Thoughts on Tanking

[ChuMann]

<DIV>Let me first say that I love to tank.  I love to tank for pick-up groups and I love to tank for my guild.  Last night I got to thinking of some of the finer points of the role of the tank.  I think one of the most overlooked and underappreciated tanking abilities is the ability to switch targets quickly.  As a tank, it's extremely important to focus on a particular bad guy but as most of you know, the need OFTEN arises where switching targets can make everyone's life a whole lot easier.  Let me explain one of the most common sencarios:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>     -You're in a small group killing mobs of 4 or 5 at a time.  Your wizard is blasting away and easily dispathes the first enemy.  Typically, you would hope that most everyone in the group is assissting you in this situation.  After the enemy dies, the wiz tries to sling an Ice Comet on the next enemy knowing that aggro is easily under control.  He tries to cast through you and gets "No Eligible Target" in big bold letters on his screen.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After making a mage as my alt, I realized how frustrating this stuff can be when you have a tank that has about a 5 second lag inbetween switching from a dead to a live enemy.  So, I practiced switching targets and I have to say it is like night and day in the speed-up time during battles.  I've found that learning to grab enemies (adds or enemies already encountered) quickly is the key to success especially when pulling yellows or higher.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Please respond with thoughts and/or Ideas</DIV> <DIV>-If anyone else has some personal tidbits for success, please post them.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Alarion1]

<div></div>This scenario is why you should try to havea  main assist that is different than the tank. I created this document a few days ago, and is certainly a work in progress: <a href="http://www.eq2crusaders.org/content/view/61/34/" target=_blank> http://www.eq2crusaders.org/content/view/61/34/</a> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Alarion1 on <span class=date_text>04-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<P>Dinaek,</P> <P>A well written guide-5 stars for you.</P> <P>I'd like to offer some food for thought ...</P> <P>I have been in several situations where a higher level tank is MT (Cazic-Thule comes to mind from several weeks back) and the group has requested that I become MA.  This is a nice basic strategy, however, depending on the makeup of the group a potential formula for disaster!</P> <P>It would appear on first glance this strategy would work well.  Kalen is a tank, understands aggro management, knows the higher level MT can take a better beating with so much HP, mitigation, avoidance, etc., knows to take down no arrows first, 1 ups second, 2 ups third and named mobs last to reduce dps and mob boss buff/healing from minions, understands HOs very well and enforces them, knows not to taunt--so why is there a potential formula for disaster?</P> <P>Consider a group in the low to mid 40's in Cazic-Thule with only 1 healer.  Perhaps the makeup is as follows:</P> <P>45 Guardian, 41 Paladin, 42 Wizard, 42 Assassin, 44 Templar, 40 Swashbuckler</P> <P>Now, imagine for a moment that an encounter starts going a little bad.  The healer is experiencing some lag, falls slightly behind on a heal and low and behold an add comes into play.  I feel it's better to select another class in this situation with 1 healer then the Paladin as MA. The pally as a NO MA could quickly and easily do several things:</P> <P>1. Toss a heal on the MT to help the healer play catch up </P> <P>2. Ward the MT to reduce their damage temporarily or grant them additional AC.</P> <P>3. Use LOH if merited</P> <P>4. Depending on the condition of the mob and the MT and my ability to take damage in the short-run ... steal aggro as the last resort</P> <P>Completing any of the steps above would require me to fail as MA since I'd be switching to the MT, possibly the healer and potential to a different mob to gain aggro instead of focusing on reducing group dps from mobs as MA.  Perhaps the Wiz or Assassin should be MA in this situation? Ideas?  I love to talk tactics can you tell?</P> <P>Something you might want to clarify in the documentation would be (keep in mind I have been in few groups that have MA or understand the concepts--I may be wrong so insight is welcome)</P> <P>1. When the group is camped, the MT has a mob selected to pull, the MA has the MT selected to determine the mob being pulled.  Maybe the group is behind a wall in CT and can't see what the MT is pulling.</P> <P>2. As the pull takes place, the MA switches from targeting the MT to targeting the MOB the MT had selected.  It's then the MA's job to cycle through the mobs in the appropriate order to defeat the encounter, not the MT.</P> <P>Personally, I believe the MT should after building hate and starting aggro management on individual mob members, target the MA if no adds are present.  I've seen several situations where the MT participates in the kill on the first mob and then either just stands there or starts auto attacking a different mob then the MA.  Group members see 2 mobs in the yellow or orange and panic and stop targeting the MA and switch to the MT or worse yet, they pick a third mob and the groups focus is split across several mobs keeping incoming group dps way too long!  The whole group should understand the MT will be switching mobs constantly for aggro management as well as picking up stray mobs.  However, they must also understand it's their job to target the MA at all times.</P> <P>Let's face it ... in the 20's and 30's a need for MA isn't that abundent.  At 43, I rarely loose aggro in Rivervale and when I do it's back in seconds (most of the time), Zek and EL are the same, much of Feerrott is the same.  However, Cazic-Thule, Everfrost, Lavastorm, their special zones, etc. (40's - 50's combat) a MA can be a life saver in strategy.  Most 20 to mid 30's aren't used to seeing some of the dps classes shine with so much damage that requires extreme aggro management from the tank at higher levels.</P> <P>Thanks,</P> <P>Kalen</P>

