Holding Aggro

[woo]

<DIV>im not a paladin.. i play a monk, lvl 33.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i am considering weather i want to keep going with my monk or create another tank class (looking at guardian, zerker, and paladin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i really like how paladin looks, and looking at the skills you would think paladins can hold aggro really well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>however, whenever i group with paladins even 4 lvls higher than me i can pull aggro without even trying.  now this can be said with guardians too if they dont taunt.. so im wondering if i just happen to group with poor tanks or is there really a problem with paladins and holding aggro?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also, is it true wisdom affects your power pool??  this interests me because only paladin would make use of all the stats except intelligence..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks</DIV>

[Troillus]

<DIV>Well, Hmm tough one</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    When i'm distracted a high DPS class can pull agro from me no problems, However if you have a planed out strategy on Hate management you'll never have an issue. You have quite a few tools for Hate management/creation and and transfer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When i'm MT and pull mobs while running back to base camp. I always manage to get in 2 taunts and Ward in there to get on top of the bunch. When I notice that my group are a bunch of big hitters I also tend to Put out a few "Call to Glory" for hate transfers in there. It also buffs up melee skills. There is also a proc called "redemption" to put on that guy that generates the most hate in your group and transers a bit of his hate to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So this is my plan at level 38</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pull.</DIV> <DIV>1. Solem Oath</DIV> <DIV>2. Demonstration of Faith</DIV> <DIV>    ::while going back to camp::</DIV> <DIV>3. noble tone</DIV> <DIV>4. smite prayer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>after 10 or so seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call to glory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and repeat as neccesary. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if i have a Zerker or a Warlock one of those HIGH dps or High hate generators I will place "redemption" on them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my plan and it's been working so far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also Hate management is not just your responsibility. You have to explain to your group When they can unleash the dps. If a wizzy hits for 600 dps while you havent completed your hate creation process chances are you're going to be chasing around a wizzy with mob in tow. So Letting your group know when to hold back and when to let it go is also your responsibility as a tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps.</DIV> <DIV>I'd really like to know other Paladins hate management tactics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Troillus wrote:<div>Well, Hmm tough one</div> <div> </div> <div>    When i'm distracted a high DPS class can pull agro from me no problems, However if you have a planed out strategy on Hate management you'll never have an issue. You have quite a few tools for Hate management/creation and and transfer. </div> <div> </div> <div>ie.</div> <div> </div> <div>When i'm MT and pull mobs while running back to base camp. I always manage to get in 2 taunts and Ward in there to get on top of the bunch. When I notice that my group are a bunch of big hitters I also tend to Put out a few "Call to Glory" for hate transfers in there. It also buffs up melee skills. There is also a proc called "redemption" to put on that guy that generates the most hate in your group and transers a bit of his hate to you.</div> <div> </div> <div>So this is my plan at level 38</div> <div> </div> <div>pull.</div> <div>1. Solem Oath</div> <div>2. Demonstration of Faith</div> <div>    ::while going back to camp::</div> <div>3. noble tone</div> <div>4. smite prayer.</div> <div> </div> <div>after 10 or so seconds.</div> <div> </div> <div>Call to glory.</div> <div> </div> <div>and repeat as neccesary. </div> <div> </div> <div>Now if i have a Zerker or a Warlock one of those HIGH dps or High hate generators I will place "redemption" on them.</div> <div> </div> <div>This is my plan and it's been working so far.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also Hate management is not just your responsibility. You have to explain to your group When they can unleash the dps. If a wizzy hits for 600 dps while you havent completed your hate creation process chances are you're going to be chasing around a wizzy with mob in tow. So Letting your group know when to hold back and when to let it go is also your responsibility as a tank</div> <div> </div> <div>ps.</div> <div>I'd really like to know other Paladins hate management tactics.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I really only have some issues when there is a Warlock in the group, other then that I have duo'd/trio'd with a Fury (worst aggro generating healer class) and Swashie (high damage) so I am used to aggro management. My tactics: Redemption on Warlock if there is a warlock (or Wizard, if they have master/adept3 spells) Refusal of Grace  (use to pull) Shatter Will Noble Tone Smite Prayer Courageous Dash Call to Glory Divine Judgement Start Ho, finish Ho (uses Noble Tone) Everytime Call to Glory, Couragrous Dash, or Smite Prayer are up and we are fighting a group I use it...if just a single mob, then I sub Noble Tone. All of my aggro generating spells (along with all my spells/arts no matter what) are AppIV at least, and both my taunts are Adept 1. If needed I will through a Display of Devotion on myself (our Tier 5 ward) which I got the Adept 1 drop for..... In groups where I need to add my DPS to make the fight worthwhile, I also use Refusal of Grace, Sworn Strike, and Implecable Wrath when they are up. Again my only issue is with Warlocks, if they start going to town right away before I can get off a couple hate generators, and boy do they like to keep aggro...lol </span><span></span><div></div>

