SKs to the back of the bus... why the huge difference?

[Kaishod]

<DIV>OK, wasting time on the broker buying masters for my guilldies (sold a nice piece:smileyhappy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I have come to notice some of the master spellsthat are out there.  The differnce is AMAZING... at least :smileysad:.  For those that haven't done a broker search, lvl 60-70 of masters, all classes, you get a wild insight to how ripped off the SK class is.  Dont get me wrong, I love my SK and can't tolerate an alt past 25 before I get bored, but was wondering why such a major difference?   I know that every class has its ups and its downs and its bugs and its own awesomeness to it, but when you look at the master spell descriptions, it looks like we got the short end of the stick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From HUGE debuffs/buffs ranging in the 100s for Int/Str to HUGE taunts to HUGE hits, its crazy!  When there are several classes that have AEs totaling about 1500 over time  to our 800 (stated on spell description, I know it has to do w/ Int/Str, resitability, etc, so drop it).  Or to several one hits that range anywhere from 900-15000 to our range of 300-5700.  Or to several mit debuffs granting in the 1000s to our 300.  I can go on and on, but you would really have to take a min to check it out.   How can a brigand get more of a taunt then an SK?   How can one class get several spells over 5k and us only one?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know SKs are a different breed then other classes, just wondering why such a HUGE difference when you look at the masters.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lord Hackenslash]

um.. its called balance.if we could do all those things you mentioned we would be the only class anyone played as there would be no reason to be any other class. as it is we are one of the most versatile classes out there. we are also one of the hardest to play effectively because of this. its just how things are. all you need to do is find what your niche is as an sk and it'll all fall into place.<div></div>

[Belaythien]

As far as taunts are concerned I think the SK gets useful ones. They are around the same value as the ones of other tank classes (single and encounter taunt). Some tanks only get interruption for their encounter taunt and we get a great debuff. Guardians and suchlike get more taunt-utility spells where we get damage. It's either that or the other.There are classes in Everquest 2 that get massive damage spells and others that don't. My dirge's most damaging attack for example is the creature mastery strike. Other scouts get much higher damage spells ... not to mention cloth casters or even some healers. Though I have better buffs of course. The difference between pure DDs and tanks/support classes is quite extreme in my opinion. Yet I prefer a lot of medium damage attack to some ultra high damage attacks. On raids I (with my Dirge) sometimes outdamage pure DDs without having to worry about aggro from those 10k hits.When comparing debuffs you always have to consider recast/power cost/# of targets/ etc. Some classes get debuffs as a vital part of their class (Brigant), so they have to use them very often. Other classes get them only as an added utility (SKs).The one spell I never understood was our str/sta group buff. All other classes get their buff for around 80-100 points with two stats and we get only half of that. That always seemed unfair to me. Oh and the fact that a defensive Berserker does more damage than an offensive SK. Well ... ok and the fact that we are almost useless on raids. With our mediocre damage and little protecion abilities (compared to a paladin for example) we are more or less a waste of space that could be filled by a support or dd char <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[Pentarum]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Funny cause on my server Unrest Sk's seem to be the new flavor of the month. There are so many new sk's poping up its scary. 8 sk's in east freeport earlier today when it was odd to see more than 2-3 before EoF helped us out. Tons I've never seen before over the past few weeks. As for being usefull. Sk's are one of the best soloers and I think alot of the new ones are just that. I just hope they realize that most guilds already have 1-2 sk's and thats all they will probally take and even then they tend to be the best of the best sk's for harcore guilds. Alot of these new sk's will get discouraged at not being able to get into endgame raid guilds and get shelved for next months flavor. Oh and dont knock Sk's on raids anymore. Its old thinking that doesnt hold as true as it used to. 3 of the top raid guilds on our server each have a few sk's who raid regulary and with the right setup and a good person controling them can dish out very respectable dps and tank certain encounters better than other plate wearers. (Sk's dots are great on memwipe mobs, mobs that you need to switch tanks like the 2nd one in FTH scream Brusier/SK) That and I can attest to the fact that even a guardian with people boosting his agro can not hold agro off me if im doing my best to match the T1 dps (which we can sometimes) and if he goes down our sk's are usually the one the named will go for first and end up tanking for the rest of the fight. On Poi/Dis mobs we normally end up using a Sk MT as we are more suited for those encounters and the last few expansions/packs KoS, Fallen Dynasty and EoF are FILLED with Poi/Disease mobs. Our Debuffs are more of a Selfbuff/debuff than anything else. Combined with certain other like Brell's Mit buffs can put our mit WAY above other plate classes especially in multiple mob encounter fights.Despoils +325mit per mob in the encounter. Say 5 mobs 1625 with Brells blessing <b>Stature of Serilis</b> (Increases Mitigation of caster vs all physical, heat and cold damage by 1050) stacked with the Miracle <b>Protection of Brell (</b>Increases Mitigation of caster vs all physical damage by 3500) Can give us almost 13k mit with a well geared raid tank SK. Thats WAY above the softcap but it still makes us much more viable as a raid MT for multimob encounters.Im assuming these do stack of course as I dont know for sure and would love to know =)<p>Message Edited by Pentarum on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:18 AM</span>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>Hi Pent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They do stack (and you're right about the amount of new SKs popping up on Unrest hehe...we have 39 SKs in guild at various levels right now...lot of them newer roll-ups.). I use exactly that once in awhile on Gnorbl, and Gnillaw sometimes. Stature of Syrilis works a little diff than was on the God post...it's a percent of worn armor boost (10 or 15%..forget at the sec) + the 1050 heat/cold. Despoil M1....a few mobs resist usually though out of the large group, even so, I usually hit around 12500 mitigation on those pulls, and throw up divine Aura at the same time. It soaked up 18 hits off the Gnorbl pull last time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid buffed I'm usually at 5950-6100 mit (around 63-64%), 13500hp, avoid 53-54% before temp buffs (all depending on who is in the MT group), and pre-temp buffs, items or clickies....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say for Gnorbl...after Stature of Syryllis I hit around 6300-6400 Mit (10 minute duration), Fury puts Urchin +1200 (so around 7500 Mit)....Despoil usually lands on ~6 tots for the opening pull...so +2000 Mit (at ~9500 Mit at that point)...the the Protection of Brell +3500 can put you around 13000 mitigation. Hit Divine Aura right after and you can take an extreme amount of hits like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even just on pulls like the mass on the stairs right before Vilucidae...just with despoil shoots you arond 9200 mitigation. Simple 3 mob trash pulls gives you the equlivalent of a personal Urchin off every pull also...that staggers downward with every mob dropping, but lasts the complete encounter. SKs are juggernauts on multi-mobs for sure. More than fine on singles too, just a definite edge on multi-mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Side note: I also used Protection of Brell quite a few times on Tarinax, Vilucidae, Zylphax etc if I was in trouble btw....their bigger hits would drop from the 2200-4000K range to the 600 to 1300 range, definitely love that Miracle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Filmore Graves</DIV> <DIV>The Shard Collectors</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS. /agree with the rest of your comments and observations there too. There is definitely encounters where SKs really are the best suited.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Coica]

well thanks! haha, these are the only reasons I think about switching diety. we need  somewhere to post a list of all the blessings/miracles from the gods an SK might choose. <div></div>

[Terron]

I have both a guard (64 my main and first character)  and a SK (37). Guard's encounter taunt has no additional effect on mobs, though it can be used when stifled/stunned. With a critical hit on his highest damage attack (level 64 CA) at master II and boosted by achievements my guard managed a bit over 2300 damage yesterday. 5700 is beyond his wildest dreams. His only mit debuff is from a hex doll. Guard's get to buff one stat for the group - STA - by 66 with the master I of the level 70 version. By the measures mentioned in this thread SKs are not at the back of the bus. Of course guards do get abilities that are good, such as ToS and Reinforcement. So do SKs. Guards and SKs are fighters, their speciality is tanking, not DPS, buffing or debuffing. Of course the specialists in those are significantly better at their specialities. <div></div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> muguguypan wrote:<BR>well thanks! haha, these are the only reasons I think about switching diety.<BR><BR> we need  somewhere to post a list of all the blessings/miracles from the gods an SK might choose. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><SPAN class=postbody><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=27287" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=27287</A></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=postbody>I used this Link...a few of the abilities are slightly off...like the Stature one, but it's pretty good info overall</SPAN></P>

[Beldin_]

<P>The big hitters of other classes mostly have much longer cast and recast times, also these classes often don't have as much spells as we have and while a wizard maybe casts an AoE and a single nuke we have castet 4 AoEs and 5 single attacks. So yeah .. most styles don't look spectacular on the first view, but practically they add up to nice damage <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>To make it clearer a little chart from a PP run with a wizard, on top is Shalla, on bottom the wizard :</P> <P><IMG src="http://mitglied.lycos.de/Drizzt/EQ2/pp-chart01.jpg"></P> <P>Btw.: zonewide my dps was 20% higher then the wizzys :p</P><p>Message Edited by Beldin_ on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 AM</span>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pentarum wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Funny cause on my server Unrest Sk's seem to be the new flavor of the month. There are so many new sk's poping up its scary. <hr></blockquote>On Mistmoore too. You can always tell which classes people are building up by looking at the number (and price) of low level masters on the broker. Especially in the 30-35 range which drop very regularly from named in RoV. Wardens are suddenly the fastest thing on two feet, so everyone is playing them (and ditching their bards.)  I think we've been bragging about our Reaver line too much, because SK masters at these levels are getting pricey.<div><blockquote><hr>Pentarum wrote: Our Debuffs are more of a Selfbuff/debuff than anything else. <hr></blockquote>Bufftaps. I would like to take all of the credit for this word. Please send royalty checks to Mistmoore.Milaga.This is my favorite part about the Shadowknight and what I think sets them apart from everyone else. We can't heal ourselves, but we can lifetap. We have some buffs, but the best ones require us to steal the buff from an enemy. Very cool.</div></div>

[Nole]

<P>I just got Tap Veins, and I thinking: Who on earth thought it was balanced to give me a full heal on a 60 sec timer (45 with AA)? As long as I can have reaver going it heals me 600+ per target. I'm guessing the heal ammount doesn't actually scale and it will stop being a close to 100% heal as I get closer to 70.</P> <P>Still, being a tank with AoEs for me is a novel concept. Closest to it is using a spear in Lineage 2, except then I'd have to play Lineage 2.</P>

[Zanix]

<P>tap veins is by far my favorite spell. Takes care of the semi-afk healers, and people in groups are llike [Removed for Content]was that?!!</P> <P> </P>

[Thor71457]

<P>I agree, I find it very useful</P> <P> </P> <P> Blackice</P> <P>Ogre SK</P>

[hellskitten]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nole wrote:<BR> <P>I just got Tap Veins, and I thinking: Who on earth thought it was balanced to give me a full heal on a 60 sec timer (45 with AA)?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dont get me wrong; I love the spell and would sale off every healer in my guild to get a master of it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But its not as overpowered as your stating. You only get a "full heal" under certain circumstances.. against a full grp. Against a single mob it isnt all that ... I only use it in an desperate emergency during a solo encounter.

[Pentarum]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>2 or more mobs and its worth its cast time and mana cost (Like casting Drain Vitae on each mob around you). 8 mobs well... lol... The spell is always worth it after 2 mobs if you have the AA's put into it and Spell cast haste from the str line... Yummy 39.5 sec add in DM so its a .81-1.0 cast time and the carnage flies.<div></div><span></span><p>Beldin....</p><p>I know what you mean. Since I changed to a dps sk I have to wear a deagro robe on raids. I would love badly for some type of deagro to make a non tank Dps sk a fun choice. The options are there but FD just doesnt cut it. Something like this...</p><p>Corruption Spear: Inflicts 500 disease damage on target. Fear's Target for .5 sec has a 25% chance to deagro target for 250 hate. 1.0 cast time 9sec recast. (You corrupt their thoughts</p><p>Or make it a aoe. (We are normally followers of Innoruuk yet we have no metal damage and thats what he buffs for?)</p><p>Wave of Corruption. Inflicts 400 mental damage and 400 disease damage on target encounter Fear's Target encounter for .5 sec Stuns encounter for.2 sec. 2.0 cast time 60 sec recast.</p><p>With a AA that adds a Deagro effect if you so choose since your pretty much sending out a pulse of Fear. This would give us a 6th aoe to match pallys 6. The damage would be less than our current aoe's and this fits the sk class nicely to make us the a group encounter tank on raids or as a added measure for those of us that are not tanks.</p><p>Guardians would still be the Single target masters.</p><p>Pallys would still be the best For hate reduction.</p><p>Bezerkers would still have better buffs/mit</p><p>Sk's would work well on groups of mobs giving us a nice niche on raids</p><p>Message Edited by Pentarum on <span class=date_text>01-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 PM</span>

[Norrsken]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pentarum wrote:<BR><BR> Funny cause on my server Unrest Sk's seem to be the new flavor of the month. There are so many new sk's poping up its scary. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>On Mistmoore too. You can always tell which classes people are building up by looking at the number (and price) of low level masters on the broker. Especially in the 30-35 range which drop very regularly from named in RoV. Wardens are suddenly the fastest thing on two feet, so everyone is playing them (and ditching their bards.)  I think we've been bragging about our Reaver line too much, because SK masters at these levels are getting pricey.<BR> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Does the 10% incombat speed stack with sow? Otherwise, mystics are faster.<BR></P>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>roxer2b wrote:<div></div><p>Does the 10% incombat speed stack with sow? Otherwise, mystics are faster.</p><hr></blockquote>I thought wardens had the out-of-combat speed buffs and furies had the in-combat speed buffs. My Fury has an in-combat run speed of 45%, 85% when sprinting and 100% when using pact of cheetah.But that's just a self buff, wardens have that nice long-duration SOW. Pentarum - You don't have the cryptic metallic robe, do you? I've been trying to convince my guild to raid MOTM for like a year now, no one else is interested. :/</div>

[Norrsken]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roxer2b wrote:<BR> <P>Does the 10% incombat speed stack with sow? Otherwise, mystics are faster.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I thought wardens had the out-of-combat speed buffs and furies had the in-combat speed buffs. My Fury has an in-combat run speed of 45%, 85% when sprinting and 100% when using pact of cheetah.<BR><BR>But that's just a self buff, wardens have that nice long-duration SOW. <BR><BR>Pentarum - You don't have the cryptic metallic robe, do you? I've been trying to convince my guild to raid MOTM for like a year now, no one else is interested. :/<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Both druids have the 10% in combat buff. ITs in the druid tree. Furies get a 35% addition to that. and as faes they can get yet another 5% for a blazing 50% constant in combat runspeed. Then you have stacking gear, if there is such.

[Pentarum]

<div></div>Nope. If im having a good night and im parsing 1400-2k dps I will be asked to either slow down, get removed from the mage group or have to put on the deagro robe from TT. anything above 1500dps and I will rip agro from any MT. Above 1800 and nobody in the raid cept our warlock is going to pull the mobs off me. I've ended up tanking raid named a few times recently in a robe and mage spell cast proc gear offensive. MT told me to go for it cause he used everything and couldnt scratch my agro. I feel bad cause its his job to tank but I know I can push myself harder and put out even more dps than that but I have to [Removed for Content] myself. I feel like a warlock before they got all the deagro loving. If its a low melee high magic mob we are usually fine. High melee high magic and I go splat alot!  I dont mind dying cause well I know its going to happen. If it doesnt someone will almost always say Wow Pent hasnt died yet tonight. lol They give me crap about the robe too but I dont want to have to replace my spell damage augs with deagro cause thats a step in the wrong direction for rasing my dps. Give us a Deagro spell/skill/ability!! Not evey sk in the game is a tank!<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pentarum on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pentarum wrote:<div></div>Give us a Deagro spell/skill/ability!! Not evey sk in the game is a tank!<div></div><hr></blockquote>Please don't post this ever again. >:[</div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pentarum wrote:<BR> <BR>Give us a Deagro spell/skill/ability!! Not evey sk in the game is a tank!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Please don't post this ever again. >:[<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>:smileyvery-happy: LOL...too funny

[Norrsken]

<blockquote><hr>Pentarum wrote:<div></div>Give us a Deagro spell/skill/ability!! Not evey sk in the game is a tank!<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pentarum on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span><hr></blockquote>You have fd.

[Squigglle]

wizard got it too...

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<P>As one who is building my SK AA's down hate Line and Reaver line, my goal is to teach a few pallies and guardians that SK's have a tricks up there sleeves as well show others who say SK's don't have a purpose. Nice thing is with EoF SK's have gained alot of respect for those who are well played. There will still always be those who suck at there classes but eh. </P> <P>As far as a deaggro .. NO F-ing WAY!!!!  If the raid leader doesn't want us ripping aggro then perhaps its time for them to change group set ups. With Amends and Moderate on a SK a well played one will still pull aggro easily. </P> <P>We are a tank class that has High dps potential and when in full burn mode that means the healers will have to work on keeping us up. A bit more mitigation and hp's would be nice but who's to know what is on the horizon for SK's and the other tank classes. </P> <P>I have a 70 SK aside from my signature. I still play the SK alot can't wait to finally have my hate/reaver lines finalized.</P> <P>Just my 2cp or 3 cp. <BR><BR>This is my thoughts on this.</P>

[Pentarum]

<div></div>Im not asking to lower our agro!! Heaven knows how long we fought to get some of that! What im asking for is some other form of deagro for those of us who are NOT tanks. A low damage single target nuke 400 mental damage with 400 deagro every 10 sec or so. Replace our stupid Bloodlines vamp tap with it lol call it Repulsion. Even a aoe every 30 sec that deagro's 300 anything =P FD is nice but even 2min30sec recast isnt enough on most raids if you have fast killing groups. I like the class I've played a sk's since eqlive started and I see potential for a dps version of sk slowly building and thats what im working on. But agro has me at a wall right now. Guild love my dps but even with amends I still rip agro off any MT. Fd is great the first time. The 2-5 times Is a bumpy ride. I have a warlock too I saw the same problem. They got some loving im just asking for another option.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pentarum on <span class=date_text>02-03-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:47 PM</span>

[Norrsken]

I think it would be nice if we could feed our hate to someone else. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Say the MT. [I cannot control my vocabulary] that would be nice. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<blockquote><hr>roxer2b wrote:I think it would be nice if we could feed our hate to someone else. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Say the MT. [I cannot control my vocabulary] that would be nice. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>If you want to feed the hate to someone else you may as well make a scout class. We fought long and hard to get aggro loving and now that we have it people are bloody whining and moaning about it. As they say, you can please people part of the time and you can't please people the other part. And the way SOE does things to many posts about SK's ripping aggro and guess what guys, NERF's will happen again. I for one will be rather  irate or very upset if our class gets beat again by nerf's because of too many whiners. Alot have looked past Live Update 13, many of us haven't and with post's asking for major changes to the class you can insure that there will be a repeat of LU 13. And yes I am coming off very defensive of our class and the loving we got by the dev's to see a bunch of people whine and cry about aggro. I know that when having a hate reducer on us we can rip aggro well if thats the case then its upto the raid leaders to restructure the raids. Once again my  thoughts and opinions, agree or disagree, your choice folks.<div></div>

[hellskitten]

<P>Personally I dont mind being an aggro magnet; I giggle at the thought of the high and mighty guardian beating his/her head against wall because the "[Removed for Content]" SK tank can yank aggro at a whim. </P> <P>That being said the request for an ability to loan hate is not out of line IMO.  Do swashies not have both ability to gain and loan hate? Yes they are a scout which explains why they can loan it.. but fact still remains why do they have ability to generate it besides thru just DPS? Because.. they are a utility scout class (If I misunderstand the role please correct me.) Are SKs not the utility tank class? Seems to me if we are the equiv then its not out the question to have a simular ability set.</P> <P>Just pointing out the flip side of the coin. I truley believe SKs are fine (close to perfect)  the way we are. The devs did a great job as far as we can choose to fill a tank or a DPS role. No matter what alt I try out.. I keep running right back to where Im happy... running most Norrathian cultures out of body bags.</P><p>Message Edited by hellskitten on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 AM</span>

[Eluzay]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pentarum wrote:<div></div>Im not asking to lower our agro!! Heaven knows how long we fought to get some of that! What im asking for is some other form of deagro for those of us who are NOT tanks. A low damage single target nuke 400 mental damage with 400 deagro every 10 sec or so. Replace our stupid Bloodlines vamp tap with it lol call it Repulsion. Even a aoe every 30 sec that deagro's 300 anything =P FD is nice but even 2min30sec recast isnt enough on most raids if you have fast killing groups. I like the class I've played a sk's since eqlive started and I see potential for a dps version of sk slowly building and thats what im working on. But agro has me at a wall right now. Guild love my dps but even with amends I still rip agro off any MT. Fd is great the first time. The 2-5 times Is a bumpy ride. I have a warlock too I saw the same problem. They got some loving im just asking for another option.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Pentarum on <span class="date_text">02-03-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:47 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>agro is a team sport, you have fd if you get it once, but many classes have to find the line between dps and getting agro. It is not the tanks job alone with agro. If you get agro then you have to learn to pace yourself. If you have gotten good enough on your sk that you are getting agro without DM or intercede then you are a [I cannot control my vocabulary] site better equipped than most  SK's, and if you are using DM to increase your dps then you [I cannot control my vocabulary] well better have your FD up or it is your repair bill and nobody else's fault.in the end you strive for more and more dps, once you are getting agro then you are striving to do as much dps without pulling agro. I garuntee that there are quite a few dpsers in your raids holding back unless they have a troub deagro buff on them.no tank has or should get deagro lines.just my 2 cp</div>

[Beldin_]

<DIV>Please... don't cry for detaunts .. they would rather nerf our DPS if to much people complain about that :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[kickmyd0g]

<DIV>Sk's are the consumate Jack of all trades, Master of none</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can do almost anything (apart from heal), Debuff, DPS, Tank etc but we are mediocre at all of it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be nice for once to say that my SK is the best at something, we do make good solo characters</DIV> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face="Times New Roman">mediocre</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>

[Beldin_]

In groups we are Tank, DD and healer in one person .. i often do the most DPS zonewide, while i tank and heal as much as other healers in the group .. i wouldn't call that medicore .. its at least more than enough for me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kickmyd0g]

<DIV>I do applogise for not being specific enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a single grp we can fold out own, there's no doubt about that but in a raid environment SK's are well and truly mediocre and can easily me missed off a raid without the raid suffering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many of us have respecced 4 or 5 times looking for that balance of attributes to make us more useful to or giuld, I know I have.</DIV> <DIV>It would be nice to be needed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eluzay]

<div><blockquote><hr>kickmyd0g wrote:<div></div> <div>I do applogise for not being specific enough.</div> <div> </div> <div>In a single grp we can fold out own, there's no doubt about that but in a raid environment SK's are well and truly mediocre and can easily me missed off a raid without the raid suffering.</div> <div> </div> <div>How many of us have respecced 4 or 5 times looking for that balance of attributes to make us more useful to or giuld, I know I have.</div> <div>It would be nice to be needed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I think a lot of it has to do with who plays the skwhen i run in raid i run mostly in off mode with reaver on... i intercept a LOT of damage from the mt, esp the alpha strikes, and because of reaver the healers (once they realize my ability) dont worry too much about me ... I am half a healer, half a dpser, and i debuff, and i give hate to the tank (blessings give hate to the tank, so there is our hate give, and usable on raid friend).  We are a great addition to a raid (if played properly)... I am always in top 8 dpsers and always in top 5 healers... i would say that is pretty impressive stackup. sometimes i am in top 5 or 4 in both catagories</div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>I find pretty much any class is replaceable, though you feel the bite a bit more on some than others. I'd rather have an SK in-raid than not personally.</DIV>

[ArmadaXeenelk]

unless they've changed it blessing nets hate to you rather then the MT. its great when you're an ammends target but from personally testing and working with healers it gives hate to the caster(SK) rather the the proc'er(MT). :shrug: could have changed though, ill take another look if you're sure...

[Norrsken]

<cite>kickmyd0g wrote:</cite><blockquote> Sk's are the consumate Jack of all trades, Master of none We can do almost anything (apart from heal), Debuff, DPS, Tank etc but we are mediocre at all of it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It would be nice for once to say that my SK is the best at something, we do make good solo characters <p><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman">mediocre</span></span></span></p><p></blockquote></p><p>We are quite good healers. As long as we are the ones taking damage. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[AziBam]

<cite>ArmadaXeenelk wrote:</cite><blockquote>unless they've changed it blessing nets hate to you rather then the MT. its great when you're an ammends target but from personally testing and working with healers it gives hate to the caster(SK) rather the the proc'er(MT). :shrug: could have changed though, ill take another look if you're sure... </blockquote>Ok was peeved about not having a quote button until I realized I had to sign in yet.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Don't think there have been any changes but what I can say regarding blessing is that the damage and heal get parsed to the proc'er (as you put it).  I discovered this when in a group with guildmates and saw that the zerker who was tanking had quite a bit of healing showing which I couldn't understand.  I reviewed the parse file and it was all voracious soul from Blessing.  It would be exceedingly odd for the hate to then go to the SK.  My experience with this is that if we are not tanking and cast it on the tank prior to the pull the hate goes to the tank.  If you cast it mid pull before taunts have been dropped then it's just like anything else and you suddenly receive aggro due to the casting of a spell or buff that any class would get.  If we do actually get the hate when we cast it on someone else then we better start screaming about a change to show those damage and heal numbers attributable to us as they are not insignificant for either category.  Frankly, I sometimes think the figures should show to us even if it means receiving hate from it as it is a significant contribution we make but get no credit for.    

[Sportak]

<cite>Beldin_ wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>In groups we are Tank, DD and healer in one person .. i often do the most DPS zonewide, while i tank and heal as much as other healers in the group .. i wouldn't call that medicore .. its at least more than enough for me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote></p><p>You must group with some really crappy DPS and healers <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>j/k, but seriously I group with the same people from our raid alliance all the time, and I do decent dps but nowhere near the wizzies/rangers/assassins etc, and my self heals are good but nowhere near the wardens/templars/inquis etc. We all have pretty much all masters etc too. </p>

[ArmadaXeenelk]

The problem you're describing is a parsing one, not an internal SOE programming issue. This is because your "parser" only has access to public logs, which are in the form of text files with raw on screen output.... which is "blah blah's voracious soul heals himself for 157hp" etc etc. if the procing generated hate it would equal the hps healed + the dmg done and give that sum to the MT as hate, correct? I assumed it wasn't doing that, because I noticed that without taunts the MT's aggro would go to me on body pulls when I had blessing up on them. I could be wrong, but this means that the mob doesn't get hate because you buffed a guy before a pull, he gets hate because you're casting a spell that procs(casts if you will) after he's engaged which has hate(death march for example) associated with it or it A) heals, B) dmgs or C) taunts the reason you're getting aggro is because it's associating the hate gain with you and not the MT, otherwise it'd be the equivilent to heals+dmg in hate FOR the MT. I could have this all wrong, just my take on how the system worked (from reading the boards and playing) :shrug: if they wanted to though they could have the output attribute to the caster of the buff, I know enchanters and a lot of other buffers(bards) would love to know EXACTLY how much dmg they're giving the group, but I doubt we'll ever see that happen.... <cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ArmadaXeenelk wrote:</cite><blockquote>unless they've changed it blessing nets hate to you rather then the MT. its great when you're an ammends target but from personally testing and working with healers it gives hate to the caster(SK) rather the the proc'er(MT). :shrug: could have changed though, ill take another look if you're sure... </blockquote>Ok was peeved about not having a quote button until I realized I had to sign in yet.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Don't think there have been any changes but what I can say regarding blessing is that the damage and heal get parsed to the proc'er (as you put it).  I discovered this when in a group with guildmates and saw that the zerker who was tanking had quite a bit of healing showing which I couldn't understand.  I reviewed the parse file and it was all voracious soul from Blessing.  It would be exceedingly odd for the hate to then go to the SK.  My experience with this is that if we are not tanking and cast it on the tank prior to the pull the hate goes to the tank.  If you cast it mid pull before taunts have been dropped then it's just like anything else and you suddenly receive aggro due to the casting of a spell or buff that any class would get.  If we do actually get the hate when we cast it on someone else then we better start screaming about a change to show those damage and heal numbers attributable to us as they are not insignificant for either category.  Frankly, I sometimes think the figures should show to us even if it means receiving hate from it as it is a significant contribution we make but get no credit for.     </blockquote>

[AziBam]

I understand what you are saying between the distinction of ACT and SOE but parsers were written based upon SOE's data so I don't have any trouble doubting their accuracy.  If the damage and heals parse to the recipient of blessing then I for one have no problem with the expectation that the hate goes that same way.  The one exception I can come up with to this damage/hate relationship is the spell Iceshield from wizards.  It's a reactive damage spell much like blessing just without the heal component (and a larger amount of damage.)  In response to wizards complaints that they were not up to par with other top level dps classes the devs changed how ice shield worked.  Instead of the damage and hate going to the tank, the damage attributed to the wizard for parsing purposes (note that they don't live in a vaccuum and know that people parse info out there) and they specifically made that spell a zero hate ability so that even though damage showed to the wizard it didn't get them killed all the time.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I think that blessing is just like Ice Shield used to be prior to the change.  (Will also note that wizards didn't ask for this change and many would view it as worse rather than better since it used to help give the tanks a nice burst of hate upon pull making it safer for the wizard to nuke away.)  Long story short is that a bit of testing needs to be done to verify one way or another.  I'll try to do some in the next few days and post what I find.   If you or anyone else has info they can add it would be great. 

[AziBam]

Ok, did a bit of testing.  Lunchtime ftw! Grabbed wizard guildmate.  How could he refuse when I suggested that HE come tank for ME removing any damage proc items or buffs and even unequipping your weapon.  I also shut off Everlasting Hunger. What wizard could pass up that opportunity. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We went to ravasect isle in TT.  Both of us are level 70.  We tested on 10-15 mobs total all green of course.  If I precast blessing and we did nothing else other than have him body pull and engage weaponless autoattack the ravasects stayed on him full duration of the fight.  They even stayed on him through my recasting of blessing when it expired or had proc'ed it's full 5.   If I cast blessing during the pull they turned to me and attacked me before they even started attacking the wizard. I then tested again with a pre-cast on the wizard.  Had him body pull, then after two or three durations of the blessing ward I'd start to nuke.  I would have to nuke them on average 2-4 times to pull aggro off of the wizard.  When I say nuke I mean I'd start with anger followed by vitae, smite, etc.  I reviewed ACT parses and found that on average he had done roughly 50 points of damage total from his weaponless auto attack.  Usually there was several thousand from voracious soul for damage and all of his healing numbers were from soul.  No other types of damage from him.  Considering that I had to do a couple thousand or more points of damage to pull aggro off of him I'd conclude that the hate from blessing is going to the one it is cast upon not the SK (unless cast upon yourself of course.)   As with any spell, if you cast it after the mobs are engaged but before anyone has taunted or done anything else to gain hate the simple act of casting will put you on the hate list right away making you gain aggro.