Proposed changes to Paladins...our future!

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The devs propose making us HEAVY tanks, along with Guardians. This means not only do we get our DPS nerfed, but also our Agility. In return, they will adjust us to be more inline with Gaurdians, which means better taunts, more mitigation, more hitpoints, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I need help. I do not wish to continue arguing our cause, unless this is truly what the Paladin community wants. I personally like Paladins the way they are, with some minor changes to our def buffs and our aggro skills. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How does the rest of the community feel?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Paladins have contacted me who are worried about the loss of DPS, because if were not the MT, then what is our role? to Rez? to DPS?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Paladins have contacted me and stated that they would rather give up the DPS and agi, so we can tank as well as Guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is your opinion? My posting has gotten the attention of some of the Devs. Lets capitalize on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way we can change our class is to do it together, guys. Strength in numbers!! please post your opinions! it takes 1 or 2 minutes, because these changes will affect us for a long time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>04-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 PM</span>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Im fine the way we are but also wouldnt mind being upgraded a little to be more in-line with Guardians, so far Paladins can tank any encounter as well as a Guardian if they know what they are doing and everyone with you is also capable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But there are problems, especially with our taunts, they seem too weak from mid 20's onwards, there are many times where you just cant put aggro back, use every taunt every ability on mob, heal person being attacked, rescue on mob, nothing happens <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not sure if this is a bug but I know Guardians have been able to hold aggro far better on groups of mobs. Issue that usually happens with me is I hold aggro fine till end and the last mob of a group always seems to go aggro a caster even with me chaining the group taunts throughout and using HOs constantly, not sure if this is a bug but its very annoying especially when that last mob of a group is a named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt mind being a heavier tank and losing a bit of avoidance to go more down the road of Mitigation atm we seem to have been mitigation nerfed, Iw as 56% mitigation before LU7 now 46% with same gear and stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Id like to go somewhere inbetween, not all the way to practically a Guardian but our Taunts need to be addressed, our dps isnt mega but lets not make it tiny like poor Templars, we often arent the main choice for raids, you wont be able to make a completly fair system where everyone can tank unless you only have the 4 baseic archtypes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So we need to keep some dps as its often our role as a support class being able to do lots of things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One main thing to really help us perform and bring more balance in would be to allow a Range slot item for Knights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Scouts can have a Range item, Fighters can except for Knights, why cant we? I dont see why not, the imbalance with stats here is very annoying and being able to have a bow would be great, for different styles of pulling, opening up a lot more worthwhile quests, and most of all to address the stats imbalance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also think Mages and Priests should be allowed a symbol type range slot item but thats an issue for another thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my vote would be to stick us somewhere inbetween going all the way with this closer to Guardian proposal, and staying pretty much as we are <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[TheSarge]

for the love of god... dont' take away my DPS!!! Don't Nerf the paladin! <div></div>

[Managal]

I'm a new pally, so I don't know what the end game is like.  But, I read the forums, and from what I understand, we can compensate for just about everything (with the right gear/team) except taunting.  If we could hold agro on major encounters, it would be better than less avoidance and more mitigation. <div></div>

[prisoner]

<P>I think the best things that can happen to the paladin class are two things.  First,  fix aggro in general.  It often seems buggy at best,  especially in situations where a tank unloads their taunts and still can't get aggro (common to all tank classes,  many discussions on other areas of this board).  Second,  from many threads here,  its apparent that paladins can tank fine in groups except for the situations named above,  and can tank raid mobs well,  but its said that we run out of power pretty fast and then we are sitting ducks.  I think we need some power efficient taunts.  Since we have to use buffs for half of our taunts and those buffs take a good chunk of power,  we burn through it fast.  Perhaps they can tone down the aggro on buffs themselves but increase the effectiveness of our pure taunts since they are the most efficient in terms of power usage.  </P> <P>I am a paladin and I wear heavy armor yes,  but I do not want to be a guardian,  else I would have created one.  </P> <P>-Increase taunt efficiency and effectiveness</P> <P>-Wards could use some looking into.  They are definate power hogs and as such should be much more useful than they currently are.  I have a feeling however that wards will be getting some love when they start to release the priest balancing,  since shamans are in dire need of ward love as well. </P> <P>-I am happy with our current dps but if its going to be nerfed (which seems the likely case) maybe we can compramise and get a boost when using a 2h instead when an offtank.  I don't mind being low dps with a 1h and shield if they do some work on taunts as stated above.  </P> <DIV>17</DIV>

[Awlis]

<DIV>Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be very upset if they moved us to be inline with guardians, if I had wanted to be top tank I would have played a guardian, I dont and I didnt so please dont change my class that radically when many of us are 40 and beyond.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I dont think there is anything that needs doing, you may think taunt is broke, however you arent designed to tank as well or taunt as well, cos we have heals dps and a squire! We cant expect as a community to have dps and heals and then ask for defense and taunt to be inline with a guard, that is real cake and eat it grass is greener stuff. All classes are to be 'balanced' this means we do one thing better and other things worse, I love where the paladin is, please please leave, if you want to tank like a guard then go make a guard, if you wanna tank like a guard dps like a pally and heal like a cleric then you are just asking way too much.</DIV>

[prisoner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Awlis wrote:<BR> <DIV>Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be very upset if they moved us to be inline with guardians, if I had wanted to be top tank I would have played a guardian, I dont and I didnt so please dont change my class that radically when many of us are 40 and beyond.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I dont think there is anything that needs doing, you may think taunt is broke, <FONT color=#ffff00>however you arent designed to tank as well or taunt as well,</FONT> cos we have heals dps and a squire! We cant expect as a community to have dps and heals and then ask for defense and taunt to be inline with a guard, that is real cake and eat it grass is greener stuff. All classes are to be 'balanced' this means we do one thing better and other things worse, I love where the paladin is, please please leave, if you want to tank like a guard then go make a guard, if you wanna tank like a guard dps like a pally and heal like a cleric then you are just asking way too much.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The highlighted line stuck out alot for me,  and I have to disagree.  Currently no,  we are not designed to tank or taunt as well,  but we should be.  It doesn't necessarly have to be done via armor mitigation or even defense buffs,  but we should all tank well and taunt well,  all tanks of all flavors.  So far we are in a pretty decent position,  I wont argue that,  but there is definate room for improvent for all tanks.  We don't want to tank "like a guard,"  we want to be as effective as one.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17</DIV>

[Azakiel]

<DIV>What prisoner 17 said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes our taunts are not as effective and yes our buffs and wards use up a lot of power. I find that simply altering my playing style slightly (buff and taunt and maybe some dps) while being the main tank keeps aggro just fine, so upgrading or making the taunts more effective will save us some power and will then move us closer to being a guard........should we give the guards some heals and wards?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like my class exactly as it is. Just hit 40 and still learning new tricks on how to get round the power issues and aggro management every day. I find it terribly boring standing at the front without even having to put some thought into keeping the aggro, conserving power and doing half decent dps at the same time - it's more fun if it's more challenging.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please fix all the problems with our existing combat arts and spells (and there is one almighty list of them) before even thinking of making game changing class changes!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whack Anything 40 Pally</DIV> <DIV>Neriak</DIV>

[Awlis]

<P>I have to disagree prisoner, if we get to tank as well as guards then they should get to heal as well as us, you gain in one area to lose in another, you must see it can't be balanced or fair if we get to do as well as what is meant to be the top tank in tanking as well as being able to heal and do good dps. If we do it as well you have to ask the question... why be a guardian, when you can be a paladin tank as well and heal??</P> <P>Similarily we cant complain about our dps and want equalling out with warlocks and assasins. I feel the paladin is a well balanced class, please leave it alone.</P> <P>Lastly re taunts, its my opinion that often it poor play by other people in the party that cause taunt issues. I recently had a wiz that kept on getting aggro.. why? she was aoe the group as I pulled it in, solution told her to back off on nukes till I had good aggro, gave me 15 secs when I reached fight spot to get aggro then let off, healing aggro can similarly be reduced by self healing in the middle or at the end of taunts, I have little problems with aggro once I let the overnuker die a couple and then politelty point out the aggro issue is theirs and not mine!!</P>

[Troodon]

I can apprecaite where you're comming from Awlis, for short fights we are fairly well rounded though not without problems, but its when you begin to start fighting protracted combats be it on raids or against particular mobs which take time to bring down that the flaw in our design become apparent: we have a restricted number of taunts and have rely upon buffs/heals/wards for their hate generation effect. Everyone uses such, but at least in my experience Crusaders have to rely upon such much more significantly. The problem with routinely relying upon buffs etc for hate management is that its a hardly power efficient strategy, hence the truism that Paladin's are sprinters, that we burn through power. If Paladins were simply Guardians-lite with heals, then it would be a problem if we were boosted in such aspects to the level of the Guardian. However, even beyond the difference that we cant dual wield etc etc. they dont have gaping holes where we get abilities, they have slows, power drains, groupwide buffs and significantly more taunts. The problem with such discussions is that we players are party to so little information about what the devs intend, so arguing based on the current status quo is awkward, we can only state our case, try to highlight our problems and hope that when the dust settles that everything is ok. For some reason Paladin's dont seem to be very vocal on the forums and thus Im very grateful to Uzhiel for taking a stand. Often we're dismissed as the noob-class with vague handwaving about being holy warriors. There seem to be many misconceptions about what we can and cant do, about the effectiveness of our abilities even amoung the self touted spokesmen for the other classes. This is a problem because when it comes to ballancing such half informed off the cuff remarks are taken into account if they're not rebutted. But anyway, personally on the whole I would agree that we're well rounded, however our fundemental flaw is our hate management. <div></div>

[prisoner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Awlis wrote:<BR> <P>I have to disagree prisoner, if we get to tank as well as guards then they should get to heal as well as us, you gain in one area to lose in another, you must see it can't be balanced or fair if we get to do as well as what is meant to be the top tank in tanking as well as being able to heal and do good dps. If we do it as well you have to ask the question... why be a guardian, when you can be a paladin tank as well and heal??</P> <P>Similarily we cant complain about our dps and want equalling out with warlocks and assasins. I feel the paladin is a well balanced class, please leave it alone.</P> <P>Lastly re taunts, its my opinion that often it poor play by other people in the party that cause taunt issues. I recently had a wiz that kept on getting aggro.. why? she was aoe the group as I pulled it in, solution told her to back off on nukes till I had good aggro, gave me 15 secs when I reached fight spot to get aggro then let off, healing aggro can similarly be reduced by self healing in the middle or at the end of taunts, I have little problems with aggro once I let the overnuker die a couple and then politelty point out the aggro issue is theirs and not mine!!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I find it disturbing that you continue to believe that we shouldn't be able to tank as well.  ALL should be able to tank well,  just in different manners.  A guardians superb defensive buffs and skills allow him to finish a fight alive.  A paladins heals and wards allow him to finish a fight alive.  It doesn't matter if we take the bus or a plane,  as long as we reach the same destination.  There shouldn't ever be a question as to choose one tank over another.  It shouldn't be "oh crap no guards around,  we can't raid/group" ,  it should be "Oh cool (tank class inserted here) just logged in,  lets go raid!"</P> <P>No paladin's here are wanting to compare to warlocks or scouts.  Thats rediculous.  I agree that our dps is fine the way it is,  but fighters as a whole are going to take a drop in their dps,  its inevitable.  Scouts have been complaining much too long that fighters are out-damaging them,  and they have a right to be upset.  We shouldn't be gimped,  but we probably shouldn't be where we are at either.  Finding the right balance for both is the challenge.</P> <DIV>Finally,  there IS an issue with aggro and its buggy.  Its not always someone being incompitent.  I have tested it myself,  as have many others throughout these boards.  Its not just paladins,  its all tanks.  Fixing that will help out alot.  Sometimes people in your party will get aggro for no apparent reason and its nigh impossible to get it back until the mob is dead.  If you have an idiot wizard nuking before you are ready for them to,  thats a whole other issue.  I think that we should indeed have to work and be vigilant in keeping aggro,  but we shouldn't have to power dump in order to get aggro once lost,  and sometimes we lose it all to easily.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My main point is this:  Different but equal,  and thats what we should strive for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17</DIV>

[steventhearmy70]

<DIV><FONT color=#336600 size=5><STRONG>My opinion is that I think its wrong to take away from a class.  You have been paying money to play as that character and putting in alot of time and then to have him all of a sudden not do what he has been doing is wrong.  I think they should make it as even as possible, but make only by adding to the classes, not taking away.  This maybe dumb, but i think of it as buying a car, you love your car, driving it, and then all of sudden, the dealership takes the car back and takes away horsepower.  Then gives it back to you, dont think you'd be a happy camper.  I love being a Pally, lvl 41 here, just dont like the fact every week it seems, that we get weaker and weaker.  Just my 2 cents.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>

[Seomon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you're like the monk troll, Gage? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But seriously, personally I'd rather be close to where we are now. We aren't Guardians, because they have more +Defense than we can get, meaning they take less damage. We take more damage, but that's why we get our heals. I have 2 issues (right now) since we're basically going to be comparing ourselves to Guardians now:</P> <P><STRONG>Aggro Management and Power</STRONG></P> <P>We cannot hold aggro like a Guardian can without spending vast amounts of power, and even then we're not as good at holding aggro. I am constantly taunting (all 2 of them), buffing (generally just use 2), warding (+hate plus the ward aggro), shield bashing (+hate and a whole 20 damage), and healing (rarely use heals for +hate unless I'm raiding). Everything except for the taunts take up a ton of mana, and that's just not right. Our heals should probably be toned down some (except for the insta-heal line, it needs a huge bump), and cost a lot less mana, and our buffs and wards should definitely cost less mana.</P> <P>I could really care less if our DPS dropped if I see power costs reduced so we can actually last a whole fight without going oop without ever using a combat art. In a raid situation as the MT, I never use combat arts anyways, and our solo would basically stay the same if our heals cost less power.</P>

[Belgor]

<DIV>Yes, I want us to be a preffered tank as guardiansare now, but not neccessarily against the same encounters. Could be us being preffered to single targets and them to multiple targets or whatever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I chose the fighter archtype to tank, not to do dps. And I cant believe anyone choosing a paladin if they wanted dps.</DIV>