[Oakbr]

I agree.  Most of the time, I don't want people /assisting me, even when I'm not main tank.  I will switch targets as needed, toss out a heal, grab a mob off a healer or caster, whatever it takes.  I usually nominate a high DPS class for main assist...Those guys pick their targets, and everybody but me, the MT (if not me) and the healer burn it down while I'm tanking, or off tanking as needed.

[ChuMann]

<DIV>FIVE STARS FOR KALEN!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very interesting stuff guys.  I am currently a lvl 33 pallie on the Highkeep server and this information is going to be extremely useful.  Kalen makes some remarkable statements that I haven't thought about until now.  True, the MA is something that I rarely see.  I mostly have seen and have played the role of MT or Off-Tank.  I am interested to see the upper-level zones and the role me and my fellow guild-mates will soon play.  As for now, I like to experiment with different play styles and group with different classes to try and understand the benefits of each particular class or group role.  Good stuff here, thanks.</DIV>

[Darki]

I never saw the need for MA in a leveling group.  In my eyes the MT is the MA, and any extra tanks will clean mobs off the healers, pick up adds, and keep them until the MT taunts them off. However, you will probably see a MA in every raid you attend.  The MT will tank and gain aggro with the big raid mob while the MA will target the linked mobs and call for assists. <div></div>

[SunT]

<DIV>I don't like that MA idea, it sounds good in theory but I imagine it has many frustrations and errors in practice. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MA for raids only IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kalen, Based on your scenario,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if I get an add like that I use the group shield bash then aoe and I get him every time.  Neither require targetting. He came in and grabbed the Wiz off of Prox aggro, I jsut gave him Taunt and damage aggro, if everyone continues to assist the MT he will keep beating on me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the MT needs a heal I can use passthru, and if i need a heal I have my self for 1k.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe click off my gift while I am at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And maybe I pray, but that is how I do it.</DIV>

[gachamann]

