Main issue as a 50 raiding pally

[oxig]

<DIV>Hi</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been 50 since February and raided and defeated all high level mobs including Darathar (3 times so far). I believe I can play it quite well and at some (rare occasions) I am tanking raid mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main issue I have as a pally is our poor taunts. This is even more obvious since they changes Redemption. I used to cast it on 2 persons in my group and I was ok, now it can only be casted once.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a main tank I lose aggro very quickly with disastrous consequences for the raid. This does not help as people start to look at pally as a poor tank. Once I lost aggro, it is simply impossible to get it back and I have adept 3 taunts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an off tank or back up tank, I am rarely in second position in the hate table of the encounter, even taunting non stop. If the tank dies, well I don't often save the day. It is common that when off tanking the adds grouped with the main mob, I cannot get them off the guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could check this issue with a mob where the strategy is to get all the tanks to taunt in order to maintain aggro (mob is clearing the hate list during the fight and the strategy was to get all tanks to taunt in front of it to minimise the mob turning to dps and healers). Guardian, Zerkers, SK grabed aggro, never managed to grab it as a pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If our role is defensive, this need to be adressed. I am not angry, just pointing a deficiency. When it comes to spells, our tank abilities are greatly reduced by the interruptions we have. This makes our only (weak) area effect taunt almost worthless, and our direct heals unreliable. In addition our ward can only be casted in the main  group, so if you are in the second group, well too bad.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by oxigen on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:35 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by oxigen on <SPAN class=date_text>04-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:36 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by oxigen on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I agree. Right now my main role in a raid is the rezzer. While my DPS is decent..its not expectacular, and since Guards almost always tank the mobs, I pretty much just sit there.</P> <P>I dont really mind, since I've raided 86 times so far...but with our poor aggro skills, it seems to be difficult to hold aggro from 5 warlocks burning the MOB.  What im really concerned about is when the healers get fixed and aggro starts going to healers, vice the tank. Thats the day when u see ALL tanks riot over aggro.</P>

[djhbeek]

i agree.  in raids i sit there and wait for the healers to get whacked so i can rez them ... <div></div>

[Skabanis]

<DIV>haha our guardian says his taunts are broken too...maybe soe has a sick sense of humor...watching illuisionist dying over and over or even warlocks....</DIV>

[gachamann]

I have to strongly disagree. I have never had problems holding aggro, and I use a screaming mace that procs a reduced threat! Do you make the actuall pull if you're MT? Do you use both group taunts/bash and single taunts, regardless if it's a single mob? Do you Ward constantly and throw in a couple extra heals? And does the group wait a second or two before engaging the mob before joining in the fight once you've locked swords with it? If any of these are NO, then you (or the group) are not playing properly for holding aggro. If you are doing all these things, and a group member is not to blame by not properly using his attacks to not get a ton of hate in a short period of time, then there's something else wrong that isn't being addressed here. That's not to say I never lose hate even when playing correctly, but it's very rare. And the one time my mace procced twice in a row, too lol. That's only happened once so far though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But if I mentioned anything above you might not be doing, try it. I guarantee you'll like the results. - Ravynn 49 Paladin <div></div>

[Skabanis]

Scr mace is a bad  idea...it procs three times straight your in deep poo poo...i used to use it now is on the wall collecting dust as harden mettalic hammer and prsimatic owns it...

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>double [Removed for Content] post. sigh</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Umm...lets see...My guild is the top guild on our server. At this point I think we have done more raids than all the other top 15 guilds COMBINED.  We've raided Darathar almost every week for the past 2 months. I've personally attended 86 raids, including Vox, Venekor, Trembalr, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've posted about it previously..but I guarantee you there's less than 100 palys in the entire game who have better gear than I.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not new to raiding. I have been used as a MT before. I know what my abilities do or do not let me accomplish. You did put a smile on my face when u said im "not playing my char properly"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians can hold aggro much easier than we can. They have FIVE taunts, which are much less mana intensive then our 3 taunts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We use bash, zealous preaching, and clarion call. I am not conviced our stances even work. Redemption works on only 1 member of your grp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, im not saying we can't hold aggro. I'm stating that Its moderately more difficult for us to hold aggro vs a guard or a berserker. Dont take my word for it...just do some research.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are also talking about raids, not XP..in a raid you cant tell your DPS to hold back so they dont steal aggro. They are SUPPOSED to go all out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the best time to bring this debate up again, because these combat changes will apparently put Guards and Palys on an almost even keel...so if all things are equal, but guards get better aggro..hmn..you draw your conclusion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 PM</span>

[woo]

be glad your not a monk..  <STRONG>2</STRONG> taunts..  :smileysad:

[jshari]

yeah i think they need to fix pallys so we are more usfull in raids and we can "save the day, a whole lot better"

[Viglundr]

<P>Amen.</P> <P> </P>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gachamann wrote:<BR>I have to strongly disagree. I have never had problems holding aggro, and I use a screaming mace that procs a reduced threat!<BR><BR>Do you make the actuall pull if you're MT? Do you use both group taunts/bash and single taunts, regardless if it's a single mob? Do you Ward constantly and throw in a couple extra heals? And does the group wait a second or two before engaging the mob before joining in the fight once you've locked swords with it?<BR><BR>If any of these are NO, then you (or the group) are not playing properly for holding aggro. If you are doing all these things, and a group member is not to blame by not properly using his attacks to not get a ton of hate in a short period of time, then there's something else wrong that isn't being addressed here.<BR><BR>That's not to say I never lose hate even when playing correctly, but it's very rare. And the one time my mace procced twice in a row, too lol. That's only happened once so far though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But if I mentioned anything above you might not be doing, try it. I guarantee you'll like the results.<BR><BR>- Ravynn<BR>49 Paladin<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You must be talking about grouping.  Because I have no issues with grouping, in fact i rarely even taunt in a group.  But a Raid mob is a major difference.  I have recently been MT for several raids.  I have the same issues as the OP in Raids.  We have ineffective, and costly aggro management.  If I lose it to a Guard, I often cannot get it back.  <BR></P> <P>We are sprinters, if we get it first, we can hold it as long as we have power, but if we lose it we cannot get it back and if we have no crack we go oop too fast for raiding.</P> <P>There is a string in the test forum about the plans for the tanks.  It appears we will get a DPS nerf and an aggro management bump...here's hopin.</P>

[Platfing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gachamann wrote:<BR>I have to strongly disagree. I have never had problems holding aggro, and I use a screaming mace that procs a reduced threat!<BR><BR>Do you make the actuall pull if you're MT? Do you use both group taunts/bash and single taunts, regardless if it's a single mob? Do you Ward constantly and throw in a couple extra heals? And does the group wait a second or two before engaging the mob before joining in the fight once you've locked swords with it?<BR><BR>If any of these are NO, then you (or the group) are not playing properly for holding aggro. If you are doing all these things, and a group member is not to blame by not properly using his attacks to not get a ton of hate in a short period of time, then there's something else wrong that isn't being addressed here.<BR><BR>That's not to say I never lose hate even when playing correctly, but it's very rare. And the one time my mace procced twice in a row, too lol. That's only happened once so far though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But if I mentioned anything above you might not be doing, try it. I guarantee you'll like the results.<BR><BR>- Ravynn<BR>49 Paladin<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You must be talking about grouping.  Because I have no issues with grouping, in fact i rarely even taunt in a group.  But a Raid mob is a major difference.  I have recently been MT for several raids.  I have the same issues as the OP in Raids.  We have ineffective, and costly aggro management.  If I lose it to a Guard, I often cannot get it back.  <BR></P> <P>We are sprinters, if we get it first, we can hold it as long as we have power, but if we lose it we cannot get it back and if we have no crack we go oop too fast for raiding.</P> <P>There is a string in the test forum about the plans for the tanks.  It appears we will get a DPS nerf and an aggro management bump...here's hopin.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>DPS nerf?  Ugghhh - we are already lagging behind other tanks in this area.  Why can't we just have increased taunts and leave the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] DPS alone?<BR>

[Seek]

<P>i have only been MT in 3 raids so far is im still a noob at it, but all 3 times i have not lost agro.  All i do is run through my taunts, shield base, main nukes, then buffs etc and no matter how much those power hungry warlocks nuke away they cannot get that mob off me.  If someone dies during the raid its because of the mob aoe attack .</P> <P>During group fighting i have lost agro afew times but thats only because its against group mobs and group members not assisting me, other times i have been slack on keeping agro only when its another person who can tank the mob just as well as i can.</P> <P> </P> <P>The only problem i have is with ADDS where ive just used my taunts and i have to stand there and wait for them to recharge b4 i can grab agro off them but im sure all tank classes have hit that problem</P>

[Karlen]

I can only speak for play at lower levels, but I have found that Paladins can't rely on their taunts alone.   We need to make full use of our wide range of abilities including wards, heals and buffs which all generate substantial aggro.   For example, healing yourself sometimes instead of relying solely on the healer or making sure that redemption is on the right group member.  Or, when the healer gets injured, heal the healer yourself to draw aggro back to you. <div></div>

[Seomon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> woode wrote:<BR>be glad your not a monk..  <STRONG>2</STRONG> taunts..  :smileysad:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, because we have a lot more than 2.. oh wait, nope, we only have 2.

[HeraklesMolt]

<DIV>Everyone can steal agro from me.  I have all adept 3's too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Herak Stonefinger</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV>

[Titali]

<DIV>i'd have to say our bash is a taunt, considering the fact it says increase threat by 480 or w/e. one thing that kind of upsets me is the agro modifier on our wards and shining beacon/benediction seem to have no effect, maybe thats because its only [Removed for Content] 1%, but idk.</DIV>