Sad, Interesting, and Cool

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>Ignore this post if you want, i don't have the data with me to back this up because it was parsed by something other than myself, I was only told of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But early this morning in Permafrost, my guildmate parsed out everyone's damage output. In group was a 43 Monk, 50 Troubador, 43 Wizard, Me (44 Paladin), and more but they are not relivant for this post. This is a rough estimate of the kind of dps output we were reading from the parser:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Per mob on average with me using an ebon scimitar and a shield, the monk using 2 dual wield items, and the bard also using 2 dual wield items as a simple example...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk Damage: 6400 per mob</DIV> <DIV>Paladin Damage: 4000 per mob</DIV> <DIV>Troubador Damage: 3500 per mob</DIV> <DIV>Wizard Damage: 2000 per mob</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously the mobs in perma had more hps than that, but this is a scaled version for ease of viewing but accurate when comparing the classes in each fight. I do think that maybe the parser might have not been reading the Troubador's damage correctly, but I do know it is reading my damage, the monks, and the wizards correctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The cool part is my damage output in comparison to the monk when I am using only a 1H weapon... We are not as weak dps as people think folks =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The interesting part to me is that I was able to consistently outdamage the troubador who was 6 levels higher than me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The sad part is the wizards damage... come on Sony, the Wizard class is pathetic atm, please help them, I am begging you. Wizards have excellent promise in their utility spells but the drawbacks of using their utility spells are horrendous and drop them to 0 dps. I don't want to see my wizard friends reroll to something else, one is already leveling an enchanter and the other is about to delete. Do something soon...</DIV>

[Wurm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deis of Destiny wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ignore this post if you want, i don't have the data with me to back this up because it was parsed by something other than myself, I was only told of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But early this morning in Permafrost, my guildmate parsed out everyone's damage output. In group was a 43 Monk, 50 Troubador, 43 Wizard, Me (44 Paladin), and more but they are not relivant for this post. This is a rough estimate of the kind of dps output we were reading from the parser:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Per mob on average with me using an ebon scimitar and a shield, the monk using 2 dual wield items, and the bard also using 2 dual wield items as a simple example...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk Damage: 6400 per mob</DIV> <DIV>Paladin Damage: 4000 per mob</DIV> <DIV>Troubador Damage: 3500 per mob</DIV> <DIV>Wizard Damage: 2000 per mob</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously the mobs in perma had more hps than that, but this is a scaled version for ease of viewing but accurate when comparing the classes in each fight. I do think that maybe the parser might have not been reading the Troubador's damage correctly, but I do know it is reading my damage, the monks, and the wizards correctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The cool part is my damage output in comparison to the monk when I am using only a 1H weapon... We are not as weak dps as people think folks =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The interesting part to me is that I was able to consistently outdamage the troubador who was 6 levels higher than me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The sad part is the wizards damage... come on Sony, the Wizard class is pathetic atm, please help them, I am begging you. Wizards have excellent promise in their utility spells but the drawbacks of using their utility spells are horrendous and drop them to 0 dps. I don't want to see my wizard friends reroll to something else, one is already leveling an enchanter and the other is about to delete. Do something soon...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>HEAR HEAR! Good post and nice to see a Paladin sticking up for the Wizzys! lol I put my Wizard out to pasture until something is done and rolled a Crusader just to mess around with. And to be honest its a very fun class.<BR>

[Dyvan]

This has nothing to do with wizards not being able to produce DPS. This is a case of a wizard not nuking enough and/or only chain casting one nuke on a long timer. A lot of wizards are gun shy.

[Darki]

Did everyone know they were being parsed?Things can look skewed when someone is in normal fight mode and someone else is in total dps mode...

[Belgor]

<DIV>That wizard must have either used all app1-skills, or he was not using his skills well at all.  (or the parsing was wrong)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The rest seems correct though, that is not an unusual spread of damage when I am comparing in my groups. Though the wizards in my groups usualy do at least a bit more dps than me. I can agree however that they might need a little bit of help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What makes this parsing a bit worse though, is that you had a troubadur, that probably had a haste-buff up?  That extra dps for the monk and the paladin is actualy dps that comes from the troubadur. And this is not shown in the parsing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The wizard gets no help from having a troubadur in the group though (correct me if I am wrong and the troubadur debuffed the resistances of the mobs). Except more mana-regen and stuff like that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Articulas]