[SanJ]

<DIV>Woode,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro management skills vary between fighter elite professions.  Paladins are not blessed with a high number of taunts (1 single target taunt/1 aoe taunt).  However, we have several "good" tools for managing aggro that include wards, buffs and heals (including an attack with our shield that generates hate).  Paladins likewise generate a good amount of DPS and will parse out high on a list many times even when main tanking.  I really enjoy the Paladin class and have never second-guessed my decision on character choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the fighter professions have aggro management skills that will be effective if the group takes responsiblity and time to understand the advantages and limitations of their tank's skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never really had issues with aggro management through any of my Paladin tier levels (currently level 46).  However, I do take the time to explain to party members should aggro become unmanagable on the tactics we need to employ.  I have had to do this very few times, but will if necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My real concern regarding your statement about stealing aggro from the Paladin easily and often is how/why?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Questions:</DIV> <DIV>Was the Paladin MT with you serving the role of OT or just another DPS member?  If so, were you taunting and using your aggro managment skills?  If so, "Why?" if you were not MT?  That would be working against the overall benefit of the group.  It could have been a case of a lazy or sleepy Pally that wasn't using his/her abilities as well as they could.  It could have been a combat bug with hate, we've seen several  over gameplay.  Perhaps it was an Ebay-purchased Pally <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I actually saw a bio on a level 50 Templar in Qeynos Harbor last night that read:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>quote</DIV> <DIV>I would love to group with you but don't expect me to keep you alive.  I just got this account and I'm trying to figure out how it all works so please be patient and don't yell at me if you die--I'm learning!</DIV> <DIV>end quote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where you just cranking out lots of DPS and stealing aggro that way?  If this is the case, the Paladin had several options</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- snap out of the trance from mindless grinding and get back to work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>- could have built more hate prior to you engaging</DIV> <DIV>- could have taunted more frequently</DIV> <DIV>- could have used wards in conjuction with fighter/scout HO's or scout/fighter/(healer or mage) HO's.  I can not stress enough the POWER of group based, chain HOs in combat.  It saves mana, inflicts more damage, gets the party working together like a well oiled machine, provides a sense of satisfaction to everyone participating, keeps things interesting when just grinding for XP on the same mobs for hours on end, etc.</DIV> <DIV>- could have warded you with two or more abilities/spells when you stole aggro to get it back</DIV> <DIV>- could have placed you on redemption (a spell we have that transfers hate from the group member under the spell)</DIV> <DIV>- could have healed you even if you weren't hurt to regain aggro</DIV> <DIV>- could have used "rescue" on you </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see on-going debate after on-going debate on which is the best tank class.  If you are interested in reading those threads they are scattered high and low throughout these forums.  However, I will comment that any of the "tank" professions can be successful if they have a plan and group willing to work with/around their abilities to be successful.  The tank is always only as good as the player behind the keyboard and the group members supporting the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an example, I have lost aggro before and used every skill within my possession to regain it with no success.  By the same token, I've had another tank profession downplay the Paladin's skills and claim that it would be impossible for me to steal their aggro.  I've pushed one to three buttons to prove otherwise in a few situations--don't like the attitude in those groups and usually avoid the "I'm uber lEEt < 3 crowd."  The second example is the one that concerns me. Why would you want to group with people that don't share the same common goals?  A group of multiple tanks should work out details on MT, OT, MA, aggro management, add management, etc. prior to combat to be successful.  I've played with every freaky combination of player classes you could imagine and I've had a blast playing with them all as long as we work together.  If not, try to introduce a new game plan or move along to another group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are constantly stealing aggro from a Paladin MT that is several levels higher then you, I am guessing you MUST be using aggro management skills (i.e. taunt, etc.) to attempt to take aggro.  I know monks do nice DPS, but some of the elite mage and elite scout classes do very serious damage.  I have not had aggro management issues playing with any professions that are working together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV>