Where do we want to go?

[Troodon]

<div></div>The change to the way AC is displayed has highlighted disparities in the various fighter classes, principally that Guardians were able to achieve a higher Avoidance than Brawlers (whom natually one would think should have the highest Avoidance). The devs have commented that they're going to rexamine the way fighters perform their core function, that is to tank. Theres a lot of discussion in the Warrior and Brawler subclass forums on how they define themselves by their particular tanking focus: mitigation or avoidance, what their roles are and what they should be. We're caught in the crossfire and its probable that any change to Warriors will have a knock on effect on us given us, and may even be more significant. But anyway, thats something to look foward to. One thing I have noticed in these discussions any many others is an uncertainty on what the role of the Crusader actually is: to some we're offtanking healers and buffers, to others we're a mix of avoidance and mitigation shield specialists?, to most though theres a sort of nebulous hand waving that we're knights. So with SoE rexamining the core of the Fighter achetype, it might be a good time to come up with some ideas on where <b>we</b> want to go, how <b>we</b> want to define ourselves, what <b>we</b> feel our role should be rather than let others define it for us in off the cuff remarks while scrabbling amoungst themselves for terratory? One answer may be nowhere - that we're fine as we are. But the uncertainty that others express in our function kind of suggests that this change may offer a chance to carve our a neiche for ourselves rather than being considered a hybrid Guardian-Templer? <div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Boli32]

Strangly enough I think SOE have gotten it right with crusaders... sure we have a few broekn abilities and had our mount speed reduced in accordance with the baying crowds wishes... but on the whole we can tank - but not as good as Warriors, we can deal out some nice damage (althoguh do little else) heal pretty well (not enough to overshadow "real priests" but enough so our spot heals are an intergral part of our class and on the whole we perform pretty much what we expect. If SOE decide to "nerf" how much defence has on the avoidance rating we could be in serious trouble. Without "Knight Stance" up I would find it fifficult to solo GREYS... as it is "solo" whites and green ^^ are my equal. so in all the balancing issues that are bound to take place my only hope is at the end we would rank pretty much as we are now.  <div></div>

[Alluin]

Personally I'd like to see some of our abilities fixed and have things like this Avoidance: Brawlers > Warriors > Crusaders Mitigation: Warriors=Crusaders > Brawlers Perhaps we should have slightly more mitigation, I'm not sure. I know the type of shield 'only' contributes to avoidance so with tower shields I'd expect Warriors to have higher avoidance, also I see them as more pure fighters than us and deserve to get hit less (think about a gladiator in combat dodging etc). However with higher mitigation we'd still be balanced as tanks but it would make better use of our heals (them chipping away at our health and us restoring it) and seems to make more sense as a Crusader. When was the last time you saw a Paladin dodging? hehe <div></div>

[Boli32]

"When was the last time you saw a Paladin dodging?" Never on foot.... but on horseback knight's were quite agile with horse and man moving as one... it would be nice that if we DID get nerfed defence wise - that if we were MOUNTED we gained defensive bonuses. and make the holy steed an integral part of the class. Naturlaly this would be balance that in a dungeon we woudl be more suseptable to hits. If anythign close to this tok place though I hope SOE redifine the horse models and get them to look and move more like horses - especially in combat. <div></div>

[Kharadr]

Since guardians don't have runes or heals, they should have a lil better mitigation than paladins, I think. <div></div>

[Pidgeon]

<DIV>I like they way we are. Don't change a thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spend maybe 90% of my time adventuring and soloing, and paladins are best in game for this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have guardians in my guild who are of a higher level who winge at my abilities to kill green ^^ and even sometimes blue ^^ mobs.</DIV>

[darkkr]

<DIV>I want to play the Paladin I played yesterday, but with a small chance at gaining new combat animations for fluff.</DIV>

[trout]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pidgeon wrote:<BR> <DIV>I like they way we are. Don't change a thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spend maybe 90% of my time adventuring and soloing, and paladins are best in game for this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have guardians in my guild who are of a higher level who winge at my abilities to kill green ^^ and even sometimes blue ^^ mobs.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Agreed. I think we are pretty much right where we should be. I feel like we solo better than any other class. We are able to fill the role of MT quite nicely. And our combination of buffs, heals, and wards make us a valuble asset to any grp.</P> <P> As mentioned by another poster, better combat animations would be nice, particularly while mounted, but at some lvl that is just fluff.</P> <DIV>Pally rocks, IMHO we are the best/most fun class in the game.</DIV>

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<P>A Paladin is a tank and damage dealer primarily, with some additional support abilities to give him minor flexibility and assure it's ability to contribute to a group even if not tanking.</P> <P>THAT is what the Paladin is in EQ 2. </P> <P>A similar description can be given for almost all warrior based characters as well. The problems only arrise when you get people with the min/max mindset or those who need 'the best' of a class type in order to play the game.</P> <DIV>I LIKE where we are now. We are VERY viable and do what we do well. I just want to see the classes few buggs fixed so our abilities work as the text descibes them.</DIV> <DIV>If all the warrior mitigation tanks are reduced and the avoidance tanks are improved I can live with it since the avoidance tanks are NOT functional as they are supposed to be as they are now.</DIV>

[Hephaet]

<P>I am very happy with paladins.  I like how I tank.  And I like how I offtank.  </P> <P>If they change anything about us, i think it should be in more class defining skills/spells.  And sure it would be nice to have some minor changes, like a ranged slot item or wards that weren't so power inefficient.  Overall though, I agree with the rest of you.  After 41 lvl's so far I like my paladin more and more.</P>

[Troodon]

<div></div>Thank you for your thoughts. So broadly people are happy with what we are, but is there anything you'd like to change or improve. As has been pointed out by Hephaetus we (along with a few others) lack the use of a ranged slot and the  not inconsiderable bonuses the items that can go there offer. Is there anything else that could be changed, particularly anything that might help better define our role?<span><span></span></span><a target="top" href="../view_profile?user.id=18613"><span></span></a><div></div>

[Boli32]

Only thing I woudl "desire" above all elese is when the efence changes come in (i.e. we being hit more for less damage) some measure is taken so w arn't rendered completely useless for while Guardians make a big fuss over when they can't use some abilities when stunned we are not only goign to have a similar problem from being hit a lot more but since most of our abilities are "spells" we are goign to see a LOT more interrupts and fizzles. At the end of the day though if we play as effectivly after as well as before the defence changes I would be happy - anythign else is just a bonus (such as horse combat taking a more central space in animations and abilities) <div></div>

[Yrield]

<P>Thing are correct like they are now</P> <P>Mitigation: warrior > crusader > brawler</P> <P>Avoidance: brawler > crusader > warrior</P> <P>Avoidance main skill:</P> <P>warrior = block</P> <P>crusader = parry</P> <P>brawler = deflection</P> <P>The whole war between warrior and brawler tanking abilities is just ridiculous, brawler tend to balance themself like a scout. You can see them run around with 60 STR, 200 AGI, 25 STA. That not the way to go if you want to tank, you can't avoid 100% of the incoming hit... boosting AGI is not the way to go when your starting advoidance skill is already high... they should put some point into STA if they want to survive. Monk also have self buff to gain +50% of mitigation, put they dont like the skill cause they can't "dps" anymore, go figure....</P> <P>And yes we are stuck in the crossfire simply because:</P> <P>Guardian want to mitigate 100% of the dmg</P> <P>Monk want to avoid 100% of the hit</P> <P>As the class who rely on both mitigation and avoidance (by design) those change will hurt us more than any other class and i can already hear "but you can heal and ward..." yeah and i can watch the bird fly while im OOM...</P>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Yreil has a valid statement.  Where should our direction head.  What is the one thing that was not mentioned above.  Caster damage.  Sure we get a divine resist buff but how about getting our overall resists raised.  This actually bring a new model of tanking than just avoidance and mitigation.  Now your would have 3 defined classes of tank geared more specifically at designed mobs.  As we are more of a spell caster this makes a bit more sense.  Sure you get plenty of buffs from group mates but how about all our resists go up.  Just for the paladin and not a group buff.  THis would make us MT in heavy casting situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So</DIV> <DIV>Warrior Class = Physical Mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Brawler           = Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Crusader        = Spell Mitigation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV>

