Tanking --- who to target first???

[Narsikus]

<DIV>I'm a lvl 31 Pally, my question is who should I target first in a grouped mob?  The strongest mob?  Or the weaker ones first saving the strongest for last?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's take an example mob:  1 lvl 30^^ with 4 lvl 29 regulars.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Up to this point in my tanking, I've been targeting the lvl 30 heroic encounter mob first and having my groupmates assist me.  Our group hits the 30^^ with everything we got, while I focus on maintaining aggro from the entire mob.  It's a clear battle plan, the group understands it, we nail the big guy first and relax the rest of the battle, so to say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This strategy has worked very well through all of my grouped encounters so far.  But as I arrived to Zek and EL, I've been a lower level toon, so I've been AT most of the time.  What I've noticed is that half of the higher level MTs tell the group to target the lower level mobs first.   So, taking the example above, the MT would target the 4 lvl 29s in succession until they were all dead, then move on to the lvl 30^^.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was the AT for a couple of encounters like this, and it seemed very confusing.  It seemed noone knew exactly who to target of the lower level mobs, the wizzy after slinging some ice spikes took aggro off the lvl 30^^ and I spent all my time trying to get it off, etc.  We have ultimately won the encounters, but it sure didn't seem smooth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From my experience, I plan to stick with my current style.  It seems to be more effective, and it seems that's what I've read is the way to properly tank.  But with the number of times I've seen it done differently, I'd like to look further into it and hear more information.  I'm willing to adapt a different battle plan, if it's the right one.  Or are both of these strategy's the correct one in different situations???  In other words, is it mob specific as to who to target first?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Narsikus</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 31 Pally</DIV> <DIV>Oggok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Narfism]

Personally, I do the opposite.  My logic behind it is simple.  If you kill the mobs with the least amount of hp first, then you are eliminating potential dps on the tank.  Even though they may be not as powerful, the dps from all the adds will tend to add up.

[MeridianR]

<DIV>Normally the best way to do it (notice I say normally, as there are exceptions) is mez the named, and take out the adds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like the above poster stated, you can eliminate the DPS from the adds (mainly more prominant when the adds are ^^) and then focus on the named. </DIV>

[Harovan]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>In most cases kill the minions first. By the way, they are usually the same level as the boss, just without arrows or even with v or vv. The logic behind this is simple. The main meaning of the arrows up is, that this mob is a group mob, i.e. designed not for one player of the given level, but for a group of 3-6 players of that level. This means, a level 30^^ mob is still a level 30 mob, it hits just as hard as a level 30 mob and the main thing, where it differs from other level 30 mobs is, that it has <u>much</u> more HPs. Actually, it may have some special attacks, but their number is usually very limited and take place only as long as the mob has power, anyway. So if you fight a group of one level 30^^ boss with two level 30 minions, at begin of battle three level 30 mobs are pounding your tank. If you take on the boss first, you will need a considerable amount of time for it due to the many HP it has. During all of this time your tank is attacked by 3 level 30 mobs, draining a lot of power from your healer. Now let's assume you kill one minion first instead. A mob without arrows is a solo mob and it will go down very quick if the DPS of a whole group hits it. After it's gone, your tank is only attacked by 2 level 30 mobs. Take out the other minion, which goes equally fast, and there is only one mob left to pummel your tank. Now take the long fight against the lonely boss with much less drain of healer power. Actually, this is a rule of thumb, and there are exceptions. If the boss is <u>very</u> tough (like orange^^ or red^^) and you don't have much dps in your group (no scouts and nukers), but an extra healer or even two, it can be wiser to attack the boss first. With this constellation, healer power is not an issue, the DPS needed to kill the boss however is. If you waste power on the minions first (which will be orange or red as well), your damage dealers may not have the power left to kill off the boss. I have seen quite some groups falter with the boss being beaten in the orange or even red, but the whole group is out of power and doomed to either run (if still possible) or die. A very sad situation, if the boss is a long camped quest mob. If you attack the boss first, you will quickly see if you can do it or not, and have a chance to run, and then to regroup and retry. If it's a quest boss, you also have the option to break the encounter and run as soon as you killed the boss and everyone got the quest update. Use your brain. Although the first case is much more common, keep in mind, that there are no rules set in stone. The second case is rare, but happens. It's a bad group setup and you are probably responsible yourself if it does, but that makes it no less bitter. <p>Message Edited by Harovan on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Jgok]

<P>My groups also concentrate on taking down the adds first, in a normal situation. You can typically tell by the mob names what class they are, so we'll target healers first, then nukers, then scouts, then tanks. A good rule to have is for group members to either keep a "main assist" targeted for taking down mobs, leaving the tank free to switch targets and concentrate on aggro generation. Being that I normally group with RL friends, planning out encounters is easy for us.</P> <P>The biggest statement above, though, is regarding having 3+ mobs beating on your tank and draining healing power. Each mob you remove from the equation is one less mob smacking your tank around, and the smaller mobs can be removed much faster than the named or ^^ mob.</P>

[Paintball33]

<P>i always make up my mind after i see the encounter. I will ALMOST ALWAYS attack the minions first, and to avoid confusion u just have everyone target the tank, and then whoever the tank targets is who the others will target. Remember, if you have a tank targeted and ur tank targets a mob, then when u attack u attack the mob, but if u heal or buff it goes to the tank. </P> <P>There are times where u'll want to take down that named mob first though. these time are usually the ones stated above, but also one key time u might wanna consider it, though not always do it, is when the named has MANA DRAINING or lots of AOE attacks. These can cause trouble. Really, it all depends on ur group and the mob ur facing.</P>

[Boli32]

<div></div><p><font face="Verdana">I like to run with a method that sometimes has my group members shouting at me... but it works very well and I'm least likely to loose agro, but it only works if everyone is assisting you so you can direct the attacks.- HOs taunt and pull main mob- Survive first barrage of spells, making sure my target is still the main mob so I get the full shield bonuses.- If possible fire off AoE nukes (depending on environment)then comes the swap, after the initial barrage of attack is over switch the group attention to one of the other mobs… few seconds and he goes down - switch back to main mob throw an other taunts at him. Then rinse and repeat until all you are left with only the main mob still fuming at you.</font></p><font face="Verdana"><span>If I do loose an agro is would be one of the smaller mobs and you can bring him down very quickly. I always try and keep my front to the main mob and regular taunts on him… after all he’s the main threat.</span></font>

[Korpo]

Always take the wimps first, as they not only do damage to the tank (me!) but they can interrupt my attacks, heals, taunts, whatever. In a group, I always go for necro/conjurors mobs first, to kill them and their pet, two for the price of one. Then other mages, as they generally have low hp and high damage. Next are any healer types, then the fighter types. The ^^ is always last though, whatever type it is.

[Paintball33]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korpo53 wrote:<BR> I always go for necro/conjurors mobs first, to and their pet, two for the price of one. Then other mages, as they generally have low hp and high damage. Next are any healer types, then the fighter types. The ^^ is always last though, whatever type it is. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>going for enemies that have pets first is a good idea, and a good thing to point out. I do disagree though w/ taking out high dmg mages second, cuz i think u should kill any healers before that. Then go for the mages. But really it's watever works for u, that's just my preferance.</P>

[Narsikus]

I wanted to thank everyone for the input.  After reading the above, it's basically a unanimous decision on targeting small minions first.  Having said that, I've applied this tactic today and yesterday in my fighting.  I must say, I've had much smoother encounters with much less health loss compared to before.  Again, thanks to all for the very detailed information!  Consider me a reformed tank. <div></div>

[Korpo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paintball3325 wrote:<BR> <P>going for enemies that have pets first is a good idea, and a good thing to point out. I do disagree though w/ taking out high dmg mages second, cuz i think u should kill any healers before that. Then go for the mages. But really it's watever works for u, that's just my preferance.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, it's a tough call. My thinking is that if you are taking out the mage, the worst thing a healer can do is heal the mage. End result... it takes longer to kill the mage, but keep in mind that the mage is getting interrupted, stunned, whatever during this time, and not really doing much damage. If you're taking out the healer, then the healer is healing himself, it takes longer, and the mage is nuking you as fast as he can while you're doing it. There's also the side benefit that a lot of mage type mobs have stuns, roots, mezes, etc. Those can be murder on a tank.</P> <P>Really, it doesn't matter all that much on a daily basis, but when you get to higher levels and you start having things cast Nil Distortion or Ice Comet on you, hitting for crazy amounts of damage, that mage is your worst enemy.</P>

[Korza]

<P>The mob order can also depend on the healer type you have in your group.  For example a templar has heal debuff they cast on a mob so when the mob dies the whole group gets healed for anywhere from 150-300 or more of damage for the simple cost of the debuff cast. This by far is the best mana to heal ratio spell in the game. Even beating the paladin heal out on that. But the buff doesn't go off till the mob dies. So by targeting the lower mobs first and templar doing thier job of debuff with this spell the whole group gets healed when the mob goes down. It is the ultimate in power saving for a templar. And can save alot of power with mobs that AOE damage groups. Now some templars don't use this spell alot but they have it. Alot opt out for the soothing sermon which heals who ever takes damage in a group but that is really a bad power to heal ratio and is really for lazy healers. It has it uses when you know for example alot of aoe is coming but other then that really shouldn't be used as much as I have seen it used.</P> <P>Some points to make in your group before you start to kill. Make sure you have a MA ( this can be the MT but doesn't have to be ) everyone should keep thier focus on the MA. Alot of people get thier targets from the MA then click on the targets and no longer have the MA targeted. Most of these folks don't know about cast through. Educate them on it. </P> <P>Basics of cast through. If it is a benifit to a party member then the party member you have targeted ( MA ) will get the benifit. If it is a negative effect then mob the party member  (MA ) has targeted will get hit. There is no reason that a person regardless of class has to target the mob and not the MA. With the only execption being a healer if they need to heal someone else or a pet/mezz class when they need to handle adds or break up a group. You would be amazed at the amount of people that don't know this simple thing. And many of them post 30.</P> <DIV>A tactical point on cast through. A big mistake alot of people make ( mainly healers but some casters ) if they get aggro is to target themselves when they get hit by the mob. This means that in a dense pack of mobs you might not beable to tell which mob is hitting them, this can make it tough if not impossible to get the mob off them. The simple thing they need to learn to do is hit esc key. This clears thier target and the first mob that hits them will get auto targeted. This allows the person getting beat on to then use cast thorugh to fix themselves as well as let others in thier group know what is hiiting them. Others can then target the person that shouldn't have aggro to see what is hitting them and proceed to beat it to a bloody pulp or taunt it off them.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SanJ]

<P>I'd like to offer a few other tidbits for thought.</P> <P>1. I almost always take out the no arrow mobs first for two very important reasons.  One of which has been listed previously by almost every post--remove total incoming dps as fast as possible.  The second point, less stressed by other posts is most group mobs containing a double up, 1 or 2 one arrow and no arrow minions as I call them, tend to HEAL the one up and two up mobs.  Nothing is more frustrating then taking a double up into the deep yellow early orange only to have some no arrow mob or two heal the tough one back to the green.</P> <P>2. If the mobs we are engaging are many and other mobs are not nearby (especially outside), I will often use an AOE attack to gain initial damage and aggro on everything--i.e. Doom Judgement.  Next, I jump into step 1 above and utilize our call to glory and prayer lines.  Shield bashing has the additional hate management so I utilize that as well.  Of course I'm taunting and HO'ing as often as possible.</P> <P>3. If we are taking on a high number of aggro mobs that will require an extended battle, I'll assign a MA (main assist).  I usually assign a friend that understands the concept well and targets mobs the way I target mobs.  Next, I'll ask the group to target player X (our main assist) during this battle so I can switch through mobs and hold aggro throughout the duration of the battle.  I try to gain total mob aggro to start and then I switch to the MA to do my damage.  When taunts are available or I feel it necessary, I'll switch from the MA and cycle through mobs with taunts.  By the time the group gets to the next or middle mobs in the group, I should already have 4-5 taunts built up before the engagement.  This tactic, although used infrequently by most, is VERY effective.  The hardest part in my opinion, especially with pickup groups is getting them to understand they need to target a different player for this one encounter.  The healer needs to stick on the tank for heals, but all the dps gallery needs to focus on the MA to take out mobs fast.  I then have the freedom to ward a party member, taunt individually based on what I feel is most important, etc. plus I don't have to worry about leaving a mob and loosing precious time on dps while the rest of the group still has me selected.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P> <P> </P>