<div></div><div></div>Keeping MT and MA separate should only happen for Epic/Raid mobs or events with named that come with many adds, such as the ring event for Heart of Fear at the CT Temple (with the goos). 99% of the time, MT should be MA. What about possible conflicts where the group stays targeted on the MT while he tries to get aggro off a group member, thus cancelling his attempts to help as they attack what he's trying to grab? Simple, once you target the MT and begin attacking his mob, hit your assist key. That switches your target to his so that you're attacking directly. Now if he needs to, he can safely switch targets without worrying about others following suit. Mob dies, target the MT again, hit assist, attack directly, rinse and repeat. I'm level 47, and this works even in the high-end game. We just fought down Sol Eye this morning and killed the Efreeti Genie (nice little Lava-Forged Scimitar drop, btw, comparable to Ebon Runed Mace), and believe me, as well as I kept us in the safest of spots, there were still plenty of adds during the several hours of adventuring there. But everyone knew how to play and we never came close to a wipe. That all being said, keeping them separate does have their place in the instances described above. It's crucial during those times, actually. Just make sure you know how to use that assist key and you'll be fine. Some other thoughts on tanking for our class - After all the talk about Pallies these last few months, I prepared myself for people not understanding how well a Pally can MT. As it turns out, probably 80% of the time I'm MT, and with a couple rare exceptions, I've never had a problem keeping aggro with Zerkers/Nukers, etc. in the group. Pull, Smite Prayer, Group Shield-Bash, Ward, single taunt, fight. In the rare instance a nuker goes nuts before I even have a chance to build hate in the first few secs, yes I'll have to throw up a heal and some extra attacks to get it back, but it never takes more than a few secs, and the grp is usually quick to jump on the offender anyway for his mistake.  The key to remember here...taunts/wards will always out-hate your best attacks, (refusal of grace, oath strike, etc). For Pallies good power management is so important, b/c if you don't manage well you'll take the mob a little more quickly, but your down-time will be ridiculous as you med up from 10% while everyone else is almost full, and that's a *bad* impression to give people for our class. Was it worth using all that power to save the group an extra few seconds taking that yellow^^? It took some conscious effort to risk it to see if it worked in the beginning in groups, but that's how I found out. Of course you should use your attacks, but don't go hotbar crazy hitting every attack from strongest to weakest, waiting to recharge, and doing it over again. That all being said, you'll still use a good amount of power, so make sure you get... Manastone. Even a couple 48-49s in grp were talking about how great it still was, and for our class it's even better. As soon as your power goes down in the beginning, Ward then Manastone...then use it whenever you can. 1) You start the re-timer immediately and while still at near full health. 2) You'll lose virtually zero health (the ward absorbs it), you'll get a power boost from the very beginning, and you'll soon know instinctually when the 60sec recast has come around, give or take 5 seconds. 3) You'll be using more power than most, especially the healer if you have good armor, Avoidance and are using those wards. Even if you can't absorb the damage from the stone and the healer has to use a little more power, he's nearly at full anyway while you're at 50% at the end of the fight, why not balance it out a little more and increase group efficiency? If at all possible when you get your 42+ main heal (Divine Blessing I think it is), get a Master I if you can. You lose 600+ health from the Manastone and gain 250 or so power, but guess what? That main heal costs about 140 power, and heals for about 740. It's win-win. Theoretically, if the manastone were zero-timer recast, we'd be invincible <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Flat-edge Twirl. It sucks as an attack except for one thing, it's AE damage. If you ever run into a situation where multiple groups swarm you at once (hopeless cause) and your party doesn't think ahead enough to Evac before realizing it's no-win and someone dying, use this immediately, and then Ward. You'll get every mob's attention and you'll be able to soak in a small amount of damage from all those groups before dying, enough time to yell EVAC at least, and get your group to safety and still whole. This is an obvious one, but just in case. If you just can't get that mob off that nuker who thought he was the MT and has gone orange health before you can say "disband", LOH. You get that huge heal off, and believe me, you'll have zero pblms getting that creature's attention <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I coulda swore once I saw a Giant do a double-take behind him (as in "*$%#&!?") after I LOH'd before charging at me lol. The one thing I love about EQ2 more and more is the strategy. Everything described above, adding in 3-step group HOs so that you're popping what you need off in record time, and working so effieciently that you only have to "stop to med" rarely, that's what makes being a Pally so fun for me when in a group. In love with the Knight now more than ever.. - Ravynn 47 Paladin Najena <div></div><p>PS: Oh and btw. No matter what we do, there will *always* be someone who's convinced we can't tank. I still remember this vividly. There were 5 of us in group waiting for another (healer) to show. I was highest lvl in group at 44, and the next highest was a 41 Grdn. The healer shows up, looks at the group and says, "41Grdn MT?" </p> <p>You have no idea how hard it was for me to not say something I would have to apologize for later lol. Just expect it, because it will happen eventually. <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by gachamann on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:13 AM</span>

[JarredDarque]

Gach,  thats when you tell the new healer that he was hired on as MT, the guardian is there for DPS. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />