Defensive Stance: Change the WIS to AGI!

[pawnipt]

<div></div>Wish the devs would change out defensive stance wisdom buff to AGI, since wisdom hardly does squat for us anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>Personally, I'm a big fan of Wis on the defensive buff. I find resists are much more important now than ever. </DIV>

[Zagats]

<DIV>WIS increases resistances though...which is nice to have.</DIV>

[Margen]

Aye wisdom is helpfull against spell attacks.  I personally prefer wisdom, think you get more bang for the buck vs agility.  Now I wouldn't mind some form of parry buff also to be honest.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

No thanks. I like wisdom as is. We already have a way to increase our avoidance % by switching to def stance from off or neutral stance. AGI only makes avoidance % go up a little more. I like def stance that has ability to increase avoidance %, mitigation % AND resists % and wis solved that.  If we get agi,  We would only increase avoidance and mitigation % only.

[LagerYerba]

<div>Are you serious....?<blockquote><hr>pawnipt wrote:<div></div>Wish the devs would change out defensive stance wisdom buff to AGI, since wisdom hardly does squat for us anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>WIS helps with out overall capability to resists spells outright. You notice when you see "resist" over your head? the more WIS, the more likely you'll see that pop up against casters throwing spells in your direction.  If anything, AGI is the useless stat for shadowknights... if you want more avoidance, use the +parry or +blocking adornments. we're plate tanks, not Neo. we need more hps, more mitigation (even though that doesn't make much now) and WIS/INT for resists/nukes.</div>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LagerYerba wrote:<BR> <DIV>Are you serious....?<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pawnipt wrote:<BR> Wish the devs would change out defensive stance wisdom buff to AGI, since wisdom hardly does squat for us anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>WIS helps with out overall capability to resists spells outright. You notice when you see "resist" over your head? the more WIS, the more likely you'll see that pop up against casters throwing spells in your direction.  If anything, AGI is the useless stat for shadowknights... if you want more avoidance, use the +parry or +blocking adornments. we're plate tanks, not Neo. we need more hps, more mitigation (even though that doesn't make much now) and WIS/INT for resists/nukes.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, agi is not entirely useless now. It means more than before combat upgrade cuz we generally have low agi to start with well below 420 diminishing return. Basically, shoot up your agi to the break point then focus on other stuff then you are good to go. You get more bang per agi now if your agi is low..

[Xanoth]

personally i'd find our defencive stance a lot more appealing if it had agi rather than wis. at the moment i almost NEVER use defencive stance, even when raiding, the difference is negelagable. and resistances are a joke anyway, an extra ~140 wis isn't going to help. it will translate to ~400 to all saves, its rare that your ever going to nead ALL saves... get resist gear.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanoth wrote:<BR>personally i'd find our defencive stance a lot more appealing if it had agi rather than wis. at the moment i almost NEVER use defencive stance, even when raiding, the difference is negelagable. and resistances are a joke anyway, an extra ~140 wis isn't going to help. it will translate to ~400 to all saves, its rare that your ever going to nead ALL saves... get resist gear.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hehe, actually...  Agi and Wis benefits entirely depends on type of Sks..   Wis is useful for raiding SKs while agi is useful for soloing Sks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We just have 2 different camps of Sks and current defensive stance only benefits raiding Sks the most.. I use off stance all the time to solo cuz of added INT so I can lifetap better anyway. If defensive stance got agi then I still would use off stance to solo anyway so I wanted wisdom so I can use def stance just for grouping MT or raiding so I have more choices. </P><p>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on <span class=date_text>12-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

I'm pretty much the same way. I rarely, if ever, solo...but if I do...I stay almost exclusively in offensive. Raiding, I stay exclusively in Defensive unless I see we are hitting very high raid DPS numbers. Then I switch to offensive for most trash, and defensive for named and a few trash I find that can dish it out.

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanoth wrote:<BR>personally i'd find our defencive stance a lot more appealing if it had agi rather than wis. at the moment i almost NEVER use defencive stance, even when raiding, the difference is negelagable. and resistances are a joke anyway, an extra ~140 wis isn't going to help. it will translate to ~400 to all saves, its rare that your ever going to nead ALL saves... get resist gear.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hehe, actually...  Agi and Wis benefits entirely depends on type of Sks..   Wis is useful for raiding SKs while agi is useful for soloing Sks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We just have 2 different camps of Sks and current defensive stance only benefits raiding Sks the most.. I use off stance all the time to solo cuz of added INT so I can lifetap better anyway. If defensive stance got agi then I still would use off stance to solo anyway so I wanted wisdom so I can use def stance just for grouping MT or raiding so I have more choices. </P> <P>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on <SPAN class=date_text>12-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:13 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Except that the SKs saying they would rather have AGI then wis on defensive stance are raiding SKs.   Myself I would rather agi, or parry.  Wis is now overrated and less usefull then agi is to us IMO.    Wis isn't bad on our defensive stance, it just doesn't make as much sense as before.

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<BR> <P><BR>Hehe, actually...  Agi and Wis benefits entirely depends on type of Sks..   Wis is useful for raiding SKs while agi is useful for soloing Sks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agi would also better for group-players .. if you look at KoS group instances .. especially HoF which was the "highest" .. all the mobs there do plain melee damage. Only mob i remember where you needed resists was Xhaviz in Nest when you go in there at lower levels, however its easyier to buff +2000 divine resis with swapping some items then getting +100 agi. At the moment i really never use defense stance for the maybe 2% more miti it gives now :smileysad:<BR>

[pawnipt]

AGI > WIS!!AGI + DEFENSE = second best way to avoid mele attacks, BLOCK being #1WIS is pretty much useless unless you got gear with zero resists on it i guess?<div></div>im pretty sure almost all mobs do 90% more mele then magical damage, so uh yea just think about it pls before u say wisdom is better (especially for a sk that doesnt benefit from wisdom as a pally does).

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>I disagree. I'm much happier with the defensive buff having Wis than Agi. Neither adds enough to make a huge difference anyway, but I'd rather have a little extra padding on resists.</DIV>

[AziBam]

<DIV>If the swap was WIS to AGI I'd rather keep the WIS.  The WIS bonus does add a fair amount to our resists across the board.  Straight agility gives such puny returns to avoidance that I have no interest in it.  If however, the proposal was to add parry rather than WIS (which is what the Zerker defensive stance does...not sure about the other tank classes) then I'd be much more interested.</DIV>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<P>Hey, how about dropping stat AGI or Wis in def stance and just add straight up fixed hp or sta perhaps instead? </P> <P>HP means more now with Reaver line and HP is useful against ANY form of attacks instead of agi against physical and wis against magical.. HP against everything.. How is that? HP for def stance sounds more fitting concept to go with mitigation boost and I probably would go def stance to tank if I see nice HP boost to us from def stance.. Use INT for off stance for power while use STA or hp for health boost. Sounds like a good opposite from each other and might make everyone happy instead of wis or agi that only benefit 2 camps of SKs? </P> <P>Anyway, I did 2 lvl 75 collections last night and was surprised how good resists they are plus good stats+Hp+power to boot that makes wis "less" useful. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>Which collections were they Nocifer? I have a few of the 75s almost ready for turn in.</DIV><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>12-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>Which collections were they Nocifer? I have a few of the 75s almost ready for turn in.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <SPAN class=date_text>12-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Bandit coins and ghostly essences.  Off my head. they have stats of str+agi+sta or sta+int+wis in 20s and hp/power in 90/80ish and resists in 3 areas in area of 700's. gee impressive for a treasured items but the requirement is lvl 70 tho so that could explain why.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>ahh nice, ok thanks. I'm missing 1 of each...and of course the missing one is going for an amount I hate to pay for a collection.</DIV>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>ahh nice, ok thanks. I'm missing 1 of each...and of course the missing one is going for an amount I hate to pay for a collection.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hehe yeah, Brilliant ghostly essence cost me 3 plat to buy and Plat bandit coin cost me 2 plat to buy. Not too bad for lvl 75 collection tho heh.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Yep...those are the ones. Lol...same on all servers I suppose.

[Humuhumunukunukuapua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>Which collections were they Nocifer? I have a few of the 75s almost ready for turn in.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <SPAN class=date_text>12-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Bandit coins and ghostly essences.  Off my head. they have stats of str+agi+sta or sta+int+wis in 20s and hp/power in 90/80ish and resists in 3 areas in area of 700's. gee impressive for a treasured items but the requirement is lvl 70 tho so that could explain why.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which slots are these?</P> <P>p.s. Thread = derailed (but still useful :smileyhappy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Humuhumunukunukuapua'a wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>Which collections were they Nocifer? I have a few of the 75s almost ready for turn in.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <SPAN class=date_text>12-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Bandit coins and ghostly essences.  Off my head. they have stats of str+agi+sta or sta+int+wis in 20s and hp/power in 90/80ish and resists in 3 areas in area of 700's. gee impressive for a treasured items but the requirement is lvl 70 tho so that could explain why.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which slots are these?</P> <P>p.s. Thread = derailed (but still useful :smileyhappy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Neck and Wrist.

[LagerYerba]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<div></div> <p>Hey, how about dropping stat AGI or Wis in def stance and just add straight up fixed hp or sta perhaps instead? </p> <p>HP means more now with Reaver line and HP is useful against ANY form of attacks instead of agi against physical and wis against magical.. HP against everything.. How is that? HP for def stance sounds more fitting concept to go with mitigation boost and I probably would go def stance to tank if I see nice HP boost to us from def stance.. Use INT for off stance for power while use STA or hp for health boost. Sounds like a good opposite from each other and might make everyone happy instead of wis or agi that only benefit 2 camps of SKs? </p> <p>Anyway, I did 2 lvl 75 collections last night and was surprised how good resists they are plus good stats+Hp+power to boot that makes wis "less" useful. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><hr></blockquote>Having more HP is good, but damage needs to be mitigated in the first place to be even useful.10-11k HP does nothing for you if the mob debilitates you and CRITICALLY LAYS THE SMACKDOWN on you for 18k points of pwnt HP damageThe point of WIS is to completely ignore incoming spell damage.Yea, getting higher +resist items is always a good thing, but think of it this way... and by now most of you should know:-Low WIS... high resists = more spells land on you, do a little less damage on you-High WIS... low resists = spells land on you less often, do more damage on youHigh WIS... high resists = spells land less often, do less damage.... <---- that is what you want to acheiveI have a pretty much have the 3rd----^I'm probably one of the few people in my raid that can sit through a few AoEs doing more damage and healing myself enough to keep myself aliveAgain, AGI could prove beneficial but why dont you just get +parry adornments on forearms and then add parry triggered heal reactive adornments on one wrist and another wrist adornment with +% to block. you dont need to just add agi to increase your avoidance checks.Remember, melee damage isnt the only thing you need to avoid.</div>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LagerYerba wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Having more HP is good, but damage needs to be mitigated in the first place to be even useful.<BR>10-11k HP does nothing for you if the mob debilitates you and CRITICALLY LAYS THE SMACKDOWN on you for 18k points of pwnt HP damage<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, It really depends on..  If your mitigation is already high to start with then any extra mitigation would produce very small return due to diminishing return. Straight up HP itself is not part of diminishing return system at all so it's good for any range or level.  Basically, if you have high mitigation then it's better off to invest heavily into HP OR avoidance (SKs naturally have low avoidance) to make you even stronger. <BR></P>

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LagerYerba wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>The point of WIS is to completely ignore incoming spell damage.<BR><BR>Yea, getting higher +resist items is always a good thing, but think of it this way... and by now most of you should know:<BR><BR>-Low WIS... high resists = more spells land on you, do a little less damage on you<BR>-High WIS... low resists = spells land on you less often, do more damage on you<BR><BR>High WIS... high resists = spells land less often, do less damage.... <---- that is what you want to acheive<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are confused.   The only thing WIS does is raise your resists.</P> <P>Wisdom is <EM><STRONG>exactly</STRONG></EM> the same as resist.  The +145 wis on our defensive stance is about +340 to each resist.   That is all it does.     </P> <P>6000  resists with 0 wisdom is exactly the same as 6000 resists with 500 wisdom.   You will not resist spells more by having more wisdom,  you will not get hit more with less wisdom,  the only thing that matters is your resist number.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LagerYerba wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Again, AGI could prove beneficial but why dont you just get +parry adornments on forearms and then add parry triggered heal reactive adornments on one wrist and another wrist adornment with +% to block. you dont need to just add agi to increase your avoidance checks.<BR><BR>Remember, melee damage isnt the only thing you need to avoid.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>AGI and + parry adornments are > then just + parry adornments.    And once again, there is no spell dodge, you can resist a spell, but that is based solely on your resists and has nothing to do with wisdom.<BR></P>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>Seems like it comes down to whether you prefer having a couple % more avoidance or a few hundred more in resists (assuming it would even be an equal amount of AGI swapped in). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do have is the +5 defense pommel 1 hander, the +7 Parry foremarms and the +14 AGI hands, and 8 AA points in AGI stats (for now) though. My personal avoidance raid buffed used to be around 62 or 63%, last raid was around 56 or 57%...forget what the diff group makeup was though (I'll see what it's at tonight). At times I have a brawler avoid on me as well. I might switch the +67 miti wrists for Block soon too, we'll see. I alternate either Deftness or Piety grandmaster potions usually on most Epic named (depending on the mob), or Constitution Grandmasters for the more volatile spike hitters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't feel lacking in avoidance though, and personally enjoy having a few hundred in resists more. My resists overall are decent raid buffed, with a few higher (Heat/Cold/Disease) that are usually nicely over 6k before putting on resist gear...but I have a couple lower that I have to pad more (mental, divine, and poison a bit) when needed.</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

It would have to be a lot of agility to make any difference.  100agi is what? 2% avoidance?<div></div>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR>It would have to be a lot of agility to make any difference.  100agi is what? 2% avoidance?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's all depends on your level of agi to start with.  If you start out with 100 agi at lvl  70 then  you'll see bigger avoidance % per agi. If your agi is at 1k at 70 then you'll see horrible small % return per agi all way to 1070..   If your agi is at 100 then all the mean INVEST into agi. It'll be good..  At 500 would be toss-up (Break even is 420?).. But invest into other weak stats first for bigger returns. For me, +14 agi gives me 0.6% return which is pretty good already at my low AGI in 200's range. +140 would give me about 5% (not 6% cuz of diminishing return). You can see that it's rather good investment for nice return..  If you try to add +140 agi to a lvl 70 monk then you would see 2% or less. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>People kept forgetting about law of diminishing return effect post EOF combat upgrade.. Don't forget to factor that into your gear decision making.. For me, my str is pretty high already so I invest more into agi/INT. I just wanted high INT WITHOUT depending on off stance cuz I use def stance often now as MT for group and my INT is pretty low. Increase INT from 500 to 1070 would only result in 14% more damage to any of your spells. That's pretty small compared to increasing INT from 100 to 500 for example for MUCH bigger % return..</P> <P>To get most out of your character at optimal path would be to bring all of your stats (Wis means less than other 4 stats and even less if your resists are already very high to start with) to 500ish then anything over 500 would be more of gravy and your own preferences.. Probably change 500 to 420 for those serious min/max fellas heh. 500 is just pretty round number. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>