If you want to be the Class Liaison, Post what you want to see for our Class.

[SunT]

<DIV> <DIV>I see five or ten posters that can read and respond to posts articulately and intellegently, but if they want a different Pally then me, then I don't want them as my Liaison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Tell us what you will stand up for for the Pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What will you advise SOE does with us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What would we look like in your ideal Pally form?  Full Tank, Off Tank, Hybrid healer/rezzer, DPS, Auxillery?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What skills/abilities need added, need refining and what should go away?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is what I want to know from those who wish to take this position.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you are serious, tell us...</DIV>

[pondbi]

<P>I'm not going to answer those questions that you listed, but i will give my 2cp on whats SOE needs to consider about pallies-</P> <P> </P> <P>Condemnation needs to be fixed like how it used to be, debuffing about 1k ac instead of only 82. </P> <P>We need to have access to at least 1 piercing weapon. I dont even care about being able to use all weapons, just access to 1 type of piercing weapon.</P> <P>The devs decided to not give us piercing or the ranged slot because of heals and wards probably, but i think we're losing out on alot more than we are getting. Crusaders are the only fighters to not have ranged weapons and pierce weapons. Why? Sure we get some spells and heal/wards, but dont the other subclasses have abilities that we dont get that make up for the difference? Monk/brusiers get alot more dps, FD, avoidance. Guards get to buff up their defense skill by like 15-20 more points than we can, plus mitigation and better hate as well as access to all weapons. Zerkers have ALOT more hate than us, use all weapons, buff defense better, and have alot more dps. </P> <P>I'm not saying that pallies are gimped or anything, but i think those differences more than make up for what we gain from being able to heal/ward. I think they should give us a piercing weapon and items we could put in our ranged slot for stats.</P> <P>Another thing pallies need help with is agro. It way too hard and mana consuming for a pally to keep agro then it is for any other tank. I'm not saying that we should have the best agro, but we do need some tweaking there.</P> <P>I think those are the changes that we need the most.</P>

[Tur]

<DIV>Did someone say there was going to be class liaisons? I saw a post by a MOD that said she was "interested" in who we considered helpful and knowledgeable. Maybe the intent is to award a house pet or a special icon on the boards here . . .</DIV>

[Boli32]

Personally I think that they are being purposely vague because: <b>A</b>: They are not sure themselves what to do <b>B: </b>They are throwing the idea out there to see what our reaction is. Of the 2 I think <b>B</b> is the most obvious of the two - being vague allows them to retreat and just say it was a "general query" if it goes down unfavourably - if it starts multitudes of arguments they can stop this "idea" (or whatever they are thinking of) before it gets too far and nobody loose face and its never mentioned again.I think they are just testing the water and reading our reactions carefully. *looks worriedly over shoulder*. <div></div>

[SanJ]

<DIV>Sony used the concept of a forum correspondent in their Star Wars Galaxies MMORPG.  The correspondent was responsible for presenting a profession's problems and general concerns to the development team.  Additionally, the correspondent had the ability to flag threads on their forum as stickes and a few other bells and whistles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see a very similar method already in place on this forum in that a Paladin tends to post a topic of interest and the rest of the paladin community jumps in to submit information, do testing based on posts and organize and contribute as needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally like the idea of having a paladin voice in the developer's ears to hear our feedback and to ponder game-play changes prior to a live update.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote:<div>Sony used the concept of a forum correspondent in their Star Wars Galaxies MMORPG.  The correspondent was responsible for presenting a profession's problems and general concerns to the development team.  Additionally, the correspondent had the ability to flag threads on their forum as stickes and a few other bells and whistles.</div> <div> </div> <div>I see a very similar method already in place on this forum in that a Paladin tends to post a topic of interest and the rest of the paladin community jumps in to submit information, do testing based on posts and organize and contribute as needed.</div> <div> </div> <div>I personally like the idea of having a paladin voice in the developer's ears to hear our feedback and to ponder game-play changes prior to a live update.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Kalen</div><hr></blockquote>Also I believe that in SWG, the correspondents were given a toon on there test server, so they could test new changes etc....plus they were given the chance to Beta the Combat Upgrade that just went in. Personally I am all for someone being (like Kalen said) in the devs ear for our feedback...but by that same token we have to make sure that what this person does, is what the community of Paladin's want, not just what the person who the liason/correspondent wants.    </span><div></div>

[SanJ]

