Some advice from you seasoned Pallies pls?

[Azakiel]

<DIV>Hiya all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just dinged 40 last night  (Barbarian) and decided not to make any rash decisions on my training upgrade. I have had a look at the boards and some good search engines and can only find partial stats for the three choices:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theron's Call of Hope (nice hate tranferral - my duo buddy is a warlock about 2 lvls ahead of me - always fun keeping the aggro if he goes nuke happy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV>Arem's Divine Retribution (nice damage for solo - cannot see a similar attack until end game. Anyone know if its on the same timer higher up as anything else? Blessed Rush?)</DIV> <DIV>Kasine's Enlightened Piety (agility seems to be the biggest gain here but cannot actually find any figures on how much agility you gain - i like not being hit all the time!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at my unbuffed stats my agility is by far the lowest stat. I mostly duo and like to solo as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any words of wisdom would be much appreciated!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whack Anything</DIV> <DIV>Neriak </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Troodon]

<div></div>Of late people have been touting Kasine's Enlightened Piety as the one to choose, however I went for Theron's Call of Hope simply for the extra 5% hate transfer. Given the current state of our hate management abilities personally I cant really see there being any other choice but Theron's. But likewise, Id be interested to hear others opinions on what to choose. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>04-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:55 PM</span>

[hylozoist]

From Kasine's, you gain about 16 agility at level 40.  It uses the same modifier as your Wis bonus, I believe, although there were some changes to it in the last month.  It's useful, as you don't have to think about it very much, but with "buff caps" that effectiveness might be reduced. I haven't tried the other skills, but as I solo alot, Kasine's is a serviceable choice. <div></div>

[AlleySpa]

<P>I chose therons because of the plus 20 in attack it gives me, as well as using it when adds come in and things start to get a little confusing, get's insta aggro.</P> <P>However...the extra agility of kasines seems very nice but easily made up with the right choice of gear.</P>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Miracole wrote:i can't stress this enough. for you lvl 40 gonna be paladins, remember these words: Kasine's enlightened piety Kasine's enlightened piety Kasine's enlightened piety Kasine's enlightened piety Kasine's enlightened piety k i think you got the point <div></div><hr></blockquote>

[Avigat]

<P>I need to test a bit further, but I took divine retribution, and it seems to stack with sworn strike.</P> <P> </P> <P>What I mean by this is if 2 pallies are in the same group, if both tried sworn strike at the same time, youd get a cant cast message.  I havent seen any and I group with another pally alot.  Now it could be just a timing thing and we have been ungodly lucky, or might be a nice perk that the skills can be used at the same time allowing us to stack arems with another pallies sworn strike.</P> <P> </P> <P>Will test it more later, anyone else know for certain?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Titali]

<DIV>kasines piety keeps going up, and it beats the hell out of crusade(the upgrade). at 47 it gives like 20 agi or 2% avoidance depending on how much agi you already have, since you dont get as much bang for your buck eventually. i never really have a problem holding agro. at adept1, as far as call to glory is concerned it gives 11pierce/slash/crush... therons gives the same atk, the agro is really the only benefit.</DIV>

[JonasBlackmore]

<DIV>Kasines -- The extra agility is very useful, and helps a lot with the tanking.  As others have stated, I haven't run into issues with agro with my usual group of Templar, Monk, Warlock, so getting that extra avoidance has been great.</DIV>

[SunT]

<DIV>I chose Kasines and I like it BUT, I have grouped with a lower Pally who has the Therons and if he casts it I can't keep aggro from him.  Even if I use retribution on him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I ever respec, I will change to Therons because I MT all the time.  If I were an assist all the time I would rather Kasines because I can give it to the MT and other mele.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therons will allow the AGI from Palins.  Palins and Kasines do NOT stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the best combo, IMO, is Palins at 30 and Therons at 40.   More aggro and nearly the same AGI.  Then make your buff spell an Adept 3 and you are golden.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P> </P> <P> Theron's was my ultimate choice, and I have to agree in the time I've been using it, the hate transfer is key, even if it wasn't lready a nice buff. Another tool that we can use to compliment our taunt skills shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. While Kasine's may be the popular choice, it's never going to save the group and draw agro like a timely cast of Theron's will.</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P align=left>I went with Kasine's Piety. Im just not convinced that Theron's actually does transfer hate, since Call to Glory was just now "fixed"  and I'm still not qute sure that indeed it was fixed.</P> <P>The reason was raids and, to an extent, tanking. In a raid Im usually a hybrid DPS/ rezzer, when im not MA or MT, which means I normally escort 3 healers. I can buff them all of them with Kasine's, which gives them a NICE increase in stats. They dont need attack buffs, they need wisdom and stre buffs. </P> <P>To me Therons is nice only in exp grps, and even then I feel Call to Glory is sufficient, Also, i saw a post above me about Kasine's giving 16 agility. That number is not right. I believe its Crusade that gives 16, Kasines gives 27, but I could be wrong. I originally had Therons, but when I respec I went Kasines and from my experience it's much more useful. </P> <P>Kasine's give you an extra 22 to 27 points to almost every skill, except intel. Thats one of the strongest buffs in the game.</P> <P>Also, parse your DPS with Therons and then after. I did and I wasnt impressed:smileysad:</P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[eyes007]

<P>This all sounds very odd to me, people are choosing Kasines for that extra agility when tanks that wear heavy armor don't get much avoidance anyway. I guess the agility is good for getting more hits than misses but I bought 2 hex dolls (the agility ones +9 and will upgrade to +12 when I get the chance) that has raised my agility to similar levels as my str (or at the very least, it's the second highest of my stats when fully buffed, or just behind stamina when not). I've concentrated all my abilities into making more damage in the quickest time. So I chose Arems Divine Judgement. It was a good choice knowing that NOW Sony will be increasing taunts for us and increasing our mitigation but sadly taking away some DPS. This will make me "barely cutting it" but useful still.</P> <P>Can someone advise if I did the wrong thing here? Hex Doll prices shoudn't be a problem (mine cost 15g each for +9) so if I wanna swap and change for different tanking opportunities then I can buy some str dolls, or sta dolls or wis dolls to suit each instance rather than have an ability that I can't modify unless I have a respec.</P>

[Yrield]

At lvl50 Kasine's give: +23 WIS/AGI +27 STR/STA Crusade adept1 at 50: +18 WIS +25 STR/STA IMHO, Therion is close to useless in normal group experience (i can hold aggro w/o call to glory) and useless in raid situation (you wont be in the dps group, so no real hate gain) <div></div>

[eyes007]

ahhhh...I did not know the complete stats behind Kasines. How long does it last for? Does it really give that much of a boost to all four skills?

[Cu]

<P>I went with Kasine's as well. Theron's would be good if you tank a lot, so if that's the case, Theron's probably best. Arem's not too sure.. AFAIK it shares the same time as sworn strike we get at 42. Sworn Strike adept 3 does the DPS for me, don't see why anyone would need Arem's for that.</P> <P>Then Kasine's, that's just a great buff and like some other people said much better than Crusade. One of the best buff spells in game. MT for top raiding guild on my server wants a pally in his group for this buff while raiding and it can also be cast on main healer(s). Imho, the best option for lvl 40 training unless you're always tanking.</P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>eyes007 wrote:ahhhh...I did not know the complete stats behind Kasines. How long does it last for? Does it really give that much of a boost to all four skills? <hr></blockquote></span>It lasts for 12 hours, so you cast it once, and you are done...it might be one of the best buffs in the game period.... <div></div>

[Darki]

<div></div>Kasine's also only uses one concentration point, so you can have it on a few people if you aren't running your defense buff. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Darkith on <span class=date_text>05-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Darkith wrote:Kasine's also only uses on concentration point, so you can have it on a few people if you aren't running your defense buff. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep, exactly. When I am tanking blue, green ^^ mobs with a duo or trio (or full group depending on level range), I normally do not run Benediction or Shining Beacon...I will give my healer Kasine's for the Wisdom..... </span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Kasine's is the difference between me being able to solo a ^^ blue lvl 47 PF giant and running away fast...at least IMHO. Therons would not, although it is a nice grp buff.</P> <P>For soloers and small grp's Kasines is superb.</P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin/25 Tailor, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>Kasine's is the difference between me being able to solo a ^^ blue lvl 47 PF giant and running away fast...at least IMHO. Therons would not, although it is a nice grp buff.</P> <P>For soloers and small grp's Kasines is superb.</P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin/25 Tailor, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed, so ultimately, as it boils down with most of these training choices, your play style is going to determine which fits best for you. I almost never end up solo'ing, and play the MT role more often then not. Doing so, I can confirm Theron's does transfer signifigant agro and I use it constantly since the moment I picked it out of the availible choices.</DIV>

[SunT]

<P>I have confirmed that Therons does in fact grant a huge amount of aggro.  When I first found out it was because a lower Pally was taking aggro and keeping it consistantly.  I had him take it off and he was not able to take aggro again.  Even with redemption on him I could not take aggro back,</P> <P>Those of you who know the power of Redemption should be able to understand the impact of transfering 10% of all party members to you.  </P> <P>We have issues with long term cost of maintaining aggro.  This is a VERY cheap and effective way to help with it.</P> <P>If you assist most of the time go Kasines, if you MT go Theron.  If you are unsure I would go Theron.  </P>

[eyes007]

<P>Boohoo! :smileysad:</P> <P>Now I'm gonna have to wait for the next free respec if and when that's gonna happen...I wish I had known about it earlier, but then it's my fault, shoulda researched it more...</P> <P> </P>

[Azakiel]

<P>Boohoo.......same here.</P> <P>I should have waited for all this valuable advise (thanks for all the responeses) but I went ahead and and chose Theron's. I am often the main tank, but am seriously worried about my future in raid content.</P> <P>Lost the aggro in one encounter and did NOT get it back with Theron's is all I can say now.......</P> <P> </P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Azakiel wrote:<p>Boohoo.......same here.</p> <p>I should have waited for all this valuable advise (thanks for all the responeses) but I went ahead and and chose Theron's. I am often the main tank, but am seriously worried about my future in raid content.</p> <p>Lost the aggro in one encounter and did NOT get it back with Theron's is all I can say now.......</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>...and that sums up our major problem right there..when we lose aggro, we need to power drain ourselves to get it back...and then if we lose it again, we are screwed... For people who say, well it's just because you don't know how to play your class, you are wrong....for some people yes that might be the issue, but even for people who know how to play there class (which I consider myself to be), we still have aggro management problems....hopefully in the combat pass, they will balance this better.</span><div></div>

[Azakiel]

<P><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> About the only guaranteed way of getting the aggro back instantly is if the old OH CRAP heal is charged and ready to go. Sorry I digress and know there are loads of threads covering this topic. One mis-timed buff in the middle of a pull from a group member can mean a significant amout of our power pool gone. I have all taunts at adept1 and inflame at adept3 - this is how it went.</P> <P>1.....loose aggro (early buff i think)</P> <P>2. Ward</P> <P>3. Smite Prayer</P> <P>4. Oath Strike</P> <P>5. Inflame</P> <P>6. Therons</P> <P>7. Run Macro</P> <P>Hopefully get a heal in while group members legs it! The aggro issues seems to vary between encounters and is definately not the real issue. The real issue is as OP states - always power. </P> <P>Still - it makes it a bit more interesting!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Ansi]

<P>I chose Kasine's for two primary reasons:</P> <P>1. The extra hp and power it provides to healers MT, and myself (if MT on the raid) is quite respectable.</P> <P>2. Rarely, if you are tanking a raid (until the healing revamp maybe) will Theiron's generate near enough hate to make it worth much.</P> <P>Then again, I have Clarion Call (Master I) and Zealous Preaching at adept3 + ad3 buffs. Also, I built this mostly for raid utility, so perhaps in a pickup situation, Theiron's has the edge.</P> <DIV>As far as aggro-rips go, it is usually recoverable with both taunts and a buff, or two buffs and a taunt depending on recycles.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ansiri on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[Mad Marty]

<DIV>Well I seem to be on my own but I choose Arem's Divine Retribution. Its great for speeding up kills and also seems to generate a fair amount of hate in itself. I can often reclaim a target that has peeled of and do it some damge in one go.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

Doesnt Sworn Strike take the place of Arems? I'm not sure, since I went Kasine's, but I thought Arems was the training version of Sw Strike or Oath Strike. If its so, I would have never picked Arems. Sworn Strike is kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and it scales, so It will be useful for a few more lvls...and it can be upgraded. I could be wrong though. Mine does around 650 ish damage at adept III with a few dots afterwards, not sure though, is there 2 versions of Arems? <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Yrield]

Arem's is an advanced version of Oath Strike, from the description they share the same reuse timer (oath strike share the same reuse than sworn) so  the spell is good for 2.2 lvl or if you group alot with another paladins arem's and sworn stack well (like oath and sworn) IMO, arems wasnt an viable option, but hey its not my char after all ! <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P> </P> <P> I'm still very surprised at the lack of focus on the ability of Theron's to act as a taunt. I think that it's been decided that the two choices really boil down to kain's and Theron's, but to grab 10% of agro from evry group member when cast is a -huge- tool. Factor into that it's a basically an AoE taunt, unlike both our single target and 'grouped' mob taunts I would seriously consider Theron's as a factor if you've been noticing issues keeping agro in a group.</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[SanJ]

<P>Sadly enough, I went with Arems training upgrade to my Oath Strike because at the time I was duoing 70 percent of the time and trioing probably 20 percent of the time.  Additionally, coin was tight from purchasing a horse (don't do this with all your money guys/gals--work on your gear first and when you have excess coin then go for the horsie).  I can confirm that Oath, Sworn and Arems all share the same cast timer.  Incidentally, my philosophy for buying a horse was that I harvest a LOT (15-20 hours per week) so I figured the ability to get into tighter spots, cover more terrain would equate to more rares which would lead to more coin for upgrades.  I can't say that it wasn't a good choice simply because rares have been good to me and I have some nice equipment including two ebon pieces I harvested myself.</P> <P>Additionally, at level 47, Arems still does more damage then Sworn Strike at Adept 1, but the gap is closing very closely now.  Fortunately, I've saved my /respec so I will probably choose a different route now that I group together a LOT more (need to in the high 40's for XP--everything in EL and mostly Zek is gray @ 46, a massive part of Rivervale is gray @ 47, so to get XP at my level you need to be in Everfrost/Lavastorm and it's a solo unfriendly zone for the most part <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>All of the soloer's will notice a big change in the mid 40's where HP, equipment and aggro management are your highest priority when striving to be a successful tank.  Damage is still there but is much less significant when you have a big group with speciality DPS classes cranking out one or more thousand damage per single attack.</P> <P>I have held onto Arems for awhile since aggro management hasn't really been an issue thus far, but now that coin is back in my purse for a few adept 3 upgrades ... time to /respec</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote:<p>Sadly enough, I went with Arems training upgrade to my Oath Strike because at the time I was duoing 70 percent of the time and trioing probably 20 percent of the time.  Additionally, coin was tight from purchasing a horse (don't do this with all your money guys/gals--work on your gear first and when you have excess coin then go for the horsie).  I can confirm that Oath, Sworn and Arems all share the same cast timer.  Incidentally, my philosophy for buying a horse was that I harvest a LOT (15-20 hours per week) so I figured the ability to get into tighter spots, cover more terrain would equate to more rares which would lead to more coin for upgrades.  I can't say that it wasn't a good choice simply because rares have been good to me and I have some nice equipment including two ebon pieces I harvested myself.</p> <p><b>Additionally, at level 47, Arems still does more damage then Sworn Strike at Adept 1, but the gap is closing very closely now.  Fortunately, I've saved my /respec so I will probably choose a different route now that I group together a LOT more (need to in the high 40's for XP--everything in EL and mostly Zek is gray @ 46, a massive part of Rivervale is gray @ 47, so to get XP at my level you need to be in Everfrost/Lavastorm and it's a solo unfriendly zone for the most part <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b></p> <p>All of the soloer's will notice a big change in the mid 40's where HP, equipment and aggro management are your highest priority when striving to be a successful tank.  Damage is still there but is much less significant when you have a big group with speciality DPS classes cranking out one or more thousand damage per single attack.</p> <p>I have held onto Arems for awhile since aggro management hasn't really been an issue thus far, but now that coin is back in my purse for a few adept 3 upgrades ... time to /respec</p> <p>Thanks,Kalen</p><hr></blockquote>Fyi Kalen, at 47, you can still get some good xp in Cazic Thule with a duo/trio group. You will be able to solo the yard trash in the beginning, but not sure that is xp wise a good idea, since you will burn through power pretty fast. The Clay Golems, and the Lizardmen on the upper levels are around 45-48 ^^, with Glare Lords being 48-50^^.....in the lower area's you can get a bunch of 47-49^^ mobs that should be good xp at your level. I personally just hit 45 last night, but have spent a great deal of time leveling in CT the last week or so.</span><div></div>

[SanJ]

<DIV>Phov,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spent a ton of time in Cazic-Thule from 39-42 (not such a good level to MT there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but need to go back again and dig a little deeper down below.  I'm a few puzzle boxes short of Lizard Language (wife says I'm a few sandwiches short of a picnic so that's ok I guess <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of my guildies took a great screen shot of me MT'ing in Cazic-Thule one night.  A lizardman caster hit me with fear, ran me through a wall and down into a grid in the floor.  I tried everything to get out, but was absolutely stuck bouncing up and down in the grate.  Eventually, we had to evac and run back inside.  Of course, I didn't see the screen shot until a few days later.  The caption if you can't read it says "It keeps bouncing me up and down". - <A href="http://eol2.rbcb.net/screenshot/archives/view/138/" target=_blank>http://eol2.rbcb.net/screenshot/archives/view/138/</A></DIV> <DIV>Reliz (46 paladin in our guild), if you read this I owe you bro! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been planning a return for some time now, especially since I snagged the Screaming Mace heritage, so I'll probably head back there this weekend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV>

