Guardian vs Paladin

[Yadylia]

<DIV> <DIV>Repeating my post here and in the Guardian thread because I would like to see opinions/advices from both classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Hi everybody</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I picked the crusader path (crusader lvl 12 at the moment) thinking paladins were the ones who get to buff the party but after checking the skills for both Guardians and Paladins I see Guardians also get group buffs (not to mention debuffs, stifle among others) ... so now I am wondering what are the advantages/disadvantages of being a Pally? you get few heals but other then that? and which buffs are better the Guardian's or the Paladin's? and what about the tanking ability? are they both as good?</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Hawkt]

<DIV>Okay. I'll play. Both are great tanks. Both can tank equally well in XP groups and in Raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Choose what one you like based of the playing style.  Guardian's have massive Ac, and do better damage. Correspondingly their effects seems to be a bit lower than what a paladin can do. Paladins have a little less AC, and Damage, but our effects seem to be able to do more, with more utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if you want to work with a class that you have to be pretty smart to use your smaller effects carefully for the best results, be a guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be a button masher, but have  more utility, be a Paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Yadylia]

<DIV>And this is mine <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=246810208" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=246810208</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said what bothered me a little is when I realized Guardians also had group buffs so I am wondering if the Paladins buffs/group buffs are as good or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>p.s. you should post your paperdoll <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Yadylia on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 PM</span>

[Kayth]

Just from my experience...Today I grouped with a Lvl 24 Guardian in SH...He had about 1300 Hp, and 1000ish AC.Before him was a lvl 22 Paladin with 1200ish hp, and 1100 AC.Me? Lvl 20 Paladin with 900 HP and about 900 AC..not completely geared with Heavy armor yet though.The both the guardian and the paladin were pretty equal in tanking. However, today I realized how much more useful we can be as a support tank rather than MT. Vigor of Trust, Offering of Armorment, etc. We can really power up another tank and on the other hand we aren't able to do so much for ourselves. In the future I think I will enjoy being a supporting tank more, but for the time being, Im confident that my abilities are on par with any other fighter of a similar level.

[loregaz]

<DIV>As far as I see the defensive skills are the same, the guardian will have an advantage in tanking since he can use the tower shield (more ac), but the pally has some heals which even if they are cost intensive, have saved me and my party on several occasions already.  If I am grouped with a guardian who is my level or above I will insist that he tank since I can buff him with my spells (these are single target and not group), but if the guardian is below me in level and has fewer hp I will be the tank.  So far every lower level guardian I have grouped with has been fine with this btw. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Shau]

<DIV>>so now I am wondering what are the advantages/disadvantages of being a Pally?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Psst... horse... ask which class gets a horse, and which class has to huff it... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Seidr]

<DIV>It's more about gear really.  The differences are rather shallow.  Do you have to have an axe to feel manly?  Are you comfortable with having to learn all of your abilities and how they stack together?  Are you comfortable with sacrificing yourself to aid your allies (especially if you aren't the main tank)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kite shield vs. Tower shield is insignificant when you factor in self heals and wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group buffs are almost the same really, and where the guardian might give ac, we give health or HP and the ability to block.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do notice that Paladins burn through more power when tanking.  However, I think Paladins are more flexible, especially when fighting multiple mobs, we have more AoE attacks I think (not 100% sure here).   Also, our direct damage spells work better than weapons against bigger mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The differences are real subtle.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's my opinion that Paladins can solo better than Guardians.  When I'm foraging, I thank the gods that I'm a Paladin.</DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>Well, weaponry limitation on pally and unable to use tower shield are some disadvantages, neither bad enough to cause a 'woe is me i am useless' attitude thuogh :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I may be wrong but i think guardian has a skill that effectively makes him, tank when not (all damage goes to him) which is not overly useful in terms of back up tank because if he has the hp then surely he should be tanking anyway-however, in emergency if MT does get too low it can be a real life saver, and if healer gets aggro he can cast it onto them i believe...which sure makes LoH look laughable in comparison :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>aggro can be difficult for the pally...having said that, once you have found an effective way of getting and keeping aggro then that problem no longer exists, it merely can take awhile to find a best combo t get good aggro-but these boards have plenty of helpful tips so that difficulty is removed too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally gets a horsey!!!  It looks kinda poop, dwarves look like they are on some cute little pony, would be nice if the horse looked less wimpy and camp and more noble knights holy steed, but cant have everything i guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems to me all the tank classes are fun to play and all have their uses, none seem clearly better than the other which is good, so just play whatever you feel you would like most</DIV>

[Seidr]

<DIV>Paladins also get an ability that transfers damage to them.  Intervene, then an upgrade in mid twenties or so.  Plus there is the group heal, and the group version of intervene.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said, learn your abilities.  A studious Paladin can be equal to a Guardian, but it takes more skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every class' lvl 20 fun spell is crap.  However, if given the chance to look different vs. being given a horse, I'm going horse every time.  Most fun spells are just "OOoooh look I glow!" types, lol.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The horse doesn't have to be very fast to be useful, just 10% faster than normal run will save you from a mob.  That is infinitely more useful than glowing.   This is especially true when you have run out of power, and can't sprint.</DIV>

[Dyvan]

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=104033101In regards to this post I believe at my level Paladins have a distinct advantage over Guardians. I base this on these things.We are tanks. Which means we are entirely gear and level based (Especially since *any* raises in your defense skill increase your ability to tank exponentially.) Now, about gear. I don't care what you are, guardian/berserker/paladin/shadowknight, if you do not have the proper gear you will be a bad tank. It's as simple as that. I've yet to find a tank near my level with gear even close to mine. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but then again I've been spending tons of cash/time finding gear to make myself suitable. As for the tower shield argument that's completely off base. What tower shields are you comparing? Even at my current level I've never seen a tower shield that beats a kite shield with a difference that is significant to mention. Even if it was 50AC/100AC more, with the rest of our gear being the same, I can still heal with minimum power what the guardian would be taking on the chin.Now on to aggro.Faithful Zeal - Damage ward, transfers some hate from the target to you.Redemption - Transfers some aggro acquired by the target to you. 2 ConcentrationDivine Inspiration - Increases melee output of group and transfers a ton of aggro to you.Blessed Aid - 343 Heal at App3 for 88 Power. (88 Power is a joke for that kind of a heal, I normally have about 1500 when grouping.)With these and normal taunt I very rarely lose aggro. I believe the only time I do is if a Bard without Redemption on decides to chain cast songs while I'm pulling or we get an unexpected add that immediately hugs our enchanter (:Pulling with no money involved. I have two *Combat Arts* I can use at a dead sprint and cast farther than most people can shoot a bow.Damage. I don't believe Paladins lack in the damage department at all. We aren't made DPS but we can shell out damage better than some.Oath Strike - 200-300 Melee Attack with 3 Pulses of around 40 damage and 1 Pulse of 20-30.Implacable Wrath - 250-300 DoT over 30 seconds.Glorious Weapon - When my weapon procs on level 37^^ it does over 100.As for defensive skills we are along the same line as Guardian. Shining Beacon, Intervene, whatever, they have the same line of spells just in a different form.Don't take me wrong, I believe Guardians are great tanks but I think we are taking the lead in the tank department. I'll have to see if my mind changes post 40 but as of know this is where I stand personally.

[Michealt]

<DIV>I would like to consider us at the get out of jail free card in a lot of cases,  look at this chart:</DIV> <DIV>            MT   Pally - yes   Guardian - yes</DIV> <DIV>            Group buff    Pally - yes Guardian - yes</DIV> <DIV>            intervene damage  Pally - yes   Guardian  - yes</DIV> <DIV>            Back up heal   Pally  - yes   Guardian   -  NO </DIV> <DIV>            Ward damage (any group member)   Pally   - yes   Guardian  -  NO</DIV> <DIV>            Give armor     Pally - yes    Guardian   -  Not sure (</DIV> <DIV>            Lay Hands      Pally - yes     Guardian   -  NO</DIV> <DIV>            Horse !!!!! lol   Pally  - Yes   Guardian  -  (if you have not life or shop on Ebay)</DIV> <DIV>            </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that is just my 2 cents</DIV>

[Michealt]

<DIV>I would like to consider us at the get out of jail free card in a lot of cases,  look at this chart:</DIV> <DIV>            MT   Pally - yes   Guardian - yes</DIV> <DIV>            Group buff    Pally - yes Guardian - yes</DIV> <DIV>            intervene damage  Pally - yes   Guardian  - yes</DIV> <DIV>            Back up heal   Pally  - yes   Guardian   -  NO </DIV> <DIV>            Ward damage (any group member)   Pally   - yes   Guardian  -  NO</DIV> <DIV>            Give armor     Pally - yes    Guardian   -  Not sure (</DIV> <DIV>            Lay Hands      Pally - yes     Guardian   -  NO</DIV> <DIV>            Horse !!!!! lol   Pally  - Yes   Guardian  -  (if you have not life or shop on Ebay)</DIV> <DIV>            </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that is just my 2 cents</DIV>

[Yadylia]

<DIV>Thanks for all the info and advices everybody.    I definitely won't give up on my pally, I like her too much anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And p.s. Dyvanos I would really like to see your paperdoll to see what your armor looks like (yeah yeah I'm a girl in rl lol), very nice stats and gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another p.s. what is the gnome eye for?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yadylia on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:20 PM</span>

[asteldian]

<DIV>I have no proof of this but im pretty sure tower shield blocks more often, pretty sure thats one way there is difference between the shield types-or is it based purely on shield factor?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Penp]

there are differencesPaladin: Bufftank/Utility Tank,best to be second tankbut equal AC and because of this equal good TANKso why best 2nd tank?, because Paladins buffs are ment to increase ANOTHERS PERSON stats (Ac,defense etc), ( to sacrifice stats and TRANSFER to a Main Tank) Thats why Guardians:First Tankwhy if Paladin has same AC?? Because Guardian can EASIER KEEP HATE with some special abilities they get.For example my 20 Guardian got the ability to increase hate level with enemy everytime the enemy hits me.this is power saving !!! Paladin could hold aggro good as well but needs to use lots of power for: smites etc and doesnt get this powerless hate increasing abilities.Paladins:paladins have wards, small heals, buffs , smites but using all this they run fast out of powerGuardians:Guardians however are Meat Shields, they dont need to fire smites and cast spells to heal aggro they get some special abilities that makes them hold aggro more easilyPaladins:get 2 handed weapons attacks (less defense, more offense)Paladins dont have acess to all weapons and shields, but there are good kite shields and swords too so it isnt a problem at all its just a "cosmetic" decisionGuardians:get Shield abilities and Knockdowns (more defense related and hate control stuff)All weapons, all Shields, Ranged Weapons, Dual Wield thats why guardians are ment to be maintank and to some point they can tank more easily because they get more "keep hate" spells and attacks than the paladinpala is best as 2nd tank , he is more a utility class that can be equal good tank too but best to work as 2nd tank due to the fact that he cant buff himself, cant buff the group but can buff a single maintank seriously.finding partys, the main reason not to go into paladin:like tons of paladins in search but just like 2 guardians in search. people "THINK" we are the better tanks and they often treat paladins like second choice, and thats why they will give me an invite more faster than some paladin-kid.Horse-Reward:horse doesnt matter. i have both lvl 20 paladin and lvl 20 guardian. did the paladin because of the horse, horse is great to have , thats why i have a paladin too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but one day i will find drops that are worth tons of gold and buy a own horse with my guardian, and after this day guardian is better<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />i just think guardian has it easier to hold aggro, paladin can hold equal good BUT has hard job to do thislast but not least:fun aspect!!for most players its just more fun to have heals, wards, smites, and buffs , to be paladin over a pure tank.but THANKS TO EVERQUEST 2 DEVS!!! even the pure tank has its buffs and spells <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and nothing is boring in eq2, all attacks are cool animated with glowing weapons and magical sparkles, so in most games people would choice the paladin to just have some EYE CANDY; but in everquest 2 even the warriors got eye candy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and to some persons dual wielding and towering shields is coolest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Penpal on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span><p>Message Edited by Penpal on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[TimberC]

<DIV>OMG, Its obvious Paladins and SK's are only Makeshift tanks at best. Seems like 90% of ppl that choose Pally or SK in Eq2 only do it for the FREE horse they seem obsessed with having one. SoE giveth and SoE taketh away, think about it. If SoE choose to give a class(s) such a big payout at lvl 20, then disadvantages are sure to follow at later lvls, thats when i will laughing (ha ha ha) at all the No-brainers that choose a class purely on not what it does or plays like, but based on a money saving for a mode of transport that clearly is no faster than having a Pathfinding or SoW. At later lvls when we're all flying around on Bought and paid for magic carpets you Paladins and SK's are still gonna be meandering around on your crappy slow mules, then you all will be wondering just how much the prize of a free Horse has cost your class in terms of true funtionality at later lvl's.</DIV>

[Michealt]

<DIV>You 're Hating on Paladins................... We got the horse early!!!! Yes .  Suck it up.  You will get money for your horse in the 40's its cool.  So will we!!!    The best thing is we can pull with the horse.  That is the cool benifit,  quicker pulls, we can blast with our spell and not be in combat and run back at full speed of the horse.  Pally as eye candy?  I dont think so .................................................. ....We make things happen better in small groups.  I was out many times where the cleric went LD.   Becuase it was only a group of 3.  (the role of cleric during this fight will be played by the paladin)  Guardians can not do that.  At 26 you get 3 heads and a Ward upgrade witch automatically generates hate.  So while healing and warding it increases hate.  So it really depends what type of group you have to say which is better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stormdoor</DIV>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>It all depends on the group.   Some group the guardian would make the better tank,  he can hold aggro easier.  If that is not a problem I would go with the pally.   Best bet,  get both in the group,  let guardian be MT, let pally be ST,  and walla  you give the guardian 150-200 more AC,  you can ward and heal him and be there to pull the healers butts out the sling if they get aggroed or pull the guardians butt out the sling when the healers are oom</DIV>

[Cassusdy]

<DIV>Paladins are good tanks, but from the healers perspective I would choose the Guardian any day because he is way less maintenance. Just my experiences all the way to lvl 37 healer that even the best Pally's do not tank as effectivly as a guardian.</DIV>

[Dyvan]

I've read a few posts that say guardians hold aggro easier? Where is your basis for comparison?I've played a Guardian to 30 and a Paladin to 34. They both hold aggro equally well. I've read hundreds of posts about guardians who don't think they can keep aggro and posts about paladins that don't think they can either. I've never had any problem holding aggro unless it was just a completely random situation where the groups tactics were dissembling.This debate is actually getting boring. It's a subjective, opinion based debate. I've seen no hard data to back up either side. Hell, even I just base it on my own personal experience and conjecture.

[Penp]

lol its not opinion based but skill based^^if you have a guardian you know that you have abilities that allow you to increase hate with the enemx without using any power, for example by just getting hit you increease hate levela paladin can be exactly as good as a guardian but only if paladin uses all his spells and smites etc and this drains power rapidly , my guardian just goes into hate increasing mode and thats it

[Seidr]

<DIV>I hear what some here are saying, but others of you need to play your paladins more or read up on the skills more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins get every ability that guardians get, it just has a different name, and may act differently, but accomplishes the same result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have the time to list them all side by side here, but the guy that has a Guardian and a Paladin both over 30 knows what I am saying is true.  Also, you all are smart enough to find the spell lists and compare them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, wards generate agro over time.  Intervene, and shield spells generate agro.  Paladins get buffs for themselves, the group and sacrificing types also.  Paladins can MT just as well as a Guardian, but it does take a little more brain power (not saying Guardians are dumb, just that they're easier to play, as Penpal said, but his supporting arguments were not entirely correct).  Additionally, Paladins solo better and can fill the role of a secondary tank better.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to be consious not to steal agro, even if I am a couple levels lower than a Guardian MT.  Heck, I can MT, even if there is a higher level guardian, but I do spend allot of time questing and buying/selling my way to the best gear I can grab.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, blowing through your power is only bad if you are out of drink or in an area with allot of nearby adds.  In a minute, you'll be up to full power again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call us equal, but don't tell me I can't MT just because there's a guardian in the group.  If he's higher level I will step aside, otherwise, you better have a good argument concerning gear and such, and not this childish antic from EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Down with the haters!  Long live those with enough brains enough to find evidence to correctly argue their points!</DIV>

[Deis of Desti]

<DIV>Man I love tanking, and you have no idea how happy it makes me that I chose a paladin to do it with.</DIV>

[Grimme]

<DIV>Its funny how on the paladin page it's pal vs guardian. On the guardian page it's guardian vs berserker. And on the berserker page.. well, they really don't complain that much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The classes are what they are. If you really think a guardian is better, play a guardian. Or vice versa. The rest of the gaming community isn't having this discussion, so go out there and show them what a good tank is, regardless of what you play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hoova_Dalewt]

<DIV>I play a L25 pally...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to agree tho I will always make way for a guardian to be MT, despite beating 99% of them i see who are even 1-2 levels above me in terms of AC and resists..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because although I feel i can tank with the best, it is obvious to me that I am designed to act within a support role within the group if there is a Guard present. I ward him. I give him AC. I heal him to aid the cleric preserve mana. I increase str & stam... you get the idea</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problems with recognising the most suitible role for each class, and I have no ego difficulties with allowing another class to be MT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isnt a competiton between two classes.... We were obviously made to work as a single unit. A quality paladin and guardian combo are a joy to watch, but I dont think 99% of people truly understand the nature/ role of the pally so it's wasted on them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But dont ever, *ever* diss the horse tho (btw as a female hobbit pally as my main it's ideal in appearence hehe)...  it's so damed useful you wouldnt belive... anyone, and i mean anyone, who says differently is blatantly suffering from an acute case of mount envy  ;P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins should love guards, and guards should love pallies!  GROUP HUG!! lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MadGam]

<DIV>Ok Stat wise Guardians are the MT and we are the supporting roles. I really dont think any of it matters much more than knowledge. I think its all the person behind the toon. People who actually visit these boards and who continually search for more Paladin resources. A person who really knows their toon can accomplish vast feats. </DIV>

[Xti]

<DIV>lvl 31 guardian here</DIV> <DIV>you guys got it all backwards</DIV> <DIV>i see some threads saying guardians can do better damage and taunt/keep aggro better</DIV> <DIV>i can tell ya its the other way around</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a pally does equal or more damage then guardians</DIV> <DIV>pallys can taunt and keep aggro a hell of a lot better</DIV> <DIV>IMO it goes zerker > pally > guardian as for as the best tanks</DIV> <DIV>also im pretty sure our AC is useless, and that goes for all fighting classes (not including monk and bruisers)</DIV> <DIV>i bet i could tank just as good without armor on</DIV><p>Message Edited by Xtife on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[Renn]

True enough about tanking with no armor.. It seems like most of the damage comes from mob specials, which I'm pretty sure people have proven in the past ignore armor class. Which makes avoidance classes (monk/bruisers) better in some cases, even with HUNDREDS less AC.

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> I have no proof of this but im pretty sure tower shield blocks more often,<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Blocking is strictly a factor of your skill with the appropriate shield. Bigger shields just give bigger AC.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>As for who is the better thank? Neither. Both classes work well as tanks. Both classes do good damage. Both have abilities to act as support tanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>From my experience I have not seen guardians appreciably out damage me ever. Where as the guardian group buff boost AC and HP, my group buff boosts Attack ratings and gives me aggro of the other group members.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Really ther is no Us Vs Them in EQ II. We do the same job in different ways.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I know Paladins do GREAT damage on groups of mobs as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>In the end do what you like. Main tank, assist tank. We do both and do them both well, as does a guardian.</FONT></DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>I see threads throughout these boards, zerker v guardian, zerkers are better than guardians! Guardians are better than Zerkers!  Guardian v Paladin, monks v plate tanks...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every thread seems to have the same outcome-different opinions.  I think its safe to say Sony did a great job keeping all the fighter classes viable tanks and secondary tanks, its not relly about who is better, its simply about what class you prefer to play.  Also, there are a lot of combos in game, making most of the different classes-different subclasses work better with certain other subclasses, so who is better depends on what the group has.</DIV>

[NatSTER]

<DIV>I am almost level 50 (Paladin). I'm not very happy with what i have seen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are two versions to this whole tanking deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) The way Sony envision it on paper:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians: Best tank, exceptional taunt, lowest DPS, Damage mitigation skills</DIV> <DIV>Beserker: Weakest tank, Not supposed to be able to wear armor as good as Guardians/Knights, Best DPS out of the tanks.</DIV> <DIV>Knights: Good tank, DPS in between Guardian and Berserker, Good utility skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)The reality:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Zerkers can wear the same stuff we do. They tank as good as Knights who tank just as well as Guardians. </DIV> <DIV>- Knights DPS suck because there are no good swords/hammers in the game. Knights' other mean of DPS is through combat skills but that take away so much power that they can't use their utility skills.</DIV> <DIV>- Half of the good paladin skills do not work the way the description says.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Half the server play these tanks. You only need 1 tank in a group and at most 3 in a 24 man raid. GG to the tanks...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV> <DIV>Monk is the weaker armor so weakest of the tanks and best DPS of the tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian has brilliant guarding abilities as well as plenty of abilities and taunts to MT.  DPS is poor, pretty much same as a pally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally has heals wards and buffs, making them superb secondary tanks and good MTs as their spells can cause great aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker another plate tank, superior aggro but shortage of defensive buffs leaving them slightly short of pally/guardian tanking ability, they have slight advantage on DPS compared to these classes due to their skills being offensive.  Using certain abilities they can up DPS considerably making their damage far superior to the pally/guardian, however this is at a cost of a large tanking hit leaving their ability to tank considerably inferior to guardian/pally while inthis 'DPS mode'.  This mode best used as secondary tank however huge aggro being generated which often means not able to use this mode which makes the zerker not overly useful as secondary tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Bladezil]

<DIV>Groups only need one tank. Point blank. A Paladin that knows how to play his class, has good equiptment and at least adept taunts is the best choice <STRONG>so far</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A. Paladins can hold agro just as well as anyone else (cept zerkers who are agro machines).</DIV> <DIV>B. Make the best damage soakers in the game (sorry, but it is true).. and are awesome with just one healer in group. (4 dps baby)</DIV> <DIV>C. Paladin DPS is horrible.. they get a few awesome dps skills but these cost huge amounts of power (with long recasts) and are used only once or twice during a battle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians make excellent tanks.. but their AC is worthless when a mob is using specials. IMO they need a HUGE boost in hitpoints to make up for their lack of heals. With two weapons equipped, Guardians make Paladins look like leetle geerls in the dps department. This is why I believe Guardians make better off-tanks. With their spot taunting abilities, they can grab agro if a Paladin loses it to a healer, very quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3300cc size=7>- Bladezilla Killa -</FONT></DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>Ah well, it doesnt really matter to me, 'need' and 'most efficient' means nothing to me, i can hunt happily with 4 tanks so long as they are fun people, making a great xp group is something i tend not to do.</DIV> <DIV>Anyway, yeah you are right, guardians do need hp boost..but then if he did surely the others would too, and pallies wuold be pretty annoyed having every other tank with a lot more hp</DIV>

[Siphar]

<DIV>Some interesting reads here - just wanted to add my 2cp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly im a 23 paladin atm and have grp'd with and even had a little experience with guardians myself. My paladin is in pretty much tip-top condition (all armour quests done - even though i can't wear the BP yet) as far as gear packing out around 1500AC in a well balanced group with a kite shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i feel that AC is perhaps the deciding factor for me - due to the lack of spells the guardians possess compared to the pally (heals/wards etc) it would be essential for them to have some kind of added mitigation or boosted AC - and they do... Tower shields add a lovely amount of added AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what makes me confused is when i hear guardians 20+ (yeh im not lying or making this up) saying that they use a 2H weapon because they want more damage as opposed to AC or defence capability, they therefore have a similar AC/HP but no real spells. This is my view is just silly as without their only real advantage (higher ac shield) they are really only a paladin with .. wait for it.. no power and no lay hands...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the guardians i have grp'd with have less AC and similar HP at my lvl and have even played with guardians several levels higher with inferior stats - and ofcourse no utility spells etc. I realise not all people time to invest in doing trade skills (for cash) and doing armour quest after armour quest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree fully with that the paladin is an excellent and well-suited off-tank and quite frankly i welcome to opportunity to put out my dusty 2H weapon and wack some mobs and buff/ward/heal my fellow companions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think the Guardians are under-powered i just think they should utilize all the benefits available to them to be better tanks, the tower shields etc are more than available to the guardian class, and do not require a heavy purse to be effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In conclusion i feel the best combo would be the pally of-tabk and guardian MT as SoE intended according to the spell lists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class=date_text>12-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span>

[Siphar]

<DIV>double post - sorry</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class=date_text>12-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 AM</span>

[Dyvan]

<blockquote><hr>Siphar wrote:<DIV>And i feel that AC is perhaps the deciding factor for me - due to the lack of spells the guardians possess compared to the pally (heals/wards etc) it would be essential for them to have some kind of added mitigation or boosted AC - and they do... Tower shields add a lovely amount of added AC.</DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class=date_text>12-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span><hr></blockquote>You show me a tower shield with a significant AC boost that makes it better (5-20AC isn't going to cut it) compared to a kite shield of the same level and I might buy that statement.

[Bladezil]

<DIV>All tanks get spells that benefit other tanks.. Paladin was not "intended" as an off-tank. Stop listening to rumors and stop just looking at your spell list and look at everyone else's.</DIV>