Constructive Paladin Discussion

[Aeggest]

<DIV>Alright, folks of the Paladin-community here.</DIV> <DIV>We have alot of discussions about things we thing is missing/bugged with the Paladin class - per chance if we make up one good post about it, we can get the moderators attention, just slightly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However this stuff has to be serious - we cannot have any posts complaining about the speed of our horse - this is a funspell, its not meant to be a game-advantage. We need real and serious issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will update this list as often as I can, but remember - its christmas time right now, my time is limited <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets get the discussion going on the issues we want raised about the paladin-class, i filled in some of the issues I have read about here on the board, and below i have contributed with a set of things i think we might need to have changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>List of issues:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Line of DoT's </FONT>- Only the Oath-strike-line seems to actually work.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ff6600>Weapon Restriction</FONT> </FONT>- Why cant paladin use Great Spears, Halebards, Axes? (we are a few dwarves out here!)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Ranged Slot</FONT> - We can't use bows, fair enough. This means we lack out on stats in this slot, especially against Guardians - will we ever see any idols or the likes for this slot?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Ghoulbane </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>- This entire quests evolves around restoring holy power, to a blade worn only be paladins down through time, laid to rest in the tomb of a great paladin who did met a very valorous end - yet any class can wield this, will we ever see any type of class-restriction ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Blinding Light/Smite Prayer </FONT>- 2x Exact same spell, at around same level, need fixing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Here above are the issues that seems to be flourishing the board currently - here below are a few suggestions of my own</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lay on Hands - this is a nice ability... yet it is not a 'paladin' ability any more in my eyes, every priest has an instant heal with a long repop-timer, its no longer a special ability, the priest-versions even heal for more, so its a weak instant heal - i loved the eq1 version where it would heal the paladins max-hp... this would again put the Lay_on_hands_ability on the map.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heal-utility - We have 2 or 3? heals - singletarget, instant heal... they are on the same line to my knowledge (haven't reached the level yet). I would like to see some more healing-ability, not altogether too much so we could replace a healer in a group, but enough for a group to be able to count on a paladin to survive for a short while if the healer were to die - maybe just another line of heals that wouldnt be on the same timer as the other one - or a line of group-heals, small but good for those traps or ae-mob-situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets bring up the discussion, but let it be serious folks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Aeggestok on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[Ma]

<DIV>Sorry For the OT, but are you Danish?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your name means Ovaries in Danish :p</DIV>

[Aeggest]

<DIV>Hehe yes i am - its a sad and long story, going way back to the beginning of EQ1..... and seeing as i wanted the heritage claims etc. i had to keep the account <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Character however is named Gauron - on the Blackburrow server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Aeggestok on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:02 AM</span>

[RAYVEN2]

<DIV>I agree with the above suggestions.  It would be nice if SOE would give us a statement about GB and if its intended to be used by all classes or if its an oversight that all classes can use it.  Wish they did a weekly Q and A like that other popular MMORPG about a British legend.... </DIV>

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<DIV>Having played EQ 1 for 5.5 years and knowing that Paladin class as well as I do and having played the new Paladin class I think the new one works just fine and dandy in EQ 2. Lay hands is exactly where it SHOULD be, especially if you manage to get the adept 1 book. Our firepower in EQ 2 is very respectable, especially when fighting groups of unmessed mobs. We tank as well as any tank in game and we make extremely good assist tanks if we are not primary tanking as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ghoulbane? Yeah I personally would like to see it Paladin only but I really do not think the game will break if it is not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly most of the 'problem' in EQ II are EQ 1 players who come to it and try to make it into EQ 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ 2 is a new game, new world, new everything. Yes it is based on old EQ history but frankly based is not 100% the same. To me the new system is working and workiung well. I can solo. I can group. I can main tank. I can assist tank and I have abilties that are usefull and that contribute and are FUN in every single on of those situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There really is NOT that much wrong if anything with the EQ 2 Paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good damage.</DIV> <DIV>Good defense.</DIV> <DIV>Good groupability with other tanks.</DIV> <DIV>Good contribution to groups in general.</DIV> <DIV>Good soloability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content] is wrong with the above? Nothing. and my age old adage of 'If it works, don't fix it.' totally applies here IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that all said, you do have valid points. I just wanetd to make it clear that most of our issues are really 'window dressing' and not GAME BREAKING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should have the ability to use axes. As far as I have seen no axe is really better than nay swords so restricting us there is not really a game balance issue. And as pointed out some dwarves love axes (heck some humans and everyone else do too). Plus, obviously, broken spells or effects definately need to be fixed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by GilfalasElaandrin on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[HordesLo]

<DIV>            I myself played EQ1 for years too and a high lvl/aa knight. I do like alot of things about EQ2 and am happy with the way things are going in my knighthood so far. However there are a few things that do bug me a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>            First is the paladin of EQ! was a great undead killer. So far in EQ2  I see nothing in the paladins skills or abilities that makes him so. Paladins by myth and legend were supposed to be the destroyers of undead and here the way it is now I am not seeing it yet. Unless further down the line we aquire undead dealing skills or abilites.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>           Second, I think that ghoulbane should be paladin/sk only like in the original game. I know this is a different game and all but it is supposed to follow EQ1 lore and the rules for class specific items and weapons should still apply. Without these rules you`ll have everyone running around with the same exact thing no matter what class you are. There would be no difference if I a paladin is waering the same exact gear and weapons as a guardian would. There has to be some differenciating factor in there somewhere. Whether the results be good or bad the rules should be enforced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        I don`t mind being able only to use kite shields since most knights always used them, just make some better looking ones. I think LOH right off the bat should be a complete heal up to a certain lvl where you would need to upgrade the skill  later on once you get past a certain amount of hp. I also think epics should placed back intothe game since I never got my stinking fiery defender in EQ1, or at least give us some junk spell that makes your current weapon look like one. I`m still ticked I never got my epic when everyone else did!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>            I think the heals are pretty inline so far with our healing ability compared to  a cleric. The spear and lance idea I think is great! being able to fight mounted on your horse with a one handed lance and shield would be pretty cool. I have only gotten to lvl 23 so far but these are some of the things I have noticed. I have great confidence that in time with expansions and patches that the paladin will become a more unique class to play. I do kind of like the role SA too, my wards and abilites to give ac to a tank is pretty neat. Agood idea i think. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>            Something else I had about was having holy steed upgraded every 10 lvls or so so you you would gain a faster mount, a small perk us knights should have since in EQ1 we had the fastest horses in the game. Only thing faster then a knights steed was 65 bard with a planer drum and celos on. Whos knows what will happen in the future of this game anything could happen.</DIV>

[RyanLy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aeggestok wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets get the discussion going on the issues we want raised about the paladin-class, i filled in some of the issues I have read about here on the board, and below i have contributed with a set of things i think we might need to have changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>List of issues:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Line of DoT's </FONT>- Only the Oath-strike-line seems to actually work.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ff6600>Weapon Restriction</FONT> </FONT>- Why cant paladin use Great Spears, Halebards, Axes? (we are a few dwarves out here!)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Ranged Slot</FONT> - We can't use bows, fair enough. This means we lack out on stats in this slot, especially against Guardians - will we ever see any idols or the likes for this slot?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Ghoulbane </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>- This entire quests evolves around restoring holy power, to a blade worn only be paladins down through time, laid to rest in the tomb of a great paladin who did met a very valorous end - yet any class can wield this, will we ever see any type of class-restriction ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><EM></EM> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't have any of the DoT's yet but I'd like to add:</P> <P>Blinding Light and Smite Prayer need to be looked at, they both debuff the same thing, unnecessary considering other the two fighter class AE Taunts have different effects.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=2212" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=2212</A></P> <P>Weapon Restrictions...would be nice, even the newly updated manual says paladins/shadowknights can use these.</P> <P>Ranged Slot...I'd like to use a Crossbow (if they ever exist) but more concerned about the loss of stats.</P> <P>Ghoulbane....Fine as is.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Seomon]

<DIV>Oath Strike isn't the only DoT that works. Implacable Wrath works (lvl 32 skill).</DIV>

[Dankster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Blinding Light/Smite Prayer </FONT>- 2x Exact same spell, at around same level, need fixing.</DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>This is my biggest pet peeve here.  Has anyone found or seen a difference in these two taunts?  Have you found the effect of either to be stronger, weaker?  This has been buggin me since I recieved these two skills.  Other than than that I really don't have any complaints, or issues yet.</EM></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Darki]

It would definetly be nice if we could use Lances (spears/great spears). Axes I don't really care about either way, but I wouldn't be unhappy if they added them for us.Personally Ghoulbane is a non-issue for me. Let them do the quest, they can't sell it, it maxes out at level 40 so it's going to be grey by level 45. I am looking forward to the new Paladin *heritage* weapon. (There better be one)Well sure, you can compare a Paladin's ability to heal with a priest and the Paladin is going to lose everytime. But compare a Paladin's ability to heal to say a Guardian, now who's going to win out? What I'm trying to say is we are not priests, we are fighters.We do have another single target "heal", it's called a ward. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sure it has a 15 second recast on it but it still helps. I have to agree though, I was fully expecting Penitent Sacrament to be a targeted heal, and I was very disappointed to find out it was only self.Some other issues that I am aware of:The level 25 power Divine Vengeance (Inflicts divine damage and grants the Paladin increased strength) does <b>not</b> grant the Paladin increased strength.The level 30 power Shining Beacon is worse than the level 16 power Knight's Stance. See this <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=2096" target=_blank>thread</a>.

[Darki]

They also mention in the thread I linked about that blinding light/smite prayer do not appear to debuff divine resist at all.

[hieronym]

<DIV>I would like to see either righteous anger or vengence length increased. I was AT to a shadow knight the other day and he could pull from a lot further than what i could.  We are basically the same class so him being evil he can fire his equivlant righteous anger further?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not fair in my eyes</DIV>

[BoomJa]

1) Line of DoTs - Some seem to work, and some do not. Perhaps they were not intended to be DoTs in the first place? It doesn't really affect my game experience.2) Weapon Restriction - This doesn't bother me, but I can see how some knights would want to be able to use a lance. From a fluff perspective it doesn't make sense, but we seem to be a "defensive" tank rather an "offensive" one like a monk. Perhaps that is the rationale. It doesn't affect my game experience. 3) Ranged Slot - It would be nice to have items that fit here. If we are given good stats items that fit in the ranged slot, expect the "bow" classes to scream bloody murder because their slot is taken up by a bow. 4) Ghoulbane - Careful what you wish for. If Ghoulbane becomes Paladin only then expect some other weapons that we would otherwise use to become Guardian or Berserker only. It makes no difference to me if a SK can wield Ghoulbane. In fact, I think it is a plus. The more folks that actually do the work to get the good weapons then the better equipped my groups will be. If my groups are better equipped then I will have a better time fighting more challenging mobs. 5) Blinding light / Smite prayer - This is an obvious mistake. Does it affect my game experience? No. I say fix it when time permits. It shouldn't be a development top priority. 6) Lay Hands - I think it is completely appropriate at its current level. I don't think we require a "second life" every thirty minutes. It saves the day when the day needs saving. More often than not I end up using it on a caster who was overzealous in their nuking and it gives them a large HP boost and me a good bump on the hate list. Remember we have our personal heal that casts quickly and gives us a large health boost. Combined with Lay Hands we have almost a full HP bar of "safety". 7) Healing Ability - I agree that a unique healing ability, like a group regen would be wonderful, but even that isn't really unique. Perhaps a group Lay Hands where the entire group is boosted one time with a long cooldown would be an idea? The ability to instant heal disease or poison would be nifty, and not overpowering. My 3 cents,

[Zanthy]

Well, so far I am enjoying playing a palidin, though I am very dissapointed that we don't get polearms. I would very much like to wield one. Also, I would like to see a few different looking horses (and it would be nice if they ran faster when we use Sprint).

[_Michell]

<DIV>Im extremely upset with the weapons issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We are start out as a fighter, and fighters should be skilled in every weapon available. </DIV> <DIV>2. The book said we were able to have access to the weapons and armor. This was the reason I chose to be a paladin. I did not want</DIV> <DIV>to be limited on weapon or armor selection when I walked  into the store.</DIV> <DIV>3. We do lose a stat/slot advantage by not being able to equip bows or ranged weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess my main gripe is just the weapons thing. I dont care about the spells, wouldn't care if I didn't have them at all. But when the instruction manual sent with the game or even the updated one online says we can use all of these other weapons. Well IMO that is just a let down, and SOE not doing their work. Hire a proof reader, preferably one who plays the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I kind of like the lance idea, but its not going to affect the way I currently play the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would mention something here about taunt's radius. Since I can not use effectively as a pulling device, but thats not really its intended use. That is what ranged weapons are for. But there again us paladins cant use that either. So effectively I guess our role is truly supposed to be the white knight who comes riding into battle to save everyone's [Removed for Content] when they are in trouble. Granted we can pull most mobs off of people and save them that way, but 9 times out of 10 I end up dying in the process. How bout a few more bubs for concentration spells? That might help us out a bit. I really dont know. (I just ding'ed 20 yesterday and have not fully explored the paladins ability yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But have I mentioned how upset I am about not being able to use all the weapons I was told I would be able to use yet? How bout an axe training guide we can read, that would grant axe ability. I believe paladins should be smart enough to figure out how to use an axe by watching someone do it or even reading a book about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just give me back my weapons!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LordUlr]

<DIV><quote>First is the paladin of EQ! was a great undead killer. So far in EQ2  I see nothing in the paladins skills or abilities that makes him so. Paladins by myth and legend were supposed to be the destroyers of undead and here the way it is now I am not seeing it yet,</quote></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had a high level EQ1 paladin and we weren't all that effective against undead.  We had a few slays now and then, but that was too streaky to really be of any good use and I certainly don't think it qualifies us as a great undead killer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But on the topic, I am upset about not have a lance either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ulric</DIV>

[Dyvan]

<blockquote><hr>_Michelle_ wrote:<DIV>Im extremely upset with the weapons issue. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1. We are start out as a fighter, and fighters should be skilled in every weapon available. </DIV><DIV>2. The book said we were able to have access to the weapons and armor. This was the reason I chose to be a paladin. I did not want</DIV><DIV>to be limited on weapon or armor selection when I walked into the store.</DIV><DIV>3. We do lose a stat/slot advantage by not being able to equip bows or ranged weapons.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I guess my main gripe is just the weapons thing. I dont care about the spells, wouldn't care if I didn't have them at all. But when the instruction manual sent with the game or even the updated one online says we can use all of these other weapons. Well IMO that is just a let down, and SOE not doing their work. Hire a proof reader, preferably one who plays the game. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I kind of like the lance idea, but its not going to affect the way I currently play the game.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I would mention something here about taunt's radius. Since I can not use effectively as a pulling device, but thats not really its intended use. That is what ranged weapons are for. But there again us paladins cant use that either. So effectively I guess our role is truly supposed to be the white knight who comes riding into battle to save everyone's [Removed for Content] when they are in trouble. Granted we can pull most mobs off of people and save them that way, but 9 times out of 10 I end up dying in the process. How bout a few more bubs for concentration spells? That might help us out a bit. I really dont know. (I just ding'ed 20 yesterday and have not fully explored the paladins ability yet.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But have I mentioned how upset I am about not being able to use all the weapons I was told I would be able to use yet? How bout an axe training guide we can read, that would grant axe ability. I believe paladins should be smart enough to figure out how to use an axe by watching someone do it or even reading a book about it.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Just give me back my weapons!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Paladins don't use axes or spears not because they aren't intelligent enough, it is because Paladins are Clerics who were chosen by their god to wield a blade in pursuit of their gods faith. As for a lance, in combat people would use a lance on their horse once. As soon as that lance hit someone it splintered off or was dislodged from the knights hand and then they drew their sword/mace/flail whatever. If you don't care about spells and want to use all of the weapons then be a warrior, it's simple.In response to the no ranged weapon statement and pulling with taunt. We have ranged DDs, the only qualm I have about it is that we have nothing to put in our ranged slot. It's not a big deal although I have done a /feedback about it.Regardless of what the manual says about anything you have to remember it is an MMORPG, things will change.

[Dyvan]

1) The only DoT I've had problems with would have to be Holy Sunder. It just simply doesn't do DoT damage. On top of this, Shatter Will and Divine Vengeance simply don't give the added STR bonus they are supposed to give.2) You are a Paladin, get used to the weapon restriction. If you don't know why you can't use these weapons then don't complain until you understand what a Paladin is.3) I have a ranged DD for pulling. As for stats getting +4 STR +5 AGI in a ranged slot just isn't worth my time complaining about when nearly any support class worth their hide can give you + 50-100 wherever you need it.4) Ghoulbane I would like to be Paladin only but I'm not losing sleep over it. However my RP side can't stand to see a non-Paladin even holding the sword (:5) No idea how this came to pass. One should be deleted or fixed. ( I believe one wasn't supposed to be AE )6) This ability should *never* fizzle. I can't tell you how annoying it is when you run into a bad situation and chain fizzle LoH three times in a row. Also I believe it should heal for more. When I can be buffed to about 4100 HP and my Virtous Touch at Adept 1 only does a 968 heal I don't feel safe. Especially when a mob decides to smack me for 1000.7) Our healing abilities are great. I have no problems with them whatsoever. We have a unique healing ability. It's called Sacrament. This 5 minute heal with a reagent is better than my LoH. You could argue that it isn't because it is self only but if you need to LoH someone in your group, something is already wrong.

[Fax]

<DIV>Sorry I posted this in the other thread, but I'd like to post it here also.  On the part where you have to restore the Ghoulbane to it's full power you have to kill 3 named mobs.  One in varsoons, one in Crypt of Betrayal, and the other in Nektolus fores.  Ok, the one in the Crypt of Betrayal is supposed to be a specter.  Well, I went around killing all the ires with a group and we spawned Specter of the Ire or something along those lines (it had specter in it's name) and we killed it.  Though, upon killing the mob I didn't get any quest credit?  Anyone know why?  Am I killing the right mob?  Do I have to slay it with Ghoulbane equipped?</DIV>

[RyanLy]

<P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Dyvanos wrote:</P> <P>Paladins don't use axes or spears not because they aren't intelligent enough, it is because Paladins are Clerics who were chosen by their god to wield a blade in pursuit of their gods faith. </P> <P>Regardless of what the manual says about anything you have to remember it is an MMORPG, things will change.<BR></P> <P> <HR> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dyvanos wrote:<BR><BR>2) You are a Paladin, get used to the weapon restriction. If you don't know why you can't use these weapons then don't complain until you understand what a Paladin is.<BR><BR>3) I have a ranged DD for pulling. As for stats getting +4 STR +5 AGI in a ranged slot just isn't worth my time complaining about when nearly any support class worth their hide can give you + 50-100 wherever you need it.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The downloadable .pdf manual has been updated (after release) and it still shows that Great Spear/Axes listed for crusaders. If crusaders were never supposed to use those weapons well....that's just "sloppy" updating. They need to fix the text error.</FONT></P> <DIV>Also, the dieties are gone as far as the general populace/player-base is concerned.....so giving up the skills because of diety backing doesn't work....and you're comment about not "knowing" is just not true.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>The ranged slot being empty....stats are stats, and while very few will miss a loss from their Pristine Conditioned Elm Short Bow (+3 health, +3 power) ranged item now, that perception will change when higher items like Pristine Conditioned Teak Short Bow (+42 Health, +4 Wis., +5 Int., +4 Agi., +36 Pow., +8 Str.) become more available.</FONT></DIV>