healer have to spawn heal to keep you alive, throw an AE taunt on those guys before its too late !) If the healer pull aggro, he should know by now (lvl40) to not self-heal, if you have 2 healers, the others healer heal him, if not YOU heal him. A self-healing priest dig his own grave <span>:smileymad:</span> I only use redemption for trivial (boring) encounter... so i can slack without anyone notice <span>:smileywink: Oh yeah wards... i do use ward... to open chest when no scouts around to disarm... <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></span><div></div>

[Paintball33]

I'm only 34, but I have been MT very often and USUALLY do not have a problem keeping aggro. I like to use a 2 hander because I find that having a high DPS can help keep your aggro, which is why when you use a shield you have to have an extra aggro move (the shield bash one). Also, use your single HOs at the very beginning, it seems to give aggro bonuses. The most important thing though, ALWAYS try to pull the mobs, if someone else in your group pulls them I can have a very hard time getting them off after a few seconds. If someone else pulls and I do a bunch of real fast taunts, then I can usually keep aggro, just makes more sense for the tank to pull though. Also, make sure your group is always assisting you or they will easily pull other mobs off and it can then be hard to keep all mobs on you, especially when they were seperate encounters (AoE taunt if only AoE if the targets are linked).

[TrueRuneCra]

<P>Paladins can tank just fine, if you know how to play your class to its fullest capabilities.</P> <P>I see so many posts on these boards saying that paladins can't hold aggro well, they use too much power, and can't tank as well as a guardian. To be honest, I don't understand how people could be saying such things.</P> <P>I main tank every lv50+ raid encounter currently in the game, and do it without dying, without losing aggro, and for the most part without wasting all my power. The only times I lose power are when mobs drain it (like Arch Lich and Lord Nagalik for example). It's been a while since I was in an exp group, so that might be a little different but I doubt it. When we raid, we have scouts with fabled items going all out, and we've got mages with adept3/master1 spells going all out as well. Still, they can't steal aggro unless I'm slackin'.</P> <P>To me, this is just common sense, but maybe I can help a few of you guys out. </P> <P>The main thing is in-combat mana regeneration. Golden Efreeti boots and Manastone help alot, and I suggest you complete those quests as soon as you can if you haven't already. Aside from that, I keep my inventory windows open and the bag with my manastone open as well. I switch my +12sta doll for manastone every minute, and also switch in Dark Hearts when our necro summons them. Sometimes having these bags open blocks most of my screen, but that doesn't really matter. You don't need to see what's going on if you're certain that all the mobs are on you.</P> <P>While switching +sta doll for mana items, I pay very close attention to my recast timers. Clarion Call, Zealous Preaching, Blessed Rush, Sworn Strike, and Courageous Dash are used instantly when they repop. Every 2-3 minutes I also use Theron's Call of Hope (Trait group buff) because it adds hate as well. I rarely ward, but use it when I'm doing fine on power, since it helps with aggro.</P> <P>Between recasting spells, and switching items into the activateable slot every minute, playing a Paladin takes up your full concentration if done right. And as a reward, you do <STRONG>not</STRONG> lose aggro. When I'm slacking and forget to re-use skills as they pop, that's when aggro is lost.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now, a point that was brought up, getting aggro back once lost <EM>is</EM> very challenging. But that's because the hate list isn't programmed properly I think. Sometimes, even if the person who stole aggro isn't casting and you're spamming all you got, you still won't aggro. And, well, there's nothing you can really do about that. The trick is to get aggro from the start, and keep it. If you don't lose it mid-fight, then you won't have to worry about the problems of getting it back.</P> <P> </P> <P>And once again, the key here is to have good in-combat power regeneration. You can't use your skills to their full potential if you're outta power <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Hope this helps, and I'm sorry if I was vague in some areas. I just want everyone to realize that Paladins <STRONG>can</STRONG> tank very well. Ask anyone in my guild!</P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>TrueRuneCraft wrote:<p>Paladins can tank just fine, if you know how to play your class to its fullest capabilities.</p> <p>I see so many posts on these boards saying that paladins can't hold aggro well, they use too much power, and can't tank as well as a guardian. To be honest, I don't understand how people could be saying such things.</p> <p>I main tank every lv50+ raid encounter currently in the game, and do it without dying, without losing aggro, and for the most part without wasting all my power. The only times I lose power are when mobs drain it (like Arch Lich and Lord Nagalik for example). It's been a while since I was in an exp group, so that might be a little different but I doubt it. When we raid, we have scouts with fabled items going all out, and we've got mages with adept3/master1 spells going all out as well. Still, they can't steal aggro unless I'm slackin'.</p> <p>To me, this is just common sense, but maybe I can help a few of you guys out. </p> <p>The main thing is in-combat mana regeneration. Golden Efreeti boots and Manastone help alot, and I suggest you complete those quests as soon as you can if you haven't already. Aside from that, I keep my inventory windows open and the bag with my manastone open as well. I switch my +12sta doll for manastone every minute, and also switch in Dark Hearts when our necro summons them. Sometimes having these bags open blocks most of my screen, but that doesn't really matter. You don't need to see what's going on if you're certain that all the mobs are on you.</p> <p>While switching +sta doll for mana items, I pay very close attention to my recast timers. Clarion Call, Zealous Preaching, Blessed Rush, Sworn Strike, and Courageous Dash are used instantly when they repop. Every 2-3 minutes I also use Theron's Call of Hope (Trait group buff) because it adds hate as well. I rarely ward, but use it when I'm doing fine on power, since it helps with aggro.</p> <p>Between recasting spells, and switching items into the activateable slot every minute, playing a Paladin takes up your full concentration if done right. And as a reward, you do <strong>not</strong> lose aggro. When I'm slacking and forget to re-use skills as they pop, that's when aggro is lost.</p> <p>Now, a point that was brought up, getting aggro back once lost <em>is</em> very challenging. But that's because the hate list isn't programmed properly I think. Sometimes, even if the person who stole aggro isn't casting and you're spamming all you got, you still won't aggro. And, well, there's nothing you can really do about that. The trick is to get aggro from the start, and keep it. If you don't lose it mid-fight, then you won't have to worry about the problems of getting it back.</p> <p>And once again, the key here is to have good in-combat power regeneration. You can't use your skills to their full potential if you're outta power <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>Hope this helps, and I'm sorry if I was vague in some areas. I just want everyone to realize that Paladins <strong>can</strong> tank very well. Ask anyone in my guild!</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Nice to hear from someone who has tanked Epic x 4's successfully <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Especially from a guild who I know has done all of the high end content. I agree 100% though about your main point, of getting aggro from the start, too many times I OT (because 99% of people will pick the same level Warrior over Crusader to MT, unless you have grouped with them before) and take over MT because the Zerker or Guardian think they can play on cruise control.... From a Guardian vs Paladin standpoint, if we get aggro in the beginning (and have the power to sustain it) we WILL not lose aggro to the Guardian. I did some testing last night with myself and a L50 Guardian in my guild when we were trying to get some SM starters from Agony for a couple guildies. When the Guardian pulled aggro in the beginning and continued to keep aggro during the fight (mostly we were doing when we fought Thulian Magnus, or Agony - since the L40ish PH's for Agony, aren't a good test) - no matter what I did, I could not pull aggro from him. When the Guardian pulled aggro in the beginning and acted lazy (on purpose) I was able to get aggro after running through my train of aggro generation. When the Paladin (me) pulled aggro in the beginning and continued to keep aggro during the fight, the Guardian could NOT get aggro back from me. When the Paladin pulled aggro in the beginning and acted lazy (again on purpose), the Guardian was able to pull back aggro faster then I could. </span><div></div>

[jshari]

one thing i find extreamly usefull  is ask your group to give you  like  5 or so sec's with the mob, to taunt and what not, this helps alot! when ever i do this then do my regular taunting i dont lose agro. Also HO's are important get 1 or more off. and like the others said wards can help, so i pull the mob and while its running to me i ward for added agro <div></div>

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<P>One word: Redemption</P> <P>Always use it on the healer in group with yout. It takes 30% of their hate generated and give it to you, thereby lowering their hate total and boosting your own.</P> <P>Group buffs: You have a group buff that adds Wis and HP's to your group, Prayer of Devotion, use it in combat. It can be long to cast but nothing generates nice hate like a groupwide buff.  </P> <P>Divine Inspiration is also a good way to grab group aggro and transfer it to you. I am only 36 but have not received an upgrade to this yet and I find it very helpful in grabbing back aggro. At your level I would assume it would be Call to Glory.</P> <P>Faithful Zeal ward those with aggro, no it is not mana efficient but it gives them a fast defense buffer and helps irease your aggro gen, not a lot but when your rying to grab back aggro every bit helps. </P> <P>Target the mob and hit Rescue then your best Taunt (Noble Tone I assume). This should boost you up one POSITION on the hate list to start and then add some nice hate on top of that. This should really start off your hate generation whenever someone gets aggro off of you.</P> <P>Also never underestimate the use of your dot's. Oath Strike (or in your case  Refusal of Grace) followed by a nice Implacable Wrath can inflict some heavy initial damage and a very nice set of dot damage that helps kill the mob and raise your aggro. I have both mine at adept three and I generally do so much damage using them that I never lose aggro to begin with. Of course I also HO and taunt with noble tone as much as I can as well.</P> <P>While not all of our powers are power efficient, we do have enough tools to generate hate if we bother to use them all. Looked at individually they may not do a ton but used together the effects stack and work, at least in my experience.</P>

[Syf]

<DIV>Rune,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aren't the efreeti boots, very light armor? The regen effect sounds really nice, and might be worth the loss in AC, i dunno.</DIV>

[TrueRuneCra]

<DIV>Losing one piece of heavy armor doesn't make a difference in my opinion. The boots add 20 in-combat power regen, which is almost half of what Insight adds. It's totally worth it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course I use my heavy boots when tanking some of the more difficult encounters, but Efreeti boots are nice to have.</DIV>

[GrimRog]

<P>Hey all, noob here running a lvl 20 paladin...yup, fresh meat lol.</P> <P>I am having a problem with all the lingo and was wondering if someone could post a guide for noobs like me.</P> <P>I got DPS-Damage Per second, and I know what aggro is...but so much of the thread here speaks in shorthand and I really would like to be able to follow and understand it.</P> <P>Hook a brutha up!</P>

[Anariale]

<div></div>There is not a tank in the game that can pull group aggro like a Paladin.  Plain and simple. (Certain classes can pull single target aggro better, but not group or even cross-encounter) 2 Group Buffs (One that transfers 5% or 10% of all group aggro to you) 1 Group Taunt 1 ST Taunt 1 Attack that Taunts Self Buffs that increase hate gain Conc buff that transfers 30%+ aggro from another player to you In addition to 2 PBAE DD's (one has a DoT so be careful with the Enchanters) 1 Group AE 2 400+ damage single target attacks All of that in addition to a Ward and a Heal If you cant hold aggro as a Paladin, you should try cycling your taunting abilities in different orders and starting to understand how aggro in the game works. Typically as MT, Im cycling my AE Taunt, 2 group buffs and Group/PBAE DD's (the DoT is only when the chanter isnt there).  This will pretty much insure that Im holding aggro.  If I lose aggro on a mob, Ill change to that mob, Ward the target its attacking (if possible due to raid restrictions), then ST Taunt, then use the Charge-Taunt that stuns the mob.  When the mob is stunned, I tell the target of the mob to move away from the mob, then I just pull the mob back home.  If I cant regain aggro by then, just spam out some more ST damage, a Heal or recycle your buffs. You will get aggro back. Its not hard to be MT as a Paladin.  In fact, Paladins have the highest Defense in game as of right now (cap at 297 on my Pally).  The only place Guardians have us is on a couple HP and I believe one melee mitigation buff. Seriously, dont let people tell you that your Paladin cant do the job. You can if you just know how to use all the tools at your disposal. W <div></div><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<DIV> <P>I have fewer problems with aggro management in groups of three or more.  Duo situations can get really bad with certain professions so tactics change a lot for managing aggro based on the group size and makeup.</P> <P>The tactic I employ most when I'm grouped with three or more is as follows:</P> <P>- I complete a solo HO (heroic opportunity) pull.  If the mob I'm pulling is a solo encounter, the HO ends with my solo taunt.  If the mob I'm pulling is a multi encounter, the HO ends with my AOE taunt.  After I complete the first HO, my group joins in the fun.  </P> <P>Next, I use whichever taunt is up (Clarion Call or Zealous Preaching @ 50).  The third sequence of events in my attack is "Call to Glory" (group buff)--this is our bad boy aggro manager IMHO.</P> <P>Finally, I use Prayer of Conviction (another group buff).  If we don't have a scout chaining HOs, I spend the rest of the encounter starting HOs as fast as possible and completing 2 and usually 3 person HO events.  My taunts are used for continued aggro management as quickly as they are available unless I'm timing them with precise fighter->mage HO events which end 90 percent of the time with a taunt or shield bash.  I DO NOT use my call or prayer prior to engagement ONLY like I see many others do.  I use them IN BATTLE.  I have had numerous players tell me it's up for x amount of time and I don't need to recast.</P> <P>Wait until your aggro is stolen and cast Call to Glory and watch it come right back even if the spell effects are currently on the group.  It works and it works extremely well.  The prayer is just icing on the cake for making the mob nearly unstealable again, or is it that the shock of loosing aggro slaps us in the face and makes us focus on it that much harder? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>When/if I loose aggro, my get back method is as follows:</P> <P>- taunt (whichever is available first based on recast timers)<BR>- shield bash<BR>- call to glory (usually regain aggro if I taunt at least once and then cast this)<BR>- if I still don't have aggro (prayer)<BR>- if I still don't have aggro (ward)<BR>- if I still don't have aggro (heal - blessed aid line)<BR>- if I still don't have aggro and it's feasible based on other mobs in the area (AOE attacks)<BR>- if I still don't have aggro (rescue)<BR>- if I still don't have aggro (continue to heal the player so they don't die, LOH if required, taunt every second I can and hope call to glory is back up soon as it's my saving grace)</P> <P>I have to honestly say once again that I think HOs either because of the damage bonuses, (rolling through mobs faster), the bigger group buffs, etc. aggro management is less of an issue the more I do (and complete) HOs.</P> <P>If I have a group member that constantly steals aggro (not usually a problem), I try to figure out why before throwing up a band aid remedy.  If it's another tank class stealing aggro a decision needs to be made right away on who is MT and who is OT/Secondary Tank.  Only the MT should be working aggro management with taunts--period.  You all know as well as I do, you've been in groups with some guy/gal that is bent on pulling mobs and working aggro.  They just can NOT give up the MT role no matter what.  I either compromise and drop off as OT or I look for another group if I feel like I can't deal with the situation.  I really enjoy the OT role since I MT a great deal, so I'm usually more then happy to take a break every now and then and let someone else work aggro while I button mash <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I feel it really hurts the group to have two tanks burning up mana trying to take over one anothers aggro for whatever reason.</P> <P>You'd be surprised at the number of 40+ players that are not targeting the MT.  It's not going to be difficult on a multi encounter event (without MA support) for a group member soloing a mob that the rest of the group is currently ignoring to steal aggro.  I played with a tank profession one night that was sending me private tells "About to steal your aggro .. get ready" and then "haha I got it".  I actually was more interested in watching the method then paying attention to the madness so I kept quite and closely examined combat.  The tank class was individually selecting a mob the group wasn't fighting and was taunting like crazy.  No wonder aggro was stolen--we didn't have a MA and the whole group was targeting me but this one guy.  Instead of bumping the guy from the group or getting into a flame war, I just put the individual under redemption and watched for stolen aggro at which time I took it back with call to glory.  The combat was focused on mostly green and blue mobs, so it wasn't a big deal, but worth nothing that not all aggro stolen is stolen because a failure on your part.<BR><BR>The fastest way to loose aggro is to do a bad pull with mobs surrounding you in a circle and the group standing right beside you.  I see this all the time.  AOE damage alone is enough to keep the healer chain healing, which will focus the mob attention much more quickly then just the healer working on the tank.  Make sure you put yourself facing the mob, then the mob, then the group behind the mob!  I couldn't tell you the number of 50's I've been grouped with lately that just pull and stand there with mobs all over the whole party.  They should and DO know better.  Turn the mobs away from the group.</P> <P>Duo situations are different.  If you are in duo situation with some professions, aggro management often times becomes a team effort.  There's only hate to mitigate between two players.  I duo with a Swashbuckler buddy (in VOIP/Teamspeak/Vent) and often have difficulty without HOs holding aggro.  The actual problem seems to surface on a few mobs, go away for a period of time and then resurface again later on certain mobs.  There have been times when I've fought a mob solo (still grouped) into the orange (say a green ^^) using solo HO after solo HO.  I have used ALL our wards and laugh at the idea of loosing aggro.  I've had my buddy join the battle (melee only) and steal my aggro within 3 seconds.  Likewise, I've used the entire arsenal a Paladin has to regain aggro while I sit and watch in disbelief as we evac to avoid his death <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I've tried placing him under the redemption line, I've tried at least a dozen or more different tactics with varying levels of success.  However, I've come to the conclusion that aggro management is more difficult with certain dps classes when there's just two players to offset all the mob hate.</P> <P>We have found a happy medium now that requires no redemption and works almost always.  However, there are certain mobs (Clay Golems in Cazic-Thule) that just love eating Swashbucklers.  Oh well, no biggie, we know what's waiting for us before we engage and I work aggro management twice as hard when we do engage those mobs.  Most of the time through HOs, normal taunts and a ward here and there it's never an issue, but it's always good to research why you're loosing aggro before you change the whole game plan on a whim to try and compensate.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P></DIV>

[Anariale]

^--- I do the same thing, but I find throwing a Ward out first is best for: 1)  Fast Cast time 2)  Can keep a light armor class from dying 3)  Increases your Hategain 4)  Its a 600 HP Ward (800 with Master), and that builds a ton of aggro After that, its generally the order noted above... Ward Shield Stun Taunt Heavy Damage (Ive had mobs not change target becuase I dont actually do damage, its odd) Buff Buff etc etc W <div></div>

[-Karofin-]

<P>Firstly let me say a sincere thank you to all who have replied to this post.  I ave read and re-read all of the comments on this post and they have so far heped me immensely.  I still feel I have a long way to go to become as proficient as some of the posters here but with the info you have posted I have stepped onto the road to begin the journey.</P> <P>A few definitive questions to add to this if I may......  </P> <P>1) - At level 40 what do you suggest I use as buffs for myself and the party working as a MT.  With only 5 concentration spots it looks a hard choice to me to get the right buffs.  Is there a proven formula.</P> <P>2) - What spells should I be spending my hard earned Platinum on to upgrade to Adept III and Master etc..... What are the top 3 most useful spells for a lvl 50 Pally I suppose for this one.</P> <P>3) - Are Paladin's capable of handling Epic Mobs...?  I have been told that they would not be able to do this against a guardian but I don't see why not myself.</P> <P>4) - Lastly... (everyone breathes a sigh of relief)   Are there any tips on improving the defences...?  SHould I be buying a specific Doll or rRing or looking at specific items for the class etc...?  I am readeing up on as much as I can but this does seemto be an area that is lacking.  From "Examine"ing  high level fighters that pass it also seems most have different items too - AGI, STA, STR etc etc.  Other than not having 2 rings the same etc is there a trick to this...?</P> <P>Again, thanks so far to all those who have helped me understend the role and use of the Pally better.</P> <P> </P>

[SanJ]

<P>Firstly let me say a sincere thank you to all who have replied to this post.  I ave read and re-read all of the comments on this post and they have so far heped me immensely.  I still feel I have a long way to go to become as proficient as some of the posters here but with the info you have posted I have stepped onto the road to begin the journey.</P> <P>A few definitive questions to add to this if I may...... </P> <P>1) - At level 40 what do you suggest I use as buffs for myself and the party working as a MT.  With only 5 concentration spots it looks a hard choice to me to get the right buffs.  Is there a proven formula.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>When I MT I use all 5 of my concentration slots on me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That is Crusade, Benediction and ... oh the yellow background with sword .. you asked me to fast, Righteous Cause (if I'm not mistaken).  I do this on epic x 2 mobs and MT then frequently these days.  When I offtank, I typically put Crusade up on as many players as possibly and place Unwavering Faith on the MT and Gift of Armament (not always but usually).  If I'm having aggro problems from a particular class I may use Redemption to transfer a portion of their hate back to me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I also use Call to Glory and Prayer of Conviction on my group and I keep up Blessing of the Devout simply for the HP increase.</FONT></P> <P>2) - What spells should I be spending my hard earned Platinum on to upgrade to Adept III and Master etc..... What are the top 3 most useful spells for a lvl 50 Pally I suppose for this one.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I'll let some of the other 50's answer this question as I have all adept 1's sans my level 50 spells which are all apprentice 4 at the moment.  I rarely have any aggro issues with adept 1's and I group with high DPS classes a lot.  I would suggest that before you purchase an Adept 3, you examine your Apprentice 4 or an Adept 1 and compare the difference.  I've seen "master" spells that just marginally better then apprentice 4 in some cases.  Some are nice upgrades, some aren't worth the coin.  Keep working on uber gear first as adept 1's will suffice through 50.  I'll be switching to some if not all adept 3's over time, but not until I have a nice coin reserve and full suit of ebon or mix of ebon and fabled.</FONT></P> <P>3) - Are Paladin's capable of handling Epic Mobs...?  I have been told that they would not be able to do this against a guardian but I don't see why not myself.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes.  We have Paladins on this forum that have successfully raid Main Tanked every epic in the game.</FONT></P> <P>4) - Lastly... (everyone breathes a sigh of relief)   Are there any tips on improving the defences...?  SHould I be buying a specific Doll or rRing or looking at specific items for the class etc...?  I am readeing up on as much as I can but this does seemto be an area that is lacking.  From "Examine"ing  high level fighters that pass it also seems most have different items too - AGI, STA, STR etc etc.  Other than not having 2 rings the same etc is there a trick to this...?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>A lot of the difference you see between Paladins is "roles-based."  Some Paladins tend to MT and MT only.  They choose training upgrades that suit their needs best, go for highest MIT/Avoid. and focus less on power (WIS) and damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Other Paladins off tank primarily and go for more mana to cast, worry less about the higest HP and take training upgrades differently.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Currently, our primary attribute is STR.  There's also a lot of focus on AGI, STA, and WIS.  The up and coming combat revamp may greatly dictate a demand for increase of WIS, so you'll have to play that by ear.  It's certainly possible to equip two rings you DON'T plan to wear, cast the buffs, remove them and then place on two more to pick up more stat increases.  I use STR, STA, AGI and WIS rings.  I cast the WIS, AGI first and then I switch out for STR, STA rings that I leave equipped until it's time to recast.  I felt like my HP was a little low for my level through 46-50, so I converted two figwarts into tier 5 STA hex dolls.  You can equip two dolls of the same stat modifer just not two rings that like imbued.</FONT></P> <P>Again, thanks so far to all those who have helped me understend the role and use of the Pally better.</P> <P>Good luck to you!</P> <P></P> <DIV><STRONG>Karofin Slayne - Paladin / Weaponsmith<BR>Daxxle Slayne - Templar / Jeweller </STRONG><BR><BR>Guild Leader of Avatars of the Gallant Order<BR>Blackburrow Server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV>

[Syf]

The agility hex doll is pretty nice too. The spell you cast can slow the mob down up to 27% or something like that.

[MickM]

hey Anariale just wondering how u got your def up to 197?.... do you mean self buff'd or with player buffs? and if self wanted to know how. i have a guardian friend that can buff hisself up to 280def but i can only get mine to around 266 self buff'd.

[-Karofin-]

<P>Hi all,</P> <P>Firstly let me again that all those who poured their valuable time and priceless knowledge unto this oritiganl post to help me.  I feel I have scome a long way with my class thanks to the tips here.</P> <P>Just wanted to open this up after the rebalance to see if anyone has any info on the limitations or new doors opening with the Pally.  Now a lvl 50 Pally I have had a good amount of group experience myself.    Aggro is not a problem at all.  My ranger friend is usually top of the DPS ladder using combat stats and I now challenge him to take aggro off me.  He loses every time with my Adept III "Amends" spell cast on him.  SImply the best money I have spent lately.</P> <P>I need to upgrade to cobalt armour and weaponry as soon as I can afford it now.  My thoughts are turning to raiding.  ANyone got any advice on using the Pally as a raid MT - I am particulary interested in whether I should be using my /respec to take the STR or the STA where available and also if there are any mobs that I should be looking to take on for raids as a Pally.  Oh and generally any tips from the community on how to give myself the best Mitigation (othr than buying cobalt that is)... Have I said that already......   Did i mention whether STR or STA is best too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     Over to the experts.....</P><p>Message Edited by -Karofin- on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>