Battle Leadership and EoF Raiding

[Xanoth]

from what i've heard and read...a few of you picked it up, a didn't bother.just wondering what peoples findings are.im currentlySTR 448WIS 448INT 548and to be quite honest i've not noticed much improvement for picking up battle leadership.

[gnarkill]

I have been 4/4/8 STA 4/4/8 WIS 5/4/8 INT since june and I love it...Battle leadership almost negates our def stance penalty...I didnt go Str line ever (passing up melee crit isnt worth it imo and hammer ground is to much fun in pvp) I have been very happy and will continue to be with my spec..<div></div>

[Ajil]

I have same spec as Gnar, and I'm usually put in a DPS group so that I can up the casting/melee skills of the dps classes.  It's a useful role for when I'm not tanking, and it helps that I get some DPS buffs for myself in the bargain.  =)

[Xautha]

I just respecced recently to go with 5/4/8 int, 4/4/8 wis and 4/4/8 sta.. I think gnar is totally right on the melee crits. When I was all the way down the str line my dps took a huge hit. Last night in labs it was no problem for me to hit 1200 dps on single-target and group encounters. I was generating so much hate that I had trouble using sacrilege. I've tried every aa spec possible and this is by far the best one I've found for my own play-style. As far as pure dps goes, I could see the str line being up there but I'm not in a guild capable of killing the contested mobs necessary to take advantage of the line. For the average raid sk, I think this is the best over-all setup. <div></div>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xautha wrote:I just respecced recently to go with 5/4/8 int, 4/4/8 wis and 4/4/8 sta.. I think gnar is totally right on the melee crits. When I was all the way down the str line my dps took a huge hit. Last night in labs it was no problem for me to hit 1200 dps on single-target and group encounters. I was generating so much hate that I had trouble using sacrilege. I've tried every aa spec possible and this is by far the best one I've found for my own play-style. As far as pure dps goes, I could see the str line being up there but I'm not in a guild capable of killing the contested mobs necessary to take advantage of the line. For the average raid sk, I think this is the best over-all setup. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I really like the 448 STA line because of the 22% melee crit AND you get another AOE. The AoE isn't as useful in raid settings but it's great for giving you a chance to get blessing or DM off without getting stunned or for grabbing the aggro of an adding group without dotting (so it can be mezzed).  I think going STA or STR depends on your gear. If you've got a sweet axe like the Planar Axe of destruction the STR line is for you. Otherwise the STA line is probably better.I have to agree that the +34 for the WIS line is very nice when fighting orange epics or when the success of the encounter depends on landing roots, mezzes, memwipes etc. It also drops power requirements for ministration spells. I think it shaves about 10% of power off my blessing line. With that, mitigation, avoidance buffs, our STR/STA and our (somewhat wussy) lifetap proc we are definately the best fighter buffers for MTs.</div>

[Margen]

I changed to the battle leadership line since the combat changes.  Before when you could easly max out your c/p/s/m etc it really didn't help that much, but since the changes I've found it useful, especially fighting mobs like Tarniax.

[Hicar]

I was str 4 5 8 sta 4 4 8 and int 4 4 8 before EoF and was enjoying good dps. The lack of off skills didn't seem important. With the change, i tested wis 4 5 8 8 1 int 4 4 8, with the idea that the hp regen would be nice to offset reaver. But i foudn myself very lacking dps wise. Then i went for sta 4 4 8 wis 4 4 8 and int 4 4 8 1 knowing that reaver is a healign ability and 1 in heal crit already gives 7,5 % heal crits. I find myself now both adequate dps wise, and still enjoy the skill group buff. I haven't done extensive parsing, but a wizard guildy told me that there was very visible returns, getting values on ice nova in group with me that she couldn't get out of raids usually.I don't suffer much misses either, when our zerker cries when he doesn't have a warden or templar in his group to buff his skills and in def stance.<div></div>

[JoarAddam]

<P>dangit.... you guys are gonna make me spend another 10 plat.</P>

[Baelor_xev]

<P>I'm only 67, but currently 448 int, sta, wis.  The trouble I'm having is keeping aggro in xp groups.  Group and single taunt are M2 & ad3 respectively.  Its annoying enough that I was thinking about dumping sta for the hate in str.  I wonder if my group buff is increasing groupmate dps enough that they are getting even more aggro.</P> <P> </P> <P>-bae</P>

[Danimal24]

<P>I wasted a respec going from STR 45888 INT 448 to pickup melee crits. I swapped back after one zone. I cannot play without the 10% casting time reduction anymore, I felt like I was playing underwater. I know some of you are gonna say, "It's only 10%!!" But it felt like a huge difference to me and I couldn't get over it. Plus, hammer ground was kinda lame imo..crap for damage and I dont seem to get interupted often enough to make it worthwhile to me. Also, I like my deathmarch being ready every 2:19 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh yeah, with my troub along, casting times are even faster and jesters cap before DM every other time = yum.</P> <P>As far as batle leadership, I don't raid with my SK anymore but have KoS fabled gear and all masters, so tanking all the instances in offensive stance isnt usually an issue so I dont really see the point of it.</P> <P>I do like the hate line so far as i was tired of my taunts being resisted seemingly half the time. I am however curious how it is going to play out with the new aggression skill or w/e it is called. I may use the free respec to go over to reaver and just not worry about bringing a healer along any more..SK, Troub, Swash, Warlock, Wizzy..meh, ok a Fury too for Vim why not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[AziBam]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baelor_xev wrote:<BR> <P>I'm only 67, but currently 448 int, sta, wis.  The trouble I'm having is keeping aggro in xp groups.  Group and single taunt are M2 & ad3 respectively.  Its annoying enough that I was thinking about dumping sta for the hate in str.  I wonder if my group buff is increasing groupmate dps enough that they are getting even more aggro.</P> <P> </P> <P>-bae</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I like this setup.  I can't recall who first posted this method (maybe Chimpnoodle long, long ago) but after using your taunts, follow up with your fastest casting CAs.  I have rearranged my hotbars with taunts then CAs/spells in order of casting speed.  Since most of our fast cast abilities are CAs rather than spells the melee crits play a bigger role with this method as well.  If you have your abilities at a reasonably high lvl (A3+) you should have few problems with aggro.  If you don't have much in the way of A3s then it's time to harvest for the spongy loam and buy masters as you can afford them.  When you lose aggro hit DM, HT, rescue, or worst case FD. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Danimal it's too bad you didn't give this more than one zone.  Losing the 10% certainly was a bit of a shock when I first switched but you do get used to it.  (I did)  I think of this setup as exchanging raw damage with low efficiency to slighly lower damage but much higher efficiency.  I don't have the 10% reduction anymore so I can't pull it up right now to recheck, but I recall examining Insidious Promise and realizing that it would overwrite the last tic of threat if you cast it as soon as it would refresh.  Insidious promise has a larger amount of threat per taunt than any of the other tanks single target taunts if allowed to run its full course.  (Yes, it sucks not having the burst on the front end that other tanks have so not making the argument that it is good...just what we are stuck with.)  If we overwrite the final tic we lose that efficiency and are burning more power for less results in the long run.  Same thing for resists, parrys etc.  If fewer of our attacks bounce off the mobs we are more efficient in our damage and power consumption.  I normally stay in the upper half of my power from one pull to the next even with casting and pulling fast...(hate it when I engage the mobs so fast that I look down after body pulling and realize I don't have any taunts refreshed)  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Anyway, I know there are a lot of people that love the 10% reductions but I've really come to enjoy the 4,4,8 STA, WIS, INT setup.     </DIV>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<P>I'm so tempted to go back to wis line for the 34 to disruption. Anyone out there using this noticing less resists ?</P> <P> </P> <P>As far as str int line goes i went all the way to the bottom of Str line and really like it, been right up there on dps using axe of overlord 2 with 41 haste self buffed and 20 dps from adornments</P>

[Xanoth]

you definatly get less resists with WIS especially in def stance... but the main place i had resist issues was CMM tbh when i choce my respec, and i've not been back snice because it lags so bad i'd rather go play a flash game like dice wars than waste my time in there. when clearing to the mob to finish the cloak quest in the x2/x4 area up stairs we had 10s of lag, i could run three laps around a mob before the next one second of comabat played out.still i've not respeced again yet but dont think 448 str is as useful as 448 STA due to lost spell haste the melee haste probably doesn't get the full use.

[Margen]

<P>While haste is nice to have, we are a class that doesn't get the full benifit from it vs straight Melee classes.  Its one reason i didn't go down the str line.   Don't get me wrong its better to have haste then not have it, but I prefer the 28pct Melee crit with spell crits and now using the wisdom buff and of course spell crits.</P> <P>Its just that with our spells, and especially with a faster weapon, we just don't get as much bang for a buck with haste as we do with a dps mod.  Now if they changed the str line to either a dps mod or a double attack, I would be all over it.</P>

[Xanoth]

personally i want haste for increased proc chance, nothing else

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<DIV>Yeah it sounds nice, but i dont know if i can go without my 10% reductions on recasts, Its a tossup between more spells with more resists, or less spells with less resists</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For raiding, the mobs can be debuffed by others, and with the 10% recast means i get more spells in, The +34 disruption -etc  would be good for soloing, and i suppose great for groups and raid groups</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe your right, i should lose the 10% recast in favour of +34 to skills, might go respec now, let you all know how i go</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for the record i had  4 - 7 - 8 - 6 - 8  STR  and 4 - 4 - 8 INT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>EDIT:  ok i just respecced, not enough time to test, server down soon, but in offensive my Disruption is 442 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  hopefully a few more spells will land now</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:56 AM</span>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

As a rough guideline of our damage potential:40% spells20% combat arts20% autoattack10% pet10% procsDepending on your skills, AA and gear these numbers fluxuate, but it's a good starting point.This means that 30% of our damage is affected by haste (autoattack and procs). The WIS line affects 60% of our damage (spells and autoattack). For all I know it also affects our combat arts and procs, but I've seen no convincing evidence of this. It's up to you to decide which is more helpful or more effective.<div></div>

[Axxon]

<P>I have been planning 4/4/8 STA 4/4/8 WIS 5/4/8 INT  for quite a while, since reading it here and liking what I read.  I am currently 4/4/4 STA and 4/4/3 INT, and planning on getting all 3 to 4/4/4 before filling out the 8's in each of the three.  </P> <P>What I do not understand - and maybe it's because I have not gone down the WIS line yet - is this:  what does Gnarkill mean when he says battle leadership negates our defensive stance?  </P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR>As a rough guideline of our damage potential:<BR><BR>40% spells<BR>20% combat arts<BR>20% autoattack<BR>10% pet<BR>10% procs<BR><BR>Depending on your skills, AA and gear these numbers fluxuate, but it's a good starting point.<BR><BR>This means that 30% of our damage is affected by haste (autoattack and procs). The WIS line affects 60% of our damage (spells and autoattack). For all I know it also affects our combat arts and procs, but I've seen no convincing evidence of this. It's up to you to decide which is more helpful or more effective.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The Wisdom line will have some effect on CA's and Procs, reason being you have better chance to hit with your CA's and the mob should have less chance of resisting the procs.  </P> <P>Which will effect damage more the Str line or wisdom I don't know, but one thing to remember also you improve the entire group with the wisdom line, group members should miss less and have less resist.</P>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>Drakkonius wrote:<P>What I do not understand - and maybe it's because I have not gone down the WIS line yet - is this:  what does Gnarkill mean when he says battle leadership negates our defensive stance?  </P><hr></blockquote>that the bonuses given by battle leadership to our offencive skills are greater than the penalties from our defencive stance

[Axxon]

Gotcha.  So you stay in defensive for the most part, enjoying those benefits, without hamstringing your DPS.  That it?

[Margen]

Your dps in defensive will be less in offensive, with or without BL.  But, the difference isn't as great and when in defensive you won't have as huge a drop.

[Xanoth]

kinda, just means your penalised less in defencive stance. obviously in offencive stance these bonuses stack so are even more better off in that sense too.

[Axxon]

OK  - got it now.  I must be dense today or something.  Thanks guys!

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<DIV>just wish the servers would come up, so i can test it</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i think unrest is in too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Listat666]

<P>I am 70 SK on oasis, and i have to agree totally. I have tested all the aa lines in the crusader tree and what i finally laned in was stam 4/4/8 wisd 4/4/8 and int 4/4/8. I have absolutly no problems holding aggro now aswell since i went down the hate tree and maxxed out all hate related SK aa's, aswell siphon hate is UBER!!. Now my gear aint the best, lotta claymore/blackcoat and various other epic drops are in my loot table. and i am still having no problems really tanking any mobs in a grp or raid setup. even tho my mitig is only at 4400 in def stance, despoil siphon adds a nice amount and of course with grp buffs i get tio about 5100 miti. What i find is all of are heal procs and siphons really offset are lower mitigation. So basically i can honestly say SOE gave us SK's some loviong in this recent expansion......ALL HAIL THE DARK LORDS!!</P> <P>Listat Shevi`it <70 shadowknight></P> <P>Champion of the Shadow</P>

[MrDiz]

Does noone rate the end ability in str? I would have thought 10% more spell damage, + 10% more healing would have been a good boost.

[Margen]

<DIV>its a nice boost, and to be honest its the only end ability I found apealing.  But since we are limited to 50 points, you have to make choices.  The haste really doesn't help me that much compared to the crits to both spells and melee for my style of play.  I would like the passive hate gain, but again I figured I would do better with the extra dps from the crits.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all a matter of choice, some people love the Agi line for their style of play but since its so mount dependent I really don't care for it, same with haste from the str line.  When i raid I am usaully getting haste at 88pct, sometimes up to 120pct.  So the extra haste doesn't help me.  So I choose not to spend all the points to get to the point where I could get the 10pct reduction.</DIV>

[MrDiz]

doubt ill be raiding with my sk tho so im thinking of ways to maximise self heal to be honest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thought of wisdom line tho.

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Margen wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Milaga wrote:As a rough guideline of our damage potential:40% spells20% combat arts20% autoattack10% pet10% procsDepending on your skills, AA and gear these numbers fluxuate, but it's a good starting point.This means that 30% of our damage is affected by haste (autoattack and procs). The WIS line affects 60% of our damage (spells and autoattack). For all I know it also affects our combat arts and procs, but I've seen no convincing evidence of this. It's up to you to decide which is more helpful or more effective.<div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The Wisdom line will have some effect on CA's and Procs, reason being you have better chance to hit with your CA's and the mob should have less chance of resisting the procs.  </p> <p>Which will effect damage more the Str line or wisdom I don't know, but one thing to remember also you improve the entire group with the wisdom line, group members should miss less and have less resist.</p><hr></blockquote>This was something I wasn't sure of. If you're using a crushing weapon, does your crushing skill also apply to your chance of hitting?I also was not sure about procs. Are they based off of disruption? This makes sense for the magical ones and our buffs but what about weapons that proc slashing damage?</div>

[Boke]

pitty ur  new sig sucks put it back to the old one it was better <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<DIV>aww... done <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Anca0202]

<DIV>Ok correct me if I am wrong but weren't our taunts Disruption based previous to today?  Now they are aggretion based but our battle leadership has no boost to aggretion.  I think this should be fixed.  We were able to taunt better with it and now we get no benefit.  That would mean that we kinda got ninja nerfed.....</DIV>

[t0iletduck]

I raid 4 times a week and serve multiple roles for my guild. I sometimes MT, add/off tank, and sometimes I get to be in the caster dps group and mash buttons <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I would like to share my toughts so far with AA's. INT 4-4-8STA 4-1 STR 4-4-4-8-1And im loving it. I also have the siphon hate from the SK specific AA tree. My thoughts:STR line: I really like the 10% passive hate gain from Idolic Axe and I LOVE the 10% reduction in cast times and re-use timers. That means all goodies like RT, Death March, Tap Veins etc etc are easier to get off without interupts and recast that much faster. You can even get the re-use timers reduced even more with the SK specific AA's. STA line: I'm only invested in Hammer Ground just for the extra AoE and the stun. Mostly useful for non raid scenarios. INT line: What can I say about 68% spell crits? Seeing those bold orange numbers over the mobs head makes me a happy camper. More DPS=more fun and more agro. Siphon Hate: The 3% doesn't sound like much, but I've pulled agro without taunting against the orange names in Inner Sanctum. I was in the caster DPS group with a conj, necro, wizzie, troub, fury. I was mashing buttons trying to dps as much as I could, but was really surprised to get agro without a swash/assassin using me as a hate dump. This can help keep your casters from getting agro, but be ready to FD if the mob turns on you when you are in DPS mode. I've been MT for all of labs, lyceum, and most of HoS and I had very little agro issues aside from the occasional early fusion and the brigand double up combo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> AE agro seems to be especially easy to hold, but I didn't have a warlock to compete with. I think the passive hate from Idolic Axe and Siphon hate helped me keep agro for 100% of the fight vs Vilucidae in Lyceum, as in his last stance below 25% it becomes hard to land debuffs and spells on him. I'm still trying to decide what to do with the last 25 points from the SK tree. Reaver is looking good...but im sold on hate. The changes to SK's make us more viable as MT's (shhh don't tell the guardians...) and im having more fun than ever. I can't wait to MT some EoF zones, but right now our raid leader serves that role. I can't complain though. He is a guardian in better gear, really knows his stuff, and has that dang tower of stone and 12 second parry hehe<div></div>

[ssythe]

<DIV>I was under the impression the hate siphon was 3% per group member no? or is it 3% total?</DIV>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This was something I wasn't sure of. If you're using a crushing weapon, does your crushing skill also apply to your chance of hitting?<BR><BR>I also was not sure about procs. Are they based off of disruption? This makes sense for the magical ones and our buffs but what about weapons that proc slashing damage?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The skill does effect your chance to hit, so higher crushing skill, higher chance to hit.  </P> <P>Procs are a bit more complicated from my understanding.  Our spell procs are disruption based, so higher disruption means less resist. As for a proc for slashing, the way I understand it is if you hit, and the weapon does it proc it hits (someone can correct me if I am mistaken,but I think thats correct).</P> <P>On another post, from what i've read and seen in game our taunts are based on two resist factors, first is mental for the hate portion itself and the second is disease based for the damage portion on our single tgt.  So the wisdom line really didn't help in that area due to the taunts went against the mobs mental resist vs the taunt level.  Hopefully the changes in aggression will help on resist rates.</P>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Thanks.I seem to remember rarely missing with my CAs since they've all got really nice hit bonuses for Master Is. Venemous slam is 40% easier I think.I have another question about the changes to our taunts but I'll put it in another thread so I don't derail this one.<div></div>