[Karlen]

I think Paladins are well balanced now.  It is true that our taunts are a bit weak but we have lots of other advantages and weak taunts generally don't prove to be an insurmountable problem. On the other hand, changes are coming: DPS "adjusting/balancing", possible changes to wards, possible changes to mitigation.  If changes in some abilities require changes in the others, I don't have an issue with that.   It is impossible to say whether the changes are good until we have seen them and can compare them to changes in other classes. Paladins are not guardians.  But I would hope in the end that we could tank pretty much anything that they can, and vice-versa.  Also, balancing could mean increasing or decreasing.  The nominal or absolute level of power/ability doesn't matter -- only the overall level of power as compared with other classes/sub-classes and npcs.   <div></div>

[trout]

<P>In short, I prefer to be left as is. </P> <P>I may be in the minority but I like playing the role of off tank. I enjoy the versitliy of our skills and being able to contribute dps in a meaningfull way.</P> <P>I like the way my character solos.</P> <P>I rarley have argo managment issues but admittadly, I'm only lvl 30 now and therefor no expirence in endgame content. At this point in my game I have yet to see a gaurdian signifigantly out perform me as a MT. However as I said before, given the choice I will OT for a gaurd of equal lvl, gear, knowledge. It just seems to me that as an OT the gaurd brings very little to the table in comparison to a pally.</P>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I have read through most of the proposed changes  / rants and discussions and really in the end it boils down to 3 things:<b> </b><span></span> <blockquote> <p><b><font color="#ffff00"><span>1</span></font> - Wards to be actually useful in absorbing damage.</b>As it stands they are really good for regaining agro - but that's about it... a high power taunt that doesn't do enough to warrant its power cost.</p> <p><b><font color="#ffff00"><span>2</span></font> - A re-evaluation of agro and how it works</b>If we are going to loose some DPS - fine but I don't want to have to spam taunt (with our two taunts)  and have agro snatched away from us every time the mages fire a nuke off.  Some way of "taunting buff" which continues for a few seconds after each taunt where our damage counts for DOUBLE the hate would be ideal</p> <p><b><font color="#ffff00"><span>3</span></font> - The ability to use our spells in a MT role as well as in an off-tank role.</b>If we loose the ability to cast spells (this includes heals) whilst Main tanking because of continual interrupts would basically be the worst thing that could be done for the class… I was outraged when the philosophy “get hit more for less damage” came out and wearing heavy armour would hinder our ability to avoid interrupts. Thankfully Kite shields have made us more effective at avoiding blows – although rightly I am keeping a VERY close eye on the test server. And my ranting discussions have dwindled since this news came out.</p> </blockquote> <span>Frankly I don't care if we lost half of our DPS... as long as this did not cause even MORE agro problems than we already face (<font color="#ffff00"><span>#2</span></font>) as long as I can perform <font color="#ffff00"><span>#3</span></font> in combat do whatever you want to our mitigation / avoidance scores.  <font color="#ffff00"><span>#1</span></font> would be pretty useful but we have lived without wards since we hit 25 and we can live without them for a bit longer. In truth I believe Paladin's will see little of the combat changes we were never really "the best" in anything - our power heavy abilities are a nice way to keep that in check - we have to choose every spell wisely and in truth that is the best thing I like about the Paladin. If <font color="#ffff00">#3</font> is possible after the re-balance and we can still hold agro... pffft then we are O.K. </span><span></span><blockquote></blockquote><div></div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>04-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR><BR> <P>So you're like the monk troll, Gage? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>OMG I'm famous!! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Nathayle]

<P>I really hope they dont make drastic changes to our class.  I realize that it can be a problem holding aggro in many cases, but that can be fixed by adjusting our taunts.  Somone had a great idea when they said that if they had to adjust our dps, at least give us a bonus when using 2 handed weapons.  I have always thought that carrying a shield should give a better raise to deffense anyway.</P> <P>I believe that if surveyed most paladins would say that they are happy overall with the class as it is, aside from the hate problem and the power draining wards and such.  </P> <P>I know that this is probably not an issue to most of you, but I'm wondering how any changes will effect our chances in arena combat/pvp?  I know that we don't know that it will happen, what with the vague referances to indirect pvp and such, but im curious.</P>

[AlleySpa]

<P>I believe it's as simple as:</P> <P>A).  Fix our taunts.  It's infuriating that a guard 6+ levels below me can pull aggro with one taunt and I spam but can't get it, this hurts us as off-tanks/secondary tanks.  Most mobs in the game are generally evil you are telling me that the paladin a true symbol of a holy warrior can't annoy these evil based mobs, instead he's totally ignored.</P> <P> </P> <P>B).  Our power costs are ridiculous as many have stated before, our wards/heals are suppose to make up for our short comings in avoidance and mitigation yet using these will drain us before the mob is even half dead. (at least most lvl.50 mobs)</P> <P> </P> <P>Other than these two things i'm very happy with my pallie, however these things hurt us the most, as is we currently  take more damage than warriors as well as use more power that's a huge imbalance.</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Better taunts</P> <P> </P> <P>More Power Efficent spells atm some are very in-efficent, I dont cast lots of mine because they are so poor in mana:dmg ratio.</P> <P> </P> <P>Let us use bows, missing the range slot hurts <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[HellRaisinWench]

<P>I've spent alot of time gettin my pally up to 46... along the way i've found thati'm a betta bakup tank, then i am a main... Don't get me wrong, when the time comes, i can tank most things...but we aren't main tanks,we are there to help the party with our buffs, add sum healin in, whilst doin a bit of damage... </P> <P>When i grp, its normally with a lvl 50 zerker as MT, i've had times,by not doin anything getting aggro (if sum1 can explain this be welcome)... As a class atm we are preety good, yeah boost taunts, change sum lvls of power consumption, or give us more power... </P> <P>I remember when i was in my teens and mid 20'smost grps, wanted a pally... but at higher lvls most grp don't want us because we have no set area(ie. dps, healing etc...) If u wanna do sumthin for us leave us as is with slight changes to taunts...or aleast make the squire useful, ie. so he can ATTACK... atm he just stands there like a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] doll....</P> <P> </P> <P>Just my two cents worth... but hey two cents is betta then a fist full of nuthin...</P>

[prisoner]

<DIV>I think heals are pretty well balanced at the moment.  One heal fixes several mitigated hits while one ward blocks one/most of one,  and both are roughly the same power usage.  I don't mind heals being a little power heavy cause they are actually useful,  and we are not a priest after all.  I know this isn't eqlive,  but I remember that high level paladins had some great spot heals but they were mana heavy.  I wouldn't mind if things went in the direction later on down the line <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17</DIV>

[Oakbr]

<DIV><EM>Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>/AGREE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't broke.  Please don't "fix" us.  Farghus is only level 36, but he can do everything I like to do, and he does it well.  I don't even bother with my wards...for the same amount of power, I can heal more than the ward would aborb.  The only time I ever have difficulty with aggro is in a multi-mob encounter, with an overzealous DPS type...and even then, I can usually switch targets and pull aggro back where it belongs.  For that matter, I rarely run low on power in Tank mode.  Procs on my BP, Legs, and Weapon seem to help with aggro.  Given that SOE seem to have the "fecal touch" (everything they touch turns to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]), I really, reallly, don;t want them to start messing around with pallys.  Liable to have us all wearing dresses and singing "Kum Ba Yah" instead of Tanking.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Thx for the replies!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill turn my energies to arguing your points. It seems the majority of the posters want our DPS to stay the same, and just want slight improvements to our aggro. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that Moorgard stated that we're being adjusted down to Guards, but I think most of are concerned that they will break the class by doing so.  Compared to other classes, Palys are pretty well balanced. Lets keep it that way</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</DIV>

[eyes007]

<DIV>Don't you think the classes are starting to get out of control in terms of "balance". I mean Guardians should never have been given dual wield (and please don't look at this Sony nerfers, I don't begrudge them or want it taken off them). Hmmmm...To some the argument might be different but for me our only problem was taunts and we are meant to be the middle of the road between Guardians and Berserkers. Now I know Zerkers have better damage and probably pull more agro but Guardians shouldn't have similar if not better DPS NOW than rather after the nerf. Using my two hand Fulginate Imbued when my Guardian friend uses his PGT and something else, if we both fought with the same type of mob side by side, the DPS is wayyyyyy too balanced, especially when the Guardian kills faster while my mobs HP goes down in chunks due to the Oath Strike line (or it's equivalents) and etc. Giving us more mitigation or hitpoints or whatever (even taunts) doesn't make us that much better in a group, it just means we are secondary in choosing of tanks to Guardians. Sigh...if any Guardians read this I have the utmost respect for your class, I just really hate being relegated to second place without a choice.</DIV><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Chyld]

hm.. people seem to be commenting on our aggro management, and our power consumption.. but really.. aren't those points rather connected? we use our heals and buffs to hold aggro, and to allow ourselves to tank.. the way the system is set up now, guards are better at taking damage with passive buffs, we take a more active approach and use heals to make up for the increased damage we take.. (and also to generate more hate) if the power cost on our abilities were adjusted slightly, to take this into account, and to make up for the fact that we're using these spells to make up for something that a guardian just innately does, without spending in combat power, (for the most part), i think our hate management would be much improved. (not that i think it's -all that bad- now, but i do agree that we do have issues with power consumption) as far as the rest of our arts/dps.. i don't think our actual dps is really all that high.. more that we have several abilities that deal decent damage, on long refresh timers.. which gives us good burst dps, and if the fights over in that time.. wow, we look good for the parsers.. but if the fight lasts awhile, all of a sudden, you realize, we really don't have much dps, it just appears that way for quick kills.. if they want to lower our damage arts slightly, but reduce the power cost and refresh times, i don't really see a problem with that.. it would hurt us slightly in high dps groups (ie, when the mobs are going down quick) but, for sustained damage, and for solo stuff, you wouldn't see a difference.. as for all the arguing over who should tank better.. really, with the archetype system, all fighter types should be able to tank.. i think it's ok to see variations against different types of mobs, or different types of healers.. but really.. if you picked a fighter, you should be able to tank, the means to that end should just be different, and i'd assume most people that started a pally expected to be able to tank, but realized they would have to be a bit more active in thier approach.. which is fine, but when being active drains you dry halfway through a fight, while someone else can just stand there and taunt every now and then, still tank the mob and end the fight with most of thier power.. that doesn't seem very balanced.. I don't want to be a guardian, i enjoy playing an active tank role, i can even accept that i migh not be an ideal choice for raid encounters, but in group situations, i expect to be every bit as viable as any other tank.. just as i'd expect the same from any other fighter type <div></div>

[Quai Chan Ka]

Im play a templar as a main and most of the tanks in my guild are pallys and in all honesty i dont want u guys to change, i like pallys just the way they are :smileyhappy:

[Troodon]

The problem is that change is comming Quai, whether its wanted or not. We can either sit silent and let the opinion of others shape our future with half informed off the cuff remarks or try to form a concensus on what issues we have and how we would like to develop. <div></div>

[Danz]

<P>Please, PLEASE, just leaves the pallys alone, I just recently rerolled from my guardian because i hated it, dont drag me back down to that level again, i dont want to be a freakin guardian with a horse and some wards, tell SOE to keep it the same, and if we want to hold aggro better, give our spells the same effect of hate that generates from healers spells:smileytongue:</P> <P>~just leave us as we are SOE, thats all im askin</P> <P> </P> <P>~32 Guardian</P> <P>~27 Paladin</P> <P>~27 Fury</P>

[MeridianR]

I guess the answer to this question will be different depending on the style people like: I<b>f you like to group:</b> Less DPS and more aggro If you get into good enough groups you will never be dealing damage other then the initial pull anyway, so why care. <b>If you like to solo:</b> Keep us the way we Personally I like to do a little of both, but currently I can solo mobs who are yellow while half asleep, and orange mobs without much issue....so yes I believe we are doing to much dps for a non-monk fighter.. In groups with a Warlock, or a Wizzy with everything upgraded it is almost impossible to get aggro back if you lose it to them....using Taunt(s), call to glory, heals, wards, rescue, redemption, shield AoE's, etc....I have posted numerous times on what my pull method is, but even with that if the casters grab aggro, us Paladins are calling for EVAC more often then naught. So my suggestions: -- Lower our DPS to just above Guardians -- Raise our Defense to just below Guardians -- Give us a ranged slot item (not weapon) that gives us at least some stats.

[Coril]

<P>Another echo - leave pallies as they are.  They are fine for solo and group, with an understanding that they are not designed to be the main tank in the group.</P> <P>If pallies get changed, does that mean that SK, the evil counterpart, would be changed as well?  </P>

[Awlis]

<DIV>BUT if you want better taunts and better tanking then become a Guardian.. they the top tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cant see why yet again we want to become a watered down second assist...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what wrong with how we are now?? some of us like the dps and abiltiy to tank well in most situations.. again if you want to tank the best and taunt the best go play a guard.. if not be happy with the way we are.. we are so well balanced.</DIV>

[Avigat]

<P>Leave us alone.</P> <P> </P> <P>That is all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Caud]

All I really want is the ability to taunt.  We take a hit virtually as well as a guardian now, and I don't expect to be as efficient in the power department, but I do expect to be effective.  Let me sum up the posts I'm seeing. Level 25 paladin alt, guardian main, general max/min uber dork that "knows" what the classes roles are supposed to be cause they said so:  Paladins are fine don't change them, omg lol!!1!   Guardians are supposed to be the only tanks on raids, my mom said so.   I have no basis for this, but I like to say it a lot.  On a raid templars are the only ones that can heal, and warlocks are the only ones that can do damage too.  The holy trinity existed in everquest 1, and it sucked for that, so it must be in this game too, heck it has everquest in the title.  None of these wildly inaccurate and baseless posts are out of self interest or lack of experience beyond level 35 when the game starts shifting either, because I read a forum about a 50 paladin once so I know how they play.  Level 50 PLD: I can burn a whole mana bar (which goes real fast trying to dump agro spells) and not hold agro even when people are trying to keep it off themselves and I'm doing stupid crap like using a level 11 spell(redemption adept III), therefore I can't tank.  There is text indicating both that paladins are a tank and all archetypes should be able to fill their role.  Until it is physically possible to fill the role the rest is moot. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Awlis wrote:<div></div> <div>BUT if you want better taunts and better tanking then become a Guardian.. they the top tanks.</div> <div> </div> <div>I cant see why yet again we want to become a watered down second assist...</div> <div> </div> <div>what wrong with how we are now?? some of us like the dps and abiltiy to tank well in most situations.. again if you want to tank the best and taunt the best go play a guard.. if not be happy with the way we are.. we are so well balanced.</div><hr></blockquote>...because the end game being full scale raids = no room for a Paladin. So for anything that requires more then 6 people, unless the group needs filler, be prepared to be a Priest Rez'er and thats about all.    </span><div></div>

[SunT]

<P>Make me a better tank.</P> <P>I wear Plate.  I am a tank.  I don't want to be a Guardian.  I like having heals, rezs etc and like the concept of a Paladin.  </P> <P>But I want cheaper more effective taunts.  Better aggro managment and want to be able to withstand an incredible amount of damage.  And in the rare event if a Necro pulls aggro, I want to taunt the dude off instead of mashing every key and swearing at the machine as I watch him die.</P> <P>I am absolutely comfortable with less DPS and more tanking prowess.</P> <P>For those of you who will say make a Guard, why don't you make a Warlock?  </P> <P>Who made their Pally for the DPS?  Our DPS is a bonus.  </P> <P>I made a Pally to be a tank.  He is now an awesome group tank and a decent raid tank, I want him to be better at both.</P> <DIV> <P>I want to be a tank.  Take my DPS.  Make me a better tank.</P></DIV>

[Belgor]

<DIV>All you people saying you want pallys to stay the way they are need to understand that all fighter dps is getting nerfed. So if we dont get apropriate changes to the tanking ability, I fear we are going to be incredibly useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I say it again.... our dps is NOT staying the same, since both scouts and mages are supposed to outdamage us. So why not instead of crying about the changes try to get us better tanking abilities?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said in my last post... you dont choose a paladin if you want to be dps, do you?</DIV>

[Avigat]

<P>I guess its just me, but I don't compare myself to other classes.  I dont compare myself to other paladins. </P> <P>I compare myself to the content.  IMO, we are in a good position comparative to the content.</P> <P>I could give 2 [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]s if someone does something better than me, I get groups with friends, not with people who pick the uberest classes available to fill spots.</P> <P> </P> <P>I agree we have a tougher time with aggro than other tank classes, but guess what, aggro is a 2 way street.  People you group with need to learn to manage their aggro just as we need to work on ways to maintain that aggro.</P> <P> </P> <P>Like I said, in my opinion, we are in good shape.  Now if you want to complain, complain about EQ1 pallies.  I should know, spent 5 years and 70 levels as one.</P> <P>You guys just don't know how good we have it now.  Please stop begging for a nerf.</P> <P> </P> <P>Wex</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Avigator on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[SunT]

<P>I agree avigator, we are very well suited to current content.</P> <P>The issue is the coming changes.  They will come whether we act or do not.  We will be different in the end.  It has been clearly stated.</P> <P>The question is, which way do you want us to be different?  </P>

[Coho1]

Leave us alone or fix broken spells. I solo or duo alot so I think its fine. I don't MT unless forced to. I think we are better OT as we do alittle of everything. If you want  guardian stats roll a guardian. I want differences in classes and races. Weaker, stronger, smarter, less wise, more agile, It makes for variety and real feel.   Ever played D&D games? Its the figuring out  how to make a group work the best that adds to it.

[Cu]

<P>Please dear SOE Gods no, don't turn us into guards. Please, please don't. The reason I'm a pally is because I do not want to be a helpless piece of meat the mobs beat on and all I can do is taunt, taunt, taunt. I don't mind to tank occasionally but in groups I prefer to be the secondary tank.. Putting out some nice DPS, healing, warding, handling adds. When tanking I usually feel like I'm only using half my abilities if not less.  </P> <P>I don't care that our aggro management isn't as good as guards, I can still keep aggro just fine, also on epic mobs. Sure it's easier (and less power-consuming) for a guard, but hey they're guards, they're designed to tank and pretty much useless off-tanking, so they SHOULD be better at tanking. Pallies are Pallies, Guards are Guards. Let's just leave it at that.</P>

[jshari]

Here is my 2c As paladins are vvery balanced i think we should be right smack in the middle... med migatation and med Dps I am ok if the make a crazy tank, but im afriad well end up a 2nd class tank no one wants.. i hope they dont mess this up. cuz i do like tanking <div></div>

[jshari]

sorry i just wanted to add that we need a better role in raids... <div></div>

[Yrield]

Take out our dps ? Just out of curiosity, did someone ever parsed a Guardian MT over a Paladin MT in raid situation vs the same mobs with the same raid setup ? Im pretty sure they can out dmg us. Just because they dont have to spam taunt like we do. In fact i <i>can't</i> use any combat arts while tanking in raid because a) if i stop the taunt cycle i loose aggro. b) if i use combat arts i run out of power. I feel like we are more "meatshield" than guardian while tanking in raid... maybe im wrong ? <div></div>

[Valian1]

<DIV>I think that paladins should be left alone atm. I dont Paladins to be changed toward the lines of a Guardian, well, because I am not a guardian. Paladins already canT do ranged attacks and cant dual-wield. So i say dont nerf the DPS of us, add some item into ranged slot so we can get some buffs, not a lot but atleast some. And improve our taunt abilities a bit. Thats what i think. GO PALADINS!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>     Valian - 44 Paladin - Unrest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Valian164 on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

Again as I stated above, with the Fighter DPS Changes coming up, and the increased DPS from Scouts, Enchanters, etc...we are going to need better aggro management...at higher levels with people who are maxxed out, it is getting hard to pull aggro off of high end DPS Classes.... If you get aggro in the beginning and continue to hold it, then yes we are fine....as long as we have some type of power regen (From Fury, enchanter, etc), since we do burn fast....but have a Warlock with Adept 3 or Master Damage Spells, go nuke happy and have fun trying to get aggro from them... With the new changes, and Scouts having more dps, Paladins are going to have to make sure that our party doesn't cast for at least 10 secs, so we can get off our full round of buffs/wards/taunts, to hold aggro...and then hope we can keep it. For people who duo, or trio, then yeah I can understand the frustration with a DPS nerf, but if you get into a full group with huge aggro generators, who have all Adept3 and Master attacks, have fun trying to keep up....so maybe you will try to use redemption on the warlock right?....well how...3 slots for Benediction (or Shining Beacon, etc), 1 Slot for our Kasine's Enlightened Piety) and 1 left....redemption costs 2......getting rid of the buff, means getting rid of a lot of defense (from avoidence, etc)... I agree that solo'ers should be looked at also, but then at Level 50 what is there to do in the end game for a solo'er? This game is built of high end raids being the end game...and as I stated above, unless stuff changes we are going to be stuck in a group with the priests, simply rezzing them...   <div></div>

[Avigat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>The issue is the coming changes.  They will come whether we act or do not.  We will be different in the end.  It has been clearly stated.</P> <P>The question is, which way do you want us to be different?  </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, I can agree here.</P> <P>Ive spoken out against the combat changes, as have many others, but as we know, SOE will do whatever it pleases.</P> <P>Since I dont play on test (maybe I should), I'm not certain how things will effect us.  Even for those on test, I'm sure that there will be more changes and tweaks as they try to fine-tune the system.</P> <P>I also agree that its good to be proactive, however without knowing exactly how we will be affected its tough to know what we will need.</P> <P>That said, I also agree that if other classes get DPS boosts and we get DPS nerfs, we WILL need more aggro generation at the very least.  As we all know, our aggro is marginal as it is now.</P> <P>I am just happy with how my pally plays now (Albeit a bit [Removed for Content] about the avoidance nerf) and really dont want to go back to the EQ1 pally prototype.  (If so, why not just go back to EQ1?)</P> <P> </P> <P>I found a class that I enjoy playing and now sony is doing their best to [Removed for Content] the hell out of it again.  One of these days i'll learn my lesson <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Wex</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Caud]

There are a lot of posts here, still, that begin with "well I'm 31 and I like to solo/duo/harvest and I never mt because I don't like to so we're ok throughout the entire game because everything is cool here at T3!!lolol!1!1!!!" Show me anywhere it is stated by anyone that matters "Guardians are supposed to always be the main tank and a better tank".  You can check easily enough for information to the contrary in the FAQ, and class description on the official site, among a host of others.  Mob mentality and group think, kudos to all the muppets. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caudex wrote:There are a lot of posts here, still, that begin with "well I'm 31 and I like to solo/duo/harvest and I never mt because I don't like to so we're ok throughout the entire game because everything is cool here at T3!!lolol!1!1!!!" Show me anywhere it is stated by anyone that matters "Guardians are supposed to always be the main tank and a better tank".  You can check easily enough for information to the contrary in the FAQ, and class description on the official site, among a host of others.  Mob mentality and group think, kudos to all the muppets. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure I 100% Understand what you wrote, but I believe it to be my viewpoint...at end game we need to be better tanks....or I might have mistaken what you were saying...not sure.    </span><div></div>

[Yrield]

Really, I just hope they dont screw us bad. If they want us to be a pure tank, fine, but i want to do the job as good as a guardian, i dont want to be the useless 2nd best. Right now, if a guardian loose aggro and hit a taunt, he can expect to see the mob turn around and face him again. If i loose aggro, hit clarion call i can't expect that... <i>not even in dream. </i>If i hit clarion call, zealous preaching, courageous dash, sworm strike, refusal of grace and maybe call to glory, I can <i>hope</i> to see the mob turn around and face me again. Power wise: 51+26+99+127+101+122= 526 pts just to take back aggro and somewhat secure it. SOE vision: 1.Guardian = Paladins, 2.Berserkers = SK, 3.Bruisers = Monks  ... with a small gasp between 1 and 3... dunno how soe define "small" I'm afraid they just take out our dmg and dont change much the rest of our skills and say: "ok guys, now you are  defensive tank" Of course <i>some</i> guardians dont like it and the usual: -Why make a guardian, if an other fighter can tank just as well ? Just ask yourself and use your common sense here, <i>why this game  have 6 subclass if only one can do the job ? </i>- I rolled a guardian to tank, i dont want no one else to tank like me because i can't solo, heal, ward, FD, invis, DPS, LoH, lifetap, evac,rez, etc... <i>That is the biggest lie i ever heard. Right now on Live guardian are the best soloer in the fighter arch. plain and simple, a well geared 50's Paly can expect to solo up to 47^^, an average geared 50's Guard can solo up to 49^^, why ? defence buff turn them in a virtualy lvl56 guard. Heal ? useful at best nothing game breaking here. Ward ? Yes they were useful in my Crusader time and yes i still use ward...never in combat... i use ward to open chest when there no scout around <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>. FD ? oh yes very useful when tanking... Invis ? Dont work with mob over lvl42 and yet again, no big deal for a tank. LoH ? bwahahaha <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. lifetap ? useless and power consuming. evac ? useful to travel i guess, but with 6 types of scouts with evac + wiz, no one will pick an SK just to evac. Rez ? yes best rez in the game, Dirge get that one too and NO its not a tradeoff over +28 def/5 taunt/dw/ranged slot/etc. </i>Guard have exploited the system for over 6 months now, its time for other fighter to have luv now. I rolled a paly to tank btw, not to be a rez bot <span>:smileyindifferent: And no i dont want to be a guardian with a different set of animation, I want to be a Paladins, have my own tanking style and achieve the same result in a different way. That all</span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>OK guys..im just reading some of your replies so I can get some ammo..You'll be seeing a posting explosion real soon...im just gathering data. :smileytongue:</P> <P>The calm before the storm. </P>

[Oakbr]

<i> With the new changes, and Scouts having more dps, Paladins are going to have to make sure that our party doesn't cast for at least 10 secs, so we can get off our full round of buffs/wards/taunts, to hold aggro...and then hope we can keep it. </i>DPS types should be doing that anyway.  I play two mains...Pally and Warlock,  so I understand both roles reasonably well.  As a Warlock, my job is to use the first 10 seconds or so of combat to cast my debuffs while the tank (whatever class) builds aggro.  If I don't do that, I'm gonna die.  I'm especially gonna die if I drop my big nuke on incoming--at adept 3, Dark Distortion can hit well over 800 damage.  No tank in Norrath is gonna save me in time if I'm that stupid.  It's further proof that Darwin was right. As a pally, I'll do whatever I can to save an overzealous DPS type the first time.  Sometimes even blow LoH on them, to get aggro back to me.  When that fight is over, I'll then explain that they need to give me a few seconds to build aggro.  If they don't listen, they will die, and we'll see about rezzing them after the fight.  They do that kinda thing too often, and I'll either be booting them or asking whoever is the leader to do it. Tanks tank.  Nukers nuke.  Healers heal.  Rangers die <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If the group is going to work, everybody has to play their role, and work together to manage aggro.  The duty is shared among all group members.  Even the best tank can't save an idiot all the time.  Most of us get tired of trying eventually.

