Paladin + Berserker = Problems

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV> <DIV>I am the Paladin of course, absolutely loving it, but I was saddened a bit last night. A Berserker is meant for damage output, and they do it so well. A Paladin is meant to be a support tank, and they do it so well. But when a Paladin and a Berserker a grouped, who should be the tank? This question popped into my head when I found it near impossible with upgraded AE taunt to keep agro off the Berserker in my group. This is not a problem with the Paladin class, I am very happy with my class, and I have been the MT in 99 out of 100 groups I have been in. I do not mind stepping down to ST/Support role because my abilities shine well in that role. But, what I am asking is others opinions on the taunting ability of Berserkers. It seems as though many of the Berserker's attacks are AE and have a secondary effect of taunting all the mobs it hits. This makes it extremely hard to keep taunt off of them, plain and simple I spammed my taunt and found it very hard to keep mobs off him. This saddens me because in my set group of friends there are 4 of us, Me (Paladin) + Templar + Mystic or Fury + Wizard, so we have 2 spots to fill. Pardon me for wanting the best reward for my time, but I prefer to creat "stacked" groups, meaning I want the best bang for my buck and the most exp in the shortest time available. I never have trouble finding people to join, I have worked hard to get a great list of friends ingame that I trust. But now, I feel as I have to skip over those potentialy friendly Berserkers out there with LFG on because they would be forced to equip a shield and [Removed for Content] their dmg output and the dmg output of the group itself by making me a ST, I may as well invite a Guardian before I would invite a Berserker into my group, but I would not want to do this because it [Removed for Content] the dmg output of the group and it is a letdown to the group. I am known for my exp groups, not idle chit-chat or debt groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, what I am asking to everyone else is this, do you think the secondary effect of taunt should be removed from some of a Berserker's assortment of attacks, not to help the Paladin class, but to help the Berserker class?</DIV></DIV>

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>As a side note, I realize Berserkers have the ability to outdo us on AC because they can equip tower shields hence they would be ideal MTs. But this severely hurts their dmg output and it is sad to see such a dmg output oriented class be forced to [Removed for Content] themselves in groups. I suppose this post belongs in the Berserker forum, but I am seeking input from fellow Paladins who have grouped similarly equipped/level Berserkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After surfing through the Berserker forum it seems as though many of them agree that their hate building abilities are a bit extreme and find it a problem which hurts their own dmg output when forced to MT. I have spoken with Guardians who share the same feelings about Berserkers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sony, listen up, please do something, I feel sorry for Berserkers now after reading through their forums and other forums. This is a serious problem, the class cannot even attain their full potential.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Deis of Destiny on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 AM</span>

[Tomodac]

<blockquote><hr>Deis of Destiny wrote:<DIV><DIV>I am the Paladin of course, absolutely loving it, but I was saddened a bit last night. A Berserker is meant for damage output, and they do it so well. A Paladin is meant to be a support tank, and they do it so well. But when a Paladin and a Berserker a grouped, who should be the tank? This question popped into my head when I found it near impossible with upgraded AE taunt to keep agro off the Berserker in my group. This is not a problem with the Paladin class, I am very happy with my class, and I have been the MT in 99 out of 100 groups I have been in. I do not mind stepping down to ST/Support role because my abilities shine well in that role. But, what I am asking is others opinions on the taunting ability of Berserkers. It seems as though many of the Berserker's attacks are AE and have a secondary effect of taunting all the mobs it hits. This makes it extremely hard to keep taunt off of them, plain and simple I spammed my taunt and found it very hard to keep mobs off him. This saddens me because in my set group of friends there are 4 of us, Me (Paladin) + Templar + Mystic or Fury + Wizard, so we have 2 spots to fill. Pardon me for wanting the best reward for my time, but I prefer to creat "stacked" groups, meaning I want the best bang for my buck and the most exp in the shortest time available. I never have trouble finding people to join, I have worked hard to get a great list of friends ingame that I trust. But now, I feel as I have to skip over those potentialy friendly Berserkers out there with LFG on because they would be forced to equip a shield and [Removed for Content] their dmg output and the dmg output of the group itself by making me a ST, I may as well invite a Guardian before I would invite a Berserker into my group, but I would not want to do this because it [Removed for Content] the dmg output of the group and it is a letdown to the group. I am known for my exp groups, not idle chit-chat or debt groups. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So, what I am asking to everyone else is this, do you think the secondary effect of taunt should be removed from some of a Berserker's assortment of attacks, not to help the Paladin class, but to help the Berserker class?</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote> What level pally are we talking about. By L29 we have so many tools to keep aggro that it shouldn't be a problem. You'll eventually have a single target taunt, an area taunt, a single target aggro siphon and a group-wide aggro siphon. Upgrade 'em, learn how to best use 'em, and the beserker won't steal aggro from you anymore. In your case, toss the single single target siphon on the wizard (or Templar, if you only have one healer). Keep the group siphon up at all times, and only use your AE taunt. Keep the single target taunt around for pulling things off the others from time to time. Of course... your group mates still need to know not to buff you immediately after a pull or lay on their heaviest nuke at the onset of combat, but I hardly expect SoE to give us taunting abilities sufficient to cover poor playing style.

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>I am a level 28 Paladin. And the problem is not keeping agro from my group, that is very easy. I have tested and 2 AE taunts is more than enough to keep agro off anyone in my group, wizard/templar or otherwise I can keep agro off them so easily but I toss a well equipped Berserker into the mix and it is just not possible to keep the mobs off him. I can put Redemption on him, I can use group agro siphon, and still I cannot pull taunt off of the Berserker if he is using his abilities for best dmg output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And never in my post did I ask for Sony to give us better taunting abilities, I asked Sony to fix the massive amount of hate that Berserkers get from using their given abilities. And FYI, I do not play my paladin poorly. All my abilities are upgraded to appr 3 atleast, and practically all my taunting abilities are Adept 1.</DIV>

[Bludlette]

<DIV>I actually see it from a different point of view.  Think of a Berserker like a monk.  You will sacrifice AC for dmg output.  You can't be both heavily armored and expect to be a big damage dealer.  But if I wear very light armor I better have the ability to do a ton of damage and some ability to mitigate, to some degree, incoming damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Main Tanks are not for damage dealing.  They are there to absorb damage.  Heavy Plate wearing fighters are meat shields as thier main priority.  The other fighters are a balance between DPS and dmg avoidance.</DIV>

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>Then what your saying is that Berserkers should not use all their abilities, that it should be a class of discipline. Disciplined enough to know when to use their high damage abilities. This is a novel idea indeed, I like the thought of it, but you and I both know this won't fly in the real world. Players see Berserker, they see dmg output and they want to live up to that. Finding a Berserker disciplined enough to know when to use their abilities properly will be extremely more difficult. And I think it is rude to invite a person and then tell them how to play their class, let alone tell a Berserker he has to not use all his abilities when all he wants to do is bash things to pieces.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It will cause problems, the healers will be yelling at the Berserkers who are not assigned MT when they slip up and deal to much dmg. And another thing it could cause is a lazyness in the class, they have to push buttons less often, then you have bad players picking up the class because they can slack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well, I still stand by the idea of lessening their ability to gain so much hate so quickly to allow them to do more dmg over time without causing healers and the MT a heart attack.</DIV>

[Asa]

Sounds like the 'zerker is intentionally trying to get aggro, using whatever taunt abilities they get, just to annoy you. Shouldn't be a problem holding aggro from any other fighter unless they're being a dork about it.I've grouped with monks, bruisers, guardians, even other pallies, and never had any problem holding aggro at all whatsoever unless they intentionally try to take aggro (and if they do, they quickly learn not to, as my Templar partner and I don't heal anyone who takes aggro intentionally unless designated as a tank) -- in general, it's best just not to group with other fighters though, I think. If you have a good group makeup, you should just pack along more DPS. Maybe another priest and a mage or a scout.

[Bludlette]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <HR> Deis of Destiny wrote:<BR></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=2>I am a level 28 Paladin..</FONT><FONT size=2>. And FYI, I do not play my paladin poorly. All my abilities are upgraded to appr 3 atleast, and practically all my taunting abilities are Adept 1.</FONT></DIV><BR><FONT size=2> <HR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>He never said you did he said poor playing style, ie. Your group mates buffing you right after the pull or nuking to much right off the bat.  Thats all.  Not a dig at you.<BR> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT></DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>Actually, as a zerker, It wasn't something he was doing wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>zerkers currently have a skill (bloodlust) that is not working correctly.  The fix is currently being test, and should be fixed </DIV> <DIV>pretty soon.  (On a side note, i hope they don't nerf the skill, just fix it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bloodlust's description is a party buff, AND whenever someone is hit by an enemy, gives us a chance to go into our rage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, in its current state, this is not what happens, instead, ANY TIME WE HIT, we go into rage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rage is a buff to us, that hastes us, and increases our offense, and reduces our defense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>especially us duel wielders, i use two 1s delay weapons, this means when i have this buff on, twice a second I proc the buff rage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as you are well aware, MOBS dont like it when people buff in combat.  this generates hate.  you can imagine just how much aggro we generate when were buffing ourselves twice a second for the entire battle.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>basically, when i have bloodlust up, i never need to use a taunt nor do i ever even need to use a combat ability, and i will maintain aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is ODVIOUSLY not what sony intended for this skill.  it should be fixed shortly, and hopefully the calls for zerker nerfs will stop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know this thread is not calling for zerker nerfs, but its frustrating when I see many posts (mainly in the guardian forums) that want to see zerker damage reduced, reasoning that we must be generating all this aggro due to our damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyway, i'd appreciate if people would point out this skill as the broken one, and put an end to any "nerf" zerker threads, they are out of hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you check the zerker boards, you'll notice, that almost all zerkers agree this is broken, and needs to be changed.  odviously there are a few that are unreasonable and don't want it changed.  but those are in the minority.  personally i'm usually a main tank, so it makes my job very easy, but frankly, I relish the my role in trying to keep aggro off the real damage dealers (mages/rogues) and the healers, and pride myself on being able to do it well.  but with this skill the way it currently is, it takes all the skill out of my class.  I hope they fix it soon, so there is skill involved with keeping aggro when your trying to keep aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my worry, is this is our primary skill to allow us to go into rage.  I certainly hope they don't just make this buff not make us go into rage.  if they fix it this way, it will be a major nerf to the zerker class, as our increased offensive output is due to our hasted state while raged.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what really needs to happen to this skill, is either change it to the way it was intended, proc when hit.  or if they leave it so that it proc's when we hit, do not rebuff us each time, instead make it reset the timer on the rage duration, but not actually re-apply the buff so that it causes the additional aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyway, just thought i'd put my 2 cents in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick Stormfury</DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>double post.... (lag on this forum right now is terrible, causing this... sigh)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Erick_Stormfury on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Mattissi]

<DIV>What erick says .. the problem is a skill called bloodlust.</DIV>

[Tears_]

Played with assasins and zerkers as damage and me as a paladin taking the agro, you do have a few options.- Use your REDEMPTION Ability to take the hate of whoever is doing the most damage- Other characters are there for damage, dont bother wasting your power on damage (maybe the Oath Strike DoT but nothing else)- Burn your mana using your FZ/DoF and encounter taunts- Or rather than burning mana with taunts, use HO pulling.... pull with smite, then start a HO -> Oath Strike -> AoE TauntRarely loose agro when using the above, even with higher level assasins.Edit for typos<p>Message Edited by Tears_UK on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 PM</span>

[Brist]

<DIV>I found Erick's post very interesting, thanks Erick</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both myself and my guild leader are healers and also are people who often assemble groups. In a discussion recently we discovered we've both separately come to the conclusion that Berzerkers are best avoided when you but a group together</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are three problems that we have, which Erick has gone some way to explain</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first is that in cramped areas the Berzerkers may wake up non-hostile adds by using area attacks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second is that they break mezz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The third is that they pull aggro off the MT if they are not MT themselves. What this means for the healer is often that we have to over-cast to keep them both up and the mob comes for me</DIV>

[Renn]

<blockquote><hr>Tears_UK wrote:Played with assasins and zerkers as damage and me as a paladin taking the agro, you do have a few options.- Use your REDEMPTION Ability to take the hate of whoever is doing the most damage- Other characters are there for damage, dont bother wasting your power on damage (maybe the Oath Strike DoT but nothing else)- Burn your mana using your FZ/DoF and encounter taunts- Or rather than burning mana with taunts, use HO pulling.... pull with smite, then start a HO -> Oath Strike -> AoE TauntRarely loose agro when using the above, even with higher level assasins.Edit for typos<p>Message Edited by Tears_UK on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Actually, we're talking berserkers, not assassins. The hate that assassins generate compared to current berserkers is completely neglibible. Not even noticable. A berserker my level (29) can at times take and keep aggro from me without EVER hitting taunt, because of how broken Bloodlust is. I have ADEPT 3 Inflame, ADEPT 3 Blinding Light, MASTER 1 Redemption, ADEPT 3 Faithful Zeal, Adept 1 Divine Inspiration. So don't try to tell me its because of lack of skills. I drop Master level Redemption on the berserker and hit Inflame and Blinding Light every time they pop, sometimes even drop a Faithful Zeal on him (giving me the aggro buff) then using BOTH taunts, and still not get aggro back - and the berserker hasn't even taunted one. Oh yeah, and its not because I'm doing crap damage either.. Adept 3 Oath Strike, Adept 1 Blinding Bash, Adept 3 Divine Vengeance, etc.Its as Erick said, dual wielding fast weapons causing the buff to go off an absurd number of times is totally broken. Once thats fixed hopefully things will even out a bit more.

[Fleaba]

<DIV>Just one example of a Bezerker special that is an uber taunt/hate generator.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>15 - Hold The Line : Immobilizes warrior, each hit dealt by Warrior procs AE taunt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell creates an insane amount of hate for the zerk, a constant flow of taunts spewing forth from him every time he gets hit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as the Zerker's specials revolve around hate building (which may very well be forever) there is no way a Pally will be able to keep agro off of him. UNLESS the zerker holds back on some of his uber spells like BLOOD RAGE and similar ones until the mob is half dead like my friend does. Not sure if that is the answer...but until then......we'll just have to modify our tactics some. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah I know....it hurts the Zerker's damage output...but what else is there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>again, the problem is not hold the line...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hold the line, does give a aggro boost for each swing, but its VERY small in comparison to bloodlust.  honestly, I don't think i've used hold the line more then once or twice period.  Hold the line is not your normal buff, it takes power to maintain, therefore someone who activates that, not only are they immobilized, but in a very short time, your out of power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bristaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>I found Erick's post very interesting, thanks Erick</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both myself and my guild leader are healers and also are people who often assemble groups. In a discussion recently we discovered we've both separately come to the conclusion that Berzerkers are best avoided when you but a group together</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are three problems that we have, which Erick has gone some way to explain</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first is that in cramped areas the Berzerkers may wake up non-hostile adds by using area attacks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second is that they break mezz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The third is that they pull aggro off the MT if they are not MT themselves. What this means for the healer is often that we have to over-cast to keep them both up and the mob comes for me</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P></FONT> </P> <P>Well a few comments to this post, I think what you've encountered is a few players who have no clue how to play their class.  there seems to be a lot of people switching to zerkers because they think there the l337 class of the moment, with some skewed perception that because we hold aggro so well (one broken skill) that we must be doing insane amounts of damage (just false reasoning).  but because of this, i've noticed a lot of people powering through levels and have no clue how to play the class.</P> <P> </P> <P>1st:  when dealing in small cramped quarters, waking up non-hostile adds is due to using one skill.  its an attack that hits all creatures in the area of the zerker.  This skill is very useful when fighting a lot of monsters at once, and you need to add some damage in addition to straight taunts.  IT IS NOT good for one or two monsters at a time.  It takes a lot of power, and it takes about 4 seconds to shoot off.  at level 28 it does about 50-60 points of damage to all creatures around.  if your going to give up 4 seconds of damage, it better be for more then just 1 or 2 mob's because otherwise its a total waste.  when your in the close quarter fights, rarely do you have the kind of numbers to use that skill.  if you do encounter a major group, then usually theres a "Safe" place to pull too, so you CAN use the skill.  but if your not in a safe area to use that skill, its pretty simple, DONT USE IT.</P> <P>2nd:  Breaking mezz... no excuse for this.  the only things that causes a zerker to break mezz is executing the standard warrior HO that all warriors get, and proceeding to do the AoE HO.  all fighters have access to 3 solo HO's that come up randomly.  a single damage HO, a AoE damage HO, and a rare ac buff.  if you have a mezzer in the group, and you start to execute a HO and crushing anvil comes up (our AoE HO) dont complete it, break the chain. Our taunts do not break mezz, we do have another skill (bloodrage) that has a chance of proc'ing damage against all enemies in an encounter.  but this skill was nerfed early on (it was way to powerful at first) and now is nearly useless, if your using this skill, stop, until they un-nerf it a bit (they went way over board with the nerf) your just hurting your group.</P> <P>3rd:  pulling aggro from the main tank... well then they need to NOT USE BLOODLUST if your not the main tank.  problem solved.</P> <P>So in the future, dont necessarily shy away from zerkers in a group, just get one that actually knows how to play his class.  If you encounter one doing any of the above, now you know what to tell them to fix the problem.  just tell them to STOP ________ your doing ________.  and maybe we can educate that person on how to play his/her class.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>-Erick</P>

[Alkyr]

<DIV>Actually the Ho is not the problem once you get into the early 30's as a berserker. I can't remember offhand what level you get these skills at but they also break mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stunning cry: Encounter stun with dmg, this will break mez of every mob in the encounter every time</DIV> <DIV>Stomp: This is just an upgraded kick attack that also produces a very minor encounter heat aoe, this aoe also breaks mez wich is an extreme pain because its one of our stapple attacks >_<</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers who know what they are doing should not be doing these attacks if there is an enchanter on mez duty.</DIV>

[Keet]

<DIV>And why exactly should the berzerker NOT tank?  I play a zerker and have quite good AC, very good HPs, use a Battlemasters Tower shield and Berik, Sword of Thunder.  We always hear the " Your not a damage dealer, your a meat shield" when tanks talk about being DPS, I don't lose much DPS in 1hand/shield setup, but I can take a hell of a beating and control aggro effortlessly, which imo is what being a tank is about, taking the hits and controlling aggro..If the berzerker can take the hits fine ...why are you trying to out MT him?  especially if he can control the aggro just as easily or better without as much effort...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin + Berzerker = awesome tankage provided the paladin uses his abilities to augment the berzerker instead of trying to play the zerker as some substandard scout wannabe.  We are warriors, plain and simple.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Keethe on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 AM</span>

[Gilasil]

It's my understanding that one of the berserker's attacks is bugged and generates far more aggro then intended. In my experience if you're grouped with a berzerker there's no way you'll be able to out taunt him so you might as well just let him MT. At least until they get around to fixing that bug one of these years.Although that does seem to mean paladins are expected to play second to both berzerkers AND guardians. Which I find aggrevating since SoE made a big deal that everyone would of the same archetype would be able to perform their roles equally well, which is tanking for us.

[RyanLy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keethe wrote:<BR> <DIV>And why exactly should the berzerker NOT tank? </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Like the OP said, in this situation, the zerker wasn't added to the group to tank, but for dps.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RyanLynx on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

[Keet]

<DIV>OP said - "A Berserker is meant for damage output, and they do it so well."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NO, a zerker is a tank.  They are a slightly more DPS oriented WARRIOR.  I strap on a tower shield and keep agro the whole fight while doing <STRONG>more</STRONG> DPS <STRONG>as </STRONG>the MT than I could possibly do as an offtank... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my question still stands, why was the zerker NOT the MT?  we are custom built for MTing...with a paldin backing us up, we are downright amazing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>disclaimer: this is given that the zerk in question is of equivalent lvl and gear to the paly.  if they are significantly lower or ill equipped then they should learn how to control agro...and yes zerkers can control aggro they just don't produce anywhere near as much DPS as they could being MT.</DIV>

[Rhianni]

<DIV>I'm not sure what the problem you are having is to be honest.  You are asking who the tank should be.  You are unable to get the aggro off the beserker so let him be the tank.  You said you dont have a problem playing back up tank.  Likewise you stated that in your main group there is no beserker so you are often the tank.</DIV> <DIV>I think your answer is that each group is different and warrants different rolls/support rolls.</DIV>

[CrimsonValerian]

<DIV>So i have a question you say you're using dual wield and no shield?  If you are you're losing out on at least 2 attacks used for hate control.  And anyway if the zerker has good AC and can keep the mages safe hell i dont give a crap, you dont touch my mages.  Versatility is the role of the paladin, buff him up keep him going, if he can keep hate kudos to him.  The paladin shouldn't be looking for glory and props from the group but like a previous poster stated, you have the ability to tank and the ability to off tank so fill in the gaps, keep the party alive and everyone has a good day.</DIV>