-PVP- How are paladins doing?

[jshari]

I have heard on other posts about pvp, furys are owning atm and pallys not so good (acording to 1 or 2 fights mentioned in the post) What are your thoughts? Have you pvped on test server? Examples? thanks <div></div>

[Kherval]

<P>I haven't been on test at all, so I haven't had a chance to see or experience any pvp action, but I thought I'd post a few thoughts of my own anyway.</P> <P>First of all, I think that paladins will have a rough time up until level 40 or so.  I don't really think that we come into our own until that point (even later maybe.. say 45 or so) in some respects; mainly dealing damage.  This is just a subjective opinion though, and I'm sure a lot of other people disagree.  I admit that I felt perfectly comfortable as a paladin the entire time I've been playing, but at 45 I started to become impressed by the sheer damage output.  </P> <P>I read the thread about some of the duel results, and it seems like kiting could be a big problem for us.  However, as a level 50 paladin, I'd feel entirely comfortable with someone trying to kite me.  We have Refusal of Grace, as well as several other long-range damage spells which we can cast while moving.  This should be a big advantage, as we should be able to operate semi-effectively with this as a secondary strategy.</P> <P>Zealous Preaching should help us a lot too.  Such a big divine debuff is bound to boost our damage significantly against players.  Another big strategy I think we'll be able to employ is a quick stun with our shield bash, followed by a Sworn Strike and Refusal of Grace.  This would be a lot of damage in an incredibly short amount of time which could catch a lot of people off-guard.  Of course, people will come to realize that we can drop them in an instant like this, and will make sure to keep their hp at a higher minimum level, but this will definitely throw off their game-plan, which is always helpful.</P> <P>Another obvious benefit to our class is our healing.  I think that this will help us to be more adaptable.  Basically, we should end up being perfectly comfortable fighting with all-out offense, or all-out defense.  Although, I admit that our heals will eat up a lot of power, so this might be more difficult than the offensive approach.</P> <P>Anyway, those are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.  I'd love to see what others think about this!</P>

[jshari]

Yeah i think your right, i think we will do good and hold our own but its guna take alota skill to pull off i wonder how this is all gunna turn out <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>You are correct. Palys dont become efficient DPS until +38 or so. Before then we sort of guardianish in our DPS. Its late in the game that we start to see a nice DPS increase, compared to other tanks. Our AoE DPS cannot be matched by ANY other tank, Our single target is pretty decent as well.</P> <P>As I have posted around, many of our skills can be used while stunned or rooted. I would think the trick is to rush and bash stun, taunt for the divine damage increase, and unload with Refusal, Sworn, shatter will ( for the wisdom debuff) and the meele debuffs. Executed correctly you can shave 1/3 HP  to 2/3 (caster types) in a matter of seconds. The loss in HP so quickly will make them nervous, maybe giving you another opening. Remember to keep using your stun as soon at it refreshes and follow it up again with the previous sequence. I wouldnt bother using wards, except maybe to absorb some of the dots from kiters and damage from caster types.</P> <P>I would agree that low to mid lvl palys will have a difficult time. High lvl Palys will do rather well ( I hope!)</P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Poochymama]

<DIV>If you think your AOE dmg is better than any other tank than you have obviously never met a berserker. There is no way in hell a pally with the same lvl of skills as a berserker could ever out AOE dmg a berserker. LOUD NOISES!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>You are incorrect. After the rampage nerf, Bers AoE is average. Please visit the Bers thread on this. Also please dont tell me I dont know what im talking about, because even if you are a zerker, I box a guild zerker sometimes and i have compared and parsed. Paladins have 4 AoE on diff short cast timers. One, Doom Judgement does almost 3k, Holy Symbol, Decree, and Ancient wrath are ALL on diff timers. I am not going to post this info because of nerf poss, but any Paladin lvl 50 will tell you about these AoE.  Not that this will help dueling, but it gives lower lvl palys grp DPS to look forward to.</P> <P>I do invite you to send me a PM so I can explain to you in more detail. </P> <P>Uzhiel, Lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:55 PM</span>

[Red Sox Suck]

<DIV>wrong, Pallys will not outdamage a Zaerker when it comes to AOE.  Zerkers have Rampage (which yes is nerfed but still does significant damage, only complaint with zerkers is that it is still on 1 hour timer), Berseker Assault, Destructive Rage, Wallop, Salughter, and stunning roar.  all which do major damage.  I am not a Paladin hater, I could care less what classes people are I just play for fun.  But thats just how it is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Titali]

<DIV>lol ok, that 1 hour timer seems pretty significant. maaayyybe thats just me.</DIV>

[Poochymama]

Hah 4 aoe's berserkers have 5 that do more dmg with much shorter timers. If you think you can outdmg a zerker maybe you should go read some of sabins post. LOUD NOISES!!!!!