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Oakbrow wrote:<i> With the new changes, and Scouts having more dps, Paladins are going to have to make sure that our party doesn't cast for at least 10 secs, so we can get off our full round of buffs/wards/taunts, to hold aggro...and then hope we can keep it. </i>DPS types should be doing that anyway.  I play two mains...Pally and Warlock,  so I understand both roles reasonably well.  As a Warlock, my job is to use the first 10 seconds or so of combat to cast my debuffs while the tank (whatever class) builds aggro.  If I don't do that, I'm gonna die.  I'm especially gonna die if I drop my big nuke on incoming--at adept 3, Dark Distortion can hit well over 800 damage.  No tank in Norrath is gonna save me in time if I'm that stupid.  It's further proof that Darwin was right. As a pally, I'll do whatever I can to save an overzealous DPS type the first time.  Sometimes even blow LoH on them, to get aggro back to me.  When that fight is over, I'll then explain that they need to give me a few seconds to build aggro.  If they don't listen, they will die, and we'll see about rezzing them after the fight.  They do that kinda thing too often, and I'll either be booting them or asking whoever is the leader to do it. Tanks tank.  Nukers nuke.  Healers heal.  Rangers die <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If the group is going to work, everybody has to play their role, and work together to manage aggro.  The duty is shared among all group members.  Even the best tank can't save an idiot all the time.  Most of us get tired of trying eventually. <hr></blockquote>In a perfect world, yes that is true....but we all know how perfect this world is eh <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 6 out of 10 times, you get a group that knows how to wait for the pull, etc..and life is good... 3 out of 10 times, you get a group that is over zealous, and pulls before you are done taunting...so you tell them to hold off (even put that in your pull macro) and everything is fine. 1 out of 10 times, you get a group that doesn't listen until they wipe, and start blaming you for not holding aggro.... Just an example, but a lot of times this is what happens....I find it mainly happens from warlocks/wizards nuking to fast, or Furies/Wardens (since there heals generate a ton of aggro) who heal before the second taunt comes up...... </span><div></div>

[Aaldarr]

<DIV>I am quite satisfied with the current status of my lvl 44 Paladin.  I tend to solo most of the time and what little dps I can do, I am happy with.  I do believe there are still some fine tuning issues with the Paladin class, (some useless spells for example) but overall, I think we do just fine in most situations.  If I had wanted to be a heavier tank, I would have become a Guardian.  </DIV>

[Coho1]

 I see some late game folks seem to need/want changes so they can MT better.  Maybe SOE should just give more powerful low 40's to 50 taunts. I can see where the aggro issues hurt them.  Maybe an option that defines solo player/duo from raid players. You pick one option you get more powerful taunts..or another option increased DPS..or another option increased heals. <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Coho1 on <span class=date_text>05-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 PM</span>

[CobraN]

<DIV>All i can say is please please leave us how we are if i wanted to tank as well as a guardian i would of chose 1, i love the way the pally can fill multiball roles, tank, offtank, dps, heal if needed, ward and rez, yes we cant tank as well as other tanks, but i dont expect too as we have all of the above to offer to the group. At the moment we can fill a spot in any group, i dont want to be stuck in a mt roll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for for aggro, i dont find a problem with it, i have tanked lvl 50 epic x2 mobs fine, yes i do lose aggro, from time to time, and yes a guardian would do a better job as the raid mt but we can still do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CobraNeo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lvl 50 pall splitpaw</DIV>

[AlleySpa]

<DIV>I Just don't see why our DPS would have to be lowered, in order to make us better tanks?</DIV> <DIV>When tanking my DPS is near non existant due to defensive buffs and the trade off of a two-hander to one-hander and shield.</DIV> <DIV>So why nerf our DPS, it's not like we come close to straight DPS classes.  How does fixing our taunts equal an even trade-off too lower DPS?</DIV> <DIV>Just fix our taunts and i'll be satisfied.  If they raise our mitigation what's the purpose of our heals/wards?  I don't want to be a guardian.  And i've come to the realization that scouts aern't just DPS, and same with the other classes, you won't see a swash hitting as hard as a assasin but swashes are better utility, warlocks can't provide utility like a necro, so i've come to the realization that we can't tank raid mobs like a guard, but they can't heal, rez, DPS or have as wide a selection of buffs like we do.</DIV> <DIV>Bottom line u want to just tank.....make a guardian.</DIV> <DIV>(The comparison of if we want to be DPS make a warlock is silly they can parse at 400 per second we are know way on that level even a minor nerf of our DPS will be severe.  I've played soe games enough to know what to expect with nerfs).</DIV>

[AlleySpa]

Sry for the lack of paragraphs it looks kinda jumbled but what can I say...The boards own pwned me.

[Talbot]

<DIV> <DIV>The crossroads cometh....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins currently are probably the most well thought out of the class with the exception of a clear perspective.  Based on our current skills, we are supposed to be a MT dependant on the groups and classes involved.  Yet another battle we may be an off tank that helps distribute agro for the group.  I.e. our hate transferance.  As SOE will never state their clear vision of what the paladins purpose was truely in the beginning you can only make assumptions as to our main role and our various utilities. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly, I want to give a scenario and you will see our purpose.  Raid group one: MT - Guardian, Off tank - paladin, Utility/DPS - dirge/troubador, Main healer - Templar, Secondary healer - Warden, DPS/Resists - Mage.  In this group our role would be to put redemption on 2 of the main agro producers thus lowering them to a level easier for the MT to maintain agro and at the same time be the main rezzer.  In a raid situation should the MT having someone able to take a few hits and rez the MT to 40% Health and 40% power.  With 40% power he should have little trouble regaining agro.  As the paladin, is absorbing a large portion of the hatred produced by the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THe above scenario is rarely used as most paladins don't make use of their spells efficiently.  I.e. the paly would rather use the STR and proc buff rather than use redemption on 2 of the other players.  But our MT role is drastically changed when another fighter is introduced.  As many of them have better taunts or agro production than us even if we are main tanking we can lose agro UNLESS we swap our redemption target.  Based on this information, we can assume we were not meant to be agro producers.  We are meant to disperse agro and use that as our agro management.  Sadly, our base agro production does not outweigh others overall production.  How were we supposed to make up for this?  I have point out one of my methods before, leading the group with an HO on out DoT following that with our divine debuff, then finishing with oathstrike.  Many say it doesn't work.  SO far I would say roughly 90% ratio at the very least.  THis method is very much an agro producer.  Lets take a look at want is going on.  Step one: Start HO; Step 2: Implaccable Wrath - This keeps a steady damage flow while your next step is being casted; Step 3(Finish of HO): Group Taunt AND Divine debuff - THe finihs of this ho adds a small amount of damage as well as a small knockdown in most cases Also debuffs are allways an excellent source of agro production; Step 4: Oath Strike - From the previous divine debuff AND the knockdown we tend to do the most damage possible and a big hit is always an agro producer.  When you couple the above chain with redemption on a heavy agro producer you will have plenty of agro to hold you for a little while.  But it does break every now and then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the coming changes this is going to affect us in a dramatic sense and a fairly well rounded tank class is going to become broken beyond belief.  ALl of these changes are due to lack of understanding on the dynamics of a class AND devs not fixing things tobegin with.  Rather than get the system working as they originally intended by using small changes they are making grand leaps that totally through classes and the game out of whack.  THis is not the first time a game company has done this.  Every Game company out there so far that has produced a MMORPG has done the exact same thing.  Rather than make small adjustments from the mob perspective and the class perspective they grab the nerf stick and start swinging.  THis is not totally unjustified.  Myself, I am an old school PK from back in UO.  THis is where we took the tools the devs gave us and learned to utilize them to the most benifit.  Sadly, the largest majority of the population is not able to do this.  THey want it easy, they don't want to have to use their brain.  IMHO(if you fit this build of person) there are other games more suited to you.  I am not saying that anyone is any better or any worse just saying, trying to say everyone is the same is ridiculous.  Everyone plays various games for enjoyment.  But if you are having a problem with a given class, might it be the method that you are using to play that character. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So with all the above said, and we know the changes are coming, a few things that will HAVE to happen in order to bring us in line with guardians.  </DIV> <DIV>#1 Our heals and wards need their power usage looked at</DIV> <DIV>#2 Our group agro transferance needs to be beefed up</DIV> <DIV>#3 redemption needs to be reduced from 2 concentration to 1</DIV> <DIV>#4 taunts needs to be looked at after 2 and 3 are met because based on our overall dynamic playstyle these being our main agro management tools they need to be worked on first and foremost.  I want to keep our ability of transferance RATHER than lose it.  Agro production is over rated IMHO transferance is much more versitile.</DIV> <DIV>#5 DO NOT TOUCH OUR REZ - Having a tank with this ability is a godsend to the MT group in raids.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div> <div>The crossroads cometh....</div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins currently are probably the most well thought out of the class with the exception of a clear perspective.  Based on our current skills, we are supposed to be a MT dependant on the groups and classes involved.  Yet another battle we may be an off tank that helps distribute agro for the group.  I.e. our hate transferance.  As SOE will never state their clear vision of what the paladins purpose was truely in the beginning you can only make assumptions as to our main role and our various utilities. <font color="#ffff00">Exactly, we do not have a clear cut vision from SOE on what Paladin's are supposed to be. If we are not supposed to be MT's, then really we need more useful utility spells that will make us wanted/needed in large raids....other then our rez...A 500 point Ward against an Epic x 4 is going to do nothing, except drain our power...Our heals (I have Devout Aid Adept 3) are decent, but again they cost a lot of power...which I guess is a decent tradeoff of having them because well, we are not full priests...If we are supposed to be able to be MT's then we need to have the aggro management system looked at, to at least balance out the power of the taunt to the power we spend.....Like it or not, we are going to get a DPS nerf, as will Monks, as will Zerkers, etc...fighters as a whole are doing more damage then scouts..which should not be the case. If you as MT were given the choice of a L42 Wizard or L43 Swashie, who would you choose?...personally since Wizards have evac, I am going with them, since there DPS is head and shoulders above Swashies....</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Firstly, I want to give a scenario and you will see our purpose.  Raid group one: MT - Guardian, Off tank - paladin, Utility/DPS - dirge/troubador, Main healer - Templar, Secondary healer - Warden, DPS/Resists - Mage.  In this group our role would be to put redemption on 2 of the main agro producers thus lowering them to a level easier for the MT to maintain agro and at the same time be the main rezzer.  In a raid situation should the MT having someone able to take a few hits and rez the MT to 40% Health and 40% power.  With 40% power he should have little trouble regaining agro.  As the paladin, is absorbing a large portion of the hatred produced by the group. <font color="#ffff00">I agree our Rez is nice, heck I believe it to be nicer then any priest rez there is, so I have no argument there.....normally though in Epic raids, the Paladin is in a group with all priests, or priests/dps, in case there needs to be a rez of the priests...</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>THe above scenario is rarely used as most paladins don't make use of their spells efficiently.  I.e. the paly would rather use the STR and proc buff rather than use redemption on 2 of the other players.  But our MT role is drastically changed when another fighter is introduced.  As many of them have better taunts or agro production than us even if we are main tanking we can lose agro UNLESS we swap our redemption target.  Based on this information, we can assume we were not meant to be agro producers.  We are meant to disperse agro and use that as our agro management.  Sadly, our base agro production does not outweigh others overall production.  How were we supposed to make up for this?  I have point out one of my methods before, leading the group with an HO on out DoT following that with our divine debuff, then finishing with oathstrike.  Many say it doesn't work.  SO far I would say roughly 90% ratio at the very least.  THis method is very much an agro producer.  Lets take a look at want is going on.  Step one: Start HO; Step 2: Implaccable Wrath - This keeps a steady damage flow while your next step is being casted; Step 3(Finish of HO): Group Taunt AND Divine debuff - THe finihs of this ho adds a small amount of damage as well as a small knockdown in most cases Also debuffs are allways an excellent source of agro production; Step 4: Oath Strike - From the previous divine debuff AND the knockdown we tend to do the most damage possible and a big hit is always an agro producer.  When you couple the above chain with redemption on a heavy agro producer you will have plenty of agro to hold you for a little while.  But it does break every now and then. <font color="#ffff00">I have listed my pull steps many times, and 90% of the time I do not have aggro problems in a single group unless someone goes nuke happy...which is controlable...to take it a step further, I always wait to cast Call To Glory until after my aggro generation is complete, just to give it an extra 5%....by that time, Noble Tone is back up and that gets used again....unless I am needed to do DPS the only thing I do when I am a MT in a group of 6 is generate hate...our nukes cost to much precious power in a longer fight to be casting them over and over, and for the little dps (which both our high end nukes provide) we waste 10% power, when a Wiz/War can do that damage in 1 spell...</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>With the coming changes this is going to affect us in a dramatic sense and a fairly well rounded tank class is going to become broken beyond belief.  ALl of these changes are due to lack of understanding on the dynamics of a class AND devs not fixing things tobegin with.  Rather than get the system working as they originally intended by using small changes they are making grand leaps that totally through classes and the game out of whack.  THis is not the first time a game company has done this.  Every Game company out there so far that has produced a MMORPG has done the exact same thing.  Rather than make small adjustments from the mob perspective and the class perspective they grab the nerf stick and start swinging.  THis is not totally unjustified.  Myself, I am an old school PK from back in UO.  THis is where we took the tools the devs gave us and learned to utilize them to the most benifit.  Sadly, the largest majority of the population is not able to do this.  THey want it easy, they don't want to have to use their brain.  IMHO(if you fit this build of person) there are other games more suited to you.  I am not saying that anyone is any better or any worse just saying, trying to say everyone is the same is ridiculous.  Everyone plays various games for enjoyment.  But if you are having a problem with a given class, might it be the method that you are using to play that character. <font color="#ffff00">For some people yes they might not know how to play there class...and Paladin's have got a bad rap for that, since once people get burned more then once with a Paladin as a MT, they generally don't like picking up Paladin MT's again....I don't know how many times I have been denied a group initially because I was a Paladin, yet 30 mins later the group is commenting in GroupChat that I am doing a great job etc....I am sure others here have had that same stigma cast onto them....</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>So with all the above said, and we know the changes are coming, a few things that will HAVE to happen in order to bring us in line with guardians.  </div> <div>#1 Our heals and wards need their power usage looked at <font color="#ffff00">Agree 100%, but believe this will not be lowered to much, or we will get nerf calls from Priests...</font> </div> <div>#2 Our group agro transferance needs to be beefed up <font color="#ffff00">Agree 100% again, but it needs to be inline with all of the fighter changes. Don't make me a guardian, but allow me to be able to tank higher end content, if we are needed to.</font> </div> <div>#3 redemption needs to be reduced from 2 concentration to 1 <font color="#ffff00">Your on a roll <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> </div> <div>#4 taunts needs to be looked at after 2 and 3 are met because based on our overall dynamic playstyle these being our main agro management tools they need to be worked on first and foremost.  I want to keep our ability of transferance RATHER than lose it.  Agro production is over rated IMHO transferance is much more versitile. <font color="#ffff00">This and #2 go hand in hand...</font> </div> <div>#5 DO NOT TOUCH OUR REZ - Having a tank with this ability is a godsend to the MT group in raids.  </div> <div><font color="#ffff00"> I could see how a Paladin in the MT Group in a Raid might be interesting, but unless we get some more useful utility spells I am not sure this is a very feasable thing in the current game.</font> </div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div> <div>The crossroads cometh....</div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins currently are probably the most well thought out of the class with the exception of a clear perspective.  Based on our current skills, we are supposed to be a MT dependant on the groups and classes involved.  Yet another battle we may be an off tank that helps distribute agro for the group.  I.e. our hate transferance.  As SOE will never state their clear vision of what the paladins purpose was truely in the beginning you can only make assumptions as to our main role and our various utilities. </div> <div> </div> <div>Firstly, I want to give a scenario and you will see our purpose.  Raid group one: MT - Guardian, Off tank - paladin, Utility/DPS - dirge/troubador, Main healer - Templar, Secondary healer - Warden, DPS/Resists - Mage.  In this group our role would be to put redemption on 2 of the main agro producers thus lowering them to a level easier for the MT to maintain agro and at the same time be the main rezzer.  In a raid situation should the MT having someone able to take a few hits and rez the MT to 40% Health and 40% power.  With 40% power he should have little trouble regaining agro.  As the paladin, is absorbing a large portion of the hatred produced by the group.</div> <div> </div> <div>THe above scenario is rarely used as most paladins don't make use of their spells efficiently.  I.e. the paly would rather use the STR and proc buff rather than use redemption on 2 of the other players.  But our MT role is drastically changed when another fighter is introduced.  As many of them have better taunts or agro production than us even if we are main tanking we can lose agro UNLESS we swap our redemption target.  Based on this information, we can assume we were not meant to be agro producers.  We are meant to disperse agro and use that as our agro management.  Sadly, our base agro production does not outweigh others overall production.  How were we supposed to make up for this?  I have point out one of my methods before, leading the group with an HO on out DoT following that with our divine debuff, then finishing with oathstrike.  Many say it doesn't work.  SO far I would say roughly 90% ratio at the very least.  THis method is very much an agro producer.  Lets take a look at want is going on.  Step one: Start HO; Step 2: Implaccable Wrath - This keeps a steady damage flow while your next step is being casted; Step 3(Finish of HO): Group Taunt AND Divine debuff - THe finihs of this ho adds a small amount of damage as well as a small knockdown in most cases Also debuffs are allways an excellent source of agro production; Step 4: Oath Strike - From the previous divine debuff AND the knockdown we tend to do the most damage possible and a big hit is always an agro producer.  When you couple the above chain with redemption on a heavy agro producer you will have plenty of agro to hold you for a little while.  But it does break every now and then.</div> <div> </div> <div>With the coming changes this is going to affect us in a dramatic sense and a fairly well rounded tank class is going to become broken beyond belief.  ALl of these changes are due to lack of understanding on the dynamics of a class AND devs not fixing things tobegin with.  Rather than get the system working as they originally intended by using small changes they are making grand leaps that totally through classes and the game out of whack.  THis is not the first time a game company has done this.  Every Game company out there so far that has produced a MMORPG has done the exact same thing.  Rather than make small adjustments from the mob perspective and the class perspective they grab the nerf stick and start swinging.  THis is not totally unjustified.  Myself, I am an old school PK from back in UO.  THis is where we took the tools the devs gave us and learned to utilize them to the most benifit.  Sadly, the largest majority of the population is not able to do this.  THey want it easy, they don't want to have to use their brain.  IMHO(if you fit this build of person) there are other games more suited to you.  I am not saying that anyone is any better or any worse just saying, trying to say everyone is the same is ridiculous.  Everyone plays various games for enjoyment.  But if you are having a problem with a given class, might it be the method that you are using to play that character. </div> <div> </div> <div>So with all the above said, and we know the changes are coming, a few things that will HAVE to happen in order to bring us in line with guardians.  </div> <div>#1 Our heals and wards need their power usage looked at</div> <div>#2 Our group agro transferance needs to be beefed up</div> <div>#3 redemption needs to be reduced from 2 concentration to 1</div> <div>#4 taunts needs to be looked at after 2 and 3 are met because based on our overall dynamic playstyle these being our main agro management tools they need to be worked on first and foremost.  I want to keep our ability of transferance RATHER than lose it.  Agro production is over rated IMHO transferance is much more versitile.</div> <div>#5 DO NOT TOUCH OUR REZ - Having a tank with this ability is a godsend to the MT group in raids.  </div> <div> </div></div><hr></blockquote> Just to be sure, everyone need to understand where we go 1. EVERY fighters DPS potential will be lowered 2. EVERY fighters can be MT for 1 to 49, no one can argue on that, a well played paladin is a fantastic tank in any kind of group 3. At 50 thing change, right now there is only one choice for that MT spot ...<b> completly unchallenged</b> So what do we want ? stay the same counting ourself lucky to have being able to do such a great job for 1 to 49  and be graceful to have that sweet rez bot spot in raid at 50 ? Or we can ask for what we deserve...balance in the high end</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yrieldom wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div> <div>The crossroads cometh....</div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins currently are probably the most well thought out of the class with the exception of a clear perspective.  Based on our current skills, we are supposed to be a MT dependant on the groups and classes involved.  Yet another battle we may be an off tank that helps distribute agro for the group.  I.e. our hate transferance.  As SOE will never state their clear vision of what the paladins purpose was truely in the beginning you can only make assumptions as to our main role and our various utilities. </div> <div> </div> <div>Firstly, I want to give a scenario and you will see our purpose.  Raid group one: MT - Guardian, Off tank - paladin, Utility/DPS - dirge/troubador, Main healer - Templar, Secondary healer - Warden, DPS/Resists - Mage.  In this group our role would be to put redemption on 2 of the main agro producers thus lowering them to a level easier for the MT to maintain agro and at the same time be the main rezzer.  In a raid situation should the MT having someone able to take a few hits and rez the MT to 40% Health and 40% power.  With 40% power he should have little trouble regaining agro.  As the paladin, is absorbing a large portion of the hatred produced by the group.</div> <div> </div> <div>THe above scenario is rarely used as most paladins don't make use of their spells efficiently.  I.e. the paly would rather use the STR and proc buff rather than use redemption on 2 of the other players.  But our MT role is drastically changed when another fighter is introduced.  As many of them have better taunts or agro production than us even if we are main tanking we can lose agro UNLESS we swap our redemption target.  Based on this information, we can assume we were not meant to be agro producers.  We are meant to disperse agro and use that as our agro management.  Sadly, our base agro production does not outweigh others overall production.  How were we supposed to make up for this?  I have point out one of my methods before, leading the group with an HO on out DoT following that with our divine debuff, then finishing with oathstrike.  Many say it doesn't work.  SO far I would say roughly 90% ratio at the very least.  THis method is very much an agro producer.  Lets take a look at want is going on.  Step one: Start HO; Step 2: Implaccable Wrath - This keeps a steady damage flow while your next step is being casted; Step 3(Finish of HO): Group Taunt AND Divine debuff - THe finihs of this ho adds a small amount of damage as well as a small knockdown in most cases Also debuffs are allways an excellent source of agro production; Step 4: Oath Strike - From the previous divine debuff AND the knockdown we tend to do the most damage possible and a big hit is always an agro producer.  When you couple the above chain with redemption on a heavy agro producer you will have plenty of agro to hold you for a little while.  But it does break every now and then.</div> <div> </div> <div>With the coming changes this is going to affect us in a dramatic sense and a fairly well rounded tank class is going to become broken beyond belief.  ALl of these changes are due to lack of understanding on the dynamics of a class AND devs not fixing things tobegin with.  Rather than get the system working as they originally intended by using small changes they are making grand leaps that totally through classes and the game out of whack.  THis is not the first time a game company has done this.  Every Game company out there so far that has produced a MMORPG has done the exact same thing.  Rather than make small adjustments from the mob perspective and the class perspective they grab the nerf stick and start swinging.  THis is not totally unjustified.  Myself, I am an old school PK from back in UO.  THis is where we took the tools the devs gave us and learned to utilize them to the most benifit.  Sadly, the largest majority of the population is not able to do this.  THey want it easy, they don't want to have to use their brain.  IMHO(if you fit this build of person) there are other games more suited to you.  I am not saying that anyone is any better or any worse just saying, trying to say everyone is the same is ridiculous.  Everyone plays various games for enjoyment.  But if you are having a problem with a given class, might it be the method that you are using to play that character. </div> <div> </div> <div>So with all the above said, and we know the changes are coming, a few things that will HAVE to happen in order to bring us in line with guardians.  </div> <div>#1 Our heals and wards need their power usage looked at</div> <div>#2 Our group agro transferance needs to be beefed up</div> <div>#3 redemption needs to be reduced from 2 concentration to 1</div> <div>#4 taunts needs to be looked at after 2 and 3 are met because based on our overall dynamic playstyle these being our main agro management tools they need to be worked on first and foremost.  I want to keep our ability of transferance RATHER than lose it.  Agro production is over rated IMHO transferance is much more versitile.</div> <div>#5 DO NOT TOUCH OUR REZ - Having a tank with this ability is a godsend to the MT group in raids.  </div> <div> </div></div><hr></blockquote> Just to be sure, everyone need to understand where we go 1. EVERY fighters DPS potential will be lowered 2. EVERY fighters can be MT for 1 to 49, no one can argue on that, a well played paladin is a fantastic tank in any kind of group 3. At 50 thing change, right now there is only one choice for that MT spot ...<b> completly unchallenged</b> So what do we want ? stay the same counting ourself lucky to have being able to do such a great job for 1 to 49  and be graceful to have that sweet rez bot spot in raid at 50 ? Or we can ask for what we deserve...balance in the high end</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Balance is all that I want, I would like to be able to be the MT in a raid if we want, without jeopardizing the other 23 people in the raid with me.....or if the Guardian falls, I want to be able to take over the MT role for a couple mins, without draining my power and again putting the Raid group at risk of a wipe.</span>

[SunT]

Redemption on Two toons is a great concept but they broke this a few weeks ago.  Now when you cast it the second time it takes it off the first person, then you have to re-cast to get it on the second still leaving you with one redemption. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless they re-changed this very recently.</DIV>

[Xlap]

probably not broken. lots of concentraion buffs are like this now, they probably only wanted you to use it on one character in the first place

[Yrield]

IMO, redemption should take only 1 concentration and usable on 1 group member only (multi redemption is way too powerful) IMO again, there is a design flaws with our concentration. while MT you want to use 1 stance(3), 1 buff(1), 1 redemption(2), but you can't, you have to [Removed for Content] yourself to generate more hate.... i dont see the point here. No other subclass have to make this kind of choice. Hold the Line anyone ? <span>:smileymad:</span> <div></div>

[ChuMann]

<P>hmmm..... very interesting post..... here's my two cents worth</P> <P>I totally understand the frustrations with aggro management, power drainage, semi-broken spells, etc., but I love my paladin.  Do i want better taunts?  Yes.  Do i want more HP?  Yes.  Do I want less power to be used?  Yes. But of all the things I want, I am cautious to ask for them.  This is mostly because SoE tends to overcompensate for issues that players say need "fixing".  Because of this, I say leave us the way we are.  As I see it we are THE most balanced class in the game, and I don't want to challenge that standing. What some people tend to forget is that every class is broken or lop-sided in one way or another (read the post about a warden soloing/tanking lvl 50 mobs).  To me, the paladin is exactly what i envisioned before i started playing one.  I chose the pally because I wanted to play EQII in many different ways, and I can do that (unlike almost every other class).</P> <P>All I am saying is please think about what you're asking for.  If they increase one dimension of the paladin, they'll take away from another.  I, for one, want to stay balanced.</P> <P> </P> <P>40 Paladin, HIghkeep Server</P>

[Pidgeon]

<DIV><FONT size=5>Leave us alone, Paladins are the best class in the game (IMHO)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>We arn't as tough as Guardians, but we have spells.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>If you make us as tough as Guardians, you will have to either :</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>Remove some of our spells, or give the Guardians, some DPS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5></FONT> </DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pidgeon wrote:<div><font size="5">Leave us alone, Paladins are the best class in the game (IMHO)</font></div> <div><font size="5"></font> </div> <div><font size="5">We arn't as tough as Guardians, but we have spells.</font></div> <div><font size="5"></font> </div> <div><font size="5">If you make us as tough as Guardians, you will have to either :</font></div> <div><font size="5"></font> </div> <div><font size="5">Remove some of our spells, or give the Guardians, some DPS.</font></div> <div><font size="5"></font> </div><hr></blockquote>For people who want to solo, duo and single group all the time, Paladins are a very wise choice, yes. ...but when every Paladin hits 50, what do we do then? Roll another toon to actually have an end game... That is the fundemental problem, we have no role in the end game, which are raids.    </span><div></div>

[Harmless No]

<P>Thanks Uzhiel for being the point man on this. I agree with most everyone that they Devs should address the problems with power and aggro without changing us into Guards and nerfing our DPS and heals, etc. If we wanted to be Guards, we would have signed up as one. I became a Pally because of the versatility. Maybe we can't strait up tank as well as a guard, as some say, but there are a number of things we can do that they can't. </P> <P>Maybe it's true that we lose at a bit at endgame, groups prefer the guards to tank as of now, but if the Devs address the concerns posted here that will hopefully change. Someone mentioned that "it doesn't matter if you take a car or a train, as long as you get there." I agree with that. Guards and Pallys should both be able to tank well, but they should have different ways to do it. Guards get the mitigation and we get the other stuff, just let us be able to keep aggro and not run out of power. Just my 2cp.</P> <P>Thanks again for the efforts. Please keep us posted on anything you hear from Moorgard and the boys. </P>

[Awlis]

<P>I think again we need to think long and hard about what we ask for here....</P> <P>rememebr the question isnt what do we want? so whilst it may be true that we need better taunts cheaper power spells etc etc this isnt actually on offer, what is is a lowering of our dps for an increase abilty to tank.. i.e. making us more like Guards.</P> <P>Now as we atm have healing, we can't be guards with healing, thats unbalancing, where do you intend to take another blow to make you less than a guard in some area? we cant have the same dps, same defensive, same ability to tank and then expect to heal ontop of it? thats plain unfair.</P> <P>Whilst the endgame is raiding (less so it seems and has been stated in eq2) , on most raids there is only one MT.. yes off tanks and maybe tank orders, but how many people do you need to fill this role? if guards pally and Sk can all do equally well then you may well be in the line to tank but you may never get to do so.. would be better surely to add dps and extra healing? and also be able to off tank too? I have no problem letting someone else tank main boss mobs and mash thier taunt key, as long as I can tank ok in groups and single group boss mobs... which we can.</P> <P>I lived through previous pally 'nerfs' where the paladin community made rash descions purely based on their play style which in the end wasnt the best for paladins as a whole (thinking of slay undead scaling with fury of the ages), remember too that paladins tend not to be a vocal lot, we don't get things changed like the great warrior PoK sit down. (which btw was a result of hybrid tanks actually being able to do better than warriors for the first time in 60 odd levels)</P> <P> </P> <P>we have been given a balanced well thought out class, we should be happy.. still a resounding leave us alone for me, personally my role in raids will be to dps and heal, there are enough people in most guilds lining up to tank as guards.</P>

[Khar Ni]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span>For people who want to solo, duo and single group all the time, Paladins are a very wise choice, yes. ...but when every Paladin hits 50, what do we do then? Roll another toon to actually have an end game... That is the fundemental problem, we have no role in the end game, which are raids. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>See the problem is that the "end game" and raids is such an incredibly small portion of the entire game that any changes that boost us in raids but take away from our regular grouping prowess is absolutely unexceptable to alot of us. I purposely chose a paladin because they were obviously a utility tank. I wanted to be flexable in the role i could play in a group and knew full well that it meant i wouldnt be the best at any 1 single role. A jack of all trades but master of none, so to speak. Anything that changes that style of play is not something that should be supported by the paladin comunity.

[Boli32]

<div><b>#1 Our heals and wards need their power usage looked at</b></div> <> <blockquote>I've been VERY careful about saying "give us better heals", there are a few aspects of healing which could use some looking at - the lay on hands line for instance which becomes less and less the "oh crap" and more the "meh might as well" as the % of health it heals at later levels is ... well pathetic. As for wards - yes they do need a huge look into it... they are just not worth casting for warding damage purposes after lvl 25  - all that remains then is they become a very expensive taunt. On the whole though our heals are not MEANT to be power efficient - our standard heals are just meant to be a stop-gap in our taunting / tanking and to this end the "blessed aid" line of heals perfroms this job admirably - If you want a more power efficient heal there is allways the lvl 30 training option is pretty nice. <font color="#ffff00">+ Agree that our Wards need to be looked in terms of Man useage (or fixed perhaps)</font> <font color="#ffff00">+ Agree that some of our heals need to be looked into (lay on hands line)</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ff9900">-  Don't Agree on the making our heals more mana efficient as a whole - they are fine the way they are.</font> </blockquote> <b> #2 Our group agro transferance needs to be beefed up</b> <blockquote>Warriors just find agro managment too easy,  Beserkers grab agro off you without even trying and guardians can easily snatch the agro back with a couple of taunts - Crusaders especially can burn half their power pool to regain agro  -if they can at all. <font color="#ffff00">+  Agree our agro management skills (hate production and hate transferance need to be looked into</font> </blockquote> <b> #3 redemption needs to be reduced from 2 concentration to </b>1<> <div> <blockquote>Strangely I like the way we have the "choice" with this have our buff and proc up... or cast redemption - it is a very powerful combat art - I only try to use it if one person in particular snags the agro - it gives us tactics we can use - and it isn't just cast all good buffsto get ready for action... it is stop... think what is the best buff combination to have up in this fight.  - Paladin's are an extremly flexible class and just this decision we have to make on ourselves personifys this... reducing it to conc. 1 will take away that. <font color="#ff9900">- Disagree this will take away tactical choice made in any group.</font> </blockquote> <b>#4 taunts needs to be looked at after 2 and 3 are met because based on our overall dynamic playstyle these being our main agro management tools they need to be worked on first and foremost.  I want to keep our ability of transferance RATHER than lose it.  Agro production is over rated IMHO transferance is much more versitile.</b></div> <div> <blockquote>Not much i can add here... if All tanks are balanced  then all tanks should have balanced ways of holding agro, one single class should not even have to use one of his MANY taunts in a fight and if we loose agro in a fight burning half our power pool to regain it is hardly a fair advantage. <font color="#ffff00">+ Agree Hate transferance is vastly more useful</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">+ Agree Agro management needs to be looked into</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font></blockquote> <b>#5 DO NOT TOUCH OUR REZ - Having a tank with this ability is a godsend to the MT group in raids. </b> <blockquote>This is hardly game breaking - healers give rez stones away as if they were candy <font color="#ffff00">+  Agree - keep Rez it does no-one any harm and a nice perk.</font> </blockquote> <div align="center"><i>Change is coming... lets hope we can ride out the storm.</i> </div> </div> <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Awlis wrote:<div></div> <p>I think again we need to think long and hard about what we ask for here....</p> <p>rememebr the question isnt what do we want? so whilst it may be true that we need better taunts cheaper power spells etc etc this isnt actually on offer, what is is a lowering of our dps for an increase abilty to tank.. i.e. making us more like Guards.</p> <p>Now as we atm have healing, we can't be guards with healing, thats unbalancing, where do you intend to take another blow to make you less than a guard in some area? we cant have the same dps, same defensive, same ability to tank and then expect to heal ontop of it? thats plain unfair.</p> <p>Whilst the endgame is raiding (less so it seems and has been stated in eq2) , on most raids there is only one MT.. yes off tanks and maybe tank orders, but how many people do you need to fill this role? if guards pally and Sk can all do equally well then you may well be in the line to tank but you may never get to do so.. would be better surely to add dps and extra healing? and also be able to off tank too? I have no problem letting someone else tank main boss mobs and mash thier taunt key, as long as I can tank ok in groups and single group boss mobs... which we can.</p> <p>I lived through previous pally 'nerfs' where the paladin community made rash descions purely based on their play style which in the end wasnt the best for paladins as a whole (thinking of slay undead scaling with fury of the ages), remember too that paladins tend not to be a vocal lot, we don't get things changed like the great warrior PoK sit down. (which btw was a result of hybrid tanks actually being able to do better than warriors for the first time in 60 odd levels)</p> <p>we have been given a balanced well thought out class, we should be happy.. still a resounding leave us alone for me, <b>personally my role in raids will be to dps and heal, there are enough people in most guilds lining up to tank as guards.</b></p><hr></blockquote>Can you out DPS a Warlock or Wizard, or buff like an enchanter or bard? Can you heal like a L50 Priest? The answers to the above are all no, so by your same reasoning, since we can't out DPS/Heal/Buff why would we even be needed for raids? Simple like stated numerous times, to be a rez bot.....and even then Dirges get the same exact skill....and we can't debuff/buff as well as them. To me it seems we got shafted, Berserkers well out DPS us in raids, and Guardians well out Tank us in raids....in normal groups that is fine, since we have the best of both worlds, and its easier to hold aggro on single heroic encounters...but in Raids (the end game) we provide nothing more then a small addition to the party...meaning hey if there is a Paladin around and we need an extra body, sure come along....but if its between a Bard, Chanter, Sorcerer and a Paladin..we get the short end of the stick.   </span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Khar Nihj wrote:<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span>For people who want to solo, duo and single group all the time, Paladins are a very wise choice, yes. ...but when every Paladin hits 50, what do we do then? Roll another toon to actually have an end game... That is the fundemental problem, we have no role in the end game, which are raids. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>See the problem is that the "end game" and raids is such an incredibly small portion of the entire game that any changes that boost us in raids but take away from our regular grouping prowess is absolutely unexceptable to alot of us. I purposely chose a paladin because they were obviously a utility tank. I wanted to be flexable in the role i could play in a group and knew full well that it meant i wouldnt be the best at any 1 single role. A jack of all trades but master of none, so to speak. Anything that changes that style of play is not something that should be supported by the paladin comunity.<hr></blockquote>Telling a class that, "Hey you are good from Levels 1-xx (where XX is the level cap -1 - so 49 right now), but then when you finish your journey, you are worthless" is not something that I think anyone should be really happy about.... I understand that I lot of people enjoy the journey to the end game, and that is fine, but when you get to the end game and there is nothing to do, what then? As I said earlier, just spend another 3-6 months capping a worthy toon to the end game? That's my problem, I want to be able to participate in the end game of EQ2 (which is raiding) and actually feel like my work to the end game led to something other then rez'ing someone who died because the priests are busy healing the tank... Personally I grow attached to the toon I play (in a gaming sense) and to just hit the cap and have nothing to do, is not something I am really looking forward to. -- Either way, I believe these are great discussions, and hope we can all learn more about our class through them....</span><div></div>

[Avigat]

<P>I dunno man, I don't want to knock your guild, but maybe its the wrong one for you.</P> <P> </P> <P>Like you said, we cant out damage a warlock or out tank a guardian, but we can sure as hell out heal them.</P> <P>We do acceptable DPS and can tank if we need to.</P> <P>We are an "Oh [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!" class.  When it hits the fan, pallies are there to save the day.</P> <P>On raids I find myself actually having too much to do, between healing, fighting , watching for adds and rezzing.</P> <P>Anyone that cant see the value of having paladins around on raids is foolish.</P> <P>Thats my opinion anyhow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Wex</P>

[Bakk]

Would it then make sense to simply give us a much more effective cheap taunt come level 50?  Seems to me that is the only complaint.  Come 50 on really big tough mobs we cannot maintain aggro due to running out of power on taunting using inefficient skills.  So simply giving up one lvl 50 skill for a very good efficient taunt would be the solution?  In general play paladins are very flexible it is nice.

[Caud]

Yes, basically the class does reasonably well other than agro management.  We do get a cheap ae taunt at 50 which is nice, its still seriously disproportionate.  It would be nice if they would fix things like having no upgrade up to the last version  of lay on hands apprentice 1.   As it is guardians take damage a little better, which is cancelled by our  heals.  This makes sense that both can tank, and using different abilities, except for the absurdly disproportionate agro control.  Its not just running out of power as it is, burning power for agro is also less effective than it should be. This goes for pre-50 too for all you shortsighted/I don't care about anyone else's play style folks that are happy soloing things at low levels.  I get really tired of being asked if I am using drink in groups.  Its a serious hindrance to our primary role even if you figure the class is working fine because you personally have no problem with it at this instance.  "If I wanted to tank like a guardian I would have made one" .  Well isn't that special, I don't want to tank the same way as a guardian anymore than I expect monks to start using mitigation instead of avoidance.  Thats great, but if Paladins were located under "priest" and not "fighter" with a description of "half [Removed for Content] tank/healer" I wouldn't have made one either. I am still waiting for anyone to show me anything that indicates guardians are supposed to be the king daddy main tank over all others that would call themselves part of the fighter archetype vs all mobs.  If this is the case there is certainly no point in making another fighter class as filling any role well is impossible and the whole emergency character is dumb.  Lay on hands is smaller than most heals, barely bigger than ours.  I can just picture the mob saying "oh noes the [Removed for Content] dps is now doing [Removed for Content] healing, I am doomed, what a world, etc".  Yeah we help and its a strength of the class to be able to shift, we still won't out do another class designed to do the job, except tank seeing as we are tanks and all.  The root of the problem is that there is an overabundance of tanks and they don't typically stack as well as other classes.  3 Scouts/healers/mages is fine, not so great with 3 meat shields although it isn't bad as it is.  On a raid even with tank buffs more than 4 tanks really doesn't help much beyond some mediocre dps.  The tank buffs that stack are a good step in the right direction, they still don't replace a healer usually. <div></div>

[Caud]

<div></div><div></div>Bah red con double post pwned me. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caudex on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Khar Ni]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Telling a class that, "Hey you are good from Levels 1-xx (where XX is the level cap -1 - so 49 right now), but then when you finish your journey, you are worthless" is not something that I think anyone should be really happy about....</blockquote>Personally, i dont see how we are worthless, we are not ideal but we are in no way worthless. <blockquote>I understand that I lot of people enjoy the journey to the end game, and that is fine, but when you get to the end game and there is nothing to do, what then? As I said earlier, just spend another 3-6 months capping a worthy toon to the end game?</blockquote>Most people have not finished the current content and rest assured that SOE will have an expansion ready for when the bulk of them are about to need it. When it comes down to it, most people just dont actively raid. They may do an occasional one here or there but they are not in a heavy raiding guild and probably dont even want to. Often to do start leveling up another character or just sit at what ever the max level at the time is doing quests or whatever untill the next expansion comes along. <blockquote>That's my problem, I want to be able to participate in the end game of EQ2 (which is raiding) and actually feel like my work to the end game led to something other then rez'ing someone who died because the priests are busy healing the tank...</blockquote>To you the "end game" is raiding, but that is not the case for everyone.When it comes down to it, how is your feeling of nothing to do on a raid any different than any tank who isnt the main tank? Seriously, the problem you are describing is not a problem with the paladin class but a problem with the way raid events are designed. Instead of trying to have every class that isnt perfectly suited to a raid be changed, and when it comes down to it this would be every class that isnt focused on being the best at 1 single thing, how about putting that energy into diversifying the raid experience so that more classes can easly participate in a way that is meaningful to them.

[Yrield]

<div></div>here the quote from Moorgard:<i>"The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming.</i><p><i>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</i></p><div><i>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</i></div><div><i> </i></div><div><i>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over."</i> Devs say we are pure tank... we go pure tank, that itsbut they have to make it right, if we are miles aways from guardian in tanking, we are just cleric running around with sword and kite shieldI've read some post here and i start to wonder when im gonna see paladins running around wearing the robe of the invoker <span>:smileysad:btw the "end game" of this game can seal the fate of every single paladins for the next 150 lvl to go...we already have stigma from eq1, we already have stigma for the overcrowded paladins population pre-steed nerf, dont make it worse.... <span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span></div><div></div>

[Awlis]

<P>Ty for that quote...</P> <P> </P> <P>I suspose my major concern as with all these 'adjustments' is that we will gain little and lose alot.. atm our tanking is 'o.k' and our dmg good, we maybe left with good tanking and poor dps... I am wondering wether the dev concider we do too much damage and know they cannot remove this without upsetting the community, so we are offered a sugared pill. I am though slightly more encouraged to read that it will still be possible to dps well if u wish, or for a monk to tank better if yo pay attention to gear and playstyle.</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>I have been at the end game for some. I have been part of the raids that have killed EVERY raid mob in this game. Two things I have observed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) Our aggro skills need work. It is harder for us to maintain aggro that for any other tank out there. I can already see some people saying " no way! i hold aggro just fine!" Yes you can hold aggro just fine, grasshopper, but it costs you far more power than it does for any other tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) IF, and thats a big IF, they do turn us in HEAVY tanks without DPS, then why would we be picked over Guardians? The point of a HEAVY tank is to hold aggro and take damage. At this point, they have alot more aggro skills and 3 more lvls of defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, if you're a Raid leader, and you have your pick of 2 heavy tanks, which one would you pick? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the crux of the matter, this is the my main concern. I'll go through hell, highwater and riot, if they nerf our DPS and just make us compete with Guards as we stand right now, because they have an advantage over us, not matter what people may say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our aggro skills take so much power to hate ratio that is VERY innefficient, and those extra 3 lvls of def also make a huge difference. We need to be fixed before we compete. Ill argue this EVERY time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin/25 Tailor, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 AM</span>

[RiotActer]

<div></div><div></div>Biggest concern I have is that none of this will be hashed out w/ High Level characters.  Big question I have is: Are they doing this because of lvls 20 - 30 or 30 - 35?  How many +40 players are on Test?  I venture not too many. Seems  they plan for server's average level with everything they adjust.  We are by no means the best raw tank in the game...  I didn't want to be a raw tank, and I still don't.  I like being able to damage, blast redemption to aid with aggro, heal, rez, etc.  It's more fun for me if I don't have to Taunt, Taunt, Buff, Taunt, Taunt. I like :  Run to here, ward, run heal, OH NO! Big Heal, buff, ward, redemption, sworn strike, dot, heal, buff - all while swinging a whoping stick.  All while keeping eyes open for adds, getting them before they aggro, and bringing them to the MT or tank it ourselves.  There isn't another class that can do this.  Wardens (who's mitigation is very close to a MT) can't do it, templars can't do it either.  Making us equal with a guard is going to lessen my enjoyment for sure. Like someone said before, we can fill a lot of roles.  We are masters of none, but knowlegeable in many.  And that my fellow Pallys is why the class is fun to play. <div></div><p>Message Edited by RiotActer on <span class="date_text">05-05-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by RiotActer on <span class=date_text>05-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 PM</span>

[Anavron Ta]

It's been my experience that if they take it away (DPS) we will never get it back ever. It would be nice to see some tweeks in costs so we are a little more effcient with our power. I would like to see Paladins stay very close to what they are now with just some little adjustments to taunts. I haven't had any real problems with aggro - it just seems really squirrely every once in a while. Also after a long fight I am usually out of power even if I am real careful. But I would hate to give up anything that makes a Paladin right now very fun to play. I dunno guys I guess we will have to see what SOE comes up with. <div></div>

[Richard III]

<P>If I wanted stats like a guardian....I'd play a guardian</P> <P>If I wanted to act like a tank...I'd play a tank</P> <P>We are assist tank class with solo abilities</P> <P>Please sony do not change our abilities otherwise you really are reducing the number of classes in the game.</P> <P> </P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>im getting frustrated with this mentality.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are [Removed for Content] not just assist tanks. YES, we have a pretty good assist repertoire, but we are TANKS, when it boils down to it. ALL TANKS HAVE ASSIST CAPABILITY. When we are not raiding, what are we doing? We are tanking, and even some of us tank raids. I have not yet been picked to be a healer or a scout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not ready to roll over to that SMALL segment of the Paladin community who feels we're ok, with our mediocre aggro management. Yes, some of you picked Paladins to solo and some of you dont like to raid, thats understood, but when you're tanking for a grp and you burn unneessary power to just keep aggro then something is wrong. People in grps are depending on us to keep aggro...and to not have stupid downtime to recharge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When all is said and done the majority of Paladins agree that we need better and more power effective skills. If you don't believe me we can take an informal poll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only speak from my experience, and I feel that if the Devs are planning to put us as competing heavy tanks, in the shape we are now, we will be in a world of hurt.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:43 AM</span>

[Anavron Ta]

Look everyone has their own idea and opinion on this subject - just because someone doesn't  think we are assist tanks - doesn't mean we aren't. Thats got to be a more accurate assumption at the moment seeing as we cannot hold aggro like we are supposed to. Or maybe we were never meant to hold aggro as the main tank - I don't know someone could be right maybe we are broke. But just because someone wants it that  way doesn't mean that the rest of us want the same dang thing. I would rather have them leave the Pally alone then change it into something that I care not to play!!! If you don't like the way Pallies hold aggro play a Guardian and don't get us nerfed because you mad or something.  Just my 2 cents.... if you are bothered or frustrated by what others have to say don't freakin post! If you change anything SOE please let it be some cost tweeks and leave the rest of it alone. <div></div>

[RSta]

<div></div>I really don't want to be a MT, I like standing off to the side buffing, adding a heal and doing some damage.  I don't need Guardian Agro.  Leave it be, get a Guardian. <div></div><p>Message Edited by RStahl on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR><BR> <P>So you're like the monk troll, Gage? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>OMG I'm famous!! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Join the club gage <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The devs propose making us HEAVY tanks, along with Guardians. This means not only do we get our DPS nerfed, but also our Agility. In return, they will adjust us to be more inline with Gaurdians, which means better taunts, more mitigation, more hitpoints, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I need help. I do not wish to continue arguing our cause, unless this is truly what the Paladin community wants. I personally like Paladins the way they are, with some minor changes to our def buffs and our aggro skills. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How does the rest of the community feel?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Paladins have contacted me who are worried about the loss of DPS, because if were not the MT, then what is our role? to Rez? to DPS?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some Paladins have contacted me and stated that they would rather give up the DPS and agi, so we can tank as well as Guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is your opinion? My posting has gotten the attention of some of the Devs. Lets capitalize on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way we can change our class is to do it together, guys. Strength in numbers!! please post your opinions! it takes 1 or 2 minutes, because these changes will affect us for a long time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <SPAN class=date_text>04-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have a straightforward response to this:</P> <P>If I wanted to be a Gaurdian, I would have chosen Gaurdian.   SOE, let Paladins be Paladins and Gaurdians be Gaurdians.  Fix the bugs with the existing setup, otherwise leave the Paladin AND the Gaurdian alone.   It does not bother me that Gaurdians do some things better than me like taunting and pure defense.  I do some things better than them so it balances out.</P> <p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[trout]

<P>Uzhiel,</P> <P>Please dont take this as a flame. It is not intended to be. I respect your opinions and appreciate your passion for the game and our class but I've got to say I disappointed in your last post here. In the intiall post you ask for the opinions of the community. Surley you must expect that some of them aren't going to be the same as yours. I dont see why you should be frustrated because the supposed minority has choosen to let you know what they think after you asked them to. Im not asking you to "roll over" for the few but if your serious about being a class rep. I'd expext that you listen to them and not try to downplay thier concerns. In the last post you say you can only speak from your expirence. If you were to be the class rep. you would be speaking for all pallys including thoose who's expiriences and opinions differ from yours. As I said before I respect your opinions and have looked specificly for your posts on topics of my concern. I wonder now if I should rethink who I would like to represent me. Hopefully, you just had a bad day.</P>

[Awlis]

<P>Aye I would agree with Trout there; its important that you represent all the Paladins wants and needs if you wee to become class representative.</P> <P>In fact and thank goodness the general opinion that is coming across from this thread is :-</P> <P>firstly leave us well alone we are happy, </P> <P>secondly many of us don't want to be MT at raids, and </P> <P>thirdly many of us don't mind someone else having the glory be that guardians or whoever...,</P> <P> lastly some of us our worryed that we will come out the other side taunting and tanking slightly better but being so heavily nerfed that the class we chose to play in the beginning doesnt resemble what it has become; this is surely the most important point, hardly fair to change so late with so many so high.</P>

[Troodon]

A "general opinion" does not equate to what one vocal group is arguing for, whether they're for or against some change Awlis. The "leave us the H alone" argument has one problem, SoE will do such after of course applying the general dps nerf that is incomming whether you wish it or not in the guise of the Combat changes to reballance archetype damage. Taking this course will solidify us tottally into a jack of all trades and master of none. Personally I dont want a radical overhaul of what Paladin gameplay is like, just a fix to the flaw in our design: our weak taunting abilities and the power we have to burn through to compensate. I want to be able to enjoy playing my Paladin again, currently tanking is an unpleasant world of stress hoping that I dont slip up while cycling through taunts, buffs and heals trying to maintain aggro and that no one forgets to compensate for my hate management weaknesses. I still want to believe in the archetype concept, that all of us should be able to fufill the core role of the Fighter, but just going about it in different ways. Which is while I glad we've got someone like Uzhiel to argue our case. Please leave arguing the Guardian's case to the Guardians, they've got plenty of elequont folks whom are more than capable of doing it. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

Plain and simple, we are going to be changed...not maybe, not who knows if, we ARE going to be changed....all fighters are going to be changed. So we need to think out what we would like to happen when we change, not if we change. We can outdamage scouts with the proper buffing, etc...and that is not the way it should be. As numerous devs have stated, for DPS it is : Mage, Scout, Fighter, Priest....currently it is: Mage Fighter/Scout, Priest...as depending on buffs, upgraded spells etc, fighters can outdamage scouts. So now that we have that point out of the way, we need to figure out if there is something specific that we do want to change...it's a given our DPS is going to go down, now what will be able to make up for that. -- More Defense buffs, so while we don't spit out as much damage, we can take more... -- More Stat based buffs, so we might be able to have more mitigation then current, but not as much defense as a Guardian -- More debuffs, so we can add this to our skill set, and help the group raise there dps...since ours is not on par anymore -- More aggro management, so we can MT anything in the game, not just 1 group. These are the things that we should be looking for, not complaining that we should leave the class alone, because we are not going to be left alone...all fighters are going to get balanced...or nerfed, depending how you look at it, personally I enjoy having to rethink strategies when I play, rather then just simply mash keys...but that is me. FYI - If we are not going to become pure MT's like guardians, then I am all for being an off tank that can debuff...so we do have some place in end raids, other then being a rezbot....At 45 I believe we have 1 debuff, and that is crushing/slashing one. (condemation...I believe?) <div></div>

[Culann Heartsto]

<P>My 2 cents is for 'em to leave our DPS alone...</P> <P>In another MMORPG called City of Heroes..their fighter equivalent was called a Tanker.  Tankers  there were extremely..and I repeat...extremely good at taking damage..so good in fact that once they got aggro, they never lost it, regardless.  Along the same venue, they were so capable of standing the abuse from multiple mobs that I have seen many a Tanker there call "Bio" or "BRB - AFK" or the like during a pitched battle with mobs because they COULD.  It happened often enough..that no one took offense or anything amiss to this behavior because everyone knew the score..the Tanker just wasn't apt to die.</P> <P>The drawback to this near immortal setup was that a Tanker took a lil less than forever to kill a mob..practically nonexistent DPS levels, and when I say nonexistent..I'm serious.  What NCSoft basically made was a taunt button masher class that did really nothing else.</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I do NOT want to be like the CoH Tankers.  I recognize we're not at the top of the DPS tree in the fighter hierarchy, but what DPS we have I'd really like to keep.  I really do NOT want to end up wedging a quarter between keys so it forces my taunt to recycle while I sit and read a book or something (not literally mind you).  I like the heals we have, the DPS we have, and our utility.  My ONLY concern with the class..is our inability to hold aggro as well as a Guardian or the like...as you pointed out Uzhiel, we CAN keep the aggro, but it takes a LOT more power to do so. </P> <P> </P> <P>Lastly..hell no we are not 'assistant' tanks.  Let's not sell ourselves short on the assumption of the minority's PoV on our role in a team.</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Look guys, It does not bother me that some of you want to be assist tanks. More power to you. What bothers is that we're painting ourselves into a corner.</P> <P>To SOE it does not matter whether you want to be an assist tank, they could care less. The change is coming and if we into this without definite ideas about what we want, we'll be the step child of the heavy tanking class. </P> <P>Some of you dont seem to undertand that SOE plans to put up is direct competition with Guards. This is the INTENT. We have 2 choices. Either we stay the same or we get guardianized. These are the options.</P> <P>SOE WILL change tanks, and we are going to be the third lowest DPS, less than scouts and more than healers. If you know anything about SOE is that once they break it, its broke. Once its changed, it takes FOREVER to change it back.</P> <P>Some of you prefer to be assist tanks, and thats great, I play an assist tank myself sometimes. </P> <P>What im saying is WERE NOT JUST ASSIST TANKS. I keep reading posts about how were are this and we are that. We can play multiple roles, but when people keep saying were just assist tanks and thats that, its a pile of BS. </P> <P>ALL tanks <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>play</STRONG></FONT> assist when they dont MT, but not all tanks <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>are</STRONG></FONT> assist tanks. </P> <P>As for class rep, boli or seomon is the better candidate, because I post about how I feel as a Paladin, from my experience.</P> <P>Read MERIDIANS post above mine. Its MUCH better than mine.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Moonreft]

<P>First off to all the morons that complain about us pallys not taunting as well, I say learn your class dumb flocks.(I'm level 50 and haven't had one problem always as MT) 2ed pallys should be in line with guards I see no reason to have a single class for raids as tank. 3ed quit your biching folks just answer the question of the thead!</P>

[Coho1]

 Why can't each player choose? You choose pali tank you get lower DPS and better taunt, you choose DPS you get DPS and lower taunt. Heck even have a stay the same and get increased heals.  SOE should give player options that diversify characters not make everyone "vanilla".

