SK issues

[Demoniac]

<blockquote><hr>Diernes wrote:<div> Here is the problem, player perception. No offense sir but you have a very outdated view on the performance of the SK class. yes awhile back (DOF era) Shadowknights were severly lacking. Its no longer the case. A well played Shadowknight is now one of the best agro tanks in the entire game. We have very respectable dps when played well, and alot of utility which augments our group. The agro problems really became a thing of the past with the Death march revamp. and with the new changes proposed I only see us getting stronger.Now, as Ive said quite a bit recently, a big thing with the SK class its a class which requires alot of knowedge and finese with your button mashing. Its a class which requires alot of know how and skill, sadly the majority of the SK population really doesnt have a clue how to maximise their potential. I talk to alot of SK's in game and Im continually horrified that many dont have the basic rudiments of the class down.... Its amazing that so many dont realise that our lifetap ward can be cast on ourselves or that our debuffs should be active at all times. I even had one the other day who claimed our pets sucked because they couldnt take any hits......  . <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>granted its not until T6 until we really come into our own, but we are monsters when it happends....Go peruse the SK boards for awhile, you will find many posts that demonstrate what I SK in the right hands can do.Quite a few zerkers even posting on the forums these days that SK's out DPS them</div><p>Message Edited by Diernes on <span class="date_text">10-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div></div>Just in case, first of all... I wasn't trying to attack the SK class. It was a great class in eq1. in my personal opinion, I think SK are no longer needed in kos.I wasn't trying to bring class envy into this forum. zekers, they made a lot of powerful than you SKs. let's talk about group sets. most of the groups, they designed to kill a heroic mob in 30 seconds.  zekers they got better taunt. better stats, better buffs ( like str and regen buff ). they do better dps. better AE attack.. yes, I do agree that sk can do dm, fd, they can evac. they do have a lot of debuffs, they do better utilities... but if I have an option to choose an sk or a zeker, I will get a zeker. faster kill, better aggro.for a raid... I do have some raiding experance, as far as I know... Well, I am sorry I have to say the truth. I think any class they replace a SK. why? let's take a look the strangth and weakness...1. dps, if we looking for a dps fighter, I would have to say zeker. they got have very strong dps, a lot of stronger than SK. specially for AE mob. even guardian can do better dps than a sk ( it's the buckler line AA ). no matter what SKs use 1 hander or 2 hander, you people just can't do that much dps. but one thing for sure.. you people do better dps than a pally. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span>2. aggro, Guardian, zeker, pally they all got better aggro than an SK,  during a raid, all we need is fast aggro... after the tank goes down, or the adds pop. the raid leader used to say grab it as fast as you can. definally he's not talking to an sk. it's not like give 5 seconds to build aggro then I will do something like dps call. we don't have the time.  it might work in a pick up raid. like everyone doing 400-500 dps...that's my point. Taunt over time that's a totally waste ( personal opinion )3. debuffs, can you people list any unique debuff that sk has it only,and it has to be put it on the mob? any debuffs?? I do believe that every single class has 1 or 2 awesome debuff. even templar can do - 1000+ melee damage debuff. sk class should be the best debuffer in all fighters. are you guys doing better debuffs than a shaman?? better debuffs than a chanter?? better debuffs than a brigand?? or even the same?? I bet the answer is no. you guys just underpowered compare to the other best debuff classes.4. buffs... well, sks does has some buffs. any buffs are like sooo hardcore, so important... people can't live without it ( for instance, troubador -40% aggro ) I think the answer is no...they are all situational.5. special abilities, some people will say i can do lifetap. I have leech hitpoints proc... I can fd people. so you tell a gnome wizard, if you grab the aggro, i am gonna fake death you. i bet the gnome will give his middle finger to you and disappear reallllly fast.over all, I have to say, is there anything you sks are so proud of it. or any shining points? there was a thread talking about why a ranger doesn't really need it in a raid. the question is if you can bring an assassin why bother to get a ranger? same thing here... no strength, that's the weakness...

[Wendingo]

<P>You weren't trying to attack the SK class, ROFL.  You must get into a lot of RL trouble if your interpersonal skills in person are akin to those on a board.  That is an attack if I ever saw one whether it was intended that way or not.  "You suck, no offense."  Please.</P> <P>The demeaning tone aside, a lot of people here will try to argue the raid point with you, but I will not.  I tend to agree that ON AVERAGE an SK is at a bit of a disadvantage on the aggro side compared to other fighter types.  However, if you are taking guardians for DPS over SKs you are making a mistake and have played with some pretty poor SK's.  There may be reasons to take a guard over and SK, but if that is part of your calculus you need to change it.  One thing you are missing is that an SK can perform a lot of different functions.  So an advantage is versatility.  If you cannot build the "perfect raid" an SK is a good person to have in a variety of rolls.</P> <P>Also needs to be said, THE GAME IS MORE THAN RAIDING.  SKs solo better than any other fighter class.  SKs also make very good group tanks, especially against groups of mobs.  As I see it, you cannot be good at everything.  We got chinced a little in unique raid contribution, its true, but overall we are a really fun class to play.  </P> <P>(BTW, I played a SK as my main in EQ1, starting at the release of the Kunark expansion and until I got EP access and got bored with all the raiding.  We were no more popular for raids there than we are here and less popular for groups by far.  EQ2 is equal on the first and way superior on the second IMO).</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Wendingo on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 PM</span>

[Demoniac]

Well, you missed a lot of things.. the post is here. I was invited to come here and discuss about it... I didn't say anything about you guys suck. i mean you people need a lot of love.http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=115828&page=2<div></div>Well, I don't disagree with some of speech, sir. it's fine if you don't do raid. but I have to say you missed a lot of fun in the game. 1. We were no more popular for raids there than we are here and less popular for groups by far.That's a completely wrong statement. SK are the best puller in eq1 after SoV released. some mobs you have to get an SK puller, monks just don't have enough hp, they can't take hits. SK are the best pvp class before they nerf SK so bad. SK are the best hate aggro class in the game even better than pally( pally stuns, sk fears both of them are the best group tank in the game) that's the basic. btw, I never play an sk in eq1. or just tell i play the wrong game.2. SKs solo better than any other fighter class.How do you know?? I think a monk can solo better than an SK. you can see a lot of solo monks in sos. but I've never seen an sk there before. zekers, they do solo faster than sks as well...As a level 70 inquisitor, i can solo 4 level 62 ^^^ drake in Breeding ground in TT. can do that as well? 3. However, if you are taking guardians for DPS over SKs you are making a mistake and have played with some pretty poor SK's.  There may be reasons to take a guard over and SK,Well, if I said that. I do have my prove. most of the guard ( raiding guild ) can do 1k dps when they tanking. i would have to ask you people sks can you do that? Note: hit in the front and hit the back that's totally different story. your ca will get parried. your attacks can be blocked. i already mentioned it. it's the buckler line AA. definally you didn't understand what does it mean. and even though you can beat a guard.. by how much?? even my inquisitor can do 1200 dps single target. so what's the point to bring an sk?? so what's your prove??well if you take a look at the link, you will understand that i wasn't trying to point my finger to you people and tell you suck... what am I saying here is you people need a lot of love and sony didn't balance the class well. they need to get more attention to your SKs.

[Wendingo]

<P>Wow.  You cannot see how you are being insulting?  I think you are just baiting the community, but OK if you say so.</P> <P>Well, I don't disagree with some of speech, sir. it's fine if you don't do raid. but I have to say you missed a lot of fun in the game. </P> <P><BR>Did my share of raiding bud.  Do not do it any more becuase I do not have the time to dedicate to a raiding guild.  I do not do something if I cannot do it right.  <BR><BR>"That's a completely wrong statement. SK are the best puller in eq1 after SoV released. some mobs you have to get an SK puller, monks just don't have enough hp, they can't take hits. SK are the best pvp class before they nerf SK so bad. SK are the best hate aggro class in the game even better than pally( pally stuns, sk fears both of them are the best group tank in the game) that's the basic. btw, I never play an sk in eq1. or just tell i play the wrong game."</P> <P>Not sure what you are trying to say there at the end.  In EQ1 you were always better off with a monk puller if the monk was any good.  If you were pulling something and the monk did not have enough HP either the monk was too low a level or did not know how to play a monk.  I am not saying SK's were bad, but we were not as good as the monks if for no other reason than our FD was not infallible like the monks.  Also, nothing in EQ could out-tank a warrior.   That was one of the flaws with the game.  The "holy trinity" of War-Cleric-Chanter.  If you were playing with a warrior in EQ1 that could not hold aggro he REALLY did not know what he was doing.  As for the "best hate aggro" the SK did have an advantage there, but not enough for people to want one more than a warrior, or if you were raiding two warriors.  I played one to level 65 and was in a pretty high-end guild.   As for fear, it was only great for aggro on mobs that were immune to it.  Granted a lot were end game, but folks would still prefer War then Pally then SK for their plate tank.</P> <P>2. SKs solo better than any other fighter class.<BR><BR>How do you know?? I think a monk can solo better than an SK. you can see a lot of solo monks in sos. but I've never seen an sk there before. zekers, they do solo faster than sks as well...As a level 70 inquisitor, i can solo 4 level 62 ^^^ drake in Breeding ground in TT. can do that as well? <BR></P> <P>Well, I've played every class just about to level 40 or higher except the pally.  An SK can out-solo any fighter class, especially after the SKs get tap veins at level 53.  It is not even close.  If you have never played an SK, how do YOU know what they can do?  Zerkers do not solo faster than SKs, that is just a silly statement.  How are you healing?  You may be able to take a single encounter down faster, but you are going to have a lot more downtime than an SK.  Even a lousy SK with a limp will solo faster than any other fighter class.  As for the inquisitor, last I checked they are not a fighter class and I am flat out certain that an SK can solo better than one.  Assuming you can do that, how long does it take?  How do you keep from running out of power?<BR><BR>3. However, if you are taking guardians for DPS over SKs you are making a mistake and have played with some pretty poor SK's.  There may be reasons to take a guard over and SK,<BR><BR>Well, if I said that. I do have my prove. most of the guard ( raiding guild ) can do 1k dps when they tanking. i would have to ask you people sks can you do that? Note: hit in the front and hit the back that's totally different story. your ca will get parried. your attacks can be blocked. i already mentioned it. it's the buckler line AA. definally you didn't understand what does it mean. and even though you can beat a guard.. by how much?? even my inquisitor can do 1200 dps single target. so what's the point to bring an sk?? so what's your prove??</P> <P>It would appear you are talking level 70.  I will defer to level 70 SKs on what dps they exactly can do, but since you admit we can out dps a guard later and just ask "by how much" I'll leave it at that.  Again on the inquisitor I doubt that is sustained, but whatever.  I am quite positive we can out dps inquisitors.  As for the AA, you must be playing with SK's that do not have any and comparing to a maxed out guardian.  Our AA lines do need some love and will get it with EoF (or at least that seems to be the buzz) An SK that has gone down the INT line to 8 points in the spell crit can outdo the guardian with buckler.  No question.  </P> <P><BR>well if you take a look at the link, you will understand that i wasn't trying to point my finger to you people and tell you suck... what am I saying here is you people need a lot of love and sony didn't balance the class well. they need to get more attention to your SKs.<BR></P> <P>Looked at the link.  Still say you are baiting.  Whatever you were trying to do you said "you suck" some other people said "no we do not" and you said "I've never actually played an SK and I refuse to play with them, but oh yes, you definitely suck, its Sony's fault".  I will sell you a clue for 2 plat if you cannot see how that is not empathizing. </P> <P>I must say that you profess to know an awful lot about SKs for someone who will not group with one and who belongs to a guild that does not have any.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Wendingo on <SPAN class=date_text>10-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:44 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Wendingo on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 AM</span>

[Norrsken]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote: <DIV><BR><BR>Here is the problem, player perception. No offense sir but you have a very outdated view on the performance of the SK class. yes awhile back (DOF era) Shadowknights were severly lacking. Its no longer the case. A well played Shadowknight is now one of the best agro tanks in the entire game. We have very respectable dps when played well, and alot of utility which augments our group.<BR><BR>The agro problems really became a thing of the past with the Death march revamp. and with the new changes proposed I only see us getting stronger.<BR><BR>Now, as Ive said quite a bit recently, a big thing with the SK class its a class which requires alot of knowedge and finese with your button mashing. Its a class which requires alot of know how and skill, sadly the majority of the SK population really doesnt have a clue how to maximise their potential. I talk to alot of SK's in game and Im continually horrified that many dont have the basic rudiments of the class down.... Its amazing that so many dont realise that our lifetap ward can be cast on ourselves or that our debuffs should be active at all times. I even had one the other day who claimed our pets sucked because they couldnt take any hits......  . <SPAN>:smileyindifferent:</SPAN><BR><BR>granted its not until T6 until we really come into our own, but we are monsters when it happends....<BR><BR>Go peruse the SK boards for awhile, you will find many posts that demonstrate what I SK in the right hands can do.<BR><BR>Quite a few zerkers even posting on the forums these days that SK's out DPS them<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Diernes on <SPAN class=date_text>10-25-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:05 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just in case, first of all... I wasn't trying to attack the SK class. It was a great class in eq1. in my personal opinion, I think SK are no longer needed in kos.<BR><BR><BR>I wasn't trying to bring class envy into this forum. zekers, they made a lot of powerful than you SKs. let's talk about group sets. most of the groups, they designed to kill a heroic mob in 30 seconds.  zekers they got better taunt. better stats, better buffs ( like str and regen buff ). they do better dps. better AE attack.. yes, I do agree that sk can do dm, fd, they can evac. they do have a lot of debuffs, they do better utilities... but if I have an option to choose an sk or a zeker, I will get a zeker. faster kill, better aggro.<BR><BR>for a raid... I do have some raiding experance, as far as I know... Well, I am sorry I have to say the truth. I think any class they replace a SK. why? let's take a look the strangth and weakness...<BR><BR>1. dps, if we looking for a dps fighter, I would have to say zeker. they got have very strong dps, a lot of stronger than SK. specially for AE mob. even guardian can do better dps than a sk ( it's the buckler line AA ). no matter what SKs use 1 hander or 2 hander, you people just can't do that much dps. but one thing for sure.. you people do better dps than a pally. <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:<BR><BR></SPAN><BR>2. aggro, Guardian, zeker, pally they all got better aggro than an SK,  during a raid, all we need is fast aggro... after the tank goes down, or the adds pop. the raid leader used to say grab it as fast as you can. definally he's not talking to an sk. it's not like give 5 seconds to build aggro then I will do something like dps call. we don't have the time.  it might work in a pick up raid. like everyone doing 400-500 dps...that's my point. Taunt over time that's a totally waste ( personal opinion )<BR><BR><BR>3. debuffs, can you people list any unique debuff that sk has it only,and it has to be put it on the mob? any debuffs?? I do believe that every single class has 1 or 2 awesome debuff. even templar can do - 1000+ melee damage debuff. sk class should be the best debuffer in all fighters. are you guys doing better debuffs than a shaman?? better debuffs than a chanter?? better debuffs than a brigand?? or even the same?? I bet the answer is no. you guys just underpowered compare to the other best debuff classes.<BR><BR><BR>4. buffs... well, sks does has some buffs. any buffs are like sooo hardcore, so important... people can't live without it ( for instance, troubador -40% aggro ) I think the answer is no...they are all situational.<BR><BR><BR>5. special abilities, some people will say i can do lifetap. I have leech hitpoints proc... I can fd people. so you tell a gnome wizard, if you grab the aggro, i am gonna fake death you. i bet the gnome will give his middle finger to you and disappear reallllly fast.<BR><BR><BR>over all, I have to say, is there anything you sks are so proud of it. or any shining points? there was a thread talking about why a ranger doesn't really need it in a raid. the question is if you can bring an assassin why bother to get a ranger? same thing here... no strength, that's the weakness...<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1. SKs outdps zerkers. HAve a look around them here boards.</P> <P>2. I and many other sks on the pvp servers have no problems whatsoever to keep aggro. In raids or groups. In groups, I actually end up as nr 1-3 on the dps parse as well. And 1-2 on heals. Beat that mr warrior. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Read up on death march)</P> <P>3. No unique debuffs. But we do get a spiffy wis debuff, an AE mit debuff for 1600, and a disease debuff. Not much, and not special, though, no class really get something anyone else doesnt have.</P> <P>4. Death march. Best there is.</P> <P>5. The special ability of the sk is the survivability and their pretty much awesome adaptability.<BR>If you do not like those two, you will not like sks.</P>

[G1Joe]

<DIV>Ive read some crap posts but this is just funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do you raid with any geared/mastered out SK's? especially since DM change?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR><BR>2. SKs solo better than any other fighter class.<BR><BR>How do you know?? I think a monk can solo better than an SK. you can see a lot of solo monks in sos. but I've never seen an sk there before. zekers, they do solo faster than sks as well...As a level 70 inquisitor, i can solo 4 level 62 ^^^ drake in Breeding ground in TT. can do that as well? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why more Monks/Bruisers in SoS .. because they can easy get there with feign death .. thats simply all.  The rest is simply equipment, our bruiser can't even solo the first named in the nest who is a piece of cake for my SK and does maybe 2/3 of my dps because he has not that much masters. </P> <P>Zerkers ? I often farm Gazer Isle .. from time to time there are also some Zerkers there but normally i clear a 2 temples while a zerker makes 1 :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[Ep]

"1. SKs outdps zerkers. Have a look around them here boards."Thats pretty unlikely. i won't put mt parses in there, since when i mt i'm always top 1-3 b/c of reactives/ds and stuff.if i am in the role of dps my sk's won't beat me, or they will but i'll always consistantly be higher. Here's the thing my sk's are great, we're all in dt/raid zone gear. But i'm spec'd for tanking. All my aa's are spec'd with mt tanking in mind, and when i offtank/dps i still top my sk's, who i'm sure are pure dps, battlemages. Don't get me wrong they parse extremely high. Just that i cannot validate the point that sk's outdps zerkers, it's a high improbability. Especially since the other berserker is spec'd for dps, none of the sk's can even touch where he goes in terms of dps.in closing if i can beat/match my sk's on parses, while we're all dps non mt, and my aa's are specificially geared towards mt'in/aggro, while i'm sure the sk's are dps aa'd battlemages, it's unlikely sk's outdps zerkers.<div></div>

[Xanoth]

must admit my experience is that zerkers are practically T1 DPS at the moment. being able to hit 2k DPS quite often.I can get about 1.3k dps single target (deathtoll gazer), probably more if i was DPS spected, guild zerker can consistantly beat that. bruiser being specialists in that field score around 1.6k + when stuff is going right for them.So i'd say SK and zerker are pretty close DPS wise depening on the player, but zerkers imo can go a little higher.I still feel SKs are a little lacking, but nothing game breaking. Hopefully EoF and the new AAs will level the playing field a little more.<p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[Demoniac]

<div><blockquote><hr>roxer2b wrote:<div></div><p>1. SKs outdps zerkers. HAve a look around them here boards.</p> <p>2. I and many other sks on the pvp servers have no problems whatsoever to keep aggro. In raids or groups. In groups, I actually end up as nr 1-3 on the dps parse as well. And 1-2 on heals. Beat that mr warrior. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Read up on death march)</p> <p>3. No unique debuffs. But we do get a spiffy wis debuff, an AE mit debuff for 1600, and a disease debuff. Not much, and not special, though, no class really get something anyone else doesnt have.</p> <p>4. Death march. Best there is.</p> <p>5. The special ability of the sk is the survivability and their pretty much awesome adaptability.If you do not like those two, you will not like sks.</p><hr></blockquote>1. I don't think so. our zeker doing 1500 dps zone wild in lab 3 month ago, maybe 4 month ago. that's a brutal scout dps. that's what i mean. he did about 1700-2100 dps on those group of 3 mobs almost every single fight. I've seen some sks they used to do 800-1000 dps during the raid. they got the same level gear. it could be that they are doing different job that I don't know. zekers they are going stright, just doing dps that's all. sks they have to do debuffs. I am not sure after that, our sk left the guild.2. i do have a char in naggy server.. but i used to stay level 28 ganking those green people lol... well, sk is pretty cool in pvp... I guess that's why you people get punished so much. Well, playing in a pvp server that's something else. you have to get the player track up all the time. you ain't focusing on killing mobs, you focusing on the other hostile players. I didn't mean the sk class is not powerful enough in pvp, it's a cool class in pvp. but in a none-pvp server they ain't really that good and need some love.3. now i see the point. 1600 ae decrease mitigation that's just awesome <span>:smileywink:4. my question is how does it work in the raid? I am not sure. so increase intell. it looks cool, most of casters they need itell. but pretty much most of them maxed it already. increase dps? why not just get a coercer increase 74% dps? that's a permanent buff,they have buff permanent intells as well. for the immune mind ae. I would imagin how cool it is for matron. 5. well, the only thing I like sks that's harm touch and snare the rest of them i think they are pretty lamed. and it's too hard to play as a good sk.</span></div>