<P>Exactly Phov,</P> <P>It will prove to be a difficult task not only for a correspondent to compile Paladin issues but to be able to come to some sort of general consensus that reflects the ideals and hopes of everyone playing the profession or minimally the majority.</P> <P>I believe the gap in desired and undesired abilities rest heavily upon Paladin level.  </P> <P>High level Paladins (upper 40's through 50) are going to spend a lot of game time in raid situations.  Issues that quickly pop into mind are aggro management.  Our taunts alone seem to be inferior to other professions requiring wards to pickup the slack.  The downside of this tactic is mana consumption.  I believe it would be safe to say that high level Paladins in the raid scene would sacrifice DPS and possibly some healing power for better aggro management at a lower mana cost.  Many raid mobs are or were immune to our weapon slashing and crushing thus the cry for a piercing capability by some.  I noticed a patch note or test note somewhere that mentioned a mob previously immune to multiple weapon types should now only be immune to one which is a nice move in the right direction for addressing this issue.</P> <P>Lower level-Mid Level Paladins (20's-early 40's) are usually pretty pleased with our overall abilities.  Not many professions come to mind that are flexible enough to MT, OT, heal, ward, etc.  DPS is pretty good overall, aggro management at times seems elusive, but good tactics and the occassional upgrade tend to compensate even though certain MOBs leave and NEVER come back.  However, how fun would it be if the tank never lost aggro?  Some of the lower level Paladins do not want DPS changed, they do not want wards or heals adjusted (even though some do).</P> <P>The real issue is that higher level content is a little different from the lower level content and requires adjustments that all Paladins are trying to make.  Many have found good ways to compensate, but there are areas that need work in development.</P> <P>A thought floating around in the back of my head for awhile has been if SOE can scale a dungeon based on player-group level (see expansion pack update notes), would it be possible to toggle between raid mode and normal mode?  When in raid mode our DPS suffers (maybe even greatly) but our taunts become more powerful and consume less mana?  Perhaps we could have some AA work to build stronger aggro management in raid situations with less mana consumption?</P> <P>What do you guys think?</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by SanJun on <span class=date_text>05-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Overall, I am happy with the class. In fact, it seems to be the least broken class in the game. Our DPS is excellent, because yesterday my DPS was clocked at 209, beating out both the lvl 50 bers and the lvl 50 SK I was competing with, so dont let any one say we dont DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, our aggro skills need work. There is no question that they are power hungry and provide poor cost-to-effect ratio. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 1st concern in Aggro. Aggro management defines our tanking, because no matter how UBER we are, if we cant keep the MOB from attacking our other GRP members we cant do our job. The fact is many healers and mages are woried because we lose aggro more easily than other tanks. There is no question about this. Yes, some of us have learned to compensate, but overall we need dev help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2nd concern is our DPS. Our DPS SHOULD NOT be touched! NEVER! Until they fix (big IF) our DEF buffs , we should NOT be touched in this department.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 3rd concern is power consumption. Fix the power consumption on our wards or heals, or make them more powerful. If im spending almost 200 power on a ward, that ward better be more than 600 or so. Same for my heals, either make them cheaper in energy usage or make them better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are the 3 main concerns of Paladins, judging from posts. These 3 areas are my main concern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Oakbr]

<i>When in raid mode our DPS suffers (maybe even greatly) but our taunts become more powerful and consume less mana?  Perhaps we could have some AA work to build stronger aggro management in raid situations with less mana consumption?</i> OK, straight up, I'm not at raid level yet.  I'll be dinging 38 tonight or tommorrow.  But, I am being recruited by a couple of raid guilds, and expect to be joining one shortly--thus I'll go into serious grind mode to get "caught up" to raid level.  That said, as a suggestion, what would you think about maybe adding a new combat art or even changing an existing one to be only usable with a 1 handed weapon--but providing a powerful taunt-like effect?  Maybe put it on a 15-20 second reuse timer?  Or, in the alternative, just beef up our shield bash line--add a longer stun, or a taunt component, or best of all, have it voice over insulting comments about the mob's mother--whatever it takes, to help aggro without nerfing out DPS for the solo guys?

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Now THAT is an interesting proposition from the above poster!!!. Having a spell that procs hate, like a Blessed Weapon type, but instead has procs for reasonable amount of hate every time...hmn..</P> <P>INTERESTING.</P> <DIV>I like it! in fact its brilliant! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Oakbr]

Thanks--don't think I can claim full credit for the idea though.  It's loosely based on post-LDoN EQ1 augmentation stones.  Don't know if you played EQ1 or not, but in that game, most of your gear has 1 or more slots for augmentation stones.  There are various slot types, and many different types of stones to go in each slot.  Pretty much all the high-end tanks had a taunt-proc type augmentation on their weapon.  The down side was that the best stones were really hard to get--they cost a high number of "adventure points" that could only be earned in LDoN (group instanced dungeons), or they dropped off tough named in high-end zones.

[Titali]

<DIV>first off, they were warrior only. secondly, relying on procs for agro is a load of crap,  ask any warrior from eq1. just make our taunts better; either more hate or quicker recast (grp ones especially).</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Oakbrow wrote:<i>When in raid mode our DPS suffers (maybe even greatly) but our taunts become more powerful and consume less mana?  Perhaps we could have some AA work to build stronger aggro management in raid situations with less mana consumption?</i> OK, straight up, I'm not at raid level yet.  I'll be dinging 38 tonight or tommorrow.  But, I am being recruited by a couple of raid guilds, and expect to be joining one shortly--thus I'll go into serious grind mode to get "caught up" to raid level.  That said, as a suggestion, what would you think about maybe adding a new combat art or even changing an existing one to be only usable with a 1 handed weapon--but providing a powerful taunt-like effect?  Maybe put it on a 15-20 second reuse timer?  Or, in the alternative,<b> just beef up our shield bash line--add a longer stun, or a taunt component</b>, or best of all, have it voice over insulting comments about the mob's mother--whatever it takes, to help aggro without nerfing out DPS for the solo guys?<hr></blockquote>FYI - Our shield bash line actually increases hate better then our last AoE taunt. My Smite Prayer at Adept 1 I believe adds less hate then Unyielding Conviction (this is off the top of my head I believe thats the name)...so it should be a mainstay in our pulling techniques. The more and more I think about it, maybe we should stay the same...with the exception that our taunts either take less power, or we are given a training art at L50 that gives us a nice AoE taunt....just a suggestion.</span><div></div>

[Titali]

im not lvl 50 yet, but im pretty sure one of our lvl 50 skills is an AE taunt. that and AE nuke i think. uzhiel or some other 50 plz set that straight.

[Oakbr]

<i>first off, they were warrior only. secondly, relying on procs for agro is a load of crap,  ask any warrior from eq1. just make our taunts better; either more hate or quicker recast (grp ones especially). </i>First off, I said EQ1 high end raid tanks--the fact that those were generally warriors is implied.  EQ1 Pallys had issues, but maintaining aggro was not one of them. Second off, I never suggested relying on procs for aggro--it's one more tool to be used, nothing more.

[Oakbr]

<i><span>FYI - Our shield bash line actually increases hate better then our last AoE taunt. My Smite Prayer at Adept 1 I believe adds less hate then Unyielding Conviction (this is off the top of my head I believe thats the name)...so it should be a mainstay in our pulling techniques. </span></i><span>I'm bad at spell names, too--but I think maybe you're talking about Blinding Bash?  Whatever it is called, yeah, I know the spell you mean.  Not something I use to pull, though.  For pulling, I usually go with either Noble Tone, or Divine Vengeance, when I'm pulling from a distance.  Sometimes I'll just proximity pull--usually if the pull itself is lengthy--and then I'll stop to hit a quick HO before bringing the mob all the way into camp.  I really like to hit that first HO solo--that seems to help even when one of the nukers gets a little trigger-happy early in the fight. </span>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Oakbrow wrote:<i><span>FYI - Our shield bash line actually increases hate better then our last AoE taunt. My Smite Prayer at Adept 1 I believe adds less hate then Unyielding Conviction (this is off the top of my head I believe thats the name)...so it should be a mainstay in our pulling techniques. </span></i><span>I'm bad at spell names, too--but I think maybe you're talking about Blinding Bash?  Whatever it is called, yeah, I know the spell you mean.  Not something I use to pull, though.  For pulling, I usually go with either Noble Tone, or Divine Vengeance, when I'm pulling from a distance.  Sometimes I'll just proximity pull--usually if the pull itself is lengthy--and then I'll stop to hit a quick HO before bringing the mob all the way into camp.  I really like to hit that first HO solo--that seems to help even when one of the nukers gets a little trigger-happy early in the fight. </span><hr></blockquote>When you hit L40 you will get our best pulling spell, Refusal of Grace.... My pull technique is as follows: (some varying depending on group, etc) Get into range -- Refusal of grace -- Shatter Will -- Divine Judgement -- Clarion Call -- Smite Prayer -- Courageous Dash -- Call to Glory Rinse and repeast Clarion call and Smite Prayer while the DPS takes care of the mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This is of course if I have a group that has enough dps so I do not have to add mine, other then Refusal of Grace and Sworn Strike (which I don't use a ton because between them, they take off 10% + of my total power pool) </span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Zealous Preaching is our lvl 50 AE taunt, low cost taunt..pretty good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our bash line is a Taunt as well. This is the problem, both Guards and Bers have skills or stances that proc hate, on top on their standard taunts, like taunting blows or Hold the Line types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do not. Our ward is supposed to generate hate, but I doubt it does, and even if it did, at almost 200 mana, its EXTREMELY inefficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our heals, even if they are supposed to aggro, are also EXTREMELY expensive at 150+ mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even Call to Glory or Therons are expensive, and I still doubt they work as intended as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our one shining aggro skill is redemption, but it was nerfed, and it costs 2 concentration points, where it should only cost one so we could use Kasines or Crusade and one of our defensive stances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Titali]

