Do you notice this? (Paladin's not considered tanks?)

[Memna]

<DIV>I know alot of Paladins are the MT in alot of different lower level groups, but from what I can tell at level 31 is that I've noticed groups "prefering" guardians as the MT even with a lower level then the paladin and this is usually do to the fact of guardians getting the tower shield and having more AC. I've been asked numerous times what my AC is and the MT is almost always picked by the tank with the most AC, therefore more then likely it will always been the guardian with the tower that has the same level armor as the paly because of the big boost of ac from it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From my experience is that I've been told by healers that in general paladin's are a bad choice for MT's due to the fact of more healing then the normal tank but they fail to realize that paly's can assist in healing themselves as well as the group. I've also heard several times in many different groups and from other people that alot of people out there dont even consider the paladin a tank. For example, in Runnyeye I was in a group with a 29 Guardian, a couple 29-31 healers, 32 Swash, and myself a 31 Paladin. I was the off tank even though I was 2 levels ahead of the guardian, when the guardian left half the group said "We need a new tank!!" not even thinking that they had a paladin in full plate in the group.... I've noticed this trend alot, anyone else notice it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know we'll never be the "MT" of the group at higher levels, but I've noticed that paladin's have been rejected by groups that need just a tank aka Guardian, I'm just starting to see the same thing as EQ Live was, paladin's are shunned. So in short, if a group needs a tank and there is a 35 paladin and 34 guardian, most likely they will pick the guardian......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just really wondering if anyone noticed this trend and what they feel about it. Thanks! :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Falc410]

At lvl 24 I had 300 AC and 200 HP more then our guardian (because his equipment plain sucked) and still I am only the offtank. Most of the groups since lvl 20 consider Paladin's as offtanks and guardians as MT. I can only tank when either no guardian is around or when I build my own groups.So I share the same experience as you do.ps. I have no problems holding aggro once I casted my first ward <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ghu]

<DIV>Same, seems everyone considers us non-tank material which is wierd because I never lose agro and have better ac/hp than most guardians I have grouped with.</DIV>

[Costan]

<DIV>Considering some of the abilities we get that allow us to shield or transfer AC to another PC (Offering of Armament, etc.) it seems to me that Paladins are designed with a "secondary tank" role in mind.  A Gaurdian with Paladin support is a pretty kick-butt combination for holding aggro and keeping everyone alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problems with that--I kind of got that impression from looking at the abilities list prior to my choosing the pally route.  Either way, I tank just fine when a Gaurdian is not available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wareeo Speedwagon <Fir Bolg></DIV> <DIV>Paladin, Guk Server</DIV>

[Malad]

<DIV>Yes some groups are like this and not worth your time if you ask me.  I main tank in my normal group which is me, a templar, troubador, dirge, and a beserker without any troubles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People say gaurdians have more health.  Which is true but with my ability to heal myself I can more than double my health and no gaurdian has twice my health so far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People say gaurdian have more taunts.  Again while true people forget we have abilities that manipulate the hate lists like divine inspiration, redemption, and more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said we do make excellent secondary tanks though since we can loan our ac to another tank, heal/ward another tank, and just have a ton more utility than any gaurdian who can do nothing more than tank.</DIV>

[SaintPet]

<DIV>This used to really peeve me, but since then I've grown to support the concept.</DIV> <DIV>The fact is, 4-5 of our powers at level 20 are designed for assisting a primary tank.  Sure, we can tank in a pinch (and I frequently do), but we ultimatly do best when we can buff a main tank's AC and damage resistance.  The best part is that, since we're assisting off the main tank, we can HEAL THEM with out heals, supporting or suplementing our Priest.  If you were main tanking you'd have to pause and target yourself to get your heal off on yourself.  Much better to just weave it in with the damage you're doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truth be told, I was pretty irritated to be told what I could and could not do when playing my character, so I ended up creating a Warrior Alt.  But now that I've had a chance to play more, I find that I actually really enjoy the "second fiddle" role - it's a bit more active and requires some descrimination on my part.  The good news, of course, is that if you have a good group or guild to play with, you can do whatever you want.</DIV>

[Ghu]

<DIV>I don't mind being 2ndary tank. Have no problem with that actually. What really peaves me is when I'm in a group that refuses to fight until they get a 'true' tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean seriouslly, if I'm in a group of 4-5 peeps and they all just sit there waiting for a guardian, grr..</DIV>

[Malad]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SaintPeter wrote:<BR> <DIV>This used to really peeve me, but since then I've grown to support the concept.</DIV> <DIV>The fact is, 4-5 of our powers at level 20 are designed for assisting a primary tank.  Sure, we can tank in a pinch (and I frequently do), but we ultimatly do best when we can buff a main tank's AC and damage resistance.  The best part is that, since we're assisting off the main tank, we can HEAL THEM with out heals, supporting or suplementing our Priest.  If you were main tanking you'd have to pause and target yourself to get your heal off on yourself.  Much better to just weave it in with the damage you're doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truth be told, I was pretty irritated to be told what I could and could not do when playing my character, so I ended up creating a Warrior Alt.  But now that I've had a chance to play more, I find that I actually really enjoy the "second fiddle" role - it's a bit more active and requires some descrimination on my part.  The good news, of course, is that if you have a good group or guild to play with, you can do whatever you want.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>You do not have to target yourself to heal if you have a creature targeted.  In fact you do not need to target yourself for any helpful spells while in a fight if you have a creature targeted.  The game is smart enough to know that you want to apply the spell to yourself.</P> <P>Just thought I let you know because if you are messing with switching targets for healing and fighting while solo or main tanking you are giving self more problems then you need to.</P>

[greyfarer]

<DIV>actually u dont have to target yourself for heals. if an enemy is targeted, heals and wards go to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i grouped w/ a guardian that was one lvl higher than me and he had 6hp more. doesnt seem like guardians have that many more hp than pallys to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pallys are great secondary tanks when a healer cant keep up w/ healing. added wards and heals are great. but i havent been in a group yet as MT that i wished we had a guardian. i can ward and heal myself while tanking and still get off taunts. no issues. havent lost aggro yet. id rather MT myself and get another dps class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but yes.. everyone wants MT to be a guardian. *shrugs*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont think they realize how good our wards and heals are.</DIV>

[Memna]

<DIV>Well I've been in groups that also wouldn't fight until they got a "tank" even though they had a perfectly armored paladin sitting right there. Also, its begun to be a realization of many groups out there that you only need 1 tank in a group that has a AOE (area of effect) taunt and do not need another tank but instead replace it with a dps. In this thinking, the paladin is not needed. Just someone who can migitate the damage to a better extent and at higher levels thats usually a guardian. I think off tanking will die down eventually, and will become standard for one tank only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really dont know what to say about this... don't really want to scream nerf, but heh.. don't really feel "needed" in higher level groups... Sure a paladin can assist in healing, but another dps in the group in the place of the paladin *does* equal less damage taken in the long run because the mob is killed quicker.</DIV>

[Maxim]

Ya that does suck. I hate downtime in a group. I can understand my "support" role, but I can still tank. Alot of the preventing health is how you play as well. We get some decent abilities when properly used will allow us to tank for some time.

[Reev]

<DIV>Yes, I've noticed this too.  Was in a group with two monks and myself and someone asked, "who's gonna tank, should we get someone?"  **BOGGLE**</DIV><p>Message Edited by Reevah on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 AM</span>

[Falc410]

The guardian has a similiar buff as Ancient Pledge which he can cast only on other players but not himself. So our spells are no reason to be secondary tank.And about the targeting stuff. The heal spells will hit the the current target of the mob you cast it on. Nothing smart there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Memna]

<DIV>Or how about the famous...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Mr. Paladin says</FONT>, "Hey you guys have room for a Paly??"</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Ms. Group Member says</FONT>, "Sorry, we need a tank."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've always found that one entertaining....</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>OMG .. dont bag on guards. .. their only purpose is to tank. thats it .. thet are suposed to have more ac .. WE ARE LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO WEAR HEAVY PLATE. that doesnt mean we are the new tanks now .. its just something extra nice for us. i mean really if they made it capeable for us pallies to have more ac than a guard, **ZOMG**  would anyone even pick one? .. for the duel wield? no ... /cough zerker /cough</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>o and guards have more hps than pally .. its a fact .. and everyone that is compairing and saying they have more hps or ac than the guard in the group .. its because ur gear is better. plain and simple that doesnt mean that all guards are lower in hps than the pallies. anyway .. theres no real reason to get all fired up about this .. guards are tanks .. thats their roll. .. i think its selfish to try and take that roll away from them .. =</DIV>

[Memna]

<DIV>Then let me ask this theory, honest question. If a Paladin is not a tank, then what is it? Its not a healer really, its not a dps. Then what is it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Bobadilla]

<DIV>I think EQ2 has actually done a pretty good job of balancing the pally and the guardian (it's the zerker who's left holding the short end of the stick imho).  The problem is that people haven't realized this yet.  At level 22 here are my stats:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC 906</DIV> <DIV>Attack 375</DIV> <DIV>Power 598</DIV> <DIV>Hit Points 949</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blessed Aid costs 49 points to cast.  On my own with no buffs and a full bar of mana I could cast it 12 times during a single fight and still have mana to spare.  The Apprentice I version currently heals me for 176 points per cast.  Do the math and that gives me an impressive 2112 additional optional hit points that I bring to every fight.  Of course I don't drain my mana bar every fight - there's no  need.  But even if we got hit A LOT more often than a guardian (which I don't think we do) we have more than enough spell power to make up for it.  Like I said though, people who don't play a pally just haven't realized this yet.  If there were dueling in game I think they would figure it out pretty quick.  I'm confident an equal con guardian would never be able to mop the floor with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be glad we CAN play a support role as a secondary tank.  The guardian is a one trick pony (at least if they have a support role I've never seen one use it).  At level 22 with Offering of Armament, Intervene, Ancient Pledge, Vigor of Trust, my ward and my heals I can help turn the main tank into one heck of a meat shield.  What can a guardian do for me if he's not the main tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason why people think a pally isn't as "good" a tank is because our tanking style is different.  A guardian is a passive tank - he just has to stand there and get hit.  A paladin is much more active in comparison - he has to throw in a heal here and a ward there to do the same job.  I still think we're equally effective.  But I agree that other non-pally players apparently haven't figured this out  yet.</DIV>

[Malad]

<DIV>Nobody is banging on Garudians but they are no more of a tank than a Palladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All fighter arch-types were made with the idea that all of them can tank equally well we just do it different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gaurdians have more health and armor so we make up for that with heals and wards is just 1 example of how we accomplish the same goal but differently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have more versitle skills but the warrior branch has more versitlity in gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is some players get it stuck in their heads that Gaurdians are the tanks and forget about the rest of the fighter arch-types.  I really feel sorry for brawlers I am sure they have it worse than us.</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>there was a simple post early in the game like a few weeks ago that said and i quote " soe has made pally use-less again " .. now look i dun belive that at all .. infact .. i think i put out plety dps and i have yet to see any pally get turned down from a group .. at least on my server.. we just arent the best at anything right now .. just give it time .. there will be other things .. im not putting our class down i love playing my pally .. i dont even have an alt .. any way just sayn .. give it time </DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>o i thought of a word ... " eyecandy " lol we are knights in shineing armor .. we get horses .. we are weaker tanks that cant cast spells that look nice and do some nice things .. " ... we are eyecandy =</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>what i think im trieng to say here and that ur missing is that we are a hybrid class. im sorry but its true. we are a tank/medic. and because we are hybrid we wont be doing either  better than the real thing .. but a little bit of each. the thought of makeing a class that tanks better than a guardian but still casts buffs and heals and rides a horse at lvl 20 is just silly. i really have nuthing bad to say about pally like i said before i love my class and the fact i get to do a little bit of each a medic and a guard. only thing i am findeing a bit agrovateing is that they still havent created something for our range slot .. witch is fine if it isnt a bow .. how ever .. we have an empty slot where we could be getting some stats that the other classes are getting.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Theory on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Memna]

<DIV>Who ever said anything about us wanting Paly's to tank better then a guardian? I never said that. </DIV>

[Malad]

<DIV>Theory I think you are still in the EQ 1 mold of thought it sounds like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Palladins tank as well as Gaurdians from all my expereince we just do it different.  This has been the goal of EQ2 from the start and I think SOE did a good job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not think we are better than gaurdians but at the same time we are not worse we just do the same thing differently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 was balanced at the arch-type level so all fighters should tank equally well, just like all priest should heal equally well, and so on.</DIV>

[creepazoid4]

<DIV>Keep your heads up Paladins!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reality is -  Paladins,  hands down are better tanks that can outlast Guardians any day.  They are the Divine Tanks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT What should realize is that when you put a Paladin and a Guardian together,  the Guardian <STRONG>should </STRONG>play the role of MT ONLY because the Paladin can augment his stats making the Guardian shine in the battlefield (Literally).  This does not work both ways giving the paladin the higher ground enabling him/her to play this role of Holy Augmenting Fighter in this case.  Lest you not forget,  the Paladin is a noble fighter who fights for a cause,  not for glory.   Guardians may be good natured folk with good hearts but have not been blessed by the Gods!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also keep in mind when playing the role of MT,  you must be a leader!  Nobody will follow you or even consider you as a Protector if you don't stand up and put out!   It saddens me to see fellow Paladins say that they are peeved when a group says that they need a tank while they are IN the group!!  Step up and take charge!  Only you can make a difference so speak up!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I speak of this because I have done it myself.  When a group is asking for a tank they are not asking for a Guardian,  they are asking for LEADERSHIP!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Peace.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bloads - 21 Paladin </DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I do not work for SoE.</DIV>

[Theja]

<DIV>Creepazoid pretty much nailed it, but just to add a note.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In beta, Guardians were considered better tanks than Paladins, and to be honest, they were, for the sole reason that our taunting was pretty bad. But the fact is they buffed us a lot for retail and I have no more problem holding aggro than any Guardian out there. But this misconception carried over from beta and unfortunatly theres still a lot of ignorant people that believe it as truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With my AC buff, my HP buff and shield blocking buffs, I have more HP and AC than a guardian of my level. Add to that that I can ward and heal myself and I can outlast any guardian out there.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians in theory can do more damage than I can, so what? Dealing damage isnt my role in the group. I can tank named mobs 5-6 levels higher than me with just one healer in the group and that's what's important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My regular group consist of me, a templar, wizard, illusionist and ranger, but I've grouped with other people too that never really had a Paladin as tank and they were very surprise that I could do a better job(Or maybe I'm just a better player than the guardians they grouped with).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's just a matter of knowing how to play your class. Like said before, we tank just as well as guardians, we just do it differently. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jokalaylau</DIV> <DIV>29 paladin</DIV> <DIV>Oasis</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thejaff on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

[Theja]

<DIV>Double post.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thejaff on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[Theo]

<DIV>aye and well put indeed .. i agree w/ some aspects as my mind might still be in eq1 ( /sigh im tryn' to shake it off ) anyway ... i keep reading comparing comments about  ac and hp as a pally is higher than a guards of the same lvl.. i just wanna repeat this one more time ok nobody get mad at me. GEAR = WIN. it was true in allmost every mmorpg for sale to date. its a fact better gear improves every aspect of ur playing. no matter how well u play ur class .. if u have really freaking uba gear .. u will have that much of an easier time doing wot ever ur doing. another importiant side ... if my breast plate has more hps than urs does and were the same lvl ... omg .. gues wot .. ill prolly have more hps than u .. it shouldnt take alot to grasp the concept. there fore compairing classes w/ hps or ac comment is just stupid.. strip ur char done to the naked bone .. and do the same w/ any guard of the same lvl and compiar stats then /wink .. that will set this bs strait. and aye and group works best w/ guard tanking and us buffing the **ZOMG** outta them ... it just works better. ya ive tanked plenty of groups and wow i can hold agro ... </DIV>

[Valca]

<DIV>We tank fine in EQ2. </DIV> <DIV>I concur that we have abilities that make us supporting guardians so that if grouped together and of similar skill and equipment and level, let the guardian tank and buff him. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cosmos_Sag]

<DIV>  Personally, and this is from limited experience--granted---I think that two crusaders might do better than one guardian and one crusader. In fact, multiple crusaders could be fairly devestating if they commit to any sense of organization among them. I know, from a team of three crusaders/paladins that I was in not long ago, that having two crusaders acting as support to the mt crusader worked extremely well. Round-robin on the wards and HO's with two hacking away with 2H weapons while the mt hunkered down via sword and board...even without a cleric it went extremely well (don't get me wrong, clerics always make life easier and safer!), all things considered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Memna]

<DIV>Think people are missing the point, lol. I'm not saying that "I" dont think we can't tank well, I'm saying "people" in general alot of times dont think we can tank well. I know its true for a fact, even today again it was said that the group needed a "tank", yet they overlooked the paladin once again, ignoring the fact that its a tank too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just saying, do you notice this pattern at all. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Bladezil]

<DIV>I don't think the problem is paladins.. we have our fair share of problems but the fact of the matter is that I enjoy our class. The problem is the perception most people have about our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have yet to encounter anyone complain about my tanking abilities or want a guardian to tank over me (granted that I am a lvl 21 Ogre Paladin in the best equiptment available for my level) - but if I ever DID encounter anyone who oppened their mouths or belittled my skill, I would be darn sure to make them eat their words.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's called standing up for yourselves folks.. learn it, love it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4><FONT color=#ff0033>Valcutio </FONT><FONT color=#ff0033><U>Phoenix</U></FONT> <FONT color=#663333>Wood Elf</FONT> <FONT color=#9933ff>Troubador</FONT> ~ Level20 <EM>One to walk the path of </EM>fame<EM> and </EM>popularity<EM>..</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4><FONT color=#333333>Blade</FONT><FONT color=#006600>zilla</FONT> <FONT color=#333333><U>Killa</U></FONT> the <FONT color=#cccccc>Ogre</FONT> <FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT> ~ Level: 21 ~ <EM>One to walk the </EM>lonely<EM> path of </EM>redemption<EM>..</EM></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Memna]

<DIV>Yup, Bladezilla. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've done that, explained in detail what the paladin skills are, and "why" the paladin makes a good tank even though it may not have as high of a AC and HP, but it usually falls on deaf ears. People are so entwined with the original EQ ideals, you know the logical perception of a tank just being a meatshield with huge AC and a TON of HP. People dont understand that tanks can have other aspects and I think its going to take them a long time to learn it, and some never will. I still do say that paladin's can make just as good of tanks in certain aspects, and make up for the lack of hp and so forth in other ways. But still, peoples perceptions are usually tunnel vision and see only what they want to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tomodac]

I tank just fine, thank you...However, it seems we are designed with a secondary tank role in mind. We have abilities to lend sta and ac to the main tank... we can ward them... we can assist on off-heals in the group... we can protect the healer a bit... we can deflect some aggro from the healer... we can contribute to keeping the MA alive with various knockdowns and stuns... It seems we are quite good at playing a defensive utility role in addition to being quite capable of stepping up to fill in for the MA should they fall.

[greyfarer]

<DIV>[Removed for Content]. go read the guardian threads. read one the other day w/ them complaining that zerkers are better guardians. they carry the same equipment and their abilities produce more hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now itll take YEARS for all those eq1 peeps to sort that one out in their heads! LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also, i got turned down for ANOTHER group... for a lesser lvl guardian. its starting to get annoying. mind you after getting into a group, i get compliments on my tanking.. as im sure all pallys do. its getting INTO the group thats a pain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i think people realize when building a group, that you only need one tank, one/two healer, and ALOT of dps. pallys are kinda left out. zerkers do awesome damage, and monks can too. they get picked ahead of pallys im sure.</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>dunno ive been grouping w/ my guild .. .like allmost allways .. so maybe thats why there isnt any discrimination against classes. i dunno im thinking the dps problem here is that we cant duel wield .. and our 1 handed weapons are just as good as a guards or rouges that can duelwield them. .. in eq1 pally 1 handers were far supierior and could only be used by pally or sk .. because we couldnt duelwield so they increased the dmg on our 1 handed weapons and it about equalled everything up. now im not tryn' to compair or contrast .. but i really think it would be a good idea to impliment that idea here as well. </DIV>

[Memna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> greyfarer wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i think people realize when building a group, that you only need one tank, one/two healer, and ALOT of dps. pallys are kinda left out. zerkers do awesome damage, and monks can too. they get picked ahead of pallys im sure.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know it, i've seen it, and its something that concerns me. Once the ideal cookie cutter group comes around, and it will in time.. people will understand that you only need one tank that has AOE's. </P> <P>Here is the reason why, you have a group of 6 people which is made up of:</P> <P>1 Guardian, 1 Paladin, 1 Scout, 1 Wizard, Healers. </P> <P>In this group the MT will most likely be the Guardian from what I've seen so far on my journey to level 32, because of that fact at that level they should more then likely have more AC then the Paladin. Now if your in combat, the 2 healers will concentrate all healing on the MT until they are out of mana, then if the MT dies the Paladin steps up as the off tank to MT, thing is... the healers spent all their power healing the Guardian MT, now the Paladin which may only have a limited power left because of doing DPS to the mob, will only have enough to heal slightly. Without the backbone of the healers at higher levels, the Paladin's healing capabilities are pretty low, since basically 1 heal equals out to 1 to 2 mob hits which is usually scored on the paladin during the time casting the heal in the first place.</P> <P>Instead, the group could have removed the Paladin and brought in another DPS that does more dmg to shorten the life time of the mob so that in the end less dmg is given to the MT, or bring in another healer that can help heal the MT. From what I've seen the Paladin's ability to give AC to another character isn't all that good, especially at high levels. Might bring it up a touch, but its nothing worthy of having one in the group in the first place, aside from the limited heals and normal tank DPS that the Paladin does in the first place. Another thing, the dmg ward is very.. very short lived at high levels, I give it about 5 seconds max. The "hate" generation of the Paladin through Divine Inspiration, Remption, Blinding Light, etc are only good IF your the MT because of these simple fact, each of them such as Divine Inspiration gives combat offensive bonuses yet also transfers hate from group members to the Paladin, well... you dont want that up when a Guardian is the MT for example, because your not the MT. Redemption is only good if your the MT, Blinding Light is a AOE Taunt + Divine debuff that you really dont want to use because your not the MT, since in short you want the MT to build up the most hate. </P> <P>I dont know, maybe I just feel worthless in a group or something. During the early to late 20's I was still a good MT, now in the 30's its starting to show. I'm just kinda worried whats to come in the 40's...</P> <P>Sorry if I'm ranting a little, but I've been seeing this pattern from people on a daily basis now.</P> <P><BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Memnark on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:14 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Memnark on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

[Theo]

<DIV>join a guild ... ? lol i have lots of friends that i play w/ daily and if ur in a guild and they wont group w/ u or help u w/ quests .. ? then they suck <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /cry .. its the truthe .. i see people get turned down from groups all the time .. mostly because they are horrible at what they do .. aye it sounds real good when u talk about it .. but can u actually do it in game? thats a super point here. i see people get rejected from groups because they are plain newbs .. have no idea **ZOMG** agro is .. things like that .. or they try and run the show and get the whole group killed. other than that i still have yet to see anyone else getting booted or rejected from a group.</DIV>

[Lemli Wak]

<DIV>Creeps - enjoyed your post immensely. I laughed, I cried....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you hit it on the head brother and everyone else should stop whining and take the reins. Lead fellow Paladins, Lead!</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>every time i post on this one i get all fired up. im really not here to argue .. but hopefully to shed some light. we as pally are secondary tanks .. we are .. its just how it is. mayby in the freaking huge technical reality of right now we might be doing ok as tanking .. nobody knows whats gonna heppen when we are all llv 50 or higher .. guards might accell so much by then they wil be the only recamended tank for the job. whos knows its so early in the game right now, as far as people geting into groups ?  i dunno all about that .. i swear i havnt seen that yet on my server even w/ the lvl 25+'s ... just dont see it. <BR>back to original post .. are we really tanking as well as guards? .. i dunno .. i gues we can stand there and take as much dmg as a guard .. AT THESE VERY LOW LVLS .. how ever .. while we are healilng ourselves or wot ever we are doing in defence while tanking we are takeing away from our offence. mean while a guard can sit there all day and swing away while ... its someone elses job to heal them. i dunno i just see that as being a better idealistic tank. their made to stand there and swing away while someone else takes care of them. if we tank we are buffing and healing ourselves just to keep up w. normal guard status and it takes away from the dmg we put out. ok .. so fully self buffed w/ heavy gear and a guard of the same lvl gets hit by the same mob for same dmg i gues we loose about the same amounth of hps. does that really make us a better tank ?? is that really a better role for a pally? i see mobs drop faster if im secondary tank and doing mostly offensive and the few pre-buffs on that tank before pull. than me tanking and no guard</DIV>

[Taienya]

<DIV>I agree 100% with  you creepazoid420.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a paladin in EQ1 for 3 years and in the past spent alot of time and effort speaking up and educating people on the difference between Paladins and Tanks and that is used properly both can tank efficiently.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess we get educate a whole new set of players in EQ2.</DIV>

[Tyt]

<DIV>Well i think your completely missing the point of the original poster. It was not as to wether we are or are not better or equal to Guardians, it was the simple fact that groups would rather sit on their [Removed for Content] for 5min - 1hr waiting for a Guardian because in their minds eye, they are the "tank".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank perfectly well. I hold my own, i cast thru with wards and heals, i aoe taunt and have many methods to keep agro or regain it, shoot the guardian i group with often want's me to tank so he can deal more dmg. Paladin is the worst DPS of all the fighter classes, that's a fact and SOE even say it is on their own site. However our utility and ability to be the tank when needed makes us, at least me, most welcome in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for we are only good now, yes that remains to be seen, however if it turns out to be true, then SOE have lied their [Removed for Content] off by saying that all the fighter classes will be able to tank equally at higher levels. Seeing as nobody knows yet with any reliability what the caps are on ac or resists, then it is hard for anyone to say what our mitigation will be compared to a Guardian at higher lvl's, in my mind it will not be that much difference. if the major factor is going to be the Tower shield v Kite shield, then so be it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Theory:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In one of your earlier post's you said we should be thankfull to wear plate!?! Are you kidding me? In every game i have played, book i have read or description i have observed a Paladin has always been considered a Knight and a Knight has always worn plate.</DIV> <DIV>Now in your last post your turning things around saying mobs die quicker if your DPS and he is tank, than when your tank and no guardian, well that's as abstract as it gets, who was the 6th person? Are you trying to insinuate that you and your 2 hander deal more dmg than a rogue or mage who would take the 6th spot if you was MT? Your saying it's someone elses job to heal the Guardian, well ya but it is also someone elses job to heal you, there is no difference in that whatsoever? Also by saying in healing, buffing taunting whilst tank takes away from our offence, hmmmm yes ... we are designed to take the dmg, not deal it and by healing, buffing, whatever, we are generating agro, which keeps the mobs focused on us for the main part.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhows...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said earlier, until we know what the caps are on AC, what difference a Tower v Kite shield will make at the top levels of the game and what major difference their is between all the tank classes buff wise (which can be off-set by caps) there is no "MT" and their "should" be no preffered tank unless 1 or the other has really poor equipment.</DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>aye true .. deff not sayn we deal my dmg than the rouge .. or anyone else. lol ur so right about us haveing the weakest dps. im just sayn we have to buff and heal and do wot ever extra abilities we were givn as we lvl to be " equal " to guard status. i did re-think alot about everything as this post when on and on and i supose aye .. as mearly a meatshield and nuthing else i supose we are doing as good as a job as the guards running around. i think i lost concept of the original post and starting going into actual roles and where we fit in best. my position on that still stands as us fitting in as secondary while " tank shines in battle " .. just like zoid420 said earlier.<BR>this is takeing in all the concepts of battle .. as in how  fast the mob goes down, and what measures are taken to ensure that ending.</DIV> <DIV>i feel our buffs were givn to us to make the tank a brickwall and help maybe a lil if hes in trouble. i dont feel we were givn those buffs so that we could tank. i just dont. anyway omw home to log in and finnish armor quest # IV</DIV>

[Rowdi]

<DIV>I've only been turned down once in 25 lvls due to a group wanting a guard BUT they also had a pally in group at the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It may have been kinda rude on my part but after I was brushed off I then made an announcement to Antonica 2 that this is not EQ1 and there is more than one tanking class. The best part of this was the mouthy guardian that started spouting off that he had yet to meet a crusader with as much HP and AC as him and that alone  said guards were better tanks. I then pointed out to him that he had just met his first crus with higher stats...90hp and about 107ac more to be exact and told him where he could come to inspect me if he needed to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I know that my gear was what made that difference but I think we may have to work at breaking out of the old EQ1 mold. I have yet to have a group relegate me to offtank but I have defered to an equal lvl guardian and made sure they all knew why..wards, heals, offering of arm. It just makes sense to do this...not to mention it gives me a chance to play dps with my 2H while I'm warding <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are fantastic MTs as well as offtanks and I for one am happy about this. I love my pally!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[greyfarer]

<DIV>groups dont need OFF TANKS. its that simple. if your guardian falls, you shouldnt have pulled... who wants the xp debt. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>raids need off tanks. question is do u want a paladin? i personally would rather have a couple guardians or even better, a zerker that could grab aggro fast. shamans, druids, clerics do a fine job of raid buffing and healing. paladins arent needed there either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im not sure where paladins fit in exactly. but ill say again, that paladin MT fine in groups. we all play our paladins awesome im sure.. its the fact that groups would rather enlist a guardian. and thats why paladins get turned down for groups.. but theyll never get booted from a group. especially after they show  how well tehy can tank.</DIV>

[Rilk]

<DIV>I just went over to the Guardian board.  They have several threads complaining that groups don't want them because the groups think crusaders are better tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my experience some group leaders just have one notion or another stuck in their head about what their "perfect" group should be.  And these notions very from person to person.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a personal note, I find the "optimal" tank is me and a guardian together.  I give him my AC donation buff and some of the others that give my defense to him.  And he is just a brick wall after that.  The XP is the same whether I'm tauting or donating AC, so I'm happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> - Rilkar</DIV>

[Zogl]

I find many people to imcompetent in thier decision which lead to this whole fiasco. IT is kind of fustrating at times because people simply dont consider a paladin a primary tank at all which is **mods 4 teh win!!1!**. A Paladin can tank the same as a guardian if not better. I simply usually just choose who is higher lvl to tank, and if even the paladin can support the guardian better so 2nd tank. I think alot of paladins are stupid and cheap so they only keep around that 2 handed sword of delamascas or whatever which is cheeseball. if yer gonna be the maintank bring a shield and 1h weapon =-p

[Kelli]

<DIV>I play a lvl 22 Guardian and I usually play with a guildmate of mine that is a lvl 22 paladin.  What a great combo!  Granted I usually MT, but since he recieved his ward and heals, we have become an amazing team.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can he tank well? Sure!   When I am not there he IS the MT.  He tells me he seems to have a harder time holding aggro in certain situations....but this is a small issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.....but we are at ourt best when he is Second-Tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I am doing pick up groups.  I now always ask for the pally.  It makes tanking sooooo much easier.  </DIV> <DIV>Remember, people are just figuring out what the classes should do and how the work togther.  I think you will people really start to appreciate the Pally  (particularly the Guardians, Zerkers, and Healers) once they see the difference you can make!</DIV>

[Vai]

<DIV>It's all good that another fighter sub-class come here to vouch for paladins' awesome ability to make them tank twice as good ... but make no mistake, paladins can be and are just as good of tanks as any other fighter would be.</DIV>

[Sam]

<DIV>Memnark your argument sounds pretty rational but from what I have seen so far (only up to 23 eh) the best groups consisted of 2 tanks + 2 healers + dps.  Seems to me there is enough reason to usually want two tanks for the same reason you want two healers, one might be distracted or lagging or stunned or spread too thin etc. etc.  I'm thinking an enchanter might replace a second tank but good enchanters are rare.  As a paladin, I try to conserve power away from doing damage and more into assist healing in a group too which means often when I'm the secondary tank I still have power and a zero power lay on hands in reserve to boot when everyone else is petered out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about those really hardcore mobs that can nearly one or two shot your tank too?  The hp damage share assist buff on a paladin is great then because we can eat some of the MT damage and then heal ourselves of it too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To me the safety and survivability of a group with 2 tank + 2 healers > killing a little faster with an extra squishy dpser to protect.  Especially when you are deep in the dungeon where the adds come fast and fierce and you are actually moving through the dungeon to complete a goal and not spawn camping (the way eq2 should be played :p)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think my ideal group would be 2 different class healer, 2 tank, scout, and enchanter.  I'll trade damage for survivability without hesisitation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Course if I could find a regular group of 6 wizards I'd like to see how a good aoe/dd/root fest works in EQ2 eheheh.</DIV>

[_Baal_]

<DIV>sounds like you paladins dont know your place. let the guardians tank, you can help them with your support spells more than they can swatting at it with a pointy stick. sure you might beable to fill the MT role, but if there is a guadian give it to him cuz thats his job and that all they are good for. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i find it funny that qeynos(sonyeq =p) shuns you guys and freeport loves their shadowknights. hey its not too late to reroll =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jerik_EQ2]

My experience has been a bit different. There are four of us (RL friends) that group together regularly. Me (Paladin), Templar, Wizard, Summoner. We do pretty much everything as a 4-man group. At 25 we were able to kill lvl 30^ grp mobs in Varsoon and had a great time doing it. By 26 we did both the Zek and EL access quests. Finished the EL boat ride last night, infact.Never had a problem with only one tank (me) and one healer.I sometimes wish we had a scout to round off the group, but it hasn't been missed as an "essential".Not sure why everyone insists on a second tank or healer. We just havent seen the need.

[LordBane20]

<DIV>It's not that Paladins don't know thier place, they do just fine being the MT in a group. My regular group wouldn't have it any other way. The problem stems from the bad paladins out there. The people that don't understand what being the MT of a group means. They sacrifice thier defencive capability by using a two handed weapon "cause it does more dammage," and not using a shield and knights stance. This causes the healer(s) to have to work much harder at keeping the paladin alive, and any little misshap could easily turn things far worse.</DIV>

[Kryn]

I am having no problems as a Paladin on Ant.Bayle.I get groups very quickly, and if there is a Guardian I go secondary tank, then I let the group know what I'm doing to augment the MT, pull out my 2-hander and go to town. If I'm in a group and there is no Guardian, I'll step up to the plate, go knights stance, pull out my shield and show them how it's done <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Seriously though, all you have to do is explain the skill set to people and they they're all "Ooooh! I didn't know Pallys could do *that*!" I love being MT, I also love being ST, and spending my time making sure the healers keep out of trouble.I wouldn't expect to be MT in a group with a Guardian... I can't out taunt them, so they are the choice for keeping agro. We are lucky in that we have two possible roles. At least in my experience with a Pally to level 24. One of the great things about EQ2 is that you can put together some wierd group configurations, and it still works well. Not EQ's "we *need* a warrior, cleric, enchanter..." I was in a group in Snye the other day, and a Bezerker wanted to try tanking (I was MT at the time), so I figured "why not". He did good! So we swapped it out though the evening to mix things up. About the only warrior class I wouldn't like to tank is the monk types, but then that's so far outside the norm.Fight the good fight!-Ryak-Dark Elf Paladin-Antonia Bayle

[Jerik_EQ2]

Actually, there is a good justification for having the Paladin be the MT and the guardian doing backup. It's the simple fact that they CAN out taunt us.As main tank I have no problem maintaining aggro. But if for some reason I went down, it might be easier for a Guardian to step in and regain aggro from the healer/dps than it would be for me. Because of our damage output, we are pretty far down on the hate list if we are playing backup... and a single ae taunt is not going to get all the mobs off the other players an on to us.Not saying it HAS to be that way. Just saying that it pays to think out of the box and consider other ways.

[Grimme]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krynos wrote:<BR><BR>About the only warrior class I wouldn't like to tank is the monk types, but then that's so far outside the norm.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I saw a level 22 monk tanking yesterday, he did just fine. Think Jackie Chan. But with Mend.<BR>

[Bexylady]

<DIV>I know that most people's comments are saying their problems begin at the 30+ or so levels.  But here's my little bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have two group combos that I've fallen into a pretty regular pattern when I'm not soloing or duoing with my shammy bf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank : Guardian (higher lvl than me)</DIV> <DIV>Me</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Ranjer (omg don't let him die! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV>Last position  varies but my favorite so far is bard.  Gimme bard lovin' any day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OR:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank: me</DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Druid</DIV> <DIV>Any other dps (but a chanter would be nice and so would bard )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I'm tanking I generally have next-to-no agro issues and my healers never run out of power unless something REALLY bad happens (hmm holly windstalker at lvl 18 and no slower lol).  Knights Stance, Redemption, Blessed Weapon, Vigor of Trust... soooo many choices.  With a druid and mystic I'll admit I use either KS/VoT or KS/Redemption.  Redemption is fantastic on quest mobs that someone *else* has to agro.  (Nothing funnier than the last npc for the betrayal quest talking to your friend at one point, then without warning, jumps you!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When my friend is tanking I throw all the supportive goodies on.  One benefit of Ancestral Pledge and DoF and all those other short term supports is when/if the MT drops who do the mobs hate?  ME.  Oh my god do they hate me.  Happily, charge probably helps and my guardian friend can hold agro while I laugh myself into insensibility watching the zombies or whatever fall on their butts.  I can do all my wonderful agro generating attacks or whatever, so long as I don't taunt.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even when I'm *not* MT, I still use redemption.  Throw that on the main healer, let the tank drop and see who it hates.  Again, me.  Well ok, I lied, sometimes it hates the ranjer, but who can blame him? ... I mean... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That ranjer has particularly high damage so I give credit to the tank for keeping agro off of him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, we are perfectly good MTs, which is something that SOE over and over again has reiterated.  Fighters are all capable, healers are all... well you get my point.  I know we all know we can tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, what we're seeing is part throwback from EQ 1, and part stubbornness.  Although, these people who wouldn't use a pally as a MT in 6 man groups in EQ 1 must not have gotten to the higher end <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  The week before EQ 2 came out I recall main healing (as a druid thank you very much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) a paladin crawling through some of the very newest of the content!  Gear makes a huge difference, and so does being able to play your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The one thing I have *not* seen work well is two paladins in a group.  We get all kinds of supports and wards and what not, sounds perfect right?  Maybe the one I grouped with just didn't have a good solid pattern down, but I had to hold back to keep agro off of me.  He was two lvls higher.  It came down to when we pulled group mobs, I was AoE tank.  Single mobs, I could manage to keep agro off me, but not in groups.   Also, our defensive/healing etc buffs don't stack.  You can't throw a ward on someone until their fading ward (which at that point is no longer blocking damage) is completely gone.  Unless of course you have the adept and he doesn't or whatever.  Ancient Pledge, etc.  Anything that you could cast on yourself will not stack with the other pally.  Rather obvious isn't it?  So what does that leave us for our "make the tank shine" buffs?  Offering of Armorment, occasional ward, occasional heal.  We just pretty much become shiny plate wearing dps at that point.  Plus, our ward will get agro.  I don't know if Offering of Armorment does or not, but sometimes it seemed like it did.  The only really good thing was watching different charges, the mobs spent almost all the fight on their butts.  Just in case you didn't know, the amount of time it takes for charge to "wear off" a mob is almost as long as the refresh.  He would knock it down, and by the time I could, it would be back up again, and his charge was refreshed. I'm not going to say if I think this is a good or bad thing, because that's purely off-topic opinion.  I just wanted to say I did *not* like backing up another pally, and during the AoE fights, I'm sure he ran into some of the same troubles with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hawkt]

<DIV>If I had a person that was in my group seriously suggesting we sit and wait for a certain type of tank, when there was another type available on the spot, I'd boot them, or if I was in the minority leave the group and start looking for another one with less stupid people.</DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>Its not about us not knowing our place, its the community not knowing-the game is still newish and alot of EQ1 players are still trying to get their head round the fact there are now lots of different ways to do things.  Sure if guardian is in group then have them tank if gear is better or as good as yours, we make great secondary tanks.  But if there isnt one i can thing of no real situation where the pally doesnt have what it takes to MT. </DIV>

[Derc]

<DIV>Up to lvl 42 Erudite Pld. Agro untill lvl 40-42 hasnt been a problem ( Im kinda screwed at this lvl with a grey ae taunt and low blue single taunt - Cuz they messed up and added 2 taunts at lower lvl but didnt put one in around this lvl) for Nms we kill group ^ ^ Orange and lower pretty easy and can kill some Red group ^ ^  So Pld can tank NMS well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There seems to be something weird with agro tho...If someone attacks a mob in the begining of the fight before you taunt or Ae taunt it can become extremly hard to get agro...also If someone pulls agro its also hard to get it back often.. For pulling id suggest puller Sight agros so the mobs arent engaged till you voke first ( this also allows casters to med more) and for Red or Hard Orange nms  have Pld pull</DIV>

[Bladezil]

<DIV>Baal, immedietly go back to refuge island.. where you belong. I have never had my tanking pulled into question and have grouped with MANY people who have called me their best tank ever. Paladins are not backseat to Guardians.. ever. The only reason a guardian should ever tank over a paladin is because the paladin doesn't know how to play their class. Between heals, wards, group buffs, nukes and good old fasioned taunts.. there is no reason a guardian should out taunt a paladin. Period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4>- <FONT color=#333333>Blade</FONT><FONT color=#009900>zilla</FONT> <U>Killa</U> - The Absolute <EM>Sexiest</EM> <FONT color=#333366>Ogre</FONT> <FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT> Ever.. One to Walk the Lonely Path of Redemption.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4>- <FONT color=#ccffcc><U>Valcutio</U></FONT> <FONT color=#ff0033>Phoenix</FONT> <FONT color=#ccffcc>- The Absolute <EM>Sexiest</EM> </FONT><FONT color=#663300>Wood Elf</FONT> <FONT color=#9999ff>Troubador</FONT> <FONT color=#ccffcc>Ever.. One to Walk the Famed Path of Popularity, Grandeur.. and all that other happy go lucky spoony bard stuff.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV>

[ECDMupp]

<P>Redemption is not solely a MT skill. As ST, Redemption cast on all the DPS will take hate away from them and transfer it to the pally - AKA: ST! where do you want the mobs the MT loses aggro? of course you don't want to hate the mobs away from the MT, but if he does lose them, it's better to lose them to a pally than a paper mache caster. to answer the original poster, pallies can MT with the best of them. I have a buddy with a 27 zerker and throgh our progression I have about the same HP and AC he does at the same level and we both have awesome equipment, but HE is the MT because i can give him my AC and Sta, heal and ward HIM and make sure IF he loses hate it wil be to ME and not the casters.</P><p>Message Edited by ECDMuppet on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:53 AM</span>

[Gilasil]

I've also noticed the tendency for the puller to get a disproportionate amount of aggro at lower levels too. Nothing that can't be overcome with a little taunting (at least at my level 20) but more then it's share.Back to the original thread. I don't often see that problem but I have seen it. Unfortunately, it was in a bunch of friends from EQ1, some of whom were in beta. The one guardian amongst them wasn't on and they didn't want to do anything. They just took it for granted that a MT HAD to be a guardian and nothing else. So much for all that hype before release that any fighter type can tank as well as any other fighter type.Oh, and they wanted two healers if possible.Since they're friends I can't just walk away from them, but they need some education. I've MTed all over the place with pick up groups and done fine, but not with friends from EQ1 who just can't get it out of their heads that there is one ideal class for each role and nobody else can do it. Tonight if they're again sitting it out because the guardian didn't log on I'm getting a pick up group for someplace they were afraid to go and giving them a blow by blow. (Of course this will only work if it doesn't end in disaster.)If our role is to buff the MT then we're pretty mismatched to that role. Someone who never gets aggro doesn't need to wear plate. Robes would do just fine. If we're allowed to wear armor as heavy as a guardian's then we BETTER be intended to be TANK at times.Their combat system WOULD have a place for a secondary tank IF there is a need to TANK other mobs. For example adds for which the MT can't get aggro. Also, a well coordinated group which is tank heavy could in theory "switch off" aggro. Let one guy tank the mob until his health is down to about half, then another tank takes over. People would have to be pretty well coordinated and very familiar with each other's abilities to generate hate. It would never work in a pick up group.This kind of mentality will eventually go away but it could take awhile. With really hardcore EQ1 types I could see it taking months and that's if SoE doesn't do anything to screw things up -- such as having genuine ways in which guardians ARE better tanks.

[RioR]

<DIV>Simple fact, the archetype system concept says that all sublasses of an archetype <STRONG>will </STRONG>be able to fill an equal role in a group. This was beat into us by SOE for over a year. The main role of a fighter in a group is to be the tank. So all of us under the fighter archetype should be able to tank equally. If this is not happening then SOE has failed in their execution of the archetype system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not EQlive. This is an all new game. The guardian (warrior) should not be the best tank. Old EQ players need to be taught that. They are setting up groups based off of an old game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope very soon SOE hashes out this tanking problem (if there is a problem) and that all fighters are able to be MT. </DIV>

[slyva]

<DIV>Well put bladezilla! most guardians on neriak are the worst tanks ive ever seen. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>simply because they do not know how to tank! Tanking is an art, not a class! ive </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>grouped w several guardians, and wouldnt you know it, for some reason even if i </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dont taunt i get the argo. so i usually wind up casting redemption on the gardian </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and playing mt and make it wo a scratch while tanking blue double arrows. My </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>point is most peeps dont realize that tanking is a skill. your CLASS is only the </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>tools that you use to get the job done!</DIV>

[Jw]

Might as well throw in my 2 cents. I havent really had problems getting into groups, and I am MT 50% of the time. All I know is that most other classes don't seem to know how Paladins can buff another MT (as well as other buffers/debuffers who don't get recognition...). When I am playin backup tank, it is funny for me to watch a battle go smoothly until I run out of power, then the MT & Healer start to freak out cause the MT is takin way more damage than before. If you all want to give Paladins a good name, make sure you are ALWAYS shielding the MT. I can't count the number of times I have had to coerce another Paladin into casting defensive spells on me after my power runs out... That should never have to happen.I have also noticed that I seem to get hit more than other fighter classes, all stats equal. I don't know jack about Guardians or Berserkers but I suspect they have a dodge ability or something that we don't. Either way, if you don't realize that another fighter with equal AC, Health, etc... with you, the Paladin, buffing/armoring him/her is a way better tank then you buffing yourself with the Guardian behind you, you have no business being a Paladin. Personally, I prefer being backup tank. I like the diversity of the role, and it is less stress on me. In the spirit of "You might be a redneck"...If your group has ever died, and you still had 1/2 power... you should not be a Paladin.If you are over lev 20 and you don't have Adept I Demo of Faith... you should not be a Paladin.All kidding aside, Paladins RULE!! WOOT!

[CrimsonValerian]

<DIV>main tank or supporting tank it doesnt matter, what should shine through is the paladin's versatility, we CAN do it all, we can main tank, support tank, and solo pretty well.  What should be first on the mind's of all the paladins is keeping the GROUP alive regardless of the status of main tank, let go of your ego.  If a guardian can keep aggro and i can keep him buffed and healed thats less work for the templars, less stress, and less downtime.  A well working group should put aside silly petty differences such as "i'm the better tank because...."  Your versatility and desire to help the group succeed should outweigh all else, show the group you're with that you CAN do it all if the need arises, everyone in the group appreciates the protectors of the party.</DIV>

[Syrano]

No, I'm not a Paladin. But I play with one regularly. He is our guilds primary tank. He main tanks everything. Never had an issue. Need proof? Four of us took on Lord Zaavan, 28th Swashy, 25th Templar, 26th Enchanter, and a 27th Paladin. That makes Zaavan an orange double overcon Group x2 (well I consider Zaavan a group x1 personally, he's tougher than most double overcons, but there's no way he needs two groups).Here's the screenies to prove it:<img width="200" height="100" src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/233/856.jpg">The rest of the battle can be seen <a href="http://catharos.eq2guilds.org/image_gallery.vm?categoryId=18200" target=_blank>here</a>.

[rsquared]

<DIV>I am new to the role of a Paladin and was wondering what's the best setup for my Hot Keys?  There are so many options that I'm not sure what I need and what I don't?  Any suggestions?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Roland, lvl 20 Barbarian Paladin</DIV>

[Keet]

<DIV>coming from a 25 zerker standpoint, I love pallys.  I have a few in our guild that I group with regularly and they can make or break a tough fight.  I actually tanked a ^^ white, ^^ blue and ^^ green at the same time last night with no healer....how?  Pally stepped back and started throwing wards and heals and we made it out no problem (22 pally at that).  I generally have about 200AC more than most pallies my level as I keep yellow/oj gear and use a shield when MT.  People that dont let pallies tank are just being silly or they have had bad players in the past that havent kept their gear up or didnt know how to play the class.</DIV> <DIV>my view of the situation is: pally MT, zerk/guard offtank ....good MT, good offtank.</DIV> <DIV>                                           zer k/guard MT, pally offtank ... awesome MT, good offtank and a backup healer to boot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pallies can tank just fine imho, but they shine in that they can turn a good tank into an awesome tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problem letting a pally be MT if he has the goods on me in AC or HPs or level, but I feel alot safer taking hits with a good pally standing next to me.</DIV>

[ectoprata]

<DIV> I don't know if it's my level (31) or beeing a paladin, but I can't seem to find any groups for over 5 hours of searching. I check Enchanted lands & Runnyeye to Thundering Steppes & Ruins of Varsoon. No luck finding a group, and when I do find one, it isn't a good one. I will rarely get one that will gain great xp, majority of them end up in low xp or debt.</DIV>

[ectoprata]

<DIV>Oops, wrong button. Rooarrr. Anyways, to continue: I have top armor and accessories to boost my AC, along with orange con shields and weapons to also add onto AC/stats. Still doesn't help getting groups, which would be helpful in getting better armor and weapons, but since I don't get good enough groups, I have to buy my spells, weapons and accessorries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I asked around if Zek would be better for grouping, but they said it has a lower amount of people than EL, which leads back to the other places where I get no groups. If I had a group for 1/2 the time I was online, I would be atleast level 40 by now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If anyone has any tips on where to go for possible good hunting groups let me know. Right now, i'm just wasting time playing online. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I love the Paladin class so much, but at times I kinda wish I wasn't one...</DIV>