<DIV>From another wizard. thank you Deis <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we need all the moral support we can get while we wait for SOE to fix us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> if they ever get around to it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>Yes everyone knew they were being parsed so they did their best.</DIV>

[Ma]

<DIV>One of my guildies parsed a group we had once and allthough i cant remember all the group members it was a well rounded group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The number1 dps was the assasin with me on second place, so i agree, the Paladin does much more damage than people may think.</DIV>

[Generic123]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dyvanos wrote:<BR>This has nothing to do with wizards not being able to produce DPS. This is a case of a wizard not nuking enough and/or only chain casting one nuke on a long timer. A lot of wizards are gun shy.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Century>Sadly this just isn’t the case.<SPAN>  </SPAN>At these levels almost every wizard who tracks their damage is finding themselves at or near the bottom in every group they join.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This is even true for the ones with adept 3 on all their key spells.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#ffffff> <P><FONT face=Century color=#ffffff size=2>The thing you need to realize is that most of a wizards damage is still coming from a level 23 spell that has not increased in damage in 10 levels.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This is not because they are afraid to use other attacks it’s because their other attacks don’t do a lot of damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Century color=#ffffff size=2>If they are lucky enough to find an adept for it, their level 37 replacement for that spell may do a little more damage but not much.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Basically though a level 43 wizard does little or no more damage then they did at level 33, and at level 33 they still had to push to keep up with the other damage dealers.</FONT></P> <P> </P></FONT>

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dyvanos wrote:<BR>This has nothing to do with wizards not being able to produce DPS. This is a case of a wizard not nuking enough and/or only chain casting one nuke on a long timer. A lot of wizards are gun shy.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Huh? Wizards give up good amour, HP, melle, heals, etc to NUKE. </P> <P>You really think they are "gun shy"?</P> <P>I respectfully disagree sir.</P> <P> </P>

[T'lk]

<DIV>On behalf of wizards, thank you for your comments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While some may be gun shy, I can attest the majority I know are not, just the opposite we are asked to slow down the nuking due to winning alot of agro. If anything wizards need to learn to let agro build on tanks, not how to nuke more. But there is a significant difference in the DPS development of the class pre and post 37 from what I have seen of higher level wizards (and I am beginning to see it myself), and there are many posts circulating now indicating it may be due to the spells not being upgraded after the first tier during beta when the first tier was balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also recently made a crusader, they are very fun to play and hopefully in a weeks time I will be a pally.</DIV>

[RSZ]

<DIV>I have both a Paladin and a Wizard.  There's no comparison, paladin wins.  But it is not a fair comparison. IMO, Paladin is the best class in game bar none while wizard is possibly the worst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is still fun to play a Wizard but don't ponder damage too much and just have fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[luwkw]

This is funny, I almost posted the same thing. We tested it with nearly the same group (Paladin (me) tanking, Monk, Wizard, Troubador). Everytime, with everyone in the group knowledgeable, it came out Monk, Paladin, Troubador, Wizard. On a few occasions I was the top dps as well. I'm "pretty sure" that the parser doesn't take into account some parts of the Wizards dps. He could have been a lot higher than showing because it was evident it was too low multiple times. Now the scout, they really are disappointing in their dps. Sure they have some high damage attacks but overall they are unimpressive. Paladins have much better dps than people think.

[ElRaymon]

<DIV>Well my normal group is a 40 monk 41 swashy 42 zerker and 42 pala (me) 39mystic and 41 warden, I normally play MT at least till the mob is down to 20% hp after that its kinnda pointless me figting tirelessly to hold agro of zerker, and our parser stats vary considerabley depending on mob's, the Zerker n Swashy normally top the dps with well over 100 swashy normally tops but zerker isnt far behind our monk is a little un nukish but when he lets rip he easily dps's with the zerker and swashy, now me with sword and board find my dps to vary greatly, sometimes ill be like 10 points behind or even on par with them, but for a one handed damage taking agro keeping piece of canned meat dishing out around 80dps imo is pretty uber, if i had run the parser tonite could have posted some of the stats but what i also found is that our damage is mainly spell based so using a one hander or two hander doesnt really make too much difference in full nukage mode, the thing that surprised me is the DPS of the zerker its insanely good but sometimes annoying as i have to sacrifice a lot of nuking power to hold agro off him as hes using a two hander.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in short paladins are the utility vehicle we dont hold agro as easily as a gaurdian or zerker, we cant buff or heal like a templar, we dont dps like a scout or monk, but we can do a little bit of everything and when played well the paladin is a good addition to any group as main or assist tank or even as back up healer on lower mobs.</DIV>

[Belgor]

<DIV>I did a little parsing testing with a wizard friend of mine today, to double check this issue, and to get exp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a level 41 paladin, I have master1 in 2 of my damage skills (Oath Strike and Indomitable Wrath), adept1 or app4 in the rest. (Refusal of Grace etc.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He is a level 40 wizard. He has adept3 in 2 of his spells (Ball of Flames and that level 39 nuke thingy), and adept1 or app4 in the rest. (dots etc.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We duoed level 37-38 group-mobs, both singles and several at a time, in Rivervale, and both of us nuked pretty well (though I admit I had to taunt once in a while which lowers damage). I used Ghoulbane and a shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>His dps was between 90-110 on single targets and 100-140 on group targets.</DIV> <DIV>My dps was between 65-85 dps regardless of the target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now this is with no help from any other class-buffs or anything, this is only us two in the group duoing. My conclusion is that wizards do more damage than we do, and I dont get how you can find a wizard doing less damage in a case like this. I have seen cases in groups where wizards have done less damage or equal damage to me, but those cant have nuked that much or I have been boosted from bard-haste or whatever that has increased my damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When grouping with this wizard friend of mine, he has always outdamaged me, though he has also always been outdamaged by, say a monk, so there are issues with the class. (as moorgard seems to hint in his post aslo).</DIV>

[jbar]

<DIV>lol the best class in this game is a troub, the utility that class brings to the table is awesome, every grp i'm in has one...there just plain awesome</DIV>

[Fraglander.be]

<DIV>Thank you Deis of Destiny, I hope more and more people will start noticing and SOE will do something about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In reply to Dyvanos... Gun shy? I tend to disagree. I don't walk in spells blazing, but I don't hold back either</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, when in a group that can easily handle the encounter, I will only use my Breath of the Tyrant, why? because otherwise we burn through our mana so quickly that we need to medidate after each round. If we don't and we get an add, I won't be able to hold both of them off because of powershortage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You call it gun shy, I call it rational thinking and balancing powerusage.</DIV>

[Sheerz]

<DIV>Well, to be fair to all the troubadours and dirges out there, their damages is WAY off when parsing as NON of the damage done by their songs show up either in numbers on the screen or in your parsers. So, you are only getting their pure weapon damage there.</DIV> <DIV>Just some small info i snapped up <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>There has finally been an official announcement by a developer in the wizard forums. =)</DIV>

[Dyvan]

In response to all the people not saying that wizards/warlocks are gun shy. I group with wizards/warlocks regularly and I even play one. The good wizards nuke from time 0. The instant I finish my pulling HO they are already nuking/dotting. However, I have grouped with a lot of wizards that wait to nuke when the mob is at 70%. I'm sorry, but if you are only nuking for 3/4 of a mobs health, you are going to get skewed results on your DPS parser since it begins when the first person starts doing damage and not when the specific class in question begins doing damage.Also in regards to mana consumption, please, at this level of play you better have a bard/enchanter in your group. With a second form of mana regeneration and hp/power shifting the mages I group with have 0 problem nuking to 20% of their mana and being full by the time I pull 10 seconds later.I stand by my gunshy comment. A lot of mages are. It's simply because of their sacrifice of HP/AC as someone stated above. Just because 3 of you aren't, doesn't mean the 80,000 other mages aren't.

[Dyvan]

<blockquote><hr>Fraglander.be wrote:<DIV>Thank you Deis of Destiny, I hope more and more people will start noticing and SOE will do something about it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In reply to Dyvanos... Gun shy? I tend to disagree. I don't walk in spells blazing, but I don't hold back either</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>However, when in a group that can easily handle the encounter, I will only use my Breath of the Tyrant, why? because otherwise we burn through our mana so quickly that we need to medidate after each round. If we don't and we get an add, I won't be able to hold both of them off because of powershortage.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>You call it gun shy, I call it rational thinking and balancing powerusage.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Thanks for helping validate my point about the chain casting one nuke. Regardless if you are gunshy or not. You don't see any other dps class holding back because they might be using too much power.

[Cichlasoma]

<DIV>TY for the kind words on behalf of all Wizards. I had enough last week with my wizard and rolled me a crusader. Until SOE corrects some of the issues the wiz will be on hold while i work this crusader. Now off to read that official message form the Dev. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sineath]

<DIV>I heard that they nerfed the power of the wizards but i never thought I would outdamage one, thats interesting. I think the mages are WAY underpowered in eq2, being that i switched from a summoner to paladin simply because i didn't see that i was doing much of anything (esp since i was a smn in ff and went from this --> <A href="http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/images/mobs/Ifrit-Prime.jpg" target=_blank>http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/images/mobs/Ifrit-Prime.jpg</A> to a few insects :/ ) I find it also somewhat disturbing that mages can not participate in some fights (particularly raid mobs such as anguis) due to the fact that most of their spells would "not take effect"</DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dyvanos wrote:<BR>This has nothing to do with wizards not being able to produce DPS. This is a case of a wizard not nuking enough and/or only chain casting one nuke on a long timer. A lot of wizards are gun shy.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Unless you found a way to reduce the cast time and cycle time on Ball of Flames or BoF, there is no way for a wizard to do more damage.  Post 40, you must debuf mobs before nuking, otherwise you will hit for under 300 damage (assuming you don't get resisted).  Thus the sequence is piercing icicles, BoFl, immolation, fiery pulse, immolation, BoFl, piercing icicles...  That is assuming the mob is still up at that point.  Usually it is not.  Thus you can see the Wizard dps has an absolute maximum that can be done.  We are limited by the cast and recast time of our spells - which do a low % of damage post 40.</P> <P>So if you have some secret to share about lowering the cast and recast time of spells, I'd certainly love to hear it.</P> <P>One other thing.  Aggro is a NON issue post 40.  I don't even bother waiting for the tank to hit the mob before casting.   I couldn't pull aggro off anything (not even a priest) no matter how hard I try.  There is a reason for this.  The percentage of damage Wizards deal at these levels does not move us up on the hate list.  Prior to around level 34, If the tank ever went down, I would be the first one targeted.  Now the mobs just ignore me.  Everyone else in the group would have to be dead or zoned for me to get aggro.</P><p>Message Edited by killzone on <span class=date_text>01-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dyvanos wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Thanks for helping validate my point about the chain casting one nuke. Regardless if you are gunshy or not. You don't see any other dps class holding back because they might be using too much power.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Nonesense.  I go in *guns blazing* and the only time my dps is anywhere near the fighters is if it's a group of 5 or more and I can use AoE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Incidentally, power is not an issue for me.   I can go all out and only use up about an eight of my power.  Why?  because the melee classes can bring it down well before I can blow my load.  For fun we sometimes pull 3 or 4 ^^ mobs.  Only then does my power fall below half.</DIV>

[Bannon]

<DIV>One of the things every seems to forget during these "damage parsings"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many offensive buffs did you have on yourself that the mage did not have?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your weapon...does it have a damage proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did you have a fury loading you down with reactive damage shields and damage procs?  The haste from the troub....definately increases your DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to look at RAW numbers...Tank while that wiz kills a mob solo.  Do no damage at all just taunt over and over.  Rinse and repeat for all classes with no buffs other than what they can do to themselves.</DIV>

[Dyvan]

<blockquote><hr>killzone wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Dyvanos wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Thanks for helping validate my point about the chain casting one nuke. Regardless if you are gunshy or not. You don't see any other dps class holding back because they might be using too much power.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Nonesense. I go in *guns blazing* and the only time my dps is anywhere near the fighters is if it's a group of 5 or more and I can use AoE.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Incidentally, power is not an issue for me. I can go all out and only use up about an eight of my power. Why? because the melee classes can bring it down well before I can blow my load. For fun we sometimes pull 3 or 4 ^^ mobs. Only then does my power fall below half.</DIV><hr></blockquote>In response to both your posts, both of my posts were observations of a lot of people. What I said may be nonsense for you (and that is a very good thing) but to the poster I was referring to in my post even specifically said he used ONE nuke, which is one of my points I was attempting to validate.However, if you are finding these same numbers lower than most melee while nuking constantly, using all DoTs and DDs available to you, then I take that as a valid reference AND it should be more brought into line with what your class is, PURE DPS. In my experience doing my own damage parses, it normally goes scout<>wizard, then plate fighter, then priest, every time. The differentiation I see between scout and wizard is whether or not we have a heavy melee support class in the group. IE, enchanter/bard. Also, take into account your hp/power shifting abilities. Once a scout is out of power, his DPS is heavily decreased and he has no way to get more, until the end of the fight or with breeze or another power regeneration ability. Mages on the other hand have hp/power shifting abilities, which allow them to continue their barrage of DPS over longer period of times without said mana regen because they are using two pools to their benefit instead of one.My motherboard burned out on my computer otherwise I would go right now and parse an XP group to show you what I've found to be the case. Should be fixed by this weekend. (Hopefully)

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dyvanos wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>In response to both your posts, both of my posts were observations of a lot of people. What I said may be nonsense for you (and that is a very good thing) but to the poster I was referring to in my post even specifically said he used ONE nuke, which is one of my points I was attempting to validate.<BR><BR>However, if you are finding these same numbers lower than most melee while nuking constantly, using all DoTs and DDs available to you, then I take that as a valid reference AND it should be more brought into line with what your class is, PURE DPS. <BR><BR>In my experience doing my own damage parses, it normally goes scout<>wizard, then plate fighter, then priest, every time. The differentiation I see between scout and wizard is whether or not we have a heavy melee support class in the group. IE, enchanter/bard. Also, take into account your hp/power shifting abilities. Once a scout is out of power, his DPS is heavily decreased and he has no way to get more, until the end of the fight or with breeze or another power regeneration ability. Mages on the other hand have hp/power shifting abilities, which allow them to continue their barrage of DPS over longer period of times without said mana regen because they are using two pools to their benefit instead of one.<BR><BR>My motherboard burned out on my computer otherwise I would go right now and parse an XP group to show you what I've found to be the case. Should be fixed by this weekend. (Hopefully)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fair enough.  You also haven't stated what level you are.  Lately I've been seeing too many people thinking their pre 40 experience will be the same post 40, which is where the problems are really noticable.  I thought the class was fine up till around 37 and then it started falling further and further behind with each level.</P> <P>Granted it is hard to truly compare DSP because of the various buffs and all, but it's safe to assume every group is going to have some buffs.  If they can kill things at the same speed with or without the Wizard casting it's pretty safe to assume the Wizards damage is not contributing much.  Back in the late 20's to early 30's, if I slacked off on nuking it was very noticable.  Now I sometimes wonder why I bother to cast at all.  Even on ^^ mobs i'm lucky to have enough time to get 2 BoFl's in before the mob goes down.  In that amount of time the melee classes have dished out a lot more damage than me.</P> <P>As we can see from Moorgard's post, this is not what they intened.  Why else would anyone sacrafice armor and melee?  We have to bring something to the table.</P>

[I]

I also agree with the Original Poster as do many of you here.For what Wizzies give up in Armor and deffense they should be doing higher DPS. I've a Sorc alt and keep as many upgraded spells as possible, still I'm rather surprised by her low DPS output.Now I fully understand not wanting to get in an arms race VS mobs.Too little DPS and the class isn't usefull.Too much Dps then it's dejavu, only this time it ends up ruinning EQ2.I'm sure many remember the Mana Burn fiasco during the SOL expansion,perhaps that's why some are reluctant to see Wizzies get their due. Perhaps the solution is less aggro on their nukes freeing them to unleash a bit more?Again..I'm not implying they (Wizzies) should be the DPS force they are in EQ1 however they should be doing better damage than this.What's fair is fair and many of you know what it's like to be on the short end of the stick (No fun). I've heard more than once from lvl 30+ tanks that wizzies and especialy summoners aren't wanted for groups at high levels for their propensity with aggro.That tells me adjustments need to be made.

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>  how to you parse the dmaage?  I would like to do this with my pally,  higher 20s  I know the wiz and scouts are doing by far the most DPS.    If at the higher lvls wiz's damage sucks,  that really sucks.   as for being gun shy,  ifa  few are,  can you blame them?   I stand toe to toe with a mob solo for a few minutes.   they stand toe to toe for all of 10 seconds.   when I have a wiz in my group,  good lord I have to keep them in view all the time, cause the second a mob turns they are dead.  But like I said,  they out DPS almsot everyone else at my lvl,  well  at least around lvl 25 they do.   Wiz's.   hope yall get some lovin</DIV>