Advice needed: "Paladin" / "Berserker" comparison

[Ael]

Hi Folks.... Just restarted a character on Crushbone/Qeynos, and getting close to that magic point where I'll have to decide which path to walk. I've narrowed down to "Warrior" (leading to 'Zerker) or "Crusader" (leading to Paladin).  Ah, choices of committment that cannot be undone are always a worry..... I've compared the two classes using the boards, and examined the class spell lists on caster's realm and still can't decide. I'd hate to have to re-roll later on if I'm unhappy - ie, I make a hasty uninformed choice and it turns out to be the wrong one. In EQ1, I used to play a Shaodwknight. Quite often I was either puller, or MT. But SK in EQ1 is totally unlike anything in EQ2 (including EQ2 SKs). EQ1 SK had a LOT of different strategies available - invis, self buffs, great pullers, and the taps could (if used tactically) change the tide of battle. Lousy DPS, though, even with the fixes they didn't really compare with other melees. The problem with being set up for being a great MT is that if the group already had a warrior that could take nearly as much abuse as you could, and someone who could pull, there was nothing you were able to add. So pickup groups would be hard to find (until PoP came out). So in EQ2, I'm looking for the class that "fits me" best, or the role(s) that I can enjoy playing. That's down to Berserker, or Paladin. 1. I enjoy having choices of tactics / strategies, so I can be creative on how I play my character. 2. Able to fill multiple roles, not necessarily at the same time. (Roles = MT, secondary assist, puller, DPS, whatever). In EQ1, I got squeezed into MT or "Raid puller" roles, and had a hard time getting groups or doing any other role. I really enjoyed the MT / Puller role - but it made it a pain to get xp groups... I'd rather not get squeezed into roles that lock me out of anything else. 3. Soloability - it's nice to have options if I can't find a decent pickup group, or if I'm farming for a quest or something. 4. Aggro - I like to have complete control of the aggro, and be able to take it when it's focused on me (this might be the main deciding factor, but if I have no dps worth mentioning, then it's pointless. I learned that from EQ1). Any suggestions on how Paladins and Berserkers compare in the above qualities ? Any advice is welcomed. I think I'll have to decide tonight. Right now here's what I'm thinking (some of this from chats with other players, so some of it may be incorrect): (I'm likely to be playing with a couple friends semi-regularly, ones a cleric the other is likely to be a mage) If I pick Paladin: 1. Soloing : Heals would cut downtime. 2. Main melee of the group, when partnering : Decent DPS, fantastic meatsheild 3. Spells : Decent enough that there can be some creative strategies there. 4. Pickup groups with more melees : Able to contribute DPS, or able to function as MT. 5. ? Heals/Buffs : Secondary healer ? Does a cleric make a Paladin redundant ? 6. ? Able to play different roles, but require gear swapping to do so 7. Good aggro control, able to take aggro from other characters If I pick Berserker: 1. Soloing : High DPS , Good tanking, good soloability 2. Main melee of the group when partnering : High dps, and/or able to take the beating. 3. King of Aggro generation 4. ? Able to play different roles simply by changing around active buffs / effects. 5. ? Lots of berserkers, hard to get pickup groups 6. ? No powers to reduce downtime or help support the group 7. ? Less AC than paladins, can't MT as well on raids 8. ? Puller ability totally know Any comments on this list ? Getting the above cleared up should help me decide.

[Karlen]

Some thoughts from a 28 Paladin. >>>If I pick Paladin: 1. Soloing : Heals would cut downtime.<<< I find I am very power dependant.   My downtime is totally related to what I've been drinking. I almost never eat anything as I usually finish battles at full health due to use of my ward (DoF Adept III wards for 284 and can be recast every 15 seconds).  Being able to heal is an added bonus. >>>2. Main melee of the group, when partnering : Decent DPS, fantastic meatsheild<<< I have found that my DPS isn't very good compared to almost everyone else.  But everything else I can do makes up for it.  I can wear plate and carry a shield so my mitigation is pretty much as good as the other fighters. >>>3. Spells : Decent enough that there can be some creative strategies there.<<< I was surprised how many wizzie-like spells I got.  I have several spells on different timers that "call fire down from the sky" which is pretty cool. >>>4. Pickup groups with more melees : Able to contribute DPS, or able to function as MT.<<< Actually I tend to either MT or support the MT with heals/buffs/etc.    We have some nice spells to make MT much better (Ancient Pledge, Vigor of Trust, Offering of Armament) plus I usually throw wards on the MT which helps the healers.  Also nice to be able to throw wards on other group members who have drawn aggro. >>>5. ? Heals/Buffs : Secondary healer ? Does a cleric make a Paladin redundant ?<<< I've been main healer in a lot of smaller groups although it does limit what we can fight because Paladins really only count for half a healer -- although 2 Paladins can come close to a full healer.   With a cleric in the group, we don't need to focus on healing but we do serve as useful insurance for when the healer falls behind, draws aggro, or whatever.  Emergency healing is nothing to be sneezed at. >>>6. ? Able to play different roles, but require gear swapping to do so<<< Other than switching from shield to no shield, there isn't much other gear to swap. >>>7. Good aggro control, able to take aggro from other characters<<< I think it might take more skill to maintain aggro for Paladins than other fighters as we seem to lack any "great" taunts but have lots of abilities that draw aggro (taunts, buffs, wards, heals, etc.).  We can't just rely on "auto aggro" which it seems guardians and berserkers can do. Paladins have a range of abilities which gives them the ability to fulfill multiple roles in a group.  We might not be the best in any of those roles but we can tank as well as any other fighter and can fill holes in the group, particularly in the case of smaller groups that might not have all the archetypes. <div></div>

[RiotActer]

I might be able to shead some light on this... In my small guild we have a lvl 38ish Zerker.  I've usually been about 6 to 7 levels higher on average.  Right now I'm lvl 44. The Zerker can pull aggro off me at any time if I'm not 100% paying attention.  The average lvl of my guild's mains is around 38.  So when we're doing hunts that are low level to me, they might be conning blue, white, yellow to my guild.  If I'm not managing aggro 100% of the time, the zerker and yank it right off me.  And yes, I totally admit that is happens if the Zerker is buffed and 6 to 7 levels below me. If you want to be aggro king and MT all the time, then I'd go Zerker.  In talking with other Zerkers, this seems to be mantra.  At least for me, it's tough for a Pally to tank when there is a Zerker in the group.  (As with everything, it can be done.)  I usually have no problems with other classes and aggro.  Guards, Wizzys, Healers. IMHO you are not in the "Perfect" group a 1/4 of the time in game.  You have to solo, have to duo, have to trio.   This is where we pally's excel.  We have a very nice range of skills.  The heals are a big part of that when in a small group.  Even if there is a healer in the group, you will be able to take on more powerful mobs as a pally.  We also get some nice buffs / wards.  (I can't speak on differences of buffs and Zerkers).  Even solo, the just don't help with downtime, they help with being able to kill things! Pally's can't dual wield, and can't use ranged weapons.  We do have great pull spells though. Pally's are much more versital than all other Tank classes IMHO. <div></div>

[Skymo]

<P>I have a lvl 40 Paladin atm.</P> <P>Paladin is a char you have to fight for your aggro all the time.</P> <P>I didn't manage to meet a Berzerker yet who was able to keep aggro of him in my group even if I used all the tools I have and the Zerker is about 5 lvl below me. No Wizzard is able to get aggro that fast</P> <P>At least we can heal them =)</P> <P>However I usually leave groups with Berzerkers. I am not sure if it is the players or the class fault yet.</P>

[WhiteEcthelion]

<DIV>Actually, at level 50 the Paladin is an incredibly robust class.  I agree that we must be more creative than our fighter counterparts to hold aggro.  However, I have found that using Adept 3 Redemption on our guild's lvl 49 berzerker can generally hold it with me using minimal taunts.  If the zerker ever wants to pull aggro off me, it is extremely easy for him to do so.  In an intelligent group, a berzerker who is not MT will hopefully be intelligent enough to not be casting Anarchy and rage throughout the entire battle since these two spells are notorious for pulling aggro to the zerker.  That's like us spamming our high level taunts and wards when we're supposed to be off tanking.... it's just not a smart thing to do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note.  I small group (duo) with our guild's level 49 zerker all the time and we make an amazing small team.  I usually tank and heal while he DPSs and uses his group haste buffs to increase both of our damage outputs.  It is a very potent setup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And finally, realize that in the end game, what really matters is mitigation and damage absorption.  Aggro handling is highly important in single groups.  However, in the raid scene people in your raid will not be spamming DD attacks and nukes.  If they do, the mob will wipe that person out, and switch back to the tank.  The person who pulled aggro is generally looked down upon for not tempering his attacks enough, it is generally not considered the tanks fault.  It is quite a switch from normal XP groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my two cents,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Titali]

<DIV>If I pick Paladin:<BR>1. Soloing : Heals would cut downtime.<BR>2. Main melee of the group, when partnering : Decent DPS, fantastic meatsheild<BR>3. Spells : Decent enough that there can be some creative strategies there.<BR>4. Pickup groups with more melees : Able to contribute DPS, or able to function as MT.<BR><FONT color=#ff3300>5. ? Heals/Buffs : Secondary healer ? Does a cleric make a Paladin redundant ?<BR><FONT color=#6633cc>6. ? Able to play different roles, but require gear swapping to do so</FONT><BR></FONT>7. Good aggro control, able to take aggro from other characters<BR><BR>If I pick Berserker:<BR>1. Soloing : High DPS , Good tanking, good soloability<BR>2. Main melee of the group when partnering : High dps, and/or able to take the beating.<BR>3. King of Aggro generation<BR><FONT color=#66cc33>4. ? Able to play different roles simply by changing around active buffs / effects.<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffcc33>5. ? Lots of berserkers, hard to get pickup groups</FONT><BR><FONT color=#336666>6. ? No powers to reduce downtime or help support the group<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff00ff>7. ? Less AC than paladins, can't MT as well on raids</FONT><BR><FONT color=#ccccff>8. ? Puller ability totally know</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>5. you are a great 2ndary tank/healer at higher levels, clerics work phenomenally with paladins. I always group with a templar, him being the only healer. I am generally the main tank, but i have no problem sitting back, buffing up the MT and using your heals to cover anyone besides the MT. Your level 30 training heal is one of or the most mana efficient heal in the game. On that note, if you run into a situtation where everyone is low on mana, like you have 3 or 4 heroic encounters going on or something. You can cast that heal forever and turn the tide just through outlasting the mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>6. refer to above, i started rambling. you will use a shield when you MT, you will use 2hander when you're 2ndary.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc33>4. zerkers are pretty decent 2ndary tanks because they can whip out a 2hander and dps fairly well. i dont believe the buffs they get to slap on the MT are as useful/good as a paladins. they wont be saving anyone if the MT loses agro either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc33>5. well this is about the same for zerkers and paladins i would say. as a paladin i have no problem getting pickups. and when i am doing the picking up i treat all fighters pretty much equally.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#336666>6. not that i know of</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>7. the difference? tower shields have 1% more chance to block than kite shields (pal/sk)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>8. one uses a bow, one uses nukes. now, im not sure of the range on bows, but we get a spell in our early 30s called Divine Judgement that you can cast while running and has an extended range, it is quite useful for those hard to reach mobs. i can pull the named PH off of the temples adjacent to the big one without having to leave the big one in CT, i dont think a bow can do that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>good luck</DIV>

[Fluxuati]

<DIV>Lvl 49 paladin here. Some of what you say is true. But we can have a good mana supply. I can kep a zerker from taking my hate. But you have to be tatical to do it. One cast heals on the person whos taking hate and heals on yerself. Healing creates hate. And we have a small mana fast 500+ heal easy to use during fight over and over. Wards will help with yer hate. We have a few lower lvl spells that will take their hate ande give it to us. If they take hate immediately hit with 2 of your higest damage spells then use yer best taunt ALWAYS GIVES IT RIGHT BACK AS QUICK AS THEY TOOK IT. Use redemption when its available. Dont be fooled. Paladins are all about holding hate. And we are a staple of the tank classes. If i have an enchater in my group for mana regen and such no one can take my aggro. HO's tend to cause loss of aggro so watch them. And last but not least a smart group will watch and control there aggro. Some people want to prove something by taking aggro which is stupid. Why? Becouse they cant hold it and it spreads like a wildfire throughout the group. Almost every class has some type of hate spell or spells that have hate mixed in with them. Its up too those people to control their hate and let the MT do their job. Most of the time and i stress most of the time paladins lose hate becouse they are preserving valuable mana in case of adds and such  so they arent spamming hate and other hate enducing spells. IE if the group doesnt control their hate the MT will lose it, i assume this goes for most MT classes. </DIV>

[some_perso]

J/w what exactly does Redemption do?  I don't see it on the combat art lists I usually use.

[Troillus]

<DIV>I hear alot of you guys complaining about zerkers stealing agro. I've never had a problem with keeping agro. I just make sure at initial pull i give the mob all i got. Use my wards and buffs (not only helps the group) but also transfers quite a bit of aggro to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Troillus]

<DIV>J/w what exactly does Redemption do?  I don't see it on the combat art lists I usually use. </DIV> <DIV>--------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's a spell you cast on a member of your party, whenever that character incurs hate. a portion of that hate is transfered to you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7852" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7852</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Troillus on <span class=date_text>04-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Poochymama]

<DIV>I agree with all of your opionions for the most part. The only one I think may be a little off is the one about tanking. For the most part what ive seen Paly's and Zerkers will have the same AC with the same gear. Zerkers will tend to have 1-2k more health fully buffed on a raid than Paly's but Pally's can heal for about that much so there really is no difference. The only other difference is that zerkers can wear tower shields that have more shield factor.(not really sure that shield factor does anything anyway, because devs stated that all tower shields add 20% chance to block and all kite shields have 19% chance.) I am a zerker and I have only pulled agro off a pally twice. But then again I know the Pally I group with who is 5 lvls higher than me and we know how to work together so that he maintains aggro. When it comes to Raids Pally's are probobly more usefull than Zerkers if their is an equal lvl guardian in the raid. This is because of their heals and superior buffs. If there is not a Guardian in the group the Zerker is more usefull since he will most likely me mt because I think Zerkers are a little bit more capable of holding agro than a pally.</DIV>

[Platfing]

Zerkers get that dang self-buff bezerk line that they cast over and over on themselves during combat and that generates huge amount of agro.  Casting Redemption on the zerker does help though.

[Ansi]

<P>We are power hogs as aggro goes, but in a general XP group situation it is much less noticable (to me at least). I kind of wish our skills didn't cover such a broad range of buffs and such, but other than that, we are solid. On raids, that lack of specialization can hurt a bit.</P> <P>Our heals are really the highpoint though, especially in pickup groups. If a pull goes bad, or adds stack up, a good paladin can do some nifty stuff to keep himself (and therfore his group) alive.</P>