2H Weps..Just Plain Selfish?

[kerra]

<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><SPAN>OK as a Crusader (14) I find it so very enjoyable to use a two handed weapon either solo or in a group. My job as “tank” is to hold the agro and help the group…. now by using a two handed weapon the cleric has to heal me more since I do not have the extra 25 AC of a shield, so this is a negative impact on the group. Therefore, would you guys consider using a two handed weapon a selfish act because I want to do damage like the big boys or just my choice in weapon. </SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Btw, The stun feat (I forget the name but it is only useable with a shield) against a caster works great and buys some time for extra hits. </SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>I look forward to hear you opinions. </SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P></FONT><FONT color=#000000><SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[Kryn]

If you are the groups main tank then you should be using a 1 hander and a shield, if you are a back up tank, or JAMS (just another meat shield) adding to the damage output of the group, feel free to use a 2 hander.

[mighte]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I know this game is Completely different than the first everquest.  However, as a Paladin in EQ 1 one of the advantages we had was being able to stun mobs via our spells.  If shields are the only way to stun a mob then that is a definate advantage.  Stun = mob not being able to hit.  If they cannot hit even for 1 round that can be the difference between you dieing or the healer getting their heal off.</FONT></DIV>

[Tyrusstorm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krynos wrote:<BR>If you are the groups main tank then you should be using a 1 hander and a shield, if you are a back up tank, or JAMS (just another meat shield) adding to the damage output of the group, feel free to use a 2 hander.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I agree. When I am duoing with my wife's druid I 1hand / shield. If I am the backup tank I twohander

[Hawkt]

<DIV> <DIV>Okay how much is that extra AC 25 doing for you?    If that 25 ac means your getting hit for 10% less per fight, but with the 2 handed sword your doing 20% more damage per fight, I' know what I'd want to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, perhaps some empirical evidence would help us decide. Why don't you run a log, and then come back to us with some numbers?</DIV></DIV>

[RioR]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hawktel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Okay how much is that extra AC 25 doing for you?    If that 25 ac means your getting hit for 10% less per fight, but with the 2 handed sword your doing 20% more damage per fight, I' know what I'd want to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, perhaps some empirical evidence would help us decide. Why don't you run a log, and then come back to us with some numbers?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Umm...my shield's AC is 42.

[Prog]

<blockquote><hr>Hawktel wrote:<DIV><DIV>Okay how much is that extra AC 25 doing for you? If that 25 ac means your getting hit for 10% less per fight, but with the 2 handed sword your doing 20% more damage per fight, I' know what I'd want to do.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So, perhaps some empirical evidence would help us decide. Why don't you run a log, and then come back to us with some numbers?</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Ok, I don't think that's the right way to analyze this. In a group setting, you need to look at how much damage the 2 hander is adding to the entire group's damage, versus how much tankability the shield is adding to the whole group.First, the 2 hander: If you've got any other damage dealing class in the group, the 2 hander isn't adding 10-20%, it's adding more like 5-10%. Say that's a bruiser, sorceror, or other high DPS class, or multiple damage dealers, and your DPS compared to the group DPS starts to shrink, so the relative benefit of the 2 hander shrinks even more. If you're doing 25% of the group's DPS, and switching to a 2 hander increases your dps by 20%, you're only increasing the group DPS by 5%.On the other hand, the sheild doesn't take into account other group members, because if you're doing your job as main tank, then nothing is hitting anyone else but you. So you get the "full" benefit of the shield instead of sharing it with your group. If you're the only one taking damage, increasing your DPS is basically giving the whole group the same increase in AC.So, in any group with another damage dealer, you're increasing the total stats of the group more with sword-n-board than with a 2 hander. About the only time I'd use a 2 hander in a group would be if I was duoing with a priest.Now there may be an exception to that rule. If for some reason you're fight mobs that are so easy that your healer is nuking in between heals with the sheild, switch to 2 hander just to speed it up so you can move on to real mobs. Against easy mobs, the simple way to test which to use is this: equip the 2 hander. If the healer is using more power to heal you than the DPS classes are to get everything dead, switch back to sheild. If the healer starts nuking, switch back to 2 hander.But generally, you want to fight mobs that are as tough as you can handle with relative safety, for better XP. And a sheild means you can handle just a little bit tougher of an encounter than if you didn't have one. Leave the damage dealing to the classes that are specialized at it.As an off tank, always use a 2 hander, maybe. I'm not sure if intervening on the main tank takes the sheild (and wards for that matter) into account or not. But as I see it, there's two ways to play the non-main tank as a paladin. You can use intervene, wards, the AC transfer, heals, and the occasional interrupt/stun to increase the defensive capability of the main tank -- perhaps even taunting hard to make sure you're number two on the list should the main tank drop. Or you can use all the divine nukes and extra attacks at your disposal to maximize your own abilities as a damage dealer. Obviously, you'd use a sheild in the defensive role and a 2 hander in the offensive role. It's both the beauty and the curse of a class as versatile as the paladin... you're capable of fitting into several roles, but you have to have the equipment for all of them.

[kerra]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>Wow...five stars from me. Now that was a reply, it was well said and well thought out and why I posed this question to the forum. With that said, another reason I brought this little tidbit into the forum was a "discussion" I and another seasoned player had while we in-group hunting rune casters. I was the primary tank and held the </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>agro at all times, his debate was since I was the PMS (primary meat shield) that I should only ever use sword and board. I was switching back and forth from 1h to 2h through out the entire night depending on the size and level of the encounters. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>The reason why I was switching back and forth was that I was noticing the frequency that in which was gaining parry</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>skill using 2h was far greater than when I was 1h. I personally think this is a significant find because when I then switched back to sword and board I seemed to be even more effective in dodging and parrying than in prior occasions.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>I am currently compiling everything that I have found and if you guys have any interest let me know. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV>

[Tomodac]

I'm currently using 'Mariner's Defense', a 55 AC shield quested in freeport around L12 (the 55 AC bonus is @ L17 though). Between the sizable AC bonus, the pre-requisite to our ability to bash/stun and the innate chance the developers have given shield to block attacks completely it really hasn't been a terribly difficult decision for me. Certainly when assigned with primarily taking damage the sword & shield is the way to go.A couple question on mechanics... 1. Do 2-Handed weapons receive more of a damage bonus from strength than 1-Handed waepons? 2. Do combat skills/arts have a damage variance associated with the equipped weapon? (I suspect some do, some don't) 3. Can spells be interrupted with our bash/stun attack? 4. Can non-spell skills be interrupted with out bash/stun attack?If spells can be interrupted, then clearly the 2-Hander isn't the wisest choice when fighting casters. If non-spell skills can also be interrupted, then it's potentially useful at all times not just for keeping an opponent stunned, but for interrupting their skilled attacks. If weapons have no impact on skill damage (aside from something like wild swing, perhaps) then the difference between a 1H and 2H weapon seems to be somewhat negligible as much of your damage will be coming from combat skills.

[Kriterian]

<DIV>I got mine from a little easy quest in Baubleshire and it's 55 AC. Also it's not just the ac or stats that is important, so much so as the ability to block. Sometimes I have to scroll back the chat window to make sure I still have aggro and I see that I've just been blocking everything.</DIV>

[Gurl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hawktel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Okay how much is that extra AC 25 doing for you?    If that 25 ac means your getting hit for 10% less per fight, but with the 2 handed sword your doing 20% more damage per fight, I' know what I'd want to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, perhaps some empirical evidence would help us decide. Why don't you run a log, and then come back to us with some numbers?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I carry both and typically do 1h/sheld - 2-h for solo.  However, in DAOC I could put a wepon on the hotkey bar and switch between weps (Pole arm or sword&board).  I will see if there is a way to hot key/macro this.  This will make you  a more flexable at tanking.

[Hawkt]

<DIV>Guys it doesn't matter what AC the shield gives you.   What matters is the effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does the Shield let you avoid more hits?</DIV> <DIV>Does it let you block more hits?</DIV> <DIV>What percentage of less damage do you take with having that shield?</DIV> <DIV>Some people mentioned that some of the combat arts using the Shield are neat. Whats the effects?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until we know things like this, trying to say "Ohh I should have a 2hander when I'm not tanking", or "I need the Sword and Board when tanking" is just speculation, and assumption.</DIV>

[DarganDivine]

<DIV>This is why i use a 2 hander...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. B/C there is more DPS and DPS owns not only for agro but for just kicking butt.</DIV> <DIV>2. Not sure if mobs riposte in this game yet, but the in EQ1 riposte could add up way quick if you are using a quick weapon.</DIV> <DIV>3. B/c it is the weapon it gives you when you do your paladin quest, chances are the one that Sony gives you is the recommended one</DIV> <DIV>4. B/C its what i want to use, if youhave a preference on what you think is cool, then use that, in all reality, it is prolly way too close to make a difference so go with what you like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dekan]

Just to clear up a misunderstanding, shields dont actually add to your total AC. AC on a shield is merely the "value" of it versus other shields. It's a small distinction, but sometimes becomes important.

[Fleaba]

<DIV>Just a comment. In most situations when I've been tanking. If I die...they all die. I have to stay alive and take as much punishment as possible. Always a shield when I'm tanking...2 hander when solo. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 18 crusader</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Logar</DIV>

[MadGam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DarganDivine wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is why i use a 2 hander...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. B/C there is more DPS and DPS owns not only for agro but for just kicking butt.</DIV> <DIV>2. Not sure if mobs riposte in this game yet, but the in EQ1 riposte could add up way quick if you are using a quick weapon.</DIV> <DIV>3. B/c it is the weapon it gives you when you do your paladin quest, chances are the one that Sony gives you is the recommended one</DIV> <DIV>4. B/C its what i want to use, if youhave a preference on what you think is cool, then use that, in all reality, it is prolly way too close to make a difference so go with what you like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Number 4 makes me think using a 2H is more viable but until i see a parsing that says differently Ill be whoring my 2H. I still have my shield and 1H just in case I see some evidence. Sheild rating ok if it doesnt add to your AC what do these numbers mean? Can I mitigate more? Will I block more? What exactly is this number reprisenting.

[Fugaci]

<DIV>I got a two hander for my cleric last night that was too good to pass up.  But my overall AC did change when equiping or not equiping my sheild.</DIV>

[Auron]

<DIV>man guys, im only 28 and cant use tower shields ( man i wish we could ) but there are some mean kite and round shields out there that add almost as much ac as a second BP.  A tank is never gona dps enough to make a huge impact on a battle and bashing with a shield is a great way to stun and help hold aggro.  Now i found a nasty 2hs in CoB last night with over 100 dmg and 2sec delay but if i am groups main tank im equiping that shield on.  Let the dps classes worry about doing the damage and let the tank classes worry about keeping the mobs on em and keeping everyone else alive.</DIV>

[Auron]

<DIV>oh and just to clear this up, shield add to your total ac, watch your ac and take your shield on and off.</DIV>

[creepazoid4]

<DIV>Hey all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I group with a small group of friends frequently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 Ranger - dps</DIV> <DIV>1 Sorcerer - dps</DIV> <DIV>1 Mystic - healing</DIV> <DIV>and myself Crusader</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We seem to kill stuff faster and more efficiently when I use my  2H rather than my 1hs and Shield(when I say efficiently I mean for example if I had been using my 1hs and Shield by the time we are done killing one mob my shield stun still hasn't refreshed therefore rendering it usless to me for a few seconds).  Also, Since the mystic Ward can stack with my own Ward I think that pretty much makes up for not having a shield.  HO's can also play an important role in killing mobs faster,  not only are they fun to use but they also make you save mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing to consider is the fact that Brawlers can tank as well as Fighters.  They don't tank well because of their high AC,  its because of their agility.  At this point in the game I wouldn't worry about whether one should use a 1h + Shield or 2hs in concerns of tanking.  I believe it will all come into play once you get into the High End Game raiding situations where it is Vital.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bloads - 18 crusader</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[creepazoid4]

<DIV>sorry double post.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by creepazoid420 on <span class=date_text>11-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:07 PM</span>

[Tyt]

<DIV>Ancient Kite Shield : AC 176 (180 @ level 24) 2 Int 6 Wis 12 Health 17 Power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC without shield : 785</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC with Shield : 961</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>961 - 785 = 176 = AC on shield is in total added to your AC.</DIV>

[creepazoid4]

<DIV>Nice,  I want that shield <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Darki]

<blockquote><hr>Tytch wrote:<DIV>Ancient Kite Shield : AC 176 (180 @ level 24) 2 Int 6 Wis 12 Health 17 Power.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>AC without shield : 785</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>AC with Shield : 961</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>961 - 785 = 176 = AC on shield is in total added to your AC.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Nice, where did you get it? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And what weapon are you using to go along with it?The last kite shield I got was the strapped leather defender, which is extremely grey at level 23... best 1h I have is the Doom Stick from the gnome Cog Burn's(Invader Zim's voice BTW <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) quest in the Wailing Caves....

[Tyt]

<DIV>Dropped from the Captain in Stormhold.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using forged blackened alloy longsword when i have shield equiped. Can't seem to find a good weapon or quest for one anywhere, have started Ghoulbane quest but that may be some way off and as prices are still a little crazy no intentions of buying anything at this time, rather wait for crafters to level up.</DIV>

[thehunterhunt]

<DIV>I picked up the 2H sword Soulreaver from a named in Vermin's Snye. Wow, what a sword!</DIV>

[Jasmeral]

<DIV>Can't wait to be able to use my own Soulreaver... got it at 15... have a little more to go before I can use it, 16 now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[creepazoid4]

<DIV>Woot,  got my Ancient Kite Shield last night in SH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I match with my Vanguard.</DIV>

[_Custos_]

<DIV>As a level 19 Crusader, I was grouped with an equivilently leveled cleric. I found that we were better off when I was using my 2-hander than my shield and 1-hander (all over which were at or above my level).  As the cleric had little to add to the offesive side of the battle, we both used less mana and got the fight over with faster when I used my 2-hander. The stun is just too short of an affect to be of much use, in my book.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it would be different if I had others in my group that dealt damage too, then I could see using the shield to increase my defensive ability and decrease the amount of damage being done to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bladezil]

<DIV>First person in one of my groups to call me selfish cause I use a 2h weapon is gonna get a ban list a mile long from groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4><FONT color=#ff0033>Valcutio </FONT><FONT color=#ff0033><U>Phoenix</U></FONT> <FONT color=#663333>Wood Elf</FONT> <FONT color=#9933ff>Troubador</FONT> ~ Level20 <EM>One to walk the path of </EM>fame<EM> and </EM>popularity<EM>..</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=4><FONT color=#333333>Blade</FONT><FONT color=#006600>zilla</FONT> <FONT color=#333333><U>Killa</U></FONT> the <FONT color=#cccccc>Ogre</FONT> <FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT> ~ Level: 21 ~ <EM>One to walk the </EM>lonely<EM> path of </EM>redemption<EM>..</EM></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Darki]

<blockquote><hr>Tytch wrote:<DIV>Dropped from the Captain in Stormhold.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Using forged blackened alloy longsword when i have shield equiped. Can't seem to find a good weapon or quest for one anywhere, have started Ghoulbane quest but that may be some way off and as prices are still a little crazy no intentions of buying anything at this time, rather wait for crafters to level up.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Thanks, got me one last night! Using a Carbonite Morning Star with it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kerra]

<DIV>Hey guys lots of good stuff here! I have been the main tank in the same group now since about level 13 (22 now) when I found my best friend <EM><FONT color=#ffff00>Soulreaver</FONT> </EM><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/item.vm?itemId=3303" target=_blank><EM>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/item.vm?itemId=3303</EM></A><EM> </EM> I have been keeping the party alive just fine. One of the things that we all know is damage builds up hate along with our taunts and shouts so pick you weapon, use your spells, and build the hate. 1h or 2h IMO does not matter after all the buffs you get from your party you just keep the mobs off them and it will all work out in the end. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>22 Kerra Paladin Big Kitty (nickname)</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone </DIV>

[Theo]

<DIV>i think alot of us use both 1 handers and 2 handers and carrie them around w/ us everywhere we go</DIV>

[Auron]

<DIV>lol my shield now has 300+ ac and will be 400 + and level 35, that is just to much ac to pass  up on just for a little extra dps in a fight. I mean that is equivalent to more than my bp in ac.</DIV>

[ysucsismaj]

<DIV>What weapon is this Auronnj and refresh my memory on CoB please?</DIV>

[Renn]

It really depends on how good the rest of your gear is and how good your healers are.If you have 2 healers, using a 2 hander is probably your best bet against most mobs. You've already got double healing, which means 1 less dps, so might as well try to up yours as much as possible unless they are having power issues.When I grouped with my friends and am MTing I use my 2 handed for anything white^^ or lower, and put on my 1 hander + shield for anything higher. Our only healer is a Templar 1 level lower than me (27) and she never has power issues when I'm tanking with my 2 hander on white or below mobs. Of course as I said, if you're fighting higher than that, your job is to completely minimize damage, which means shield and Knight's Stance.

[Gilasil]

If you want to use a 2-hander in a group just discuss it with your healer. Last time that came up in a group I was in the healer had no problem with the slightly extra healing needed for a 2-hander (and it WAS only slightly extra) and the better aggro control it gave more then made up for it.SoE obviously made it so that 1-hand and 2-hand approaches were both viable. Both have advantages and both have drawbacks (yes they do). People should be given enough leeway to make their own judgements about what's right for them. That fact that there IS a controversy is an indication of good game design. As long as it stays civil anyway.I start to get pretty miffed when I people saying words to the effect "DO IT MY WAY OR YOU'RE A SELFISH IDIOT." It's just as likely those people don't know the whole story.So if you want to use a 2-hander in a group in which you are MT, just talk it over with your healer.

[LadyLesl]

I haven't had a problem tanking with either. I keep Knight's Stance on in groups, and my 2-hander is the best weapon I have by far atm, so I usually use it. However, I solo a lot as well, so I can see an argument for using the 1hander/shield approach in a group. I group with a druid quite regularly and have had no complaints from her on the healing rquired with a 2 hander; she says she really doesn't notice a healing difference. I'm only level 21 though, so that may change as time goes on.

[Lawman]

<DIV>At 26 I have Berik, Sword of Thunder,  and a Pristine Forged Steel Great Sword.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use a Darkpriest Round Shield with the 1H</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being a 2H kinda pally for years, Im finding the 1H/Shield combo much more beneficial because of the AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah, its nice to see 50-60-70-80 hits... but to see 20-30-40, quicker and get a Whole Lot less damage inflicted upon you is pretty darn nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would have sold the PFSGS but they made it attuned *rolls eyes*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> -Law</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>