Monk Vs Paladin as backup tank?

[Fiflif]

<DIV>Greetings all ,</DIV> <DIV>Right now I have a 25 monk and a 25 paladin, both have adept 1 forms of Staggering stance (monk) and ancient pledge(paladin). I've noticed the 2 are about the same thing 20% bonus to avoidance of target. I notice  in my 2nd tab that I am blocking quite a few hits for the guardian. I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to which makes the better 2ndary tank though. The monk easily does 2X more damage than my paladin and the monk has much worse gear. When my paladin focuses on warding and other things he is quickly out of power and the monk outdamages him even further. Then giving up AC the paladin becomes spongebob. Many times I've taunted to save the healer after giving up my armor to the tank and nearly get killed and criticized by the group ) The biggest difference I've noticed is that the monk can constantly recast Staggering stance as long as he does it before it wears off. We have to wait for it to wear off then wait for hte recast time for it to come back and cast it again, leaving 30 seconds for the guardian to be more vulnerable. I can't seem to decide which is going to be the best backup tank  , which it seems the Devs are making our role. What are all your thoughts on this?</DIV>

[Boli32]

<div></div><p>That new buff refresh system is a pain... but the Test Server updates ay it is going to be fixed so we can have no "30second" lapse... anyway:There are three types of tankMain Tank – Keep Agro Absorb PunishmentBackup Tank – Spot Taunt, keep “Add”s at bay and step in to take the agro if the Main tank is falteringOff-Tank – Supporting the Main Tank and the HealerPaladins are perfect for the role off off-tank, and monks I think are better Backup Tanks.</p><p><!-- [if !supportEmptyParas] --> <!-- [endif] --></p><p><u>As off-tank tank we can:</u>- give MT increased avoidance, increase his mitigation with ancient pledge (plus upgrades)- Give MT more mitigation at the cost of our own with Offering of armament (plus upgrades)- Spot heal- not needing "knights stance" we can use the conc. slots to run more buffs. I can have 4 people in the group with +15STR +15STA with Vigor of trust for instance.- Ward with Demonstration of faith (plus upgrades).In fact if healer gets the agro, its ward then heal in quick succession so the healer doesn’t have the heal themselves (gaining more agro) and the Main Tank can in most cases regain control. In fact I prefer to continue to help the healer to help themselves rather than tray and take the agro as you'll only mess things up as the MT will be taunting for all his life - healing the healer will in most cases allow the healer to stop doing anything making it easier for the tank to get back the agro.<u>-- arts you do not uses as off-tank</u>- Taunt- Buffs whilst in combat (stagger them out between combats if at all possible)- Redemption... I know from experience it is best to keep our big gun on the hotbar- without knights stance, or a shield and gifting away our armament  we are sitting ducks and the last thing we want is agro - besides more than one person taunting can mess up the agro.As an off-tank we are superbly built - indeed designed for... I tend to follow around in the MT shadow warding before he pulls, starting off HOs healing if things start to look bad looking after both him and the main healer, and only then if I have nothing to do and know the fight isn’t going to last a long while... bust out the big guns and do some damage.</p><p>However good a Monk is at off-tanking I don’t think they can match all of our abilities, if you have a monk in our group who isn't MT he's best Backup tanking… which is pure damage dealing in most cases and someone to deal with adds leaving the MT to concentrate on the main problem.</p><p><!-- [if !supportEmptyParas] --> <!-- [endif] --></p><p><b>Moral of the story:</b></p><p><!-- [if !supportEmptyParas] --></p><span>Don’t taunt when healer get the agro, ward and heal.</span><div></div>

[Fiflif]

Good tips , now I jsut need to convince people that having 2 tanks in a group isn't 1 tank to many :/ I was kicked from a group camping blood talon tonight so they could pick up a guardian without warning and we even had an open slot... 5 mins later bloodtalon spawned. Kinda set off my frustration rage since it was the first group I'de had in a few days. Thanks for the great post it makes me feel alot better <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fifliffl wrote:<div></div>Good tips , now I jsut need to convince people that having 2 tanks in a group isn't 1 tank to many :/ I was kicked from a group camping blood talon tonight so they could pick up a guardian without warning and we even had an open slot... 5 mins later bloodtalon spawned. Kinda set off my frustration rage since it was the first group I'de had in a few days. Thanks for the great post it makes me feel alot better <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>My guess is if they had a spot open and still kicked you, that someone had an issue with you.....who knows the real reason, but that is what I would lean to. Warrented or not, thats what it seems. As for having a group with a Guardian and Paladin, they don't happen much...mainly because in terms of aggro management guardians, are superior, and the paladin's spot can much better be used for Utility (chanter, bard) or Secondary Healer, or more DPS. I actually enjoy playing MT in a group with a Monk playing the backup. They are great for DPS, and can pull off aggro if needed from the other classes. Plus they are much better to Main Assist then me, since I sometimes need to switch between targets and re-taunt.</span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>This thread is plain yuck!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the ONLY time a guardian *could* be a superior tank is in a raid. I have been in grps were the guard was made the off tank to me. XP grps work differently than raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I prefer to play MA tank in a raid (Main Assist), but I'm the XP tank for my guild. Everyday I take grps of 45-49 chars to lvl them, because the mechanics of a Paladin allow for ALOT more flexibility in XP/QUEST grps (And alot less downtime.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any grp that would boot you out because you're not a Guard is worthless.</DIV> <DIV>If you're having trouble with aggro, you need to slap redemption on whoever is stealing your aggro. Problem solved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 AM</span>

[Boli32]

Yeah, it seems a shame.... a pallys role of off-(or supporting) tank is pretty none exsistant. - Given the choice most players will choose 1 tank 1 (or two healers) and fill the rest of the spots with DPS, even in raids they tend to "over heal" having the main group with 3 healers, a guardian and a couple of buff-bots. The foucs is on "active" abilities, i.e. healing the tank once the damage has already been done - its taken all the brawlers this long to make the other people accept that a Shaman (wards) and a brawler is a really good combination similar to a "guardian / templar". The 1 tank two healer, 3 dps is so widespread that once when I was in a group and we were fighting giants (then to me blues), and we had one healer, 4 DPS and myself one of the mages kept saying this was a perfect group and he wished he got in them more often. The amount  of times we have been waiting aorund for a SECOND healer, it quiite unbeliveable - we had a monk, a guardian a templar a dirge and myself and they kept wittering on "we best get a second healer"... if they had found a healer and another DPS I do not doubt they would have droped me "as the other one" without a moments hesitation. The templar was the only one to stick by me and say: "this should be a piece of cake as it is, lets just go now"... and yes you guessed it wqith me supporting the guardian he never dropped below half health, and the templar had a full stack of mana at the end. Monk / Pally Guardian / Pally Monk / Guardian Having two tanks in the group make a world of difference we don't get a good portion of our arts that allow us to buff someone else for no good reason, te trouble is you DON'T SEE you NOT getting hit, the fact our buffs allowed the guardian to avoid getting hit by 2000 damage and absorb an additional 1000 doesn't show up on any DPS parser, but heals do.... and so do the mega nukes. Its just a shame... there are allways a lot of tank heavy groups aroudn just because "no-one wants more than one" - you never see "Group looking for Off-Tank" or "group looking for Secondary Tank"... we are just the inivisiable heros of the group. Pah... too much rant. <div></div>

[Boli32]

"the ONLY time a guardian *could* be a superior tank is in a raid. I have been in grps were the guard was made the off tank to me. XP grps work differently than raids." Like it or lump it... a similar level Warrior has both better defence and taunts than we do. True for smaller groups and for quest hunting I think Pallys are the best all round choice for short battles  but people only see the big numbers. And the biggest problem with redemption is it is only a single person buff. A great buff... but if you are in a dps heavy group it only works with one and if he doens't nukes as fast as his neighbour bang - you've lost agro again. <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>I disagree..even if you had a grp with a wizard or warlock or 2..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put it this way:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I put redemption on warlock and nuke to pull mob, after which I taunt, after which I refusal of grace and sworn strike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The warlock starts burning the mob, which starts feeding me THEIR aggro, or 32%. At this point I have more aggro than ANY other person in my grp. At this point, as long my main DPS is doing their job I cannot lose aggro, except by some very, very random fluke. IF I do lose aggro it takes one sworn strike and taunt and poof, its mine. If you are losing aggro on grp mobs, its either the grp is not assisting you or someone is doing a crazy AE. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any DPS worth his salt will moderate their DPS as to not pull aggro. Look in the other tanks forum and you can see that they lose aggro just like we do. The only types of chars that can pull aggro off you is a mezzer, which pisses the MOB to no end, and sometimes when the mez goes away the MOB heads straight for the cause. A wizard/warlock that does too much damage too soon, or a mystic type, which is a bugged aggro generator.</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[Titali]

<DIV>when i am with my templar friend, (i'm a pally), i'd rather have another tank, preferably guardian, than a second healer. granted i'd rather have even more dps lol.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div>when i am with my templar friend, (i'm a pally), i'd rather have another tank, preferably guardian, than a second healer. granted i'd rather have even more dps lol.</div><hr></blockquote>I am sorry, but if you are wasting 2 spots in a 6 person group for heavy armor tanks, you are not getting as good of a group as you think. Now a Paladin/Guardian with a Brawler class as a backup tank / dps, is the way to go if you really need two tanks at all. If I am a group leader, gathering the group, it depends on what we are going to pull as to what group members I look for (on Mistmoore, so normally I can get anything I need) Example: Zone - Rivervale Mobs - Nightbloods or anything that hits hard Group: MT = Myself (Paladin) Healer = And Druid of Cleric (Fury/Warden or Templar/Inquisitor) 2nd Healer = Mystic / Defilier or whatever else I can get DPS = Warlock (if none available Wizard) DPS = Rogue or Predator class Utility = Bard or Chanter Zone - Rivervale Mobs - Lamia's, Nymphs, or Rats MT = Myself Paladin Healer = Druid of Cleric DPS = Warlock/Wizard DPS = Swashie or Ranger DPS = Warlock/Wizard/ Necro or Swashie/Ranger/Assassin MA/Puller = Brawler MA = Main Assist For the best bang for your buck in this group, the Brawler Pulls the mob, mezzes it and the Paladin gains aggro on it. Now when the mob is in the red and everyone is beating on it, the Brawler rinses and repeats. Constant mob pulls in the blue --> white ^^ without much downtime, if you have nice Tier 5 drink. Just my 2 copper.    </span><div></div>

[Titali]

<DIV>i am saying INSTEAD of a SECOND healer, i'd take another tank. because i can be the second healer if need be. plowing through the tunnels in CT killnig yellow-red cons (if that qualifies as tough, nightbloods bore me to tears), never had any problems, even took th 51 named guy. high priest i think? 42temp, 43pal, 45guard, 2 wizards i dont remember and a brigand.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div>i am saying INSTEAD of a SECOND healer, i'd take another tank. because i can be the second healer if need be. plowing through the tunnels in CT killnig yellow-red cons (if that qualifies as tough, nightbloods bore me to tears), never had any problems, even took th 51 named guy. high priest i think? 42temp, 43pal, 45guard, 2 wizards i dont remember and a brigand.</div><hr></blockquote>I can see your point, I can function as a secondary healer since my heal hits for 550+ at Adept 3...   </span><div></div>

[Boli32]

Even saying that two tanks in the party can run a buff one so the MT takes less damage. <div></div>

[jshari]

Also as off tank we have rescue <div></div>

[Jindris]

Off-Tank...... Oh great, another coined term by a self-apointed know-it-all. There is main tank and backup tank. Dont over-complicate things.

[Dwergux]

<span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div>when i am with my templar friend, (i'm a pally), i'd rather have another tank, preferably guardian, than a second healer. granted i'd rather have even more dps lol.</div><hr></blockquote>I am sorry, but if you are wasting 2 spots in a 6 person group for heavy armor tanks, you are not getting as good of a group as you think. Now a Paladin/Guardian with a Brawler class as a backup tank / dps, is the way to go if you really need two tanks at all. If I am a group leader, gathering the group, it depends on what we are going to pull as to what group members I look for (on Mistmoore, so normally I can get anything I need) Example: Zone - Rivervale Mobs - Nightbloods or anything that hits hard Group: MT = Myself (Paladin) Healer = And Druid of Cleric (Fury/Warden or Templar/Inquisitor) 2nd Healer = Mystic / Defilier or whatever else I can get DPS = Warlock (if none available Wizard) DPS = Rogue or Predator class Utility = Bard or Chanter Zone - Rivervale Mobs - Lamia's, Nymphs, or Rats MT = Myself Paladin Healer = Druid of Cleric DPS = Warlock/Wizard DPS = Swashie or Ranger DPS = Warlock/Wizard/ Necro or Swashie/Ranger/Assassin MA/Puller = Brawler MA = Main Assist For the best bang for your buck in this group, the Brawler Pulls the mob, mezzes it and the Paladin gains aggro on it. Now when the mob is in the red and everyone is beating on it, the Brawler rinses and repeats. Constant mob pulls in the blue --> white ^^ without much downtime, if you have nice Tier 5 drink. Just my 2 copper.    </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Nice those group makeups, but I mostly play with whoever is available (mostly guildies). I've seen some nice groups of non-stardard makeups: 1. Guardian 2. Guardian 3. Paladin 4. Guarian 5. Warden 6. Templar Last night I was killing nightbloods too with the following group: 1. Paladin (me) 2. Templar 3. Warden 4. Monk 5. Monk We were doing just fine and having a blast. To play for exp (and get good exp mind you) you don't need a so called perfect group. A mixed group with at least some capable healer and a tank and fill ups can do just fine.</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jindrisek wrote:Off-Tank...... Oh great, another coined term by a self-apointed know-it-all. There is main tank and backup tank. Dont over-complicate things.<hr></blockquote>Actually I have heard it called Off tank much much more then backup tank. </span><div></div>

[Boli32]

Same here.... plus you can't realy qualify as a backup tank when all your buffs are on the main tank grabbing the agro is best only used as a last resort. As  lvl 32 Pally acting as "Off-Tank" running adept 1 Grant of Arment, no Shield, no +defence buff I get -15% avoidance (ish) and a good -250 mitigation. a backup tank you do not wish to be. <div></div>

[Jindris]

<DIV>Well, Monk does make a great back-up tank. I had one backing me up in a group yesterday and it was great. But I have to say as for "spot-taunting" mobs, Monks take more damage than a Paladin that is missing 250 mitigation, so the arguement that Monk makes a better backup tank than paladin is invalid. I am speaking from experience. Although I am usually missing 250 mitigation, should I decide to "spot-taunt" a mob while backing up another tank, my health does not drop nearly as steadily fast as a Monk's health does. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I would like to state as fact that Paladins makes a better main tanks than Guardian. There have been several situations in my experience as main tank that if I were a Guardian, I would have dropped dead and most likely took the rest of my group with me. And every time these situations occur and we survive the encounter, I tell the group "Good thing I'm not a Guardian or we'd all be missing shards right now."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every time I join a group I  hear negative comments like "Ok scouts, get evac ready, paladins have trouble keeping hate." or "Ok healers do you best to keep up with heals, paladins get hit hard." The list of comments of these types goes on and on. But in the end after the group is over, everyone comments my tanking. It happens every time. And sometimes I even get the idiots who bashed paladins earlier to apologize. Thats alot of fun.</DIV>