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moonreft wrote:<p>First off to all the morons that complain about us pallys not taunting as well, I say learn your class dumb flocks.(I'm level 50 and haven't had one problem always as MT) 2ed pallys should be in line with guards I see no reason to have a single class for raids as tank. 3ed quit your biching folks just answer the question of the thead!</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>...and you have tanked what Epic encounters? At L44 I was able to tank a L51 ^^ named Eye in Cazic Thule without an issue.....the single group taunting concern is not one I share. As long as your party doesn't have pre-mature Nukers then we hold aggro fine, in a single group environment.  I was also easily able to tank a couple Epic X2 mobs (When the Guardian tank died in Cauldron Hallow, and also the Condemmed Catacombs instance), so to me that is not an issue...it is the high end contested, and Epic X4 mobs that I have mainly been talking about..</span><div></div>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moonreft wrote:<BR> <P>First off to all the morons that complain about us pallys not taunting as well, I say learn your class dumb flocks.(I'm level 50 and haven't had one problem always as MT) 2ed pallys should be in line with guards I see no reason to have a single class for raids as tank. 3ed quit your biching folks just answer the question of the thead!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>...and you have tanked what Epic encounters?<BR><BR>At L44 I was able to tank a L51 ^^ named Eye in Cazic Thule without an issue.....the single group taunting concern is not one I share. As long as your party doesn't have pre-mature Nukers then we hold aggro fine, in a single group environment.  I was also easily able to tank a couple Epic X2 mobs (When the Guardian tank died in Cauldron Hallow, and also the Condemmed Catacombs instance), so to me that is not an issue...it is the high end contested, and Epic X4 mobs that I have mainly been talking about..<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And how exactly do you get a loose mob back?  </P> <P>Simple, pray the caster can dodge long enough for you to burn your entire power bar, healing and warding and spamming every single key you have.   Then more often than not, it simply a delay of his death rather than saving him.</P> <P>I guess I am an idiot and incapable of playing my class.  </P> <P>/em opens book and starts to read how to play a pally guide...</P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Moonreft wrote: <p>First off to all the morons that complain about us pallys not taunting as well, I say learn your class dumb flocks.(I'm level 50 and haven't had one problem always as MT) 2ed pallys should be in line with guards I see no reason to have a single class for raids as tank. 3ed quit your biching folks just answer the question of the thead!</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>...and you have tanked what Epic encounters?At L44 I was able to tank a L51 ^^ named Eye in Cazic Thule without an issue.....the single group taunting concern is not one I share. As long as your party doesn't have pre-mature Nukers then we hold aggro fine, in a single group environment.  I was also easily able to tank a couple Epic X2 mobs (When the Guardian tank died in Cauldron Hallow, and also the Condemmed Catacombs instance), so to me that is not an issue...it is the high end contested, and Epic X4 mobs that I have mainly been talking about..</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>And how exactly do you get a loose mob back?  </p> <p>Simple, pray the caster can dodge long enough for you to burn your entire power bar, healing and warding and spamming every single key you have.   Then more often than not, it simply a delay of his death rather than saving him.</p> <p>I guess I am an idiot and incapable of playing my class.  </p> <p>/em opens book and starts to read how to play a pally guide...</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't believe I was the one who stated people were idiots, and didn't know how to play there class...the poster I was responding to did...but in response to your question. I believe it starts with your group, if people start nuking, buffing, healing before we get our aggro chain off, then yes it becomes very hard to get aggro back from the lose mobs....not disputing that at all, since our hate to mana ratio is very high (low hate to high amount of mana)....as for a tried and true way to get aggro from adds, or lose mobs back...well you summed it up, mash buttons and hope for the best. Again, I have said in numerous posts, that with Paladin's we need to make sure we control the pull from the beginning, or we have a heck of a time getting aggro back.</span><div></div>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moonreft wrote:<BR> <P>First off to all the morons that complain about us pallys not taunting as well, I say learn your class dumb flocks.(I'm level 50 and haven't had one problem always as MT) 2ed pallys should be in line with guards I see no reason to have a single class for raids as tank. 3ed quit your biching folks just answer the question of the thead!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>...and you have tanked what Epic encounters?<BR><BR>At L44 I was able to tank a L51 ^^ named Eye in Cazic Thule without an issue.....the single group taunting concern is not one I share. As long as your party doesn't have pre-mature Nukers then we hold aggro fine, in a single group environment.  I was also easily able to tank a couple Epic X2 mobs (When the Guardian tank died in Cauldron Hallow, and also the Condemmed Catacombs instance), so to me that is not an issue...it is the high end contested, and Epic X4 mobs that I have mainly been talking about..<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And how exactly do you get a loose mob back?  </P> <P>Simple, pray the caster can dodge long enough for you to burn your entire power bar, healing and warding and spamming every single key you have.   Then more often than not, it simply a delay of his death rather than saving him.</P> <P>I guess I am an idiot and incapable of playing my class.  </P> <P>/em opens book and starts to read how to play a pally guide...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't believe I was the one who stated people were idiots, and didn't know how to play there class...the poster I was responding to did...but in response to your question.<BR><BR>I believe it starts with your group, if people start nuking, buffing, healing before we get our aggro chain off, then yes it becomes very hard to get aggro back from the lose mobs....not disputing that at all, since our hate to mana ratio is very high (low hate to high amount of mana)....as for a tried and true way to get aggro from adds, or lose mobs back...well you summed it up, mash buttons and hope for the best.<BR><BR>Again, I have said in numerous posts, that with Paladin's we need to make sure we control the pull from the beginning, or we have a heck of a time getting aggro back.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sorry MeridianR, I should have taken your comment out to be more clear.</P> <P>The sarcasm was in NO way directed towards your post MeridianR.</P> <P>I was responding to the 'We are Perfect and You don't know how to play' post by moonreft that you also responded to.</P> <P>I find it frustrating to see that myself and many other high end Pally's consistently post the same issues with Power consumption while raiding and taking back aggro in the unfortunate group error, and some come here and state they are perfect and have no issues.  Rather we are substandard players because we recognize the problem.</P> <P>It is simply not true.  We have issues.  We use too much power for too little aggro and cannot pull a loose mob off without total power dump.  This makes for a dangerous MT.  If I get a solid pull, I rarely need to retaunt.  In groups I almost NEVER have an issue.  But if there is a screwup, either mine of someone elses, it is hard to correct, sometimes impossible.  Raiding is near impossible with a power feed of some sort. </P> <P>These are real issues for those of us who can honestly admit the class weaknesses.  Those who are to full of themselves to admit there issues are hurting our efforts to correct them.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> SunTsu wrote: <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Moonreft wrote: <p>First off to all the morons that complain about us pallys not taunting as well, I say learn your class dumb flocks.(I'm level 50 and haven't had one problem always as MT) 2ed pallys should be in line with guards I see no reason to have a single class for raids as tank. 3ed quit your biching folks just answer the question of the thead!</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>...and you have tanked what Epic encounters?At L44 I was able to tank a L51 ^^ named Eye in Cazic Thule without an issue.....the single group taunting concern is not one I share. As long as your party doesn't have pre-mature Nukers then we hold aggro fine, in a single group environment.  I was also easily able to tank a couple Epic X2 mobs (When the Guardian tank died in Cauldron Hallow, and also the Condemmed Catacombs instance), so to me that is not an issue...it is the high end contested, and Epic X4 mobs that I have mainly been talking about..</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>And how exactly do you get a loose mob back?  </p> <p>Simple, pray the caster can dodge long enough for you to burn your entire power bar, healing and warding and spamming every single key you have.   Then more often than not, it simply a delay of his death rather than saving him.</p> <p>I guess I am an idiot and incapable of playing my class.  </p> <p>/em opens book and starts to read how to play a pally guide...</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I don't believe I was the one who stated people were idiots, and didn't know how to play there class...the poster I was responding to did...but in response to your question.I believe it starts with your group, if people start nuking, buffing, healing before we get our aggro chain off, then yes it becomes very hard to get aggro back from the lose mobs....not disputing that at all, since our hate to mana ratio is very high (low hate to high amount of mana)....as for a tried and true way to get aggro from adds, or lose mobs back...well you summed it up, mash buttons and hope for the best.Again, I have said in numerous posts, that with Paladin's we need to make sure we control the pull from the beginning, or we have a heck of a time getting aggro back.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Sorry MeridianR, I should have taken your comment out to be more clear.</p> <p>The sarcasm was in NO way directed towards your post MeridianR.</p> <p>I was responding to the 'We are Perfect and You don't know how to play' post by moonreft that you also responded to.</p> <p>I find it frustrating to see that myself and many other high end Pally's consistently post the same issues with Power consumption while raiding and taking back aggro in the unfortunate group error, and some come here and state they are perfect and have no issues.  Rather we are substandard players because we recognize the problem.</p> <p>It is simply not true.  We have issues.  We use too much power for too little aggro and cannot pull a loose mob off without total power dump.  This makes for a dangerous MT.  If I get a solid pull, I rarely need to retaunt.  In groups I almost NEVER have an issue.  But if there is a screwup, either mine of someone elses, it is hard to correct, sometimes impossible.  Raiding is near impossible with a power feed of some sort. </p> <p>These are real issues for those of us who can honestly admit the class weaknesses.  Those who are to full of themselves to admit there issues are hurting our efforts to correct them.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I kind of thought that is what you meant, but I just wanted to make sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  - I think the majority of the heavy posters on this board are together when we state our issues. Mainly we might be a little apart in what we believe the solution to those issues are, but for the most part I think we all know we that we have mana burn/taunt problems... </span><div></div>

[Moonreft]

<P>trigger happy finger</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Moonreft on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[Moonreft]

<P>Woot shoot em dead bad boy</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Moonreft on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>

[Moonreft]

<P>    Member of sony games for about 4 years ive had more posts on these fourms then anyone in the thread im sure, email address has been changed so my posts # has been reset to a few. As a long standing pally for many years in these games I made it my personal issue to debunk the warrior = only tank issue. </P> <P>    I also asked you all to just respond to the question of the thread but it seems you rather get lost in your head about "feeling" talked down to, dont take it personal fool.</P> <P>    As far as to what epic X 4's ive tanked latly and have gotten aggro within 4 secs on each have been, the new zone in commonlands and the "Mad" whatever his name in feerot. I had zero aggro problems on both. epic x2 are just cake at anyrate!</P>

[RRFatUnc]

<DIV>Leave us alone.  I have no problem with agro unless I run out of power.  I constantly out dps even my groups dps people( parser backed).  And my guild says "Guardian who?" when they need a raid tank, as do our ally guilds.  /shrug  The only changes I'd really like to see is have Holy Symbol actually fear and maybe the use of tower shields.  Past that, I'm fairly happy as we are.  Don't forget that once you start asking for changes someone else will [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for nerfing.  I do not wanna end up like the shadow knights.</DIV>

[Ansi]

<P>As much as I have seen tanking x4's so far for the last month and a half, our power management and hit point disadvantages are huge. Do I hold aggro during x4 situations? Yes I do. But the crux of the issue is, a guardian can put out so much hate with much less power, while having the potential to yield much greater HP.</P> <P>As it is now, guardians can stack interline (same timer) hp buffs and gain a substantial lead. The risk assessment in using a paladin or a guardian favors the guardian. With superior hp (less risk on the big DPS spikes) and power management, guardians are a better endurance tank (even if many issues are addressed, I think this will remain the standard).</P> <P>Many of the abilities that give us advantage in a single group situation do not translate into raids. Our heals, even at adept3 do not translate into spike survivability. Yes, they can fill in the holes, but once a spike gets under way, we are at the mercy of a number randomizer. Of course the same is true of the guardian, but his/her hitpoints more adequately protect against spikes.</P> <P>We are a viable tank, however, it all relies on the make-up of the raid force. Right now, it is just a game of wait and see.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Ansiri on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[Zetnorr]

<font color="#ffff00"><font size="4"><font face="Garamond">What will be  the point  of  choosing  a differant character  when starting  if   S.O.E. are going  to  make  them  so  similair  it's  hard to tell  the differance ? Let  a Guard. be a Guard. , A Pally  be a  Pally , an SK be  a ...  the  one  thing  I  would  like to  see  is  attack  for  a  Pally - without  losing  any  defence -   as  I believe  that a Pally is  a  more  offensive  character  &  should  have  the skill's  to match. I do  not like  to be  the MT  & do not like to  take  that role ( I  also  have an issue  with that  very  description  because  of  being in  Armored { Tanks } in RL  I  know that  Tanks  are  very  expensive  offensive platform's & are  not  there to absorb  damage - you  have  the  Infantry  for that} <span>:smileywink:</span> </font></font></font>But I do not want  to  be like  a  Guard. if  I  did  I  would  have chosen that  character  at  startup. We  all  have  that  choice , the  type  of character  we  want  to  play, S.O.E.  please  leave  it  be  &  continue  to  allow  us that  choice.

[Zaloorb]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zetnorr wrote:<font color="#ffff00"><font size="4"><font face="Garamond"><span></span> </font></font></font>But I do not want  to  be like  a  Guard. if  I  did  I  would  have chosen that  character  at  startup. We  all  have  that  choice , the  type  of character  we  want  to  play, S.O.E.  please  leave  it  be  &  continue  to  allow  us that  choice.<hr></blockquote>Amen brother. I like the role that I play. I can tank, I can heal, I can dps. Were not the best at any one of those but we fit many roles.  As one poster quoted, 'We are the swiss army knife of EQ2'. As for aggro. Redemption and Rescue (yeah, long timer) work nicely. Also good to save a shield bash in case the mob gets away. If the mob gets away I usually shield bash, Vengence (prevents mob from attacking for a brief while), Divine something (stifles the mob), taunt, high dps attack either Refusal or Strike line of spells, and, if necessary, Rescue. Yes it does take lots of power but it can be done. And I sure as hell like a challenge =) Zaloorb Tundrasteppe 46th Season Paladin Initiate of Phoenix Legion, Oasis Server</span> <div></div>