How good of a Healer?

[TimidMou]

<DIV>Is a paladin? I am currently playing a warden (druid subclass), but I heard from ppl that paladins can heal too. The question is this: if I were to group with a paladin, how much can I rely on his heals? Can he ever take of main healer responsibilities (say I go LD or have to go to the bathroom), if I am around, can I count on him to do secondary healer roles in addition to tanking? Or is his heals more of a backup healer role, good only for healing himself and occassionally teammates if my mana goes low?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(As an additional question, just curious: how well do paladins heal solo? Do they ever come to a point when they feel that solo, they wish they had a healer around? Can a paladins heals keep up with damage from say a 3-4 white con heroic group? I would assume with all that heavy armor a paladin would need very little healing but hey what do I know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[baaazz]

<DIV>As a lvl 41 pally our heals are definatly suited for the back up, back up role.  With the scenario u stated, 3-4 white heroic mob, most likely not we just can heal fast enough although we'd last for a bit, unless a caster is in the mob then were doomed. There are exceptions, i know ive had fights where i mess up get the healer killed and have to throw heals like crazy and barely make it through the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would always rather have a healer around just makes everything quicker specially soloing white solo cons and up, too much downtime there for my tastes.</DIV>

[Viglundr]

<P>at lvl 50, Pious Aid (Adept 3) direct heals for 711 health, using 158power.  5 second re-use timer.</P> <P>It's power hungry and will use up your power really quick</P> <P> </P>

[Karlen]

I'm 31 and I fill in as healer for small groups all the time.   I heal for a little over 400 per go, plus I have a 30 minute timer instant heal which I am not sure how much it does and a 5 minute timer self-heal. I use these in combination with my wards (Adept III DoF wards 284 but is being replaced by Faithful Zeal which at the moment wards a bit more for a lot more power). My Demonstration of Faith is Adept III and my Blessed Aid is as well. If I am main healer in the group, we are limited in what we can fight.   I can't keep up with massive damage, but between warding and healing, I can keep the tank alive a lot longer than he would be without me. I generally think of a Paladin as a half-healer, with two Paladins being pretty close to a full healer. As a backup healer, we are particularly useful.  I usually ward the main tank and then focus on keeping everyone else alive while the main healer keeps the tank alive. Generally speaking, I don't advertize myself as a healer, but when a group is formed and I am the only one that can heal, then that tends to be my role. Soloing, I don't heal very much.  If I require a great deal of healing, I am in trouble because if I am healing, I am not causing damage and sooner or later (more likely sooner) my power will run out.   I do tend to throw wards up, especially at the start of the battle. <div></div>

[Boli32]

A Paladin in practice only has ONE heal... sure we have a second on a 5min timer and a third on a 30min timer but for all intensive purposes we have ONE... and that is on a 5 second timer, and a 2 second cast. It isn't the power comsumption of such heals that kills the person you are healing - it is the fact you have to wait 7 seconds between each cast. If a group member takes more damage in 7 seconds than you can heal - that memeber is dead unless you are lucky enough to have your LoH line active - our 5min heal is ONLY a self heal. I'm not saying we cannot heal I'm just saying there is a LOT of limitations on us being full healers.I have played switch with a higher level warden and myself duoing, he tanked and I helped heal his wounds, compared to his self heals my 7 seconds +400 health was NOTHING I'm not saying we cannot heal - I know of many circumstances where I have healed just in time and allowed a group member / myself to survive just long enough for a fight , but we cannot heal regually and dependablly, a group with a Paladin as sole healer will find themselves limited to what they can fight - generally speaking this are large solo mobs and highly dependant on what the tank can take on his own. - if the tank can take lvl 31^^ you might be able to take lvl 33^^ in the group - if the tank finds himself being hit too much a Paladin just can't keep up with heals, even if you survive the downtime will be high and everyone including the Paladin woul have to mana-burn their way through their abilities. The rule of thmb thoug is if the tank takes more damage in 7 seconds than you can heal best get out of there ... quick - our heals are great sure but they are no substitute for even a half baked low level healer in the group. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>boli wrote: A Paladin in practice only has ONE heal... sure we have a second on a 5min timer and a third on a 30min timer but for all intensive purposes we have ONE... and that is on a 5 second timer, and a 2 second cast. It isn't the power comsumption of such heals that kills the person you are healing - it is the fact you have to wait 7 seconds between each cast. If a group member takes more damage in 7 seconds than you can heal - that memeber is dead unless you are lucky enough to have your LoH line active - our 5min heal is ONLY a self heal. I'm not saying we cannot heal I'm just saying there is a LOT of limitations on us being full healers.I have played switch with a higher level warden and myself duoing, he tanked and I helped heal his wounds, compared to his self heals my 7 seconds +400 health was NOTHING I'm not saying we cannot heal - I know of many circumstances where I have healed just in time and allowed a group member / myself to survive just long enough for a fight , but we cannot heal regually and dependablly, a group with a Paladin as sole healer will find themselves limited to what they can fight - generally speaking this are large solo mobs and highly dependant on what the tank can take on his own. - if the tank can take lvl 31^^ you might be able to take lvl 33^^ in the group - if the tank finds himself being hit too much a Paladin just can't keep up with heals, even if you survive the downtime will be high and everyone including the Paladin woul have to mana-burn their way through their abilities. The rule of thmb thoug is if the tank takes more damage in 7 seconds than you can heal best get out of there ... quick - our heals are great sure but they are no substitute for even a half baked low level healer in the group. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Good points, can we heal...of course we can. Can we heal as good as a Priest class 5-6 levels below us in a group, no. The reason being exactly what Boli said, we have 1 heal that we can count on for every fight, our Blessed Aid Line. Currently I have Devout Aid Adept 3 (mainly because Pios Aid, only heals for a little more, for more power, and Devout lasts for 14 levels) and I can heal for over 600 when I do heal. In a group where the MT has 4k+ HP, that 600 doesn't really do much when he is getting hit for 300 a pop every second. In a pinch we can play a second healer / OT / DPS hybrid, but the power consumption is a big deterent from doing that. At lower levels, yes it is possible, I will say that, but at 35+ I think it becomes a non issue.  Personally I use my heals when I duo more then when I am in a full group, and that is mainly to either increase my aggro, or to heal my healer when he uses his manastone.  In full groups, I will use my wards more then my heals, mainly for pulling. The reason I use my wards for pulling is because I don't like it when a Priest class goes half way out to the pull with you, since the % to get aggro becomes higher.  So i will ward myself, and then pull, which will either block the first couple hits, or at least take the brunt off of a caster, so I can get back to my group without dying <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Either way, like numerous people have stated, we are a jack of all trades, master of none currently...and when used correctly, or at the proper time our heals (while not all that powerful) can be the difference between a group wipe (because the tank dies) or getting away...</span><div></div>

[Titali]

<DIV>i dont take more than 1 healer into any single group situation and i never have any issues. majority of the time i am with my 48 templar guildmate. then again, i tend not to goup with shaman, call me biased.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div>i dont take more than 1 healer into any single group situation and i never have any issues. majority of the time i am with my 48 templar guildmate. then again, i tend not to goup with shaman, call me biased.</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah I am fine with 1 healer, if it is a Druid or Cleric....if it is a Shaman then I will make sure we have two healers...(Poor Mystics and Defilers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)    </span><div></div>

[tde]

<P>Mystic have a bad rap because most of them don't know how to play them. My son is a lvl 50 mystic and i a lvl 49 pally and i take him over any other type of healer anyday. But I wouldn't want to try play a mystic watching my son play his. He has 6 hotbar with all his spells that he use and he can time his spells to land just at the right time over and over, lol.</P> <P>We can take down green ^^^ fairly easy with just the 2 of us. </P> <P>I think it's not the mystic class that has the problem. It's the peeps play them. </P> <P> </P>

[Boli32]

<div></div>People say the same about us pallys some times - after the start where a lot of people joined the pally ranks just for the horsey (nag), it was a case where finding a paladin who knew his role and could play it effectively was like a needle in a whole bunch of needles. Every class is like that though, the more you understand the spells / abiltities / limitations the better you can play the class. Some classes are naturally harder to play than others, Paladfins, mystics are two of the hardest while guardian who could hold agro and tank without trying is one of the easiest. <div></div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>tdeak wrote:<p>Mystic have a bad rap because most of them don't know how to play them. My son is a lvl 50 mystic and i a lvl 49 pally and i take him over any other type of healer anyday. But I wouldn't want to try play a mystic watching my son play his. He has 6 hotbar with all his spells that he use and he can time his spells to land just at the right time over and over, lol.</p> <p>We can take down green ^^^ fairly easy with just the 2 of us. </p> <p>I think it's not the mystic class that has the problem. It's the peeps play them. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I have a guildie who I have grouped with that is a Mystic, and while I am fully confident in her abilities, the class is not up to par with the other healer classes.  Read there boards for more info, but there wards against higher end mobs, and named do not do the trick....So yes you can have a good Shaman who knows how to play there class, but have the same Druid or Cleric and you are able to do even more. I can easily take down white ^^ Heroics, and green/blue named with my Fury Guildie...but in a duo the best XP are lower end green heroics, since its not as much of a mana drain.</span><div></div>

[TimidMou]

I would like to thank everyone for the wonderful insight into the world of paladins and their healing abilities. As a low lvl healer, I had to say "wow" when I heard that some paladins can heal for 700+ hp, but then again its adept 3 and I have yet to get adept 3 heals so thats not a great comparison. I am very surprised to hear that some of you think that paladins are among the more challenging classes to play! I would have thought healing + heavy armor would make playing such a class trivial, at least thats how it is in many other games. But I hear about power consumption and I concede that that would be a major consideration. Heck even when soloing with my warden, I have to be careful about how much I want to heal otherwise I dont have enough power left to make the kill.

[jshari]

as every one has said we are very good healers but we cant last very long. our mana goes very fast. However usually i can pull it off. If we dont kill the mob we can at least excape.

[Rr]

I would just like to point out this, in the right situation we make great healers. At lvl 46 I was in a trio in PF. Myself, a lvl 48 Guardian, and a lvl 47 coercer. I played the role of DPS and healer. We made a ridiculous amount of experience and had no problems at all pulling the golems (I believe lvl 48 or 49 ^^) I made about 40% exp in two hours in one of those sessions. The group had pretty much decided that we would rather have a good paladin around instead of a healer. The right tactics can make all the difference I suppose. Rrin, 48 paladin Lope, 31 dirge <div></div>

[Hephaet]

<DIV>More often than not, i've found that paladin heals are the difference between winning and losing those long tough fights.  Sometimes though, you have to remind your group members that you have the ability to heal before an evac gets fired off. =P</DIV>

[Titali]

<DIV>i despise evac. i have actually booted scouts that prematurely evac. they get 1 chance with me, strike 2 and they're out. drives me freaking crazy lol.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div>i despise evac. i have actually booted scouts that prematurely evac. they get 1 chance with me, strike 2 and they're out. drives me freaking crazy lol.</div><hr></blockquote>Easiest thing to do is tell the Evac'rs (remember Shadowknights, and Wizards have evac also) not to Evac unless you tell them to. I created a macro that simply does a group say to evac...makes it much easier then just letting the people who have evac call it.</span><div></div>

[Titali]

<DIV>yea, i hear ya. i think wardens get it too. sometimes the whole group panics and that causes problems. people really underestimate themselves, maybe not, but should learn to play their class ;P</DIV>

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<P>Absolute honest answer: Paladins are not main line healers by ANY stretch of the imagination unless your group is fighting mobs that are not a real challenge. We have ONE targetable heal, ONE 'lay hands' heal every 30 minutes and one self only heal every 5 minutes. In an EMERGENCY we can dump our Lay hands heal, our nearly as good in size self heal and then spam our targetable heal but that will burn out our power very fast and in no way is that a save and viable way to sustain a group.</P> <P>Simply stated, REAL healers can do far more and better healing than any paladin (and RIGHTLY SO!) and allow a group to take on yellow+ con group mobs that no paladin couild ever keep up the healing for.</P> <P>Can we heal? Yes. Can we heal WELL, no. Can we dump a LOT Of healing in a short period? Only if that healing needs to be on ourselves and if our 'lay hands' is up, both. Can we heal others? Yes but not very well. It may save in a pinch, but it is not mainline healing and never should be for that matter.</P> <P>I think our healing power is exactly where it should be frankly, when compared to our tanking durability, our melee damage and our ability to buff and tank stank with other thanks in a group. Not too high and not so low as to be useless. Just enough to make a difference in a pinch but nowhere near what a real healer can do all the time.</P>

[SanJ]

<P>Our healing ability is nice, but it's certainly not designed to serve in the role of a group primary healer.  If you are able to join a group of six players and serve as the primary healer, you are NOT fighting hard enough mobs for return on XP/loot/etc.  If you are happy enough with minimal XP and just want to have fun, go for the gusto, but if you are working on difficult mobs that are appropriate challenge to a group of six (yellow and orange ^^) a Paladin past tier 3 isn't going to keep a MT alive very long with our 5 second heal.</P> <P>No one has mentioned the concept of main tanking and main healing at the same time.  This works well against easier mobs, until one or two interruptions when you're taking a beating and bam -- death or evac!  I duo a lot with a 44 Swashbuckler and we tend to duo on blue mobs to me, yellow to him double up.  I main tank and main heal myself working hard to avoid my LOH line or sacrement line even though I tend to tap into them often especially during multiple interrupts.</P> <P>A healer at the minimum level to get XP grouping with a Paladin at the top of the XP gap is still going to heal more total damage over time with likely less mana consumption.  My 17 cleric working towards druid already has a revive, 4 or 5 personal heals, including heals over time and entire party heals after mobs die.  I know comparing sub 20 to post 40 isn't a good comparison but you quickly see 1 heal that can be applied to anyone vs. 5 or more heals that can be applied to anyone by the healer class.</P> <P>Now don't get me wrong.  I think our heals rock.  As OT we don't get interrupted often, can toss in a heal to help a single healer group keep the tank in the green.  My rule of thumb is that I don't heal the MT until I see (judgement call) the MT dip into the low yellow or hit orange.  I often throw in a single heal to more or less help the healer play catchup from a mob on PCP <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Evac is still a problem on an uninformed group as most don't know we have a 1K+ personal sacrement heal when things get tight, regular healing and the LOH as a last result.  </P> <P>Overall, I think our total healing power is exactly where it needs to be considering our ability to tank well.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[Titali]

<DIV>get 5 sorcs and you can be the only healer in group ;D good times, good times.</DIV>

[SanJ]

<DIV>I wouldn't advise it, but would be crazy enough to try it --- once -- just once <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Been thinking of possible scenerios:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A single ^^ mob the Paladin has aggroed = mob dies fast due to so much mage-class dps, but likewise the Paladin takes an uber beating possibly dying since single heals are spaced so far apart and interruptions = faster death.  Perhaps the mage-class could mez when you are at half health or near death so you could back up and heal yourself to full power then reengage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A group of 4-6 high-level mobs the Paladin has aggroed = good luck healing yourself even once or twice with the interruptions almost every cast.  LOH might get your through the encounter, but with 15-30 minutes downtime on LOH = no real extended game play going this route.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A mage-class gains aggro = either A. another mage-class mez's mob so aggroed mage can run away or B. everyone but Paladin nukes away to kill it while Paladin tries to save the mage through  single heals that take at least 7 seconds apart = dead mage-class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now with lower level tiers or lower level mobs probably doable but not near the so called "end-game," at least by my math.  Can you tell I like to play these scenerios out in my head?  What is your method?  I would be interested in the story, complete group makeup as well as zone and mob level compared to your group level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know a single, well-placed taunt on a mob pop or incoming mob (say in a hall) is the only hope of saving a mage-class from end-game mobs.  Two or three quick mob hits on the mage and it's lights out!  Even with TS/Ventrillo, a surprise mob on the group with everyone screaming pop is barely enough time to target and taunt a mob before the mage-class is deceased.  Of course having a rez spell is even more handy without a healer in the group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Boli32]

I ran with a group that consisted only of me and 5 wizzies warlocks in. Things died fast - but if we weren’t careful I was one of those that died fast - you can't run with this group permanently - ADDS mean death and the best I found I could tank was ONE high blue ^^ and that was an a LoH and spamming heals. In short the downtime for hard mobs is extreme, and you can't tank much more than you can solo... but mobs you can tank go down fast - sounds like a great idea with a  healer and tank in 1one with 5 DPS but in practice only good if you are farming greens or greys for Lore and Legend or similar quests.<p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<P>The closest I've come thus far is four mage-class players, one healer and myself tanking in the Tower of Drafling to get the "By Hook or By." level 40 heritage for guildies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I love working in that zone as it's a lot of fun.  I've completed it twice now and have the floorplan down very well, so I run groups to the Bixie Mastery book first so hopefully they'll get random updates along the way and then it's off for the Jumjum update and the queen's room.  Unfortunately, we haven't been able to get the queen yet, but the mage-class players REALLY enjoy getting the crook (staff) at the end plus the heritage status.</P> <P>If you guys do all of "Sir Tatters" quests in EL, the final task takes place in the tower and rewards a very nice heavy armor helmet for the low 40's (rubicite/ebon look).  I highly recommend all Paladins do the access quest for the Tower of Drafling (nice jewelry reward) as the mage-class players will love you for leading the quest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks,</P> <P>Kalen</P>