<DIV>agro augments from ldon were war only. period. yes high end MTs were warriors, but the augments were too. the few agro procing weapons pallys could use, were completely pointless because we had ridiculous agro, we know. but none of that matters. i would rather them fix our [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty taunts instead of adding an agro proc to blessed weapon or w/e. i use renirs the lvl 30 blessed aid upgrade, and i love its efficiency, its one of the best in game as far as that is concerned. you can cast it for ages. the ward though, definately overpriced, actually it shoudl jsut give more hate (though i dont believe it gives any either, outside of normal ward agro) and/or ward for more. i dont find call to glory to be too overpriced either, its a buff. idk i raelly dont have agro problems as is at 48 and i dont even use redemption. just pump out some nice dps and add a few taunts. when you can pull agro off of a guard or berserker just by dpsing, you know there is some serious agro there. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps. divine judgement for pulling, extended range for the win!</DIV>

[coochic]

You know what, I can't be any more happy with my Paladin. I love the class, and I love the spells and arts we get. It seems to me that some of us "NOBLE KNIGHTS" or nohting more than big cry babys. If you think a guardian has what you want go be one. Don't cry and moan and get them and us the Ol' nerf stick. That goes for any class that may read this, stop crying about your class, if you don't like it go to another one.

[Rage]

<DIV>to ask for something that procs hate like a stance doesnt make sense to me, its not our class.  Im not sure but i hope guards are asking for wards and heals and such.  We arent the best at keeping agro, but in a normal 6 person group i dont have trouble keeping agro.  yes sometimes i lose it but not a majority of the time.</DIV> <DIV>    With that said, im sure we dont have the ability to keep agro in a raid situation, in fact ive seen guards lose it which means i know we couldnt but we arent supposed to, we are suppsed to buff, ward, heal, and dps.....which we do.</DIV> <DIV>   I realize this is just my opinion but i dont think we should ask for major changes like a hate proc or anything because i dont think thats our class.  Perhaps slightly stronger taunts so i had a chance to gain agro back that i lost but nothing drastic.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my opinion</DIV>

[BlackW]

<P>I dont know if I want to be class liason, I suppose that in some ways unofficially, I already am because of my guide.  There are many other Paladins who are probably more qualified than I am (Meridian, Wildon and many others).   I have my plate full with a large PlanetSide outfit, a large EQ2 guild and school.   I will contribute what I can to the discussion.  I will be attending the SOE fan faire and the discussion before the fan faire:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=9940" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=9940</A></P> <P>If there are any Paladin issues you would like me to bring up, please let me know.</P>

[Sav]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div> <div>I see five or ten posters that can read and respond to posts articulately and intellegently, but if they want a different Pally then me, then I don't want them as my Liaison.</div> <div> </div></div> <div>Tell us what you will stand up for for the Pally. <font color="#ffff00">Main Tanking Range Slot </font></div> <div> </div> <div>What will you advise SOE does with us?</div> <div> </div> <div>What would we look like in your ideal Pally form?  Full Tank, Off Tank, Hybrid healer/rezzer, DPS, Auxillery?</div> <div>  <font color="#ffff00">Main Tank</font> </div> <div>What skills/abilities need added, need refining and what should go away? <font color="#ffff00">Higher level redemption would be nice.  A change to Intervene that is more in line with the guardian equivalent would be nice too.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>This is what I want to know from those who wish to take this position.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>So if you are serious, tell us...</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Seomon]

<P>A Class Liaison (better known as a Correspondent), is a bad idea, in my humble opinion. The Devs know how they want the game to be, and to stack on 24 different people saying "We Mystics want X and we want it now!" or "We Paladins think we should be the best at X and we want it now!" isn't going to change anything. Having a class list of items that are bugged and then a seperate thread saying what we want to be better/added is the way to go. Everyone should have an equal voice, not just one person.</P> <P>(Enters plug for his thread: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7023&jump=true" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7023&jump=true</A>)</P>

[Oakbr]

<DIV><EM> dont know if I want to be class liason, I suppose that in some ways unofficially, I already am because of my guide.  There are many other Paladins who are probably more qualified than I am (Meridian, Wildon and many others).</EM> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nobody with ANY sense would want you in that role.  You're the rocket scientist that thinks anybody with decent gear has to be buying plat because you can't seem to make any coin.  ANYBODY would be better than you--even the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] monk guy that trolls this forum.  Haven't seen your guide.  I'll just assume it sucks, if it comes from a guy with such assinine notions about people with good gear.</DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM> dont know if I want to be class liason, I suppose that in some ways unofficially, I already am because of my guide.  There are many other Paladins who are probably more qualified than I am (Meridian, Wildon and many others).</EM> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nobody with ANY sense would want you in that role.  You're the rocket scientist that thinks anybody with decent gear has to be buying plat because you can't seem to make any coin.  ANYBODY would be better than you--even the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] monk guy that trolls this forum.  Haven't seen your guide.  I'll just assume it sucks, if it comes from a guy with such assinine notions about people with good gear.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thank you for your positive contribution to the Paladin forum.   You represent Paladins well.  It is good to know that you are the high priest and arbiter of all Paladin issues.  My guide stands on its own and does not need your approval.  It is one of the most popular threads in these forums.   I wrote it to help others, not tear them down, something you excel at.  There is a link to my guide in my signature.  If you do not understand how to use links on web pages, please click on help above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for that "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] monk guy" you mentioned, his name is Gage-Mikel.  In case you havent noticed at tier5 and especially at lvl 50 monks become very strong assets to a group.   They have damage that far exceeds that of a Paladin and avoidance that we could only dream of.   You might want to try being nice to them.  At least on Lucan Dlere, we are a fairly small tier5 community and it behooves one who whishes to advance his or her character to have good manners and be respectful of others.  Gage and I have had our differences but when it comes to monks, he knows his stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bad manners, rudness and name-calling is the antithesis of good roleplay and contrary to the character of a Paladin.  Perhaps you should consider deleting your Paladin and creating a Shadow Knight.  However, I know SKs on my server who are far better mannered and honorable than you so that would be an insult to them.  You could petition the GMs to become an ooze in the depths of some dungeon, a fitting character for you.   You could then attack every Paladin who wanders near you and be as ill mannered as you like.</DIV>

[Tyr]

I just want to thank Oakbrow and BlackWeb for making this thread a nice place to come to.  It's because of you that many people don't come here and share ideas.  As out of line as Oakbrow was, your response doesn't make you any better BlackWeb.  If you really want to better represent the Paladins then maybe next time you will move on and not stoop to the same level.  Thanks for those that tried to make this thread productive.  <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyris wrote:<BR>I just want to thank Oakbrow and BlackWeb for making this thread a nice place to come to.  It's because of you that many people don't come here and share ideas.  As out of line as Oakbrow was, your response doesn't make you any better BlackWeb.  If you really want to better represent the Paladins then maybe next time you will move on and not stoop to the same level.  Thanks for those that tried to make this thread productive.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never flame those who share ideas.  My response was in no way comparable to Oakbrows.   Just trying to lighten the atmosphere a bit with a little roleplay humor and fun.   EQ2 is a roleplay game so we should have fun with it, even when posting in the forums <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>To be honest, it is up to SOE, not us as to who represents Paladins if anyone.  I do not think any one person can represent all Paladins.   I am not suggesting myself to represent all Paladins.  I will be attending the Fan Faire and the discussion before the fan faire.   If there is anything any of you want me to bring up with SOE, please let me know in this thread or the other thread I started.  It would be arrogant of me to assume that I understand all Paladin issues well enough to represent Paladins at the Fan Faire without input from others.</P>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> coochic wrote:<BR>You know what, I can't be any more happy with my Paladin. I love the class, and I love the spells and arts we get. It seems to me that some of us "NOBLE KNIGHTS" or nohting more than big cry babys. If you think a guardian has what you want go be one. Don't cry and moan and get them and us the Ol' nerf stick. That goes for any class that may read this, stop crying about your class, if you don't like it go to another one. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Please take a moment and read the forums before responding like this.  </P> <P><STRONG>None of us WANTS a change</STRONG>. <STRONG> SOE</STRONG> has stated it <STRONG>IS changing us</STRONG>.  We are simply trying to create a united front to help direct this change.</P> <P>Take off the blinders and get with the program.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>...even the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] monk guy that trolls this forum. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey, I resemble that comment!</P> <P>But anyway.  I'm not too sure what SOE has up their sleeve either, but I think whatever they decide will be in the best interest of the community.  I personally liked how the correspondents worked in SWG (especially Arjur as jedi correspondent) but its a lot of work.  I was pretty good friends with a few of them in SWG and it isn't easy reading all the threads in the forum, trying to find out what is the most pressing needs of your class and presenting that to the devs each month in a way that is reasonable to all your fellow players but also to the devs.</P> <P>But, in regards to Faar's post, I think its cool that SOE is at least looking at the possibility of talking with some players a little closer about game issues.  I mean what better way to see what class "x" is thinking than to talk to some of the people who play the class day in and day out.</P> <P>The hardest thing would be to find someone open minded enough to not discount opinions that clash with their own.</P> <P>Regardless, if any sort of system like this comes to fruition, I've seen plenty of Pallys who know their stuff, so I doubt you guys have anything to worry about.</P>

[Faarwolf]

I don't see why this thread has to become a flame war.

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>...even the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] monk guy that trolls this forum. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey, I resemble that comment!</P> <P>But anyway.  I'm not too sure what SOE has up their sleeve either, but I think whatever they decide will be in the best interest of the community.  I personally liked how the correspondents worked in SWG (especially Arjur as jedi correspondent) but its a lot of work.  I was pretty good friends with a few of them in SWG and it isn't easy reading all the threads in the forum, trying to find out what is the most pressing needs of your class and presenting that to the devs each month in a way that is reasonable to all your fellow players but also to the devs.</P> <P>But, in regards to Faar's post, I think its cool that SOE is at least looking at the possibility of talking with some players a little closer about game issues.  I mean what better way to see what class "x" is thinking than to talk to some of the people who play the class day in and day out.</P> <P>The hardest thing would be to find someone open minded enough to not discount opinions that clash with their own.</P> <P>Regardless, if any sort of system like this comes to fruition, I've seen plenty of Pallys who know their stuff, so I doubt you guys have anything to worry about.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>To be honest, I really do not worry that much about changes made in the Paladin from patch to patch by SOE.  As far as I can tell, they have not "ruined" the Paladin and I doubt they will.  The one exception might be the Holy Nag nerf but I understand why they did that.   No class should get a 3.6p tier3 mount for 12s.  I am not that worried about what SOE is going to do to the Paladin in the future.  We need to remeber that SOE is a for-profit company.   Their success depends on keeping their subscribers happy.  Running off thousands of Paladin players is not something they want to do.   They will constantly tinker with game balance and tweak the game but I do not expect major changes except in the upcoming expansion, if it ever comes.</P> <P>My prime character was created shortly after release.  The game has changed a lot since then, mostly for the better.  If offline selling had been around since day1, he would be rich beyond the dreams of avarice.  My alt paladin character has already made more coin by lvl 29 than my prime did by 40.  One of the main reasons I play EQ2 and not that other MMORPG is SOE knows what they are doing but I have serious doubts about the ability of that other company to run a successful MMORPG over the long term.</P> <P>Improving the Paladins tanking ability would not necessarily be a bad thing.  At the cost of some offense?  That might be a bad thing.    Nerfing Paladin Agility could make some of the high agility races look a lot better for making Paladins. </P> <P>Getting back to the monk.  Why cant I have a spell that does over 7k damage per hit and 80% avoidance?</P> <P>*glares at Gage-Mikel*</P>

[Oakbr]

<DIV><EM>Thank you for your positive contribution to the Paladin forum.</EM>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're the guy that said anybody running around in good gear is buying plat or otherwise cheating.  You've haven't apologized for that assinine remark yet, and I'm still highly offended by it.  My pally is wearing imbued feysteel, has multiple adept 3s, and has plat in the bank to upgrade at least his BP to ebon as soon as I ding 40.  I got everything I have honestly, playing the game as intended, harvesting my own rares.  Apologize for your idiocy, and maybe I'll give you a second chance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did manage to look at your guide.  Eh.  Doesn't totally suck, but it isn't great.  Way too much of your notions of "proper paladin roleplay", and again you advise against purchasing the best available equipment.  Completely ignores the evil races than can become paladins via Betrayal.  Farghus is a Troll Pally.  For RP purposes, he's living the dream of his Great Grandpappy Farghus Blastenfartz, the non-evil SK who always wanted to be a pally--but the mean old dorfs wouldn't let him in.  He's noble, brave, kind...and an absolute [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]-kicker in combat.  Really gets tired of the racists in Qeynos constantly insulting him, just for being a troll.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see, my point is, there is more than one way to RP a Paladin.  And there are plenty of LEGITIMATE ways to earn coin in this game.  You've got this notion that you know everything there is to know, and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.  Plus the thing about anybody with better gear than you think they ought to have must have bought plat or otherwise cheated. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for my contributions to the Pally forums, look at other threads--the ones where you aren't calling people cheaters or acting like Karana's Gift to Paladins.  You'll see I post lots of things, and I call em like I see em.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 AM</span>

[prisoner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>I see five or ten posters that can read and respond to posts articulately and intellegently, but if they want a different Pally then me, then I don't want them as my Liaison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Tell us what you will stand up for for the Pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What will you advise SOE does with us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What would we look like in your ideal Pally form?  Full Tank, Off Tank, Hybrid healer/rezzer, DPS, Auxillery?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What skills/abilities need added, need refining and what should go away?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is what I want to know from those who wish to take this position.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you are serious, tell us...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hypothetically speaking,  if I were some sort of liason for our class,  it wouldn't be what *I* want to see done or not done,  but it would be what *YOU* want.  Gather the collective issues brought up and discussed and present them in a professional manner to those above who actually work for our benefit.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a liason you aren't the "president" of the paladins,  more of a reporter.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The general consensus is that first and foremost,  we are tanks,  and we want to be able to tank.  Most like us how we are,  myself included,  thus we wish to stay as we are,  or as close as possible.  There are some definate concerns regarding aggro generation and combat arts/spell efficiency in terms of power usage.  Obvious broken skills that have been broken for quite some time are also an issue.  Game breaking?  Nope.  Do we want them to work properly anyway?  Hell yes.  These are just the tip of the proverbial iceburgs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the liason,  I don't want someone who can just express their views to the devs,  I want someone who will express all of our views.  I'd expect them to bring up our valid concerns and work in a mature manner.  That will help us all in the end.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd offer to do it,  but I don't think I'm popular enough <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Really though,  if you can do the above,  then you'll have the support of the paladin community. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17</DIV>

[Titali]

<DIV>maybe you havent noticed blackweb, but most people dont RP. im not sure whether you are fighting for the rep position or you just like to hear yourself talk. but in any case you seem to be largely biased to the RP community, which is in fact the minority.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

Come on guys/girls...seriously enough with the flaming back and forth, or bickering, etc...just focus on the original posters comments. If you have issues with each other, then just PM stuff back and forth....we got the attention of the mods/devs, but for the flaming, not the reason we want to get there attention...   <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>Thank you for your positive contribution to the Paladin forum.</EM>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're the guy that said anybody running around in good gear is buying plat or otherwise cheating.  You've haven't apologized for that assinine remark yet, and I'm still highly offended by it.  My pally is wearing imbued feysteel, has multiple adept 3s, and has plat in the bank to upgrade at least his BP to ebon as soon as I ding 40.  I got everything I have honestly, playing the game as intended, harvesting my own rares.  Apologize for your idiocy, and maybe I'll give you a second chance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did manage to look at your guide.  Eh.  Doesn't totally suck, but it isn't great.  Way too much of your notions of "proper paladin roleplay", and again you advise against purchasing the best available equipment.  Completely ignores the evil races than can become paladins via Betrayal.  Farghus is a Troll Pally.  For RP purposes, he's living the dream of his Great Grandpappy Farghus Blastenfartz, the non-evil SK who always wanted to be a pally--but the mean old dorfs wouldn't let him in.  He's noble, brave, kind...and an absolute [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]-kicker in combat.  Really gets tired of the racists in Qeynos constantly insulting him, just for being a troll. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see, my point is, there is more than one way to RP a Paladin.  And there are plenty of LEGITIMATE ways to earn coin in this game.  You've got this notion that you know everything there is to know, and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.  Plus the thing about anybody with better gear than you think they ought to have must have bought plat or otherwise cheated. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for my contributions to the Pally forums, look at other threads--the ones where you aren't calling people cheaters or acting like Karana's Gift to Paladins.  You'll see I post lots of things, and I call em like I see em.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:32 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:34 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is not what I said.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.    Leave that discussion elsewhere.   I have politiely answered your post in that topic in detail.   Preserving the integrity of the game could not be more important, that is what the Blue Collar Paladin topic is about, preserving, as much as possible, the integrity of the game for Paladins.   That happens to be one of SOEs goals as well.</DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Titaliss wrote:<BR> <DIV>maybe you havent noticed blackweb, but most people dont RP. im not sure whether you are fighting for the rep position or you just like to hear yourself talk. but in any case you seem to be largely biased to the RP community, which is in fact the minority.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>EQ2 is a RP game.  Dont know what else to tell you about that one.  If you dont want to RP, then dont.   Lets not start a flame war between RPers and non-RPers.