[trout]

<P>Interesting idea Talbot. </P> <P>My concern is that in the interest of balance, if we were to gain divine/magical resist, wouldn't it be likley that we would lose some avoidance/mitigation. I'm not saying that would be totally unacceptable but it may impact our abiltity to tank or even off tank in melee combat. I'm not sure I'm willing to make that sacrifice.</P> <P>I'm only lvl 27 so my exposure to the high end game is nearly nill. Are the Mobs in the 40+ range more caster oriented? This would certainly help alliviate some of my concerns. </P> <DIV>I do like the idea off playing upon our role of holy warrior/knight. At least from a RP perspective I consider this class defining. </DIV>

[Dasein]

Casters are definitely a bigger threat at higher levels. At level 40, I can easily take down a group of level 35 melee mobs, but a group of casters at the same level will rip me to shreds. You'll get stifled, dotted, nuked and rooted, and all your spells will be interrupted, and then you'll die.

[Dagrean]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Mitigation: warrior > crusader > brawler</P> <P>Avoidance: brawler > crusader > warrior</P> <P>Avoidance main skill: <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Problem is, this ISN"T a realistic view of the picture. why? </P> <P>guardians with self buffs right now can self buff 23 defense skill. on top of that, most of the favorite races can choose a +5 defense racial attribute. thier defense skill ( which in guardians case is the determining factor in wether a mob misses or hits) is effectively self buffed to 5.6 levels higher than they stand at the current time. This may not be a problem in of itself, but when combined with the stackabiity of thier skills, the superior shileding of tower shields, Guardians are able to make mobs 4 levels above them unable to hit them. period. They actually have 100% avoidance at level, (and in many cases, above  it), in most cases in raid envioroments with buffs and such, along with vastly superior mtitigation. So is that what it's painting a picture of:</P> <P>Mitigation : warrior > crusader > brawler</P> <P>Avoidance: guardian > monk > bruiser > crusader /berseker</P> <P>so, the question becomes without question, why is it ok for guardians to buff Defense to ungodly amounts and not be hit, when they are the mitigation thanks, and are supposed to be being hit alomost 50-60% of the time, yet mitigate damage?</P> <P>I think you have to take it as a while of the pie, and say, what dowe want the through % of damage over time to be for any fighter. how do we achieve that goal in 3 diffrent means, (or 6 diffrent ways) without making the classes the same? certainly, changing the way mobs do damage is a start, as those mobs tend to only be survivable in cases where you avoid the majority of strikes, And mitigate the majority of damage. so change the way mobs do damage. but that cant be all you change, because , in the end, guardians become High mitigating monks. they don't get hit, and when they do, they mitigate most if not all of the hits. clearly, this isn't the intent of the game design. </P> <P>So we must look at the 3 classes, and the ways they deal with damage absorbtion. </P> <P>Obviously since there are 3 types of ways of dealing with damage, and we have three classes the balance praticly writes itself if we want to categorize what each tank should be good at and in what order they should fall.</P> <P>Avoidance         Mitigation          Deferment (wards/heals) <HR> Brawler             Warrior             Crusader <P></P> <P>Warrior             Crusader          Brawler</P> <P>Crusader          Brawler             Warrior</P> <P>As you can see,  each class falls in line with each category providing an oppurtunity for equal balance for Each class, at all levels of the game, depending on where they should be with respect to one another's abilities, and how they should deal with damage in general. this is evident from the games design. </P> <P>We could even go farther, and take a step and state, Since we know what % at what lvel we want (presumably) tanks to take damage from, Assign values to each individual rows %.  