[SunT]

<P>Sanjun,</P> <P>I have been soloing alot in LS lately.  The lizards in the first area are usually trio's 42-43.  43 can hit me a few times so I have to heal once or twice while I fight them but I can do them.  42 are trivial.  .75 to 1% per kill.  Not bad.  I personally prefer to fight small groups rather than single ^^.  Kill one of 3 and reduce dps by 33%.  Longer you fight the easier the fight is.  ^^ have some sort fo enrage at the end and can beat me donw at the last minute and require a late heal.</P> <P>The area around CT isn't bad either.  Same level range.  You can zone out to CT if you get into trouble.  The Ambasador by the dock now gives a quest.  After you do it a few times he will give you mobs back by CT.  He pays 6.5 G repeatable for killing 7 of them.  Nice loot for killing time.  the valley after teh vrevice in the rock has well spread groups so few adds.</P> <P>In EF the Minitaurs aren't bad.  Got to watch for the lizards, they tend to be pretty tough for me.  So I pull the mini's out to the wall.  Nice loot there.  Vender trash is a couple gold.  And you can do the Icewell access quest while you solo.</P>

[Feralon]

<DIV>I know this is probably a bit of a newbie question:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you know you will always be duo'ing with a 2nd paladin should each make a different choice for these buffs?  Can you have mroe then one of these active on each each other if you have 2 paladins?</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote:<div>Phov,</div> <div> </div> <div>I spent a ton of time in Cazic-Thule from 39-42 (not such a good level to MT there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but need to go back again and dig a little deeper down below.  I'm a few puzzle boxes short of Lizard Language (wife says I'm a few sandwiches short of a picnic so that's ok I guess <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>One of my guildies took a great screen shot of me MT'ing in Cazic-Thule one night.  A lizardman caster hit me with fear, ran me through a wall and down into a grid in the floor.  I tried everything to get out, but was absolutely stuck bouncing up and down in the grate.  Eventually, we had to evac and run back inside.  Of course, I didn't see the screen shot until a few days later.  The caption if you can't read it says "It keeps bouncing me up and down". - <a href="http://eol2.rbcb.net/screenshot/archives/view/138/" target="_blank">http://eol2.rbcb.net/screenshot/archives/view/138/</a></div> <div>Reliz (46 paladin in our guild), if you read this I owe you bro! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>I have been planning a return for some time now, especially since I snagged the Screaming Mace heritage, so I'll probably head back there this weekend.</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Kalen</div><hr></blockquote>The getting feared and running through the walls event has happened a few times to me, now instead of just sitting there it will load you back at the entrance to CT...only thing to watch out for, is a couple times the mob zones in with you....lol GL out there Kalen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Sav]

<span><blockquote><hr>Darkith wrote:<div></div>Kasine's also only uses one concentration point, so you can have it on a few people if you aren't running your defense buff. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Darkith on <span class="date_text">05-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:21 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>This is the reason I no longer use Kasine's.  Being in a primary tank or second tank role on raids, it is necessary for me to be able to hold agro.  Using Benediction and Redemption eats up all of my concentration.  That said, Kasine's was an extremely useful tool for leveling.  Though, if I had the chance to respec, I would choose Theron's.  From my understanding of the spell text, it is a constant hate transfer in the way that Redemption is.  When I am tanking for raids, I always have either a 50 wizard (against fire mobs) or a 50 necro in my group (for buffs).  These serve as my hate leeches on which I cast Redemption. While tanking a particularly easy epic x 2 level 50 mob, I had no problems with agro.  I even instructed the necro, who had my Adept 3 redemption on him, to begin his new damage weave -- a method that he says can give him the most dps of anyone on the raid.  Once my Call to Glory faded, it took no less than 3 seconds for him to draw agro, with my taunts not being able to pull it back.  I had to blow Rescue to recover agro.  This observation is entirely in line with previous observations.  Hence I feel that Call to Glory, and thus Theron's, act as threat channeling mechanisms instead of simply a transfer-on-cast variant.  As a primary tank, I would thus choose Theron's if I had the chance to respec, especially since I have other paladins who can cast Kasine's on me.</span><div></div>