Question about raiding

[Narfism]

<DIV>My guild just recently started raiding on a semi fixed schedule.  But as I see from my time spent raiding, it seems that pallies are reduced to mediocre healers, rez [Removed for Content] and sideline watchers.  My question is, is there/will there be instances where I will have my day in the spotlight or do guardians dominate the role the whole way through.  I know that when I started playing I was under the impression that we would all get to tank in our own ways.  Now what this meant to me was that at the end of an encounter, the healers would finish with the same amount of power no matter who it was that tanks.  If this is what it was supposed to be like, then what happened?  Did SOE just fail miserably in their attempt to make this true or am I just missing something?  I am hoping that it is the latter.  Should I expect the combat changes to help this problem or will I just be put further in the hole?  Any input would be appreciated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lotharin</DIV> <DIV>50 Paladin</DIV>

[Titali]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Narfism wrote:<BR> <DIV>My guild just recently started raiding on a semi fixed schedule.  But as I see from my time spent raiding, it seems that pallies are reduced to mediocre healers, rez [Removed for Content] and sideline watchers.  My question is, is there/will there be instances where I will have my day in the spotlight or do guardians dominate the role the whole way through.  I know that when I started playing I was under the impression that we would all get to tank in our own ways.  Now what this meant to me was that at the end of an encounter, the healers would finish with the same amount of power no matter who it was that tanks.  If this is what it was supposed to be like, then what happened?  <FONT color=#66ff33>Did SOE just fail miserably in their attempt to make this true</FONT> or am I just missing something?  I am hoping that it is the latter.  Should I expect the combat changes to help this problem or will I just be put further in the hole?  Any input would be appreciated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lotharin</DIV> <DIV>50 Paladin</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>basically, yes</DIV>

[Roble]

<P>The Paladin is one of the Best raiding classes.  We have awesome buffs for the main tank, and we can tank if needed.  As for DPS....  we own most others.  So hang in there becuase Paladins are an awesome rid class.  We also have the best ressurect in game.   I am always in the top DPS of my guild, and everyone is a top level player in great gear.  As for the top 10 DPS in guild of all time.. I hold like 6 or 7 of the top places, and another paladin holds another spot.  The other spots are a monk/bruiser.</P> <P> </P> <P>Below is a pic of a DPS Parse on a raid.</P> <P>Valur , Ohktar, Mazzoff, and Akan are all Paladins.  So as you can see, Paladins rock.  And this is the norm for raids, paladins usually are at the top.</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/691/055.jpg"></P> <p>Message Edited by RobleeS on <span class=date_text>05-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:31 PM</span>

[Korpo]

Which parser are you using there? I'm not that impressed with CombatStats. <div></div>

[Roble]

We have a guild parser.... I did not parse it.

[Xentin]

<DIV>For me i am mostly dps and rez [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I dont get to tank often because we have 3 guardians in my guild but when its needed I can tank most x4 mobs with the right healers. Our defense buffs on the other hand suck and are going to suck even more after LU9.  After LU9 we will be losing the effect to buff their tower shield skill and thats what we have over the other classes buff. The only time i defense for our main tank is when none of our SKs or Bruisers are on. As for the DPS the only people who usually out DPS me are the bruisers, warlocks, and occasionally the conjuror when it comes to a raid like Zek.</DIV>

[SanJ]

<P>I'm very interested in the formula used for DPS by individuals participating in HO opportunities.  I have yet to see a good parser show player A did x damage, player B did y damage, player C did z damage and the HO bonus damage was </P> <P>- split evenly?<BR>- completely rewarded to the scout that started the HO?<BR>- completed rewarded to the last person to complete the HO combat wheel?<BR>- not calculated at all?<BR>- etc.<BR><BR>Like Valur, I do not run my own parsing tools, but have been part of groups where a player constantly drops DPS information post combat in group chat.  I honestly do not recall a single encounter where I parsed below 3rd in a 6 person group even while MT'ing unless part of a raid where I rarely attacked and only managed aggro.  When OT'ing I was 1 or 2 almost always and when MT'ing 2 or 3 (small to full groups--non raid).<BR><BR>Although I'm at 49, I have not participated in a lot of end-game raid content yet, but have definitely noticed the issue of mana consumption during long encounters for aggro management vs. several other tank-class professions.  I can hold aggro and if desired "steal" aggro through our hate management tools, but it's a definite cost to our mana pool.</P> <P>My personal observation between a Guardian tanking and a Paladin tanking epic mobs is that both can manage well, but that Paladins have to burn twice the mana to accomplish the same feat.  I don't feel this is acceptable for high end content where raid encounters last for extended periods of time.</P> <P>Another personal observation is the hate generated by a bow/arrow pull.  It's extremely difficult at times to gain aggro against a party member (even other tank class) that hits with a bow/arrow combination on a pull.  I know this isn't the desired method with two tanks battling for aggro management, but the concept is that Paladins are not able to use a bow/arrow while most others are (I know run to McDonalds and get myself a Whaaaaa burger to go with my french CRIES <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but I have also noted that a lot of tanks pull with a bow/arrow combination and start aggro management as mobs are incoming.   This doesn't mean I want a bow/arrow combination but the ability to increase or maintain our current aggro skills at the cost of the same mana as other tank classes.</P> <P>Nothing is more frustrating then having a scout shoot a bow one time only to pull a mob (for whatever reason) and burning all your taunts, all your wards, all your buffs and a heal -- rinse and repeat 2 more times and still never regain aggro.  I know you can regain aggro in most cases, but look at your mana--half or two thirds gone.  Certainly coordinated group tactics will overcome a lot of our shortcomings -- I have held aggro very well on epic mobs even when other tank classes throw in the occasional taunt or ward because we are usually coordinated well.  However, extended battles = low to no Paladin mana for continued aggro managment while similar tank classes can accomplish the same feat using half the mana.</P> <P>I'm not taking into consideration mage and other class "breeze-like" spells where our mana pool seems never ending.  I'm talking about pound per pound aggro management.  Our mana cost is too high in the long run to maintain long-term aggro during a raid unless you have a uber group of buddies that all know your strengths and weaknesses that can compensate in whatever form to overcome.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[Narfism]

<P>As long as you have a high dps/aggro player in your group, many times I have found that I can hold aggro just fine.  Redemption at adept 3 really helps out a lot.  The problem that I see with the current end game system is that, while we can do many things, we aren't able to do our primary purpose for making a paladin.  I don't know about you but when I saw that we would tank pretty much the same, I thought that at the end of the fight, healers would be at the same amount of power consumption for the raid no matter who they allow to tank.  From what I have seen, they have failed miserably.  So what I was thinking was, perhaps our self buffs could use a little tweaking to get the desired result.</P> <P>Blessing of the Penitent and Blessing of the Devout are both self buffs that add hp and a chance to proc an essense.  My idea is, while leaving the spell intact as it currently is, but add a mitigation buff of some kind.  Perhaps a straight percentage of 10-15% or a straight amount of 300 by the time the spell grey's out.  I don't know how feasable this idea is but it might help to close the tanking gap so that we might not have to take the bench.  Yes, we may be able to tank raid mobs as we are now, but we are so much less efficient at it that guilds don't find it worthwhile.  Why do something where there is a higher chance to lose the tank when you have a perfectly viable tank that requires so little work compared to the others.  It just doesn't make sense.  Now I am not trying to step on anyone's toes but I know when I signed up to be a paladin, I signed up to be a tank.</P> <P>We don't want to forget guardians when it comes to raids, we just want to be as efficient as them.  With the known dps nerfs inc, we will soon be losing our dps due to nerfs that are incoming.  When that happens, we will pretty much be reduced to rez [Removed for Content] and mediocre healer.  What is the point of a paladin in a raid if this happens.  Priests can cover those slots more effectively and efficiently.  </P> <P>Now guardians may complain that it can't happen because they don't have a secondary purpose/role to fulfill.  This may be true at the moment, but I know for a fact that there are many abilities that can be fixed to make them very good at giving out avoidance or mitigation to others, they just aren't very viable at the moment.  If they don't want to have those fixed, give them something else to do in raids, hell give them anything that is going to make the wanted in raids.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lotharin Dashaus</P> <P>Najena 50 Paladin</P>

[Garlicyesterday]

<DIV>As doing good dps , yeah were not bad , using my 2h prismatic weap , i do lEEt dps ) still hoping to find a kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] 1h weap with low delay though to use kite shield of king but for now 2h pris rocks...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our buffs to the MT , true we got good ones , but pallies are usually not welcomed in MT groups , since bersk , bruiser , bard can add better buffs then us in raid situation , thats been tested...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for tanking in raids , can off tank well yes , ive tanked groupx2 easy without loosing aggro really or lost for 2sec or so , as for stats , dont really know since my guild is sure that pally sucks , except at rez incombat , so i havent got fully buffed yet , not bad equiped though , i got 5747hp , 2800mit , 60% avoid , thats self buff so ...it aint that bad</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR>Which parser are you using there? I'm not that impressed with CombatStats.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That's combatstats.  AFAIK its the only one you can display damage done in tells after the fight.  Its not very accurate though in a lot of scenarios.</DIV>

[Korpo]

Yeah, CombatStats is the one I use, and it seems to be inaccurate in some cases, so I was hoping there was something with better that still had the ability to spam the group after the fight, but I guess not. <div></div>

[RSta]

<div></div>Whenever I read one of these threads I have to wonder what people were thinking when they rolled their toon.  Everyone that looked at the manual, watched the videos, checked the websites should have known that if you want to be the guy to stand in the front and be a meatshield to go Guardian, that's the job, the name spells it out, the Tower Shield is big to stand behind when the dragons flame you.  If you consider the MT being the hero/center of attention play the Guardian. For me the Paladin is the QB, he stands back keeps on eye on what is going on, steps in and nudges the others the right way, let someone know to back off if they are pulling too much. <div></div><p>Message Edited by RStahl on <span class=date_text>05-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:25 AM</span>

[Poochymama]

<DIV>As for berserker's being able to buff up the guardian more than a Paladin you are right they can. But this is only because of a glitch in the game that allows all of their buffs from the previous tier to stack with their newest ones. This gives them like 4 250pt health buffs that stack. This will probobly get changed eventually and then all berserker's will be able to add is group haste and 250pts of health. As for dps the top dps classes on raids right now seem to be wizard/warlock, monk/bruiser, paladin,/shadownight, zerker, conjurer on multiple mobs, and assasaign's seem to be able to post very high numbers. Ive seen some zerkers post well over 400 sustainded dps but this is only because of the Royal Great Flail. Any class that has that weapon will have their dps significantly increased.LOUD NOISES!!!!!</DIV>

[PurpleHazeOnDe]

everysingle post u made is berzerker this berzerker that we are not even talking about berzerker