Assuming we wanted to let 20% of a mobs damage threw:</P> <P>Absorb %         Avoidance         Mitigation          Deferment (wards/heals) <HR> <P>50%                 Brawler             Warrior             Crusader</P> <P></P> <P>20%                 Warrior             Crusader          Brawler</P> <P>10%                 Crusader          Brawler             Warrior</P> <P>Thus, A brawler would  Avoid 50%, Defer 20%, and mitigate 10%. (note that is a simplistic view of the world, and can be broken down in diffrent ways.) at the same time, both the warrior and Crusader  are using thier diffrent abilities to absorb the same amount of damage in a different manner. Different, but equal.</P> <P>Is it more difficult to achieve in a complex envioroment? certainly, but sticking to a core understanding of basic tenant, that can be expanded upon, one can design a system that is complex, well founded and is still equally interesting and enertaining for everyone.</P> <P>I think it's a very limited view of the world to state that we, as pakadins, or crusaders for that matter, should be limited to group tanking, or off tanking, when it's the vision , the basic design tenant of the system in wich we participate that all fighters should tank - just in a diffrent manner, Achieve the same end goal. the warriors have more utility than you might think - they are cpaable off off tanking, rescuing, and other things just as much as paladins are, and just as Monks are - they should not have the same old tired of exscuse that your utility begets our tanking superiority. They have Utility , they have buffsm just as we do,  and they are useful in groups outside the MT seat, nevermind in raids. Just as crusaders can step up to the plate and MT and Monks can. A few things are broken about the system, and they will be addressed.</P> <P>It's time to take our heads out from between our legs and stop fighting over whos going to be MT just because of class, and realize that it really doesn't matter - all of our classes are designed to allow us to play multiple roles in groups and raids, including that one spot. Any one other class having a chance at that spot isn't going to preclude you from it - Only not knoing your class or the game will do that. </P> <P>~Dagrean~</P>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>The only problem with the above example is who would choose a crusader class when 50% of the mitigation comes from self heals, to everyone's eyes we woudl be hit 90% of the time and only mitigate 20% of the damage. Add to that being the tank means beaning on the front line and as it is heals get interupted half the time as it is.. It a nice idea but  try this run of numbers a bit less drastic on how much we should self heal. Every fighter as a 40% Mitigation and a 40% Avoidance (base) and sheilds should add mitigation / avoidance depending on their size Guardian  +10% Mitagtion (Warrior Buffs) +10% Mitigation (Heavy armour) +10% Mitigation (Tower Sheilds) +10% Mitigation (Guardian self buffs) Beserker +10% Mitagtion (Warrior Buffs) +10% Mitigation (Heavy armour) +10% Mitigation (Tower Sheilds) Brawler  +30% Avoidance (Brawler) +10% Avoidance (Small/Round Sheild) Crusader +10% Avoidance (Increased Parry) +10% Mitigation (Heavy armour) + 5% Avoidance / + 5% Mitigation (Kite Shield) + 5% Mitigation (Crusader Self Buffs  - such as Knight's stance) Leaving Guardian   80% Mitigation 40% Avoidance Beserker   70% Mitigation 40% Avoidance (but with increased DPS) Brawler     40% Mitigation 80% Avoidance Crusader  60% Mitigation 55% Avoidance If 100 hits from a mob that do 100 potential damage a piece then: Gurdians get hit 60 times for 20 damage = 1200 Berserkers get hit 60 times for 30 damage = 1800 - But end the fight after only being hit 40 times = 1200 Brawlers avoid all but 20 which each does 60 damage =  1200 Crusaders parry away 55 of them, getting hit 45 times for 40 damage each = 1800 (but heal twice for 600 = 1200) SK will heal for less but finish the fight quicker and thus take less damage overall. As for damage: Guardians = 1 Paladins = 2 Shadowknights =3 Beserkers = 4 Brawlers = 5 Warriors with Dual Wield +2 damage rating -10% Mitigation (No Shield) Warriors with Two Hander +1 damage rating   -10% Mitigation (No Shield) Crusaders with Two Hander +1 damage rating -5% Mitigation, -5% Avoidance (No Shield) Crusaders Using Mana for Nukes +2 damage rating (i.e. no heals estimated Mitigation loss -25%) Do Brawlers use anythgin other than dual weild?!? <p>Message Edited by boli on <span class="date_text">03-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:54 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:55 AM</span>