[Poochymama]

the berserker aoe's are Rampage, Berserker Asaault, Destructive Rage, Wallop, Slaughter, Stunning Roar, and Blood rage that is 7 different AOE's on different timers. Rampage and Blood rage could count as two since they are so good. I had blood rage proc 21 times one time, not average but hay. LOUD NOISES!!!!

[Rhianni]

I havent dueled in EQ2 but if its like any other game that has pvp in it its all about speed.  Whoever can deal the most damage the quickest.  Paladins are good for survival and durability but I dont see us doing enough damage to win often. <div></div>

[Avigat]

<DIV>Actually, unless combat art effectiveness is reduced across the board for pvp (similar to eq1), PvP will get us nerfed because we do too much damage.  (not my opinion, but thats how other classes will see it when we open a can of whoopass on them.)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Avigator on <span class=date_text>05-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 AM</span>

[SanJ]

<P>I just hope the PVP element of the game doesn't drive all future development of professions.</P> <P>When PVP became a solid aspect of Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) the game development; mostly nerfs; where centered around profession A can beat profession B nearly if not every time EASILY because of skill X.   Next weeks update would include a nerf to skill X without consideration of how that skill was used outside of PVP.  Players that didn't indulge in PVP daily were often frustrated with the constant combat changes to "equalize" PVP play.  Perhaps the "arena" concept mentioned in the first expansion notes will help compensate.</P> <P>Additionally, the uber elite talk "sick/gross bragging" and childish mind-set of "I'm the baddest in the galaxy" was a bit overwhelming and quite annoying at times.  As quickly as SOE would modify one element to kill the flavor of the week skill combination that created "uberness," players that PVP'd almost exclusively would come up with another model that everyone would follow in an attempt to be the best that week.  I always chuckled to myself at the person screaming eliteness that had copied another players original model to the exact skill--how is that original?  At best that player was second best to the guy/gal that made the model.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong I enjoy PVP and frequently participated in SWG duels/raids, but I could see most role playing aspects, general respect of one another, etc. being diminished depending on the implemention in a D&D like game.  I recall many times waiting for the UI to load in SWG and having three or four tells waiting for me saying "let's duel."  I would accept a lot of times, but often times I'd planned to craft or help my guild so I'd simply decline the offer with an explanation.  Many times, the response would be .. "You chicken blankety blank blank blank ... you are afraid to duel me because I'm the best that ever lived." <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I hate to see that mindset enter EQ2, especially when I see players already arguing about who does the best AOE damage between tank classes.  Discussion to better the game experience for everyone is one thing, but flame wars and personal insults that derive from PVP encounters is another.  If you can outdamage my button mashing AOE barrage, then so be it and kudos for a strategic advantage over my profession in an area.   However, do you think that's going to impede upon my gameplay?</P> <P>Examples:</P> <P>Your AOE damage output is better --> ok you win<BR>I can heal quite nicely --> ok I win<BR>You can duel wield with actually two weapons equipped --> ok you win<BR>I can rez --> ok I win</P> <P>See where this going?  It's a no win situation.  Both classes tank and dps well (today), if  you like something the other profession has and it's a deal breaker for you, by all means make an alt and partake in the love <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[Pilo]

How is PVP being implemented?  I agree, I hope it doesn't become a regular part of the game.  While there was PVP in EQ1, it wasn't anywhere near more than a sideshow.  I saw it used more for quick trips to the bank/etc during raids than actually bragging rights.  Because it wasn't more than a sideshow, the devs didn't bother to balance it all that well until much later.  There were PVP servers, but for the most part the people from them had a reputation for acting like children.  Maybe it is the learning curve of the game (it is still pretty new) but I've noticed a lower amount of maturity in EQ2 than EQ1 already.  But again, that's probably because I'm not playing with people that have been playing it for half a decade like in EQ1.  A strong PVP element in the game would stunt the growth of the community. <div></div>

[Azakiel]

<DIV>Great reply SanJun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have raised many issues that I did not even think PVP may introduce into the game. I love playing my pally (and I'm sure the other classes love playing their classes as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) I would be very, very upset if any of the abilities I rely on soooooo strongly to be able to solo, MT, OT and complete CONTENT in the game get nerfed to balance PVP!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets hope the DEVS keep focused on the game and it's content and keep PVP a (hopefully) fun and entertaining sideline.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whack Anything</DIV> <DIV>46 Pally</DIV> <DIV>Neriak</DIV>

[jshari]

Actually the devs did say that Pvp would not effect us in any way. IF there is balencing that needs to be done, it will only take place in PvP. So if they need to nerf, lets say our lay on hands or somthing, the nerf would only apply when we PvP. Idont remember where the post was, but i am 100% its trueI am sure you can find the info if you search or take a look in the PvP forums.

[Poochymama]

I dont get were you are getting these numbers from Doom judgement only does 583 at adept 3 Ancient Wrath does 139-170, Decree does 214-262 at app 4, and holy symbol does 116-193 at adept 1. My guess is the Berserker's in your guild were not really using their AOE's and thats why you outdmged them. Thats a total of 1208 dmg per guy if you do the max that you could possibly do. Say there is 5 guys you will do 6040 dmg with these AOE's. Rampage alone would out dmg all of those combined, and yes im talking about the one post nerf. The post nerf rampage does a max of 220 dmg every time you hit the mob for like 15 sec ( It sais 36 sec but drops in about 15 sec) Now lets say you the MOB 15 times in those 15 sec which is not hard to do considering thats only 1 hit per sec, you will do 3300 dmg per guy with rampage alone. Since there are 5 guys that comes out to 16,500 dmg with just using rampage compared to 6040 dmg with all your skills. Now lets take a look at bloodrage lets say it procs 8 times which very easily happens on AOE encounters Blood rage max is 134 dmg  so 134x8=1072 dmg per mob and there are 5 mobs so that comes out to 5360 dmg on 5 targets that comes out to a total of 21,860 dmg with two skills I dont think i need to tell you about the other 5 berserker AOE's do I you can already see my point. Personally I think it is the way it should be I think Berserker's should do more dmg than Paladins because Paladins have more Utility and can heal, and tank better after the combat changes come in.  6040/21,860 with 2 skills. LOUD NOISES!!!!

[StormQueen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SanJun wrote:<BR> <P>Your AOE damage output is better --> ok you win<BR>I can heal quite nicely --> ok I win<BR>You can duel wield with actually two weapons equipped --> ok you win<BR>I can rez --> ok I win</P> <P>See where this going?  It's a no win situation.  Both classes tank and dps well (today), if  you like something the other profession has and it's a deal breaker for you, by all means make an alt and partake in the love <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thanks Kalen for saying what I was thinking before I had to post it myself.  There is something wrong with people if they can't respect others. And this game is supposed to be FUN, not a chore or a sea of namecallers and haters.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[SanJ]

<P>I spent quite a bit of time over this past weekend with several level 50 tank classes comparing some skills, combat tactics, etc. and it was a very pleasant experience.  I learned a lot about some of the other tank classes I didn't previously understand that well. </P> <P>Everyone was extremely polite and I think everyone left the table with a better sense of understanding regarding pros and cons of each profession.  I see so many areas once again where the individual player can greatly dictate and offset weakness in skills/spells based on tactics, planning and strategy.  As each of us learn more and more about our fellow player professions, it will just serve to make stronger and more efficient groups.</P> <P>I wouldn't have issues MT'ing or OT'ing with any other fighter/tank profession.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen<BR></P>

[coochic]

Pooch go to your own class forum.

[Titali]

he seems to know what hes talking about for the most part, i dont see what the problem is.

[Mie]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Red Sox Suck wrote:<BR> <DIV>wrong, Pallys will not outdamage a Zaerker when it comes to AOE.  Zerkers have Rampage (which yes is nerfed but still does significant damage, only complaint with zerkers is that it is still on 1 hour timer), Berseker Assault, Destructive Rage, Wallop, Salughter, and stunning roar.  all which do major damage.  I am not a Paladin hater, I could care less what classes people are I just play for fun.  But thats just how it is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What the [Removed for Content] ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Destructive Rage is a buff.  Not a single damage at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wallop  - AE 35 points of damage is what you call major damage ?. ( apt1 , i don't see apt3 or Master 1 will let you hit 100+ )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slaughter - this is more stupid, ultra long cast time. 10 sec ? This is a joke</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berseker Assault - this is more like "major damage" but hit 2 mob only. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't misleading other players please. This is not funny.</DIV>

[Mithru]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Mielx wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Red Sox Suck wrote: <div>wrong, Pallys will not outdamage a Zaerker when it comes to AOE.  Zerkers have Rampage (which yes is nerfed but still does significant damage, only complaint with zerkers is that it is still on 1 hour timer), Berseker Assault, Destructive Rage, Wallop, Salughter, and stunning roar.  all which do major damage.  I am not a Paladin hater, I could care less what classes people are I just play for fun.  But thats just how it is. </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>What the [Removed for Content] ?</div> <div> </div> <div>Destructive Rage is a buff.  Not a single damage at all.</div> <div> </div> <div>Wallop  - AE 35 points of damage is what you call major damage ?. ( apt1 , i don't see apt3 or Master 1 will let you hit 100+ )</div> <div> </div> <div>Slaughter - this is more stupid, ultra long cast time. 10 sec ? This is a joke</div> <div> </div> <div>Berseker Assault - this is more like "major damage" but hit 2 mob only. </div> <div> </div> <div>Don't misleading other players please. This is not funny.</div><hr></blockquote> Wallop hits for an average of about 200 (min of 30, max of 400), is fast, and hits epics. There is also Blood Rage, which is perhaps what he meant there. This will proc an average of about five times for it's duration on it's own and is more likely to go off with use of combat arts. A Stunning Roar + Blood Rage proc looks almost like a wizard ae nuke. </span><div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class=date_text>06-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 AM</span>

[jshari]

Well i just made a healer on the test server, and it owned all the other classes. First i fought a mage, it was easy but my life was drianed next i fought a fighter class, murder, didnt even get to half mana after that i fought healer same lvl, luckly i was smarter and had a 2hr so i won but it was close after all that I fought a scout, it was fun cuz he moved around but i killed him also So right now fighter classes i beleive are at the lowend of the PvP So i dont know how us pallys will do but becouse of out heals i say well at least be on the high end of the fighter class <div></div>

[Rian18]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jshariat wrote:<BR>Well i just made a healer on the test server, and it owned all the other classes.<BR><BR>First i fought a mage, it was easy but my life was drianed<BR><BR>next i fought a fighter class, murder, didnt even get to half mana<BR><BR>after that i fought healer same lvl, luckly i was smarter and had a 2hr so i won but it was close<BR><BR>after all that I fought a scout, it was fun cuz he moved around but i killed him also<BR><BR>So right now fighter classes i beleive are at the lowend of the PvP<BR><BR>So i dont know how us pallys will do but becouse of out heals i say well at least be on the high end of the fighter class<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No offense man, but Dueling at lvl 8 or 9 is no indication of how its going to be.</P> <P>I mean you don't even have 95% of your skill set yet.  Your not even in your final class yet.</P> <P>I've been dueling a ton on test.  Mainly in the higher 30's low 40's range.</P> <P>If I had to list top classes its:</P> <P>1. Fury</P> <P>2. Monk</P> <P>3. Ranger</P> <P>4. Zerker</P> <P>5. Dirges</P> <P>Those 4 really stand out over all.  Fury's are just very very mean.  They can heal, nuke and put up a killer damage shield.</P> <P>Monk's have a million and one stifles, an instant cast heal and super high avoidance.</P> <P>Rangers have enough Archery Ca's where they can unload enough damage to outright Kill most casters and can Kite around Melee for hours.  I'm a Ranger and will be the first to say that kiting in pvp has to be fixed.  The other day at 38 I took down a lvl 44 Zerker with him never taking me below 85% health via kiting.</P> <P>Dirges are very nasty, combo of debuff's, ability to kite, dots.  An all around deadly class.</P> <P>Paladins are good.  Problems I've noticed is your heals just seem to  burn too much power.  Every pally i've dueled has complained of the same thing, if they focus on healing they don't do enough dps and if they unload dps CA's they burn through power to fast and it really limits their healing ability.  So normally you will get stuck with trying to either outlast or kill fast your opponent.</P> <P>Nial Bladestorm</P> <p>Message Edited by Rian18 on <span class=date_text>06-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>

[jshari]

lol no offence but i said it was just an estamate at very low lvl..? But you i think you list is correct, BTW any1 have [Removed for Content] of a paladin dueling? <div></div>

[AlleySpa]