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>Come on guys/girls...seriously enough with the flaming back and forth, or bickering, etc...just focus on the original posters comments.<BR><BR>If you have issues with each other, then just PM stuff back and forth....we got the attention of the mods/devs, but for the flaming, not the reason we want to get there attention...   <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think what the origonal poster was suggesting was some kind of spokesperson for Paladins.  You are one of the individuals I would suggest for the job.  I think you are a fine example of what a Paladin should be.   I will warn you or anyone else who wants the job, the better you do your job, the more likely you are to make some people mad.   Success and notariety often breed resentment and midnless flaming.   That is why I would not want the job.  I have my hands full already with my guide, my guild and my ps outfit.  That is enough contreversy and notariety for me.   I also do not know if I would be free to speak my mind if I were some sort of official Paladin representative <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 AM</span>

[Oakbr]

<div><font color="#ffcccc"><i>That is not what I said.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.    Leave that discussion elsewhere.   I have politiely answered your post in that topic in detail.   Preserving the integrity of the game could not be more important, that is what the Blue Collar Paladin topic is about, preserving, as much as possible, the integrity of the game for Paladins.   That happens to be one of SOEs goals as well. </i><font color="#ffffff">Get over yourself already.  You do not tell me what or where I may post.  You have repeatedly posted the notion that it is not possible for a level 40 player to legitimately wear ebon armor.  You are wrong.  W-R-O-N-G.  The fact that you obviously do not know what you're talking about on this subject is relevant to your attempting to put yourself forward as some kind of "model paladin".  You ain't.  You need to retract that insulting position, which has been thoroughly debunked despite your denials, and I'll be riding your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] until you do.</font> </font></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcccc><I>That is not what I said.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.    Leave that discussion elsewhere.   I have politiely answered your post in that topic in detail.   Preserving the integrity of the game could not be more important, that is what the Blue Collar Paladin topic is about, preserving, as much as possible, the integrity of the game for Paladins.   That happens to be one of SOEs goals as well.<BR><BR></I><FONT color=#ffffff>Get over yourself already.  You do not tell me what or where I may post.  You have repeatedly posted the notion that it is not possible for a level 40 player to legitimately wear ebon armor.  You are wrong.  W-R-O-N-G.  The fact that you obviously do not know what you're talking about on this subject is relevant to your attempting to put yourself forward as some kind of "model paladin".  You ain't.  You need to retract that insulting position, which has been thoroughly debunked despite your denials, and I'll be riding your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] until you do.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Again, that is not what I said.  Please stop putting words in my mouth.   Your rudness is becoming tiresome.   You are accomplishing nothing by continuing this here.   Please stop.   If you do not, I will let the moderator deal with you. <p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 AM</span>

[Oakbr]

<div></div><div></div>Want me to stop?  Apologize for your statement that anyone with rare armor at level 40 is a cheater, and I'll stop.  Until then, no dice. And see this thread for discussion of how harvesting works: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=9976 Do these words look familiar: <font color="#ffcccc">Could a player actually come up with 30-60pp by lvl 40 and be 100% legit?  I suppose it is possible though highly unlikely.  If that player were a successful tier5 artisan, yes.   Adventurer, I doubt it.  That is why I wear pristine fulginate and have 2 rare items, a sword and a shield. <font color="#ffffff">They should.  They're yours.  You pulled the 30-60pp based on your guesstimate of what it might cost on your server, which seems to have high prices.  But your point is obvious--anyone with rare armor at level 40 must be a cheater.  I find that highly offensive, and again demand a retraction, Mr. Honorable Paladin, Sir.</font> </font> <p>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <span class="date_text">05-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:26 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Oakbrow on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <P>Getting back to the monk.  Why cant I have a spell that does over 7k damage per hit and 80% avoidance?</P> <P>*glares at Gage-Mikel*<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well the 7k (actually 11k) damage thing only works on solo mobs and it stuns you for 30 seconds after you use it.<BR>

[Titali]

i nominate Gage-Mikel for the Paladin Class Liaison!

[Gaige]

Let's see.  So that's Guardian, Monk and Paladin so far.  Not bad I suppose <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />