Maintaining Agro.

[Trathe]

Hullo long time reader here first time poster..  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I will get right down to the point. Last night I was MT on two occasions one time in RoV and another in TS doing Skindancers.  Both times I had a Beserker in the group.  Both times it was immpossible to keep agro.  I have had nuke happy wizards, heal happy doodads, heck even slash happy beserkers before and I never had a problem!  I used all the tricks I know... Buffs, Taunts, Redemption, AOE Taunts (one singles), Heals, Zeal, heck even did Rescue and I could not get agro off the Zerker!  The first one was real sad the one in RoV I even saw him w/ only one (yup one) dual wield weapon and no shield.. just one pristine carbonite short sword.  I am a level 27 paladin with either AppIV or Adept1 Taunts (AppIV some times since well AB paladins Adepts some times go for a crazy 20g). I play a level 26 guardian too.  But have well sort of decided to focus on the Paladin due to the the inherent need to be a smarter player to keep agro.  I thought I was doing great well till last night.  I can keep agro w/ the guardian w/ my eyes shut, heck a monkey can keep agro w/ a guardian (not that is a bad thing). My weapon at the time was Berik Sword of Thunder as well. Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated.  Any tips would be appreciated.  Did I all of a sudden hit an unforeseen wall?  Is it bug related to latest patch (have not played till last night since latest recent "Patch"). Signed in service to the dream, Confused and Addled Paladin

[CloakV]

Humm, Personaly, I've never had a problem holding agro and I'm also 27th level. However, I can think of a couple of things that may be causing the problem. 1. You may not be establishing enough hate in the first place before everyone else starts laying on the firepower. 2. If using HO's and you have off tanks in the group who are moronic and trying to complete the HO's themselves when the taunt symbol comes up. So if they're mashing away at their taunts every time they see the horn symbol on the HO wheel. This would obviously cause a big problem. (it certainly sounds the case if its a zerker pulling agro off you when you have mages nuking as well and they're not the ones taking the agro away). 3. Its also possible that the zerker may be using other hate specific generating special attacks. (again this is an ignorance issue on the part of the zerker) 4. If they're not assisting you and attacking a different mob, by the time you start on that mob they will have already built up a lot of agro which will be difficult to counter. If its an issue of not building hate to start off with, heres how i work it. 1. When i pull i have a hot key message that tells the group what I'm attacking , to assist me and also to wait for the red mist (i.e the visual element of the taunts.) 2. I start a HO as i pull. The finishing element of all our HO's is a taunt. 3. The group then joins in. 4. I lay on  a shield bash type taunt  next. 5.  As my single taunt recycles i reuse it. If its a group i reuse the group taunt. The key is to save at least one taunt doesn't matter if its a shield bash, single taunt or group taunt. )this is for those pesky adds. So far I've never lost control of a mob using this method, even with a wizard in the group 2 levels higher than me.  I have a few adept 1's and all others are app4's.  Only inflame is adept 1 in the taunt range.  I've never had to use rescue and I've never had to have redemption active (if thats the one that transfers hate from one person to you?)  If, i ever find an instance where by I'm loosing agro to one person then i will apply that skill to them, as of yet its not happened. (thankfully) Always keep up divine inspiration. Its a constant boost to your agro level from all group members. As i mentioned i'm guessing its more likely down to ignorance on the part of the off tank using his own taunts. In this case if you're the main tank be sure to tell them not to use taunt skills, it may just be a case of the fact that they havent even considered what they're doing to be causing the problem. If they continue to be an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] (you'll spot it from the red mist on the mobs when u havent just cast a taunt yourself) either leave the group, kick them from the group or let them be main tank. If other group members insist on nuking or whatever before you've laid on your first taunt again educate them. I think for the most part people that cause problems in groups is just because they are unaware of the roles and how to play their part effectively and if you aproach advising them how they can be more productive in the correct manor then they'll be only too happy to learn. Of course you'll meet some who think they know it all and will do their own thing to others disreguard. Finally always be open to listen to others advise yourself because you may just learn something real usefull yourself most players have alts and some really know their stuff. They may be playing a enchanter today but they could also have the best darn tank going as an alt. Hope you can pick up something usefull from my late night ramblings. Warlock 32nd level Warden 31st level Paladin 27th level Ranger 27th level Conjourer 23rd level Assasin 23rd level <div></div>

[Troodon]

It sounds like you bent over backwards, using every trick we have to try to maintain aggro. Ultimately hate management is a responsibility of everyone, that if things are getting that bad its perhaps time to have a word with folks and ask them to consider taking it easy on mobs initially and only opening up with all guns once a mob is about 50% health. Truisms asside, as a class do we have problems maintain aggro in certain situations? Adventuring with guild mates in the Condemed Catecombs with a mix of classes including a Berserker 3 levels or so below me, for a change of pace and to prevent anyone getting bored we'd swap roles on the Limestone watchers (its a fairly controled situation in comparison to dealing with the goblins): I'd off tank and she would take the role of main tank. As an experiment I tried to steal aggro off her on one of the skeletons, just couldnt do it. Taunts, buffs, heals, wards, damage rattled off, short of putting Redemption up on her I couldnt pull aggro off her. So I cant really offer a solution to what to do in such situations other than asking your group mates to watch their aggro. This may be a problem all Fighters face? But it does smart a bit like asking others to make allowances for the problems of our class. <div></div>

[ryan000]

I agree that aggro management is the responsibility of the entire group.  The game is still fairly new and there are still a lot of players who are absolutely convinced that they need to dish out as much dps as quickly as possible.  There are also those who enjoy pulling aggro from the main tank just to prove they can. <div></div>

[xxalan]

<DIV>First off, i am willing to bet, as a typical paladin, your taunts are probably appr 2.  You all know that armorsmiths upgrade your spells, but if you didn't know, alchemists can make upgrades for you spells as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd, this is like a fury complaining that defilers have better wards.  Warriors are designed to be tanks, so they automatically have better taunts.  Paladins are a utility class, with heals, and other buffs, and should learn to use them and leave the tanking to warriors when they have one.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next, you are probably pulling with your dd spell.  If you do you need to follow up immediatly with a tank.  If a mob gets hit for 100 or whatever your dd spell is doing, then a wizard does 500, that is going to be tough for you to get the mob off the wizard.  Now you could tell your wizard to stop being a wizard and quit nuking, so you can try to be a guardian and hold aggro, or you could just let the berserker be a berserker and be mt.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins are designed to be tanks in a pinch, so yes you can tank, but you need to let the group know that you can't hold aggro as well as a berserker, so plz stop taunting.  You should know that berserkers need to get hit to do a lot of their special attacks and buffs, so there is no reason for a paladin to be tanking in the first place over a berserker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Troodon]

<div></div>xxalanxx wrote: "First off, i am willing to bet, as a typical paladin, your taunts are probably appr 2.  You all know that armorsmiths upgrade your spells, but if you didn't know, alchemists can make upgrades for you spells as well." Apart from Redemption which is at Apprentice 4, all my spells and combat arts are at Adept 1 or better. "2nd, this is like a fury complaining that defilers have better wards.  Warriors are designed to be tanks, so they automatically have better taunts.  Paladins are a utility class, with heals, and other buffs, and should learn to use them and leave the tanking to warriors when they have one. " That told me I guess, Ill just hold your horses reigns and polish your armour, dont mind me m'lord. "Next, you are probably pulling with your dd spell.  If you do you need to follow up immediatly with a tank." You dont say? Wow, I feel like Moses here. Thank you for this revelation! "Paladins are designed to be tanks in a pinch, so yes you can tank, but you need to let the group know that you can't hold aggro as well as a berserker, so plz stop taunting.  You should know that berserkers need to get hit to do a lot of their special attacks and buffs, so there is no reason for a paladin to be tanking in the first place over a berserker." Fair enough, I disagree reguarding the role of Crusaders but well we're each entitled to our opinions. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 AM</span>

[Boli32]

The only times I have had problems with agro is usually due to THREE reasons:- Other fighter classes are using taunts to complete HO (how I DISPISE them *shakes fist*).- A secxondary Paladin using Redemption on one of the DPS classes allways manages to peel off one of mobs onto them.- A Berserker is in the group.Yes, Berserkers have this nasty habit of steeling agro and because of our "below par" taunts.NOTE: This is in comparion to a warrior's taunts... not a complaint an observation, and while we do have comparitivly the same number of taunting abilities (such as heals/wards/buffs) these are subject to interrupts and fizzles.This seems to be a problem with the berserker class itself, half of their abilities have some taunting action it seems.Untill this is fixed, whack Redemption onto a berserker if you have them in the party, in fact this is the only time I have been REQUIREED to cast redemption on an ally to keep agro. Guardians also have this habit of agro stealing off us as well... but 9/10 a similar level guardian will be tanking and you'll be offtanking anyway so it is less noticable.

[xxalan]

<DIV>I don't understand this thread, the whole point of a tank is to hold aggro so the healer only has to focus on 1 person.  If a berserker can take aggro just by using thier attacks, then who do you think should be tanking?  We aren't talking about a wizard or scout pulling aggro, berserkers are a tanking class. And if you are with one that can take aggro, it isn't the berserker who is 'stealing' aggro, it is the paladin that is losing aggro.  </DIV>

[Troodon]

<div></div>Indeed, thus we have the problem described with our ability to maintain hate. You may feel this is a non issue as in your opionion we're not supposed to tank, its my opinion that it is a problem as I feel we should be able to fufil the fighters role. But thank you anyway for your views. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:05 AM</span>

[Deathspell]

I don't consider losing aggro to a guardian a failure, it IS what they do coz they are a pure tanking class. I know many of you don't like this to be said, but we are not the same as Guardians, otherwise they didn't need to make 2 different classes. <div></div>

[trout]

<P>Sounds like you did everyithing you could to keep argo. I'm of the opinion that you were probably the victim of the other fiighter using his taunts to steal argro from you. </P> <P>The way I see it you have 3 options at ithis point.</P> <P>1. Educate the other fighter to not use his taunts. </P> <P>2. Leave the group.</P> <P>3. Let the other be the MT. </P> <P>I would go 1, then 3, then 2. </P> <P>IMHO we are the best class at OT. I am often called upon by my guild to be the MT and I think I do a pretty good job. However I have no problem at all defering to another fighter even if they are a few lvls lower than me. After all with our buffs/heals and wards no other class can match us in the off tank role and my primary goal is to make the grp as strong as possible. Also as an OT I can allow the lower lvl MT to take on MOBs he/she may not normaly be able to. Granted I grp almost exclusivly with my guildies so the ego thing is not really an issue. I guess that is the point of my post...don't feel like you are being demoted to an OT, think of it as working with your grp to make the most of what you have to offer and allowing the other tanks oppourtunities they may not normally get.</P> <P>Just my 2cp.</P>

[SunT]

<P>Pally's make the mistake of thinking our taunts are sufficient.  They are not.  Guards have better and more taunts.  The Zerk gets hate generaters in there fighting abilities.  Our 'taunts' are not just 'taunts' they are a myriad of different arts that work together.  If another tank does not stop taunting you will not keep the aggro unless you use it all.  So first get him to stop taunting or boot him.</P> <P>I don't have aggro issues and I can't use all of my abilities or I will take aggro from the MT when I assist.  I use ALL of the abilities that are given to me not just the ones that say 'taunt'.</P> <P>Cast redemption on the highest DPS in group.  I think you get 23% of thier aggro.  Yes it is two conc slots but well worth it.  This is the biggest thing when tanking in a high dps group, your best tool IMO.</P> <P>Don't just rely on taunts.  Your shield bash line are taunts as well and the first group bash is a better taunt according to the description then our taunt.  Your buffs are taunts.  Your heal and ward generate aggro like a taunt.  Your ranged divine attack has a hate modifier.  Use it all.</P> <P>IMO we can hold aggro better than any other tank.  We have far more abilities to generate aggro.  But we are mana inneficient in comparison.</P>

[xxalan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR> Indeed, thus we have the problem described with our ability to maintain hate.<BR><BR>You may feel this is a non issue as in your opionion we're not supposed to tank, its my opinion that it is a problem as I feel we should be able to fufil the fighters role. But thank you anyway for your views.<BR> <P>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <SPAN class=date_text>03-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:05 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You can fill a fighters roll, just as a dirge could fill the dps roll of a wizard, or a conjuror could fill the crowd control roll of an illusionist,  but certain classes just do things better than others.  If you have a wizard, let him nuke and the dirge debuff/buff, if you have an illusionist, let him cc and the conjurer dps, if you have a guardian, let him tank and the pally buff/ward/backup heal.</P> <P>The OP's question was how do i hold aggro, and it was answered, tell the zerker and wizard to slow down, let the zerker tank, upgrade your taunts, or leave the group.  </P> <P> I have a feeling that soon paladins will start a campaign to get better taunts.  Then guardians will want heals, then wardens will get mad because guardians and paladins can heal and will want better armor, then inquisitors will get mad because wardens can use plate armor and whine til they get movement buffs etc. Every class is different and can do different things.  Just from looking at the 'issues' of paladins I would say paladins are pretty well off.  Paladins are concerned that their fun squire spell doesn't attack, their free horse doesn't go fast enough, and they can't use axes, whereas necromancers class defining pets won't attack and coercers lvl 50 dd spell does the same damage as their lvl 27 one.  Granted if there are broken spells or bugs i would hope you talk to soe about it.</P> <P>Paladins can tank, heal, ward, get a free speed buff, can wear the best armor in the game, and now can use most weapons.  Now you want to taunt as well as a guardian too? Hey SoE, how about a pet and a mez spell too while you are at it?  Why don't we just erase every other class and give all the spells to paladins, so 1 class that can do everything, wouldn't that be neat.</P>

[Syf]

<DIV>I've had some trouble with multiple mob encounters in dungeon areas like varsoon, where the group has to stay close together. I'll usually try to  get my group-taunt off, a shield bash, ward, then group buffs, and a H.O. ... but sometimes the other mobs that I don't have targeted will still veer off and attack another group member. And it's not always the same group member that gets attacked, so I can't just have redemption on that one person. Just curious... do you usually keep one mob targetted until it's dead, or do you cycle thru them, single-taunting each one? </DIV>

[Hephaet]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xxalanxx wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't understand this thread, the whole point of a tank is to hold aggro so the healer only has to focus on 1 person.  If a berserker can take aggro just by using thier attacks, then who do you think should be tanking?  We aren't talking about a wizard or scout pulling aggro, berserkers are a tanking class. And if you are with one that can take aggro, it isn't the berserker who is 'stealing' aggro, it is the paladin that is losing aggro.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just because you can get aggro doesn't neccessarily mean you should tank.  The tank is the person who can take the biggest beating and still be standing.  Hence the name "tank."  Also, aggro control can be a  group problem.  If you have players who just blow through their power bars saying, "its the tanks job to keep aggro" thats a bad player.  Maybe this isn't the case in this situation though.</P> <P>My two cents here is if you are trying all you can to maintain aggro.  Look at what the person taking aggro is doing.</P> <P>1. Is the person on your target?</P> <P>2. Is the person blowing huge amounts of power right from the beginning?</P> <P>If they aren't doing anything wrong switch tanks if they can take the beating.  "you spank it you tank it" so to speak.  Paladins have lots to offer in either roll.</P> <P>What I have been doing lately when pulling is.  Pull with my ranged dd, ward while running back, taunt, taunt asap.  What I do after that varies on how well I maintian aggro with just that.  Sometimes I need to hit skills constantly.  Sometimes I can just conserve power and just hit a few skills.  Maintaining the aggro for me, varies a lot on the players in the group.  </P> <P>Everyone in the group should understand that if people can conserve power and still keep up a good pace it means <STRONG>more </STRONG>exp and better prepared when stuff goes wrong.  </P>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syfft wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've had some trouble with multiple mob encounters in dungeon areas like varsoon, where the group has to stay close together. I'll usually try to  get my group-taunt off, a shield bash, ward, then group buffs, and a H.O. ... but sometimes the other mobs that I don't have targeted will still veer off and attack another group member. And it's not always the same group member that gets attacked, so I can't just have redemption on that one person. Just curious... do you usually keep one mob targetted until it's dead, or do you cycle thru them, single-taunting each one? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never switch targets until I have one out of control.</P> <P>If I lose one I switch to get him back, then back to my original mob.</P> <P>If I get an add that is on someone else, I shield bash and use my AOE's.  They hit the broad area and should get him on me as long as the other person is not engaged on him.  If I still don't have him I switch.</P> <P>If I am doing groups of singles, I use my aoe's at every refresh and as long as everyone assists, I don't lose them.</P> <P>You don't need redemption on each person.  The person you give it to give you 23% of thier aggro so you have yours PLUS 23% of thiers and they have -23% or thiers.  If given to a high DPS, they have a lesser chance of getting aggro and every swing they give you additional hate.  As long as you continue to generate hate in a reasonable manor you won't lose aggro.</P> <P>The times I start to have issues are long fights when I am conserving my mana for emergency heals and taunts.  This is a problem and a class issue.  It is expensive, power wise, for Pallies to hold aggro.  We do an awesome job but we are sprinters IMO.</P> <P> </P>

[Trathe]

<span><blockquote><hr>xxalanxx wrote:<div>First off, i am willing to bet, as a typical paladin, your taunts are probably appr 2.  You all know that armorsmiths upgrade your spells, but if you didn't know, alchemists can make upgrades for you spells as well.</div> <div> </div> <div>2nd, this is like a fury complaining that defilers have better wards.  Warriors are designed to be tanks, so they automatically have better taunts.  Paladins are a utility class, with heals, and other buffs, and should learn to use them and leave the tanking to warriors when they have one.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Next, you are probably pulling with your dd spell.  If you do you need to follow up immediatly with a tank.  If a mob gets hit for 100 or whatever your dd spell is doing, then a wizard does 500, that is going to be tough for you to get the mob off the wizard.  Now you could tell your wizard to stop being a wizard and quit nuking, so you can try to be a guardian and hold aggro, or you could just let the berserker be a berserker and be mt.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins are designed to be tanks in a pinch, so yes you can tank, but you need to let the group know that you can't hold aggro as well as a berserker, so plz stop taunting.  You should know that berserkers need to get hit to do a lot of their special attacks and buffs, so there is no reason for a paladin to be tanking in the first place over a berserker.</div><hr></blockquote>Firstly, you sir are not a troll.  You are a troglodyte.  A troll at least has a chance to be a paladin.  You have a misinformed and misguided opinion but it is yours and you are entitled to it.  But for the record armorsmiths make armor not spells. Sedondly, yes all my skills are adept 1 or AppIV.  You would think if I have Berik , Sword of Thunder I would take the time and money to upgrade my spells.  Yes?  You obviously are oblivious or lack the grey matter to put that thought process together. Thirdly, I did not complain that the berserker had better taunts I was asking the fellow Paladins out there what they did in my situation.  Fourthly, yes I did pull w/ the dd spell but it was immediately followed buy an inflame and/or a AoE taunt before I hit the group.  It was not a wizard it was a beserker I had a wizard in the group not getting any agro problems.  The first case as was a newb berserker that had a Vest of the Fabricator.. Very Light Armor.. so you expect  a healer to heal a MT w/ friggen Very Light Armor?  Please I do not want to be that healer (yes I have a 36 Mystic).  So what I did was bow out of the group.  The second case?  Well I went into roll of off tank but you most likely don't know what that is.  Well as a healer I know that I want the person w/ the most mitigation and the most avoidance to be my MT I don't know what you would want in your world.  In both cases I had the better armor and the better avoidance. Paladins are not tanks in a pinch.  I have tanked epics, I have tanked large groups, and I have tanked multiple groups.  Guardians and Berserkers require no thought to hold agro paladins do.  We don't have the HtL we don't have a myriad of Group Buffs.  But we have Redemption, we have heals, we have wards, and we have other things as well.  I just wish I could run multiple Redemptions like I used to be able to but that is no longer. So please go be a troglodyte some where else. For the other Paladins here.. I have found out that what one of you mentioned may be the key.  Do a quick HO right after pull.  Reason is that I was able to steal agro from a berserker since I got Oath Strike (a nice adept was in me backpack waiting for the day).  But with another berserker I was not able to when she had done a quick ho prior to bringing the mob to the group.  Soooo... I will try that now (even though with her I would not try to steal agro since she had more Mitigation and higher Avoidance)</span><div></div>

[I]

<span><blockquote><hr>xxalanxx wrote: <div> Warriors are designed to be tanks, so they automatically have better taunts.  Paladins are a utility class, with heals, and other buffs, and should learn to use them and leave the tanking to warriors when they have one.  </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins are designed to be tanks in a pinch, so yes you can tank, but you need to let the group know that you can't hold aggro as well as a berserker, so plz stop taunting.  You should know that berserkers need to get hit to do a lot of their special attacks and buffs, so there is no reason for a paladin to be tanking in the first place over a berserker.    </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>First off.. if the Berserker is taunting while you're MT that's a problem special attacks or not. It's simply silly to expect a healer to  keep two tanks upright. Secondly  I can't believe people still look at Knights as a utility class.  One has to wonder if people actually read these boards during developement or if they just assumed THIS game would be like EQ1. Knight's are TRUE tanks in EQ2, live it, accept it, love it.. </span><div></div>

[xxalan]

<DIV>Irony:  Starting a helpful post, then flaming someone so the thread has a good chance to be locked.  I won't continue flaming, because this post has some good info.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do want to point out that a wizard who could hold aggro in tissue paper for armor would be more effective as a tank than a platemailed paladin who couldn't.  Mitigation doesn't help much if you aren't getting hit.  Granted that i didn't know your zerker had light armor, and i guess i have to believe you because you said so. But still, if you are a good player, who upgrades all your spells, and some newb berserker comes along and steals aggro, you have to take a look at your role as mt in general.  In that situation, yes, let the zerker know that he needs to lay off the taunts.  If you come accross a guardian/zerker with halfway decent armor, maybe you should consider letting him tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pis sing contests in groups don't go over well for anyone.  When i group with a paladin with my zerker, the encounter usually goes something like:  Paladin pulls with dd spell, taunts, 3 seconds later mob is on wizard, 1 taunt and aggro is on me, after spam taunting instead of dd'ing from the paladin, the mob finally dies, and the pally asks, 'why you steal my aggro? I am 2 lvls over you, don't taunt plz.'  </DIV>

[xxalan]

<DIV>stupid forums sorry bout that</DIV><p>Message Edited by xxalanxx on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:55 PM</span>

[xxalan]

<DIV>Tripple post, new record for me sorry again, got the login loop </DIV><p>Message Edited by xxalanxx on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 PM</span>

[Illyakuran]

<DIV>At what level does Redemption get a replacement? I've pretty much soloed levels 38-42 but am hoping to have time to go back to grouping soon. Somepoint in those levels Redemption went grey.</DIV> <DIV>I'm guessing that how to generate aggro from levels 42 to 50 does not change from lower levels, meaning taunts, wards, and heals, but as wizards and scouts deal out more damage now maintaing it may be tougher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Troodon]

As with Rescue (which does actually have its uses - its an instant taunt that also bumps you up a place in a mobs hate list e.g. useful in a situation where mobs have just poped on a group member and they've gained aggro), I dont think Redemption is ever upgraded? <div></div>

[Troodon]

<div></div><a target="top" href="../view_profile?user.id=139681"><span>xxalanxx</span></a> wrote:"Irony:  Starting a helpful post, then flaming someone so the thread has a good chance to be locked.  I won't continue flaming, because this post has some good info. "Thank you for that, I value discussion over bickering. Though you do appreciate why you have got a less than welcoming reception? You many not have intended your posts to come across in such a manner, but first you insulted us, then lectured us on what you feel our role is and then told us to shut up and been and seen and not heard in reguards to getting problems with our class fixed. If you did that in any other subclass forum what do you think the reaction would be?"But still, if you are a good player, who upgrades all your spells, and some newb berserker comes along and steals aggro, you have to take a look at your role as mt in general."This is the pivitol point where we disagree, you see this issue as an aspect of what Paladins role is, though I dont claim to speak for us all, I see it as a flaw in our design.If you follow the logical extension of the argument that you're using you might as well say to any class "that big bug list you guys have prepared A+ for effort but Im afraid its worthless, those arent bugs, they're features, deal with it"?Personally I see Paladins as tanks, we may approach what is the defining role off fighers differently from warriros, but we should still be able to perform it. If theres an issue that prevents us from doing it then perhaps it needs to be looked into?But anyway, thank you for sharing your views with us.<div></div>

[xxalan]

<DIV>But we've just discussed how pally's can maintain aggro in a group, so there really is no problem is there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is what i am against, a class that a lot of people play for some reason(horse?) saying they are unbalanced, when they are not.</DIV> <DIV>I saw another post that summed it up perfectly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are %100 tank, nothing else</DIV> <DIV>Berserkers, %75 tank, %25 dps</DIV> <DIV>Paladins, %75 tank, %25 heal/ward/buff/dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins want it to look like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians, %100 tank, nothing else</DIV> <DIV>Berserkers %75 tank, %25 dps</DIV> <DIV>Paladin, %100 tank, %25 heal/ward/buff/dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now before you go on a tirade to soe because you can't taunt as well as a guardian, why do you think your class should look like this? Don't say well guardians should get more dps, because %99 don't care about dps, only tanking, because that is THE tanking class, if you want to be able to hold aggro and take the most damage, that is the class for you.  Ask yourself, what is the difference between a guardian and a paladin?  If you had your wish and were given god taunts, the difference would be that they tank exactly the same, have the same mitigation, while paladins have more utility, more dps, but guardians get a glowing icey hand so it balances out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>TroodonIE wrote:<BR></FONT> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>This is the pivitol point where we disagree, you see this issue as an aspect of what Paladins role is, though I dont claim to speak for us all, I see it as a flaw in our design.<BR><BR>If you follow the logical extension of the argument that you're using you might as well say to any class "that big bug list you guys have prepared A+ for effort but Im afraid its worthless, those arent bugs, they're features, deal with it"?<BR><BR></FONT></P> <P>A 'bug' is something wrong with the code of a spell, such as coercers charm spell breaking an encounter, or necro pets being invulnarable.  The level of your taunts effectiveness is not bugged, because they do work, the fact that they do less than a guardian/berserkers taunts is just how the devs made the game to be balanced.  By YOUR logic, wizards not getting to wear plate is a bug as well.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Talbot]

<DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>xxalanxx, Here we go.  Everyone saying Pally's can't tank.  That they aren't meant to be MT.  How they can't hold agro.  Simplt put they are all BS.  They key to remember, It was stated that not all classes are equal and certain classes may have to work harder than others at verious tasks. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>A paladin, has one spell that is overall better than just pure hate creation.  Redemption, this is one spell that should be Adept3 without a doubt.  At adept 3 it "transfers 37% of the hate generated by the target to the paladin."  Why is transferance so good, It lowers the hate generated by the target and raises the paladins hate.  If you don't lower the hate value even a guardian would eventually not be able to maintain agro.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>As I have posted on this subject before, I will recap as people don't like to use the searching function.  </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>If you are in the MT role you have to establish the rules of engagement with your group.  i.e. how a battle goes down.  Most are used to guardians natural hate generation.  A paladin has to do thing differently.  and as such this is where establishing your groups rules of engagement does it all.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Step one:  Explain to your group you have the first HO and that no one should attack til it is complete.<BR>Step two:  Pick out your main agro producer in the group and toss redemption on this person.  Bards/wizzies/warlocks are hella agro producers and should generally be your target of this spell<BR>Step three: Engaging the target.  Once you get your fist ho, follow casting the ward on yourself.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>At this point if you find a tank using their taunts politely ask them to not use them.  A perfect example was a bruiser was group with me while I was mentoring a friend.  He kept using his taunt.  He said he would continue to use them cause he was a tank and he was meant to do this.  I politely tried to explain it to this new player and he got mouthy.  I then told him he would need to find another group.  At which point I kicked him.  He got to watch from the sidelines as the group gain massive xp and several people dinged multiple times.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>As it was stated before it is the groups responsibility for agro management.  This does not mean a paladin has a difficult time with agro control as we really don't.  Once you gain your divine debuff/group taunt and oath strike.  Agro control becomes much easier.  If we go back to step one, use one of your startes skills other than oath strike and end with the divine debuff then hit the mob with oath strike.  Do not use oathstrike on it own.  You will miss more than not.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Many attempts are made at saying paladins want their cake and eat it to and saying that guardians are better.  This is hog wash.  You put two properly equiped pally's together and you can do the exact same thing as a palladin and a guardian.  The key is the player.  Don't be affraid to use your heals.  When you are in the MT role, your focus should be on using your taunts/wards/heals.  These all generate hate.  Guardians have an easier time maintaining agro, this is no news flash.  But this is where we have to work at it.  But we do have the tools you just have to use your brain.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>My gf plays a cleric, in all of our groups her power bare hardly moves unless I do something wrong.  Namely, when i pulled about 20 yellows on us in RE and well, everyone was alive at the end but no power.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Class is not the only detirmining factor on how well you tank or off tank.  The player detirmines how well they do both.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>  </FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Troodon]

<div></div>Hello again, xxalanxx wrote: "<font color="#ccccff">But we've just discussed how pally's can maintain aggro in a group, so there really is no problem is there?</font>" The issue of contention is that we seem to have to bend over backwards to maintain aggro and unless people compensate for our decifencies even thats not even sufficent at times. "<font color="#ccccff">Here is what i am against, a class that a lot of people play for some reason(horse?) saying they are unbalanced, when they are not.</font>" The horse, its value, its placement by SoE as a fluff spell, the value of other "fluff" spells are perhaps an issue for another thread, they're debate in and of themsevles. <div>"<font color="#ccccff">I saw another post that summed it up perfectly.</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Guardians are %100 tank, nothing else</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Berserkers, %75 tank, %25 dps</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Paladins, %75 tank, %25 heal/ward/buff/dps</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Paladins want it to look like this:</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Guardians, %100 tank, nothing else</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Berserkers %75 tank, %25 dps</font></div> <div><font color="#ccccff">Paladin, %100 tank, %25 heal/ward/buff/dps</font>" Well first I cant speak for all Paladins but personally I think (and <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13301#M13301" target="_blank">at least for Brawlers so does SoE</a>) that all Fighters are tanks. That is everyone subclass should be able to fuffil the role of tank but approaching it in different manners. e.g. What I think Fighters should be: Guardians                 100% tanks (100% "meat shield") Berzerkers                100% tanks (75% "meat shield" 25% reactive dps) Monks                       100% tanks (100% Jackie Chan) Brawlers                   100% tanks (75% Jackie Chan 25% Bruce Lee) Paladins                   100% tanks (75% "meat shield" 25% Priest) Shadow Knights       100% tanks (75% "meat shield" 25% Mage) </div> The problem SoE face is how to ballance things so that all those 75% and 25% in design terms actually add up to 100% in real game terms. Reguarding my "tirade", if I knew exactly how to square this circle do you think Id be spout off my ideas here? No, they'd be off in an email along with a CV to SoE for the job as chief of game design :p All I can try to do by debating this with my fellow Paladins and anyone else whom cares to post here, is to try to come up with some coherent thoughts that at least might catch the passing muse of an SoE dev, that it might help shape the future of what we develop into, because change is comming both in terms of the reballancing of dps amoungst all achetypes and adjustments to the relative values of Avoidance and Mitigation and how the subclasses use them. As to why this is worth a "tirade", its because it deals with the principal role of the tank: how to keep the mobs focused on one person, yourself, alowing your more squishy friends to open up with their abilities to take the mobs out. Fundementally and abstractly if we cant maintain aggro on ourselves then all we bring to a group is a subpar priest and a subpar melee dps rolled into one. My moan is that I couldnt even steel aggro over a 'Zerker 3 levels my junior despite trying my hardest. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[Igst]

<DIV>Getting back to the original point of the discussion.. and not getting drawn into a stupid flame war (please stop this unhelpful stupid drivel - we've heard this conversation over and over and its boring)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is definitely some kind of game algorithm which is going seriously wrong with the beserker class.  I group with a beserker halfling every night, Tweedledumm who is an absolutely fantastic player.  I've been grouping with him almost every night since before Christmas so we pretty much know the ins and outs of how to play together - sometimes he tanks, quite often im the mt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even when he is not actively trying to gain the aggro, nine times out of ten in a fight - especially a long one, he will get the aggro from me and I have nothing in my arsenal, taunts, buffs, heals or damage that will solve this.  I know he is not taunting and he often specifically doesnt put certain zerker buffs on e.g. anarchy - which by the way is impossible for another tank to compete with in terms of hate generation.  After many nights with dps classes that do higher damage than him, we do not believe that it is related to his higher dps... we group with much higher dps characters on a nightly bases including rangers and mages but the only one that I get aggro problems with is from him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When he is not grouped with us, there are no aggro issues whatsoever, pretty much no matter what classes I'm grouped with.  This includes characters of higher level that are true dps classes.  He has also been typically 1 level lower than me for a number of months, this is how we know about this 'zerker' trait.  Once he gains the aggro, its not much point fighting it, you just have to revert to support tank, granting armament to him etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The levels of my spells versus his is no issue - most of my spells are at adept i, especially my taunts and group buffs.  I cast the standard hate generation and group hate reduction stuff, and also practise group buffs and heals to pull aggro from mobs.  I have also stats on our dps, and although he does slightly higher dps generally, he is not out dps ing the other characters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would love to know what it is and if he can do anything about it.  It is very annoying, and I know that it is no fault of his whatsoever.  It does mean that although I should tank the tough mobs (if I am a higher level than him) - and do normally have not problem doing this - it does mean that he will normally pull the aggro from me at some stage which could prove disastrous if we were up against a real nasty mob where we dont want to shift the damage between tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can someone from Sony please look into this!</DIV> <DIV>:smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of the day, I can reason away hate being generated by a dps character or from a healer.  But I cannot reason one tank class pulling aggro from another tank class when one is actively taunting (constantly) whilst the other tank is actively not trying to gain hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suspect something along the lines of our hate generation spells not stacking, so if you taunt twice using the same line of taunts, it is not building the hate up and there may be some kind of 'hate ceiling'.   Whilst damage inflicted or zerker natural hate generation keeps stacking, surpassing this 'hate ceiling' and ending up with us not being able to regain the aggro.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Igster on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:14 AM</span>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Igster, You say you use the standard hate generation buffs.  But you have not said whether you use redemption.  And whether you have it at adept 1 or better.  There has yet to be a class that pulls agro off me when I use this... whther that be berserker or wizzie, or bard.  THis is a must use if you are playing mt.  In otherwords, you use your defense buff, Knights stance or shining beacon along with redemption.  THis means that you can not use your proc buff nor your str buff.  Most pallies refuse to give these up and this is the exact reason they can not maintain agro.</DIV>

[xxalan]

<DIV> <DIV>All i am trying to say is that paladins can maintain aggo, they just need to THINK about it.  The class is not broken by any means, and plenty of paladins tank just fine.  I wish they gave the horse to the guardian sometimes, bucause that class does not need any thought to maintaining aggro, just use their normal taunts and they are done. but the shiny armor, the idea of cleansing norrath of evil and that dern horse lured so many newbs into playin a class that requires thought, that everybody instead of trying to improve their skills would rather just complain to soe.  Am i full of crap?  Am I a troll who has no idea what i am talking about? Maybe.  But let's ask some of your fellow paladins, with quotes from this very thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>CloakVai said:<BR>Humm,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Personaly, I've never had a problem holding agro and I'm also 27th level.<BR>So far I've never lost control of a mob using this method, even with a wizard in the group 2 levels higher than me.  I have a few adept 1's and all others are app4's.  Only inflame is adept 1 in the taunt range.  I've never had to use rescue and I've never had to have redemption active (if thats the one that transfers hate from one person to you?)  </FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>SunTsu Said<BR>I don't have aggro issues and I can't use all of my abilities or I will take aggro from the MT when I assist</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>IMO we can hold aggro better than any other tank.  We have far more abilities to generate aggro. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Ion said:<BR>Secondly  I can't believe people still look at Knights as a utility class.  One has to wonder if people actually read these boards during developement or if they just assumed THIS game would be like EQ1.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Knight's are TRUE tanks in EQ2, <FONT size=3>live it, accept it, love it..<FONT color=#ffffff>(this one brought a tear to my eye)</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Talbot said:<BR>Many attempts are made at saying paladins want their cake and eat it to and saying that guardians are better.  This is hog wash.  You put two properly equiped pally's together and you can do the exact same thing as a palladin and a guardian.  The key is the player.  Don't be affraid to use your heals.  When you are in the MT role, your focus should be on using your taunts/wards/heals.  These all generate hate.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>Not that i agree with that last one, but hey what do i know i am a troll.  Point is if you guys spent half the time reading the forms to improve yourself like the OP that you do complaining that your class is broken and can't do its job, maybe you would be able to perform better.  </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>As for berserkers being bugged and drawing aggro, well who knows.  Truth is i have drawn aggro off paladins just from attacking and using no taunts, so maybe it is true. The problem is, that there isn't a single ability i haven't seen a paladin ask soe for, pets, dual wield, better weapon selection, better taunts, so if you do think there is a bug, i would focus your attention on that rather than lose your credibility asking for unbalancing skills for your class.</FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>

[Igst]

<DIV>I do occasionally have to revert to using redemption - since hes about the same level as me I don't really need to and just switch to support tank and grant armament.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue is this though - he is a tank - not a dps - if I had to cast it on our illusionists, dps's or medics I would understand and be perfectly happy to do this.  Redemption is my standard (adept I) support tank setup.  Or if the dps or healer are pulling aggro I will revert to using this.  Almost every spell I have at adept I.  I burn through money like duff beer sitting in Homer's fridge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue is that he is not a dps (well not a major dps) and he is a tank.  He should be the last person that I need to cast redemption on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Not only is it an issue since he shouldnt be generating so much aggro.</LI> <LI>But redemption is meant to save characters from being hit - particularly those not able to take a beating.  As a tank he can take a beating and I can change a few maintained spells and buff him to support him.</LI></UL> <P>Dont get me wrong about this I have and will use redemption if there is a major major problem with the character pulling the aggro, but I dont see why we should use it against another tank actively trying not to gain aggro.</P> <P>Oh for the record I'm level 45 - just so you know the range of spells at my disposal.</P> <P>One more point - I firmly believe that this is broken.  They are probably going to be upping the dps of the scout class soon as I understand it.  This means that if the aggro comes down to who is out damaging other characters then if you think about it the problem will get worse.  We will then have to cast redemption on wizards, scouts and then the other tanks in the group.  This will mean that we are the fat kid when it comes to tanking.  Always last in the hate list.</P> <P>I do wish that troll would stop spamming the paladin threads - obviously hes whining about the paladins whining!  Is that recursion?  (I shouldnt feed him I know)</P><p>Message Edited by Igster on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[Daran]

Hello boys, Friendly neighborhod berserker here to throw the other side of the equation into this conversation (no I'm not trolling I came here looking for paladin tactics) couple of things about berserkers that you should know (and that the zerker you grouped with should have known but likely didnt) 1. when in 'Berserk' mode we have a 27-35% haste (brains tired and I cant recall the exact number sorry) I'm not entirely sure if this haste buff carries agro with it or not. 2. Many of our special attacks aren't just damage but also a debuff, the debuff portion causes it to have more agro than it normally would, and tanks very rarely think in terms of agro avoidance so we tend to land those debuffs right off the bat. 3. at level 26 there are precious few skills that can put us into 'berserk' without also being a taunt, Enrage for example 4. Raging Strike, a level 24 ability doesn't describe itself as a taunt but if you look at the description it does increase threat by almost 250pts, mostly berserkers use this to proc a berserk state. 5. We love out DoTs....if you know anything about DoT's I really need to say nothing more. I'm not sure if you were doing anything wrong (i know paladins have alot of problems when I start beating on things even when they outlevel me by quite a bit due to the actions above) Perhaps it would have been better to let him take the MT position and run with it. Sometimes you have to go with the flow, even if it doesnt make sense. P.S. this was not in any way a flame post, I doubt many paladins know the intricacies of the berserker just as I know precious little about the intricacies and tactics of the paladin. Daryn Bourne <div></div>

[Valthonis - The Exile]

I just wanted to put a few things in that may help, I am a lvl 37 pally on BB server and group regularly with a Warlock and Templar and never realy seem to have much problem holding aggro, but I have come across a few things that may be of help to some others. 1)I've noticed that occasionaly when fighting mobs when the first one goes down the aggro seems to "break" and the remaining mobs randomly attack anyone in the group (even the warlocks pet who does absolutely nothing but set in the corner an watch) 2)I never had to worry with a Zerker takeing aggro from me when I was MT, most of the time a good Ward-Taunt-Magic based AoE, is a good aggro producer. 3)Magic attacks generate lots of aggro (as any wiz/warlock should know) its always good to use the magic based skills to gain a little ground on the aggro field 4)just cuz one of the taunts is an AoE taunt doesnt mean you cant use it on a single mob... I often use my group taunt as a debuff when soloing due to the divine resist debuff on it. hope that those help out with some of the problems that any of you are having and most importantly of all... have fun <div></div>

[Troodon]

Thank you indeed DaranHB, it defintely it appreciated and certainly isnt taken as a flame, Im still relatively new to the game and any insight is always appreciated. My fundemental moan is that we seem to have to play the role of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Queen" target=_blank>Red Queen</a>: <i> "Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else -- if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing." "A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!".</i> That is we have to bend over backwards to achieve the same sort of level of hate management that Warriors <b>appear</b> to be able to achieve with relative ease? When a Crusader has used all their tricks just to be able to keep up with the relative level of a  Warior's standard of hate management, what happens when the proverbial hits the fan, in a situation where a Warior would be able to call upon their tricks to be able to save the day? If you were a Mage, Priest or Scout, whom would you be most happy having the role of playing tank/mt? Whom would you feel could cope with a little extra hate you might have mistakenly drawn? If the answer isnt "any Fighter player whom has some idea what they're doing" then we have problem. <div></div>

[Igst]

<DIV>Thanks for those zerker posts guys.  Unfortunately, I've been playing with the aforementioned most excellent zerker since stormhold - about 20 levels ago or more.  I pretty much know about the zerker spell effects, e.g. anarchy and their hasting effect.  I have no problem with the idea behind this whatsoever.  My zerker buddy purposefully nerfs himself when fighting with me to reduce the haste effects.  Even with this high level of haste, he should not be out dps'ing our other group members, e.g. scout and mages.  i would have thought that a zerker's dps should not be able to touch the dps of mages and scouts.</DIV> <DIV>If I spent the whole fight taunting, buffing, healing just to generate hate, it seems to be less powerful than just throwing your shield off and smacking mobs about a bit.  The fighter classes just seem to be doing too much damage - or the hate generation is not strong enough versus damage hate.</DIV> <DIV>If I am tank and I decide to start doing damage rather than taunting and buffing, then I'd perhaps expect that I might lose the aggro occasionally because I'm trying to do a bit of dps.  The reverse seems to be true.</DIV> <DIV>What's quite funny is that sometimes when I'm not tanking, I'll inadvertently temporarily pull the aggro from him.  He can normally get it back almost instantly and both of us stop fighting when we mistakenly pull the aggro.  Its like a game of tank tennis.  This only happens infrequently, but it is noticeable.  Why are we as tanks pulling this amount of hate?  Why have a taunt when you are just as well simply trying to out dps all the other classes in the game?  By the way, we rarely lose the hate to one of the dps classes, or any of the healers.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not calling for nerf bats for any of the classes involved.  I just know that there is a big contention between multiple tanks in a group.  I will be casting redemption on the other tank class every time I play with him, and to hell with the healers and damage dealers.  It appears that the damage dealer to look out for is the other tank.  At least with redemption, he will be generating a percentage of the hate he generates for me.</DIV> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Daran]

Don't take this the wrong way, but if your zerker buddy, who you feel is a good player, can take and hold agro while nerfing himself....why not just let him take it? Its not like he's a wizard fighting in his bathrobe. This is an honest question by the way, does a Paladin gain anything by being the one taking the hits? <div></div>

[Troodon]

Thats a fair enough question and in Igster's situation where he's regularly grouped with said Bezerker and they are comfortable with one another's playstyles, as he outlined sharing the aggro, letting whomever has it play the role of tank is fine. However you have to consider the ramifications in the larger picture. Say you're a group leader, you have one group slot left for a tank, there is one of each of the subclasses available. Which would you pick? If subclass actually factors into this choice (beyond posibly "which particular subclasses skillset compliments this /partcular/ group set up"), that its not "someone you've grouped with before and trust" or "the person with better equipment and combat arts", then theres a problem. I dont think anyone is asking to be better than anyone else, only to be on an even footing. <div></div>

[Myanta]

<P>Nice thread, fun read. Personally I have times when I can't keep agro and times when agro is easy to keep. Their are many ways for a paladin to set up hate generation and I feel it's my job to figure out which way works best for that group.</P> <P>I have no problem with any other fighter class tanking at any time or having superior agro generation. If another person in the group, even a wizard, can tank better then me (usually because of level and resists on gear) then they tank. The point is that the one that can take the damage better is the one that should, it means the healers will have an easier time healing and that is the key to survival.</P> <P>Normally I tank in every group, but their are times when someone is equal to me in ability, I then fall back to emergency medic and off-tank. If a fighter in the group, monk, guardian, zerker, whatever, has better mitigation and avoidance then me I am happy to let them tank. Usually I am the best one to do the job.</P> <P>I don't ever give up my tanking job unless someone better comes into the group. I work hard and try to find the best way to keep agro with the tools I have and the people in the group. It's a blast to play a paladin, or solo even (such novelty!). LOL</P> <P>By the way, I am a level 41 Paladin on Najena.</P>

[Daran]

I've been thinking on this subject since I got involved in the post on it and except for my theory on the berserk haste buff having some sort of agro generation associated with it I cant really think of any good reason why a Berserker should be getting agro in this kind of situation. If I have the opportunity to work with some similar level paladins I'll see if I can recreate the situation described here. Until then, Im afraid I'm at a loss. The few times...or perhaps I should say Time....that Ive been in a similar situation I just figured the paladin was still working off of apprentice 1 skills. I'll try and keep my eyes open and question the groupmates I find a bit more. Sorry I don't have a more definitive answer to give you all. <div></div>

[tat2dfuhr3]

<P>My personal opinion on the subject would be we do make great MT's, but we make even better OT's.  I understand the original question was maintaining agro, even with Warrior subclasses in the group.  I think the real issue here is, why would you want to keep agro from a subclass whose sole role in the game is keeping aggro and absorbing damage?  Please bear in mind I'm not trying to flame you, I'm only trying to understand your point of view on this subject.  There is a reason why we have arts that allow us to give AC and avoidance to other players, and I can only assume it's meant to better fit the role of a support tank.  </P> <P>For instance take a berzerker using all his arts.  He's generating a ton of aggro, and for good reason.  He's basically turned himself into Norrath's version of a veggiematic, and the mob is obvioulsy going to be quite irked because of that.  That's a good thing for the Paladin though, throw some extra ac and avoidance his way and get behind him.  We don't want any gore on our shiny armor.  =P  </P> <P>Seriously though, I know we as Paladins want to be in the forefront leading our groups to victory, but I truly feel that if a Warrior subclass is in the group our role is better filled by stepping to the side and making sure they have as much protection as possible.       </P>

[SunT]

<P>I couple things I have noticed as I have leveled the last few levels.</P> <P>I feel we are sprinters when it comes to aggro.  This is great in a group but I have some doubts as to how it will work in a raid.  By Sprinters I mean we seem to use a ton of power to hold aggro and must use DPS to augment it in order to be effective.</P> <P>I don't have isssues at all in standard group situations, but lately I have been fighting alot of named and these tend to be longer fights.  When confronted with a potentially long fight I conserve some power for emergency heals and am cautious about dumping too much into DPS as I will certainly be oop at some point even with constant use or the manastone.</P> <P>What I have been seeing over the past week is the taunts alone are simply not enough to hold aggro without solid DPS.  This may be the issue that some of the posters are having.  If they put too much weight on the taunt they will lose the aggro.  But when I have a long fight, even if my best dps is the Redemption person, I lose aggro toward the end.  This is just using both taunts and the shield bash line that grants an equivilent taunt.  I throw a few heals and wards on myself when required and the rest of the time I use minimal dps and taunt.  I should also point out that these stiuations have been a one healer group.  I have been adding the rest of the heals which is not cost effective powerwise but the issue remains, taunts do not hold aggro without substantial DPS.</P> <P>What are you guys doing in long fights to hold aggro?  Are you going OOP?  Do you find it more difficult to hold aggro and not go OOP in long fights?  </P> <P>I have great equipment, Ebon, orclord, grasslined or feysteel, not all of it is the best but most is very good, and all spells are adept 1 or better.  So it is either tactics or a class issue.  Trying to figure out which.</P> <P> </P>

[Talbot]

<DIV>I think it is a little of everything.  My biggest complaint is the amount of power our AE DD's do.  But honestly I think it is moreso tactics.  So many have said our wards are not useful for the power consumption that they use.  I have to disagree.  When you tie all our skills together in chains you can maintain agro without going OOP.  The key is the sequence.  Like has been mentioned before. Using our group taunt/divine debuff then following with Oath Strike is fabulous at maintaining agro, Another spell is our DD DoT.  DoTs create tremendous hate.  Oath strike has a DoT effect with it.  You put the 2 dot's together than ends up being a lot of agro.  Lets not for get our group buffs.  These also TRANSFER hate.  I.e. lowering group members hate levels down and bringing our hate up.  Knowing when to use your skills an taunts is tactics.  Different folks have different tactics dependant on the style in which they play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My style, hold agro, that is what I am all about.  I am not worried about dps that is why I get dps classes in the group.  As some have made clear they don't ever plan on using redemption as it takes up 2 conc.  That is fine to do if you are willing to live with having issues with agro control.  The tools are given to us so use them.  The small about of dps you get from our proc buffs and our str buff is minimal in a group setting.  So giving up that small amount of dps is fine.  Remember now with imbued weaps guess what we can still have our proc it is just weap based.  Since the introduction of many of the imbued items many people don't use them 100%.  I have 2 imbued bloodstone rings (not gunna burn rubies yet for jewelry).  One is STR buff the other is STA buff.  Then I also have hex dolls dor slowing the dps of mobs.  Then as soon as my guildie is able to I will have an imbued ebon long sword and hammer.  All of these will asset you in agro management as well as DPS.  Oh an of course who can forget imbued armor which procs a Hot and another which procs a dd.  These nifty items are there to use.  Now remember, imbuing can be done to commons as well as rares.  So if money is an issue, harvest up one of those raws and when you go to buy your next BP or legs have the fulginate imbued as well.  THe additional cost is well worth what they do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On my server, it has been my experience most paladins don't have the first clue on how to play one effectively.  Heck many of them don't even use redemption saying Oh it is such a low level skill I didn't think I would need it in later levels.  Many of them are under equipped and complaining that they can't do this or that.  When I take a look at their gear and most of it is blue or green.  If your armor is blue or green and it is not rare armor, it is time to upgrade.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But all of these are factors.  Trying to say it is one single thing is difficult.  More often than not, they aren't using ALL their tools effectively.  </DIV>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Talbot wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think it is a little of everything.  My biggest complaint is the amount of power our AE DD's do.  But honestly I think it is moreso tactics.  So many have said our wards are not useful for the power consumption that they use.  I have to disagree.  When you tie all our skills together in chains you can maintain agro without going OOP.  The key is the sequence.  Like has been mentioned before. Using our group taunt/divine debuff then following with Oath Strike is fabulous at maintaining agro, Another spell is our DD DoT.  DoTs create tremendous hate.  Oath strike has a DoT effect with it.  You put the 2 dot's together than ends up being a lot of agro.  Lets not for get our group buffs.  These also TRANSFER hate.  I.e. lowering group members hate levels down and bringing our hate up.  Knowing when to use your skills an taunts is tactics.  Different folks have different tactics dependant on the style in which they play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My style, hold agro, that is what I am all about.  I am not worried about dps that is why I get dps classes in the group.  As some have made clear they don't ever plan on using redemption as it takes up 2 conc.  That is fine to do if you are willing to live with having issues with agro control.  The tools are given to us so use them.  The small about of dps you get from our proc buffs and our str buff is minimal in a group setting.  So giving up that small amount of dps is fine.  Remember now with imbued weaps guess what we can still have our proc it is just weap based.  Since the introduction of many of the imbued items many people don't use them 100%.  I have 2 imbued bloodstone rings (not gunna burn rubies yet for jewelry).  One is STR buff the other is STA buff.  Then I also have hex dolls dor slowing the dps of mobs.  Then as soon as my guildie is able to I will have an imbued ebon long sword and hammer.  All of these will asset you in agro management as well as DPS.  Oh an of course who can forget imbued armor which procs a Hot and another which procs a dd.  These nifty items are there to use.  Now remember, imbuing can be done to commons as well as rares.  So if money is an issue, harvest up one of those raws and when you go to buy your next BP or legs have the fulginate imbued as well.  THe additional cost is well worth what they do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On my server, it has been my experience most paladins don't have the first clue on how to play one effectively.  Heck many of them don't even use redemption saying Oh it is such a low level skill I didn't think I would need it in later levels.  Many of them are under equipped and complaining that they can't do this or that.  When I take a look at their gear and most of it is blue or green.  If your armor is blue or green and it is not rare armor, it is time to upgrade.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But all of these are factors.  Trying to say it is one single thing is difficult.  More often than not, they aren't using ALL their tools effectively.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Talbot are you saying you can do all this and NOT go OOP?  You describe how I group under normal circumstances, quick fights.  I am talking about tough named mobs that take five min or so to defeat.</P> <P>If I ward and chain combat arts I will go OOP in no time.  2 min max.  What then?  If I don't do the dps by using my arts, I lose aggro because the taunt does not hold them by itself.  We suck at DPS without the arts.  And my point is we need that DPS in order to maintain the aggro.</P> <P>Maybe you are posting as a response to the general thread, if so then ignore this.  If you are responding to me then I am confused?  You are not addressing the question.</P> <P>The Dot is cheap and I chain it, but Oath Strike must be cast with a stun, so you are burning major power to do an Oath strike cycle.  I have to use them sparingly in order to keep some sot of power bar.  You cannot chain this and other abilities for a long fight.  At least I can't and I have great stuff and I use the Manastone at every opportunity.</P> <P>My point is we are sprinters and do not hold aggro with any kind of power efficiency.  I am not conviced that we can be effective in the long fight at holding aggro because we need the rest of our abilities and we use power too quickly.</P> <DIV>I did not think this way a week ago.  I thought we were every equal and actually surpassed other tanks.  In short fights this still stands true, but in long fights I am beginning to wonder.</DIV>

[Gweelean]

<P>About redemption, this lv 21 spell doesnt have any upgrade, so its a useless spell to upgrade? so replace it by something else !! OR its a useful spell so please upgrade it!! but dont leave it like this....</P> <P>Im a pal 46, and I group a lot with a berserk 42, Of course a 46 pal mitigate a LOT more than a lv 42 zerk... so its the reason Im the main tank.... (if we were at the same lv I will of course use all the pal buff to boost his mitigation/parry etc.....)</P> <P>even with 4lv of difference I cannot keep the aggro, he is not event taunting.... On a long fight like the emp Fyst I use every possible time clarion call, bash and the group taunt, + 1 spell who hurt for 400ish + dot and condamnation who hurt for 550ish in adept1 and redemption on the Zerk but he still take the aggro. Time the templars switch to the zerk, he was down..... and I had the aggro for the rest of the fight )</P> <P>I notice this on every long fight, on a group of mobs I have just some trouble when one monster died, the others mobs attack other people, even if they were taunted twice with the grp taunt and the grp bash... It ONLY append when a monster of this group died, so I believe its either a bug or a dev's trick.....</P> <P>Pal are fine the way they are, and no other class take aggro like zerk do I just believe there is a problem with zerk and not pals....</P> <P>PS: sorry for the poor english</P> <P> </P>

[Troodon]

<div></div>Personally Ive got Redemption at Adept III, given its never upgraded and its inherent value, once you've covered the main T3 hallmaks (Oath Strike, Faithful Zeal and our taunts) I'd really recommend considering the upgrade should you have a jasper to spare. You might want to take a look at the following thread for more other: <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=8424">Redemption line - does it actually do anything?</a>Rescue is another potential Adept III candidate should you hit a jasper seem. Before you dismiss it out of hand, it is an instant taunt, on a seperate (though long) timer and automatically bumps you up once place in the hate list. My only gripe with Rescue is its awful range (and its rather poor hate value), you really need to be close to use it. It comes into its own when something spawns in the middle of the group and a group member keeps their head and doesnt hit back at it when it attacks them.<div></div>

[Sundorn]

I'm confused that you go OOP in less then 2 minutes in a group.  Are you chaining all you high power attacks together? Like HO starter...Oath Strike...Inflame.  Continously?  I haven't done many long hard mobs yet, most of my fights are over in less then 5min. But, i don't run OOP in one fight and still keep aggro(often still more then 50% power left from one fight).  Just asking, as it were.   As for aggro management, i've never really had a hard time unless the person taking aggro was 3-4 lvls higher then me(dang bard types).    I usually pull with one of our long range spells DV or one of the others.   Heading back to the group-getting mob posititioned i start the HO.  Hit the mob with Shield Bash( the one with the most hate involved) next I Oath Strike and then i finish depending on what i'm fighting (Basic Taunt(low mana!), Inflame( if i'm in a group and its a single mob) or Blinding/Shout (if i've pulled a group of mobs).   This combo should put you well on your way to keeping aggro.   Don't be afraid to ask the scouts/mages to hold off their big damage attacks until the mob hits 80% or less.   Make sure the group at least lets you start aggro before they go hog wild on the mob.    Also you shouldn't have to continously chain Ho's. Start them let someone else keep it going, finish it if  you need to/can.  Another thing (and i've done this for and had done for me) Ask any OT to set up HO's for you. Let them start, do ability--you finish with one of your taunts.   I've never actually used Redemption. Haven't needed it.  I usually just have up Vigor of trust, knights stance, prayer of devotion, Glorious weapon,penitents blessing?(not sure its late, the buff for more hps), call to arms and divine inspiration. I think i will give Redemption a shot though, can't hurt to try. Kind of got into an aggro man guide somehow sorry about that. Sundorn of Innothule 30th Paladin <div></div>

[SunT]

<DIV> <P>Once again let me restate. </P> <P>I have no issue with a standard group situation.  Short fights are not an issue.  No lost aggro, no OOP.  And I haze the Zerkers in Ventrillo to try to get them to take my aggro...but then they are wearing my Redemption <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>Long fights are an issue recently post level 40.  Tough named mobs with tons of HP that take many minutes to take down.</P> <P>Not sure about actual time in the fighting, suffice to say a typical yellow ^^ takes 'X' time to take down then a typical named yellow takes '3X' or '5X'.  These are the times when I conserve power to make it through the fight.  If I stop spamming DPS skills and doing decent damage, I lose aggro.</P> <P>A spam all taunt methods.  I use redemption Adept 1 on the highest dps.  I spot Ward and Heal when I am low HP.  But it is insufficient to maintain aggro even against other tanks.</P> <P>For the first 40 levels this was not a problem but in the past two I have been losing aggro using this method.  Taunts without DPS do not seem to be sufficient.</P> <P>My theory is, either we are truely the sprinters of the tanks and accel only in regular tanking sceanrios and therefore NOT a good choice to tank a Named or Raid mob, OR Taunts are seriously flawed and need improvement.</P> <P>This is NOT EQ1, however, in EQ1 you could simply taunt constantly and maintain aggro.  Tanks were lousy DPS but taunts and stuns were very effective in aggro management.  EQ2 requires, at least for the Pally, taunt + DPS to do the same job.</P> <P>Can anyone comment on THIS issue directly.</P></DIV>

[Boli32]

<div></div>I experiance the same, running in "power conservation mode" you are very liable to loose agro if you are not careful... and running "all out" you are likely to burn through your power too fast.  One nice comprimise I find is running HO after HO after HO. Start it (0 power) other tank / priest  / mage continues it... and taunt. In pure fighter HOs, or if you are the last with the mage/fighter or  priest/fighter you not only get the taunt but the dps hate as well. Saves your mana, keep your agro. <div></div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>

[Titali]

if i know its not my fault, i let the [Removed for Content] die.

[SunT]

<P>I lost aggro to another Pally the other day and just figured out why.</P> <P>He is of the same level and similar in stats, little lower so I tanked.</P> <P>He has the level 40 training that replaces the Call to Arms line. </P> <P>The 10% hate transfer from the party pushed him over my Redemption on the Assasin and he took the aggro several times.  I had him click it off and used myregular 5% and had no issues.</P> <P>The reason I bring this up is I was really impressed at how easy it was for him to take aggro.  I may switch from the single target buff if given another respec opportunity. </P> <P>The level 30 Training Palin's AGI buff doesnt stack with the level 40 training Buff anyway.</P> <P>Does anyone have an adept3 call to arms?  Curious as to how much hate is transfered.</P>

[Iustus]

<DIV>Call to Arms stays at 5% at adept3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See this thread:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7852" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=7852</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I</DIV>