<P>Since day one i've argued our arts drain too much power.  Right now what set's us apart from the other Tank classes is our ability to heal/ward, monks have superior DPS and avoidance, Guardians have the best defense overall, Zerkers great defense and offense, We have great heals and wards but using both drains over 300 power not counting using combat arts, i noticed the major difference while running some wriths and soloing blue up arrowed giants, monks rarely get hit, guards can eat the damage and still not get hit as often, zerkers also don't get hit as often while still being able to take and deal damage.  While all four classes can solo these mobs you'll notice a significant difference in power with us at the bottom of the list. </P> <P>Don't get me wrong i'll nvr pick a different class over my pallie I just don't see why we have to drain ourselves so much just to be in the same leagus as the others.  The only benefit we have over the other classes is our versatility but it's usually overlooked by other classes who either aern't use to grouping with us or just won't give us a chance.</P>

[jshari]

<span><blockquote><hr>AlleySpade wrote:<p>Since day one i've argued our arts drain too much power.  Right now what set's us apart from the other Tank classes is our ability to heal/ward, monks have superior DPS and avoidance, Guardians have the best defense overall, Zerkers great defense and offense, We have great heals and wards but using both drains over 300 power not counting using combat arts, i noticed the major difference while running some wriths and soloing blue up arrowed giants, monks rarely get hit, guards can eat the damage and still not get hit as often, zerkers also don't get hit as often while still being able to take and deal damage.  While all four classes can solo these mobs you'll notice a significant difference in power with us at the bottom of the list. </p> <p>Don't get me wrong i'll nvr pick a different class over my pallie I just don't see why we have to drain ourselves so much just to be in the same leagus as the others.  The only benefit we have over the other classes is our versatility but it's usually overlooked by other classes who either aern't use to grouping with us or just won't give us a chance. </p><hr></blockquote></span> <p>Amen, hehe ive noticed that also our mana needs an  increase, but i think it might when WIS starts making a diffreence. but im not sure. We do ok if all we do is ward and heal, lol i was the tank and healer in my group the other day we did very good. took white 2 uparrow mobs fast and easy they were all mage types. Yet the only reason that was possible was becouse they pumped me with mana. </p> <div></div>

[Rellikd]

Well then that definitly needs to be fixed. Although maybe if paladins wore more +power gear it would help balance it? I havent dueled yet in eq2 yet but in solo I can already see that my paladin is being drained by his most vital spells. We use the spells that cost the most mana the most. <div></div>

[Titali]

<DIV>only thing i have a issue with is our wards and maybe a few offensive skills. the taunts are cheap, tho less than effective and our heals are the most mana efficient direct heals in the game (tho they heal for less).</DIV>

[DUNN]

I would really like to see a ranger try to kite a Knight. I can just see a ranger running away from me and my pet pet while dreadfull wrath is slowing him down plus the little ac debuff.  I think it would be fun to see who wins.

[Bron]

I've had the good fortune to help test some new content on test with my main level 50 SK.  So far, Paladins are very solid duelers.  I've dueled a few with varying qualities of equipment, and they've always put up a decent fight.  I've yet to lose to a Paladin (or any class for that matter), however my gear has always been a bit better, and I like to consider myself a pretty good player.  I think a fight between an equally geared/skilled pally/SK would be very very close. Healers with mana regen gear (though this is getting nerfed) may have been the biggest challenge.  If a healer has 3 or more mana regen items I'd typically be forced to use harm touch to finish them off. <div></div>

[Reposa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bronto wrote:I've had the good fortune to help test some new content on test with my main level 50 SK.  So far, Paladins are very solid duelers.  I've dueled a few with varying qualities of equipment, and they've always put up a decent fight.  I've yet to lose to a Paladin <b>(or any class for that matter)</b>, however my gear has always been a bit better, and I like to consider myself a pretty good player.  I think a fight between an equally geared/skilled pally/SK would be very very close. Healers with mana regen gear (though this is getting nerfed) may have been the biggest challenge.  If a healer has 3 or more mana regen items I'd typically be forced to use harm touch to finish them off. <div></div><hr></blockquote>LIES! I took you down rather quickly on one occasion.. /laugh Give me 15 minutes of Devistation Fist on Live and I'll be a life-long SOE fanboy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[yzyh]

What is it mather ? In PvP the winner is always the attacker.

[jshari]

Thats not always true, i have a Preist on Test and people always challange me, most attack me first but i akways win. =), havnt lost yet =) <div></div>