[Demoniac]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xanoth wrote:must admit my experience is that zerkers are practically T1 DPS at the moment. being able to hit 2k DPS quite often.I can get about 1.3k dps single target (deathtoll gazer), probably more if i was DPS spected, guild zerker can consistantly beat that. bruiser being specialists in that field score around 1.6k + when stuff is going right for them.So i'd say SK and zerker are pretty close DPS wise depening on the player, but zerkers imo can go a little higher.I still feel SKs are a little lacking, but nothing game breaking. Hopefully EoF and the new AAs will level the playing field a little more.<p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class="date_text">10-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:00 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>this is the right answer... zeker they are tire1 dps, massive dps on ae mobs. bruiser they got increase mitigation 1900 in 3 mins or something higher. that means they can have like 6k+ mitigation during 3 mins with his 70%+ avoidance, and it's a dps class :  )  that's something you can't beat for sure<font color="#ff0000">I still feel SKs are a little lacking, but nothing game breaking. Hopefully EoF and the new AAs will level the playing field a little more.<font color="#ffffff">that's exactly what i feel. both of you zeker and sk, you guys are offensive. you people should do the same dps. </font></font></div>

[Xanoth]

SKs have a bit of utlity that will drop their own DPS if not used at the most opertune moment (during spell haste or when runing in). to break 1k DPS single target you really need a fair bit of focus and to reduce your use of the blessing line (if your not tanking). the main reason zerkers generaly out perform us is that their burst DPS is much better than ours due to open wounds and such. over longer fights the DPS gap isn't as noticable. but generally the shorter the fight the less chance we have to DPS, most of our attacks are a form of DOT.for death march it now gives group casting haste, as well as group int and group DPS. it also generates a fair bit of hate (about 1-2k threat... used to be much higher but seems to have been scaled back a bit). its great in every way for SKs, and offers a little for everyone. even more so with the cap increase due in EoF.

[Coica]

dont feed the trolls!!<div></div>

[Taeolen]

<DIV>Shadowknights suck!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your HPs!</DIV>

[Coica]

Look!! a shiny!! anyone else notice that you can hamerground and sometimes it WILL effect epics? I like crayons.<div></div>

[Eluzay]

<div><blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:<blockquote><hr>Diernes wrote:<div> Here is the problem, player perception. No offense sir but you have a very outdated view on the performance of the SK class. yes awhile back (DOF era) Shadowknights were severly lacking. Its no longer the case. A well played Shadowknight is now one of the best agro tanks in the entire game. We have very respectable dps when played well, and alot of utility which augments our group. The agro problems really became a thing of the past with the Death march revamp. and with the new changes proposed I only see us getting stronger.Now, as Ive said quite a bit recently, a big thing with the SK class its a class which requires alot of knowedge and finese with your button mashing. Its a class which requires alot of know how and skill, sadly the majority of the SK population really doesnt have a clue how to maximise their potential. I talk to alot of SK's in game and Im continually horrified that many dont have the basic rudiments of the class down.... Its amazing that so many dont realise that our lifetap ward can be cast on ourselves or that our debuffs should be active at all times. I even had one the other day who claimed our pets sucked because they couldnt take any hits......  . <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>granted its not until T6 until we really come into our own, but we are monsters when it happends....Go peruse the SK boards for awhile, you will find many posts that demonstrate what I SK in the right hands can do.Quite a few zerkers even posting on the forums these days that SK's out DPS them</div><p>Message Edited by Diernes on <span class="date_text">10-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div></div>Just in case, first of all... I wasn't trying to attack the SK class. It was a great class in eq1. in my personal opinion, I think SK are no longer needed in kos.I wasn't trying to bring class envy into this forum. zekers, they made a lot of powerful than you SKs. let's talk about group sets. most of the groups, they designed to kill a heroic mob in 30 seconds.  zekers they got better taunt. better stats, better buffs ( like str and regen buff ). they do better dps. better AE attack.. yes, I do agree that sk can do dm, fd, they can evac. they do have a lot of debuffs, they do better utilities... but if I have an option to choose an sk or a zeker, I will get a zeker. faster kill, better aggro.for a raid... I do have some raiding experance, as far as I know... Well, I am sorry I have to say the truth. I think any class they replace a SK. why? let's take a look the strangth and weakness...1. dps, if we looking for a dps fighter, I would have to say zeker. they got have very strong dps, a lot of stronger than SK. specially for AE mob. even guardian can do better dps than a sk ( it's the buckler line AA ). no matter what SKs use 1 hander or 2 hander, you people just can't do that much dps. but one thing for sure.. you people do better dps than a pally. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span>2. aggro, Guardian, zeker, pally they all got better aggro than an SK,  during a raid, all we need is fast aggro... after the tank goes down, or the adds pop. the raid leader used to say grab it as fast as you can. definally he's not talking to an sk. it's not like give 5 seconds to build aggro then I will do something like dps call. we don't have the time.  it might work in a pick up raid. like everyone doing 400-500 dps...that's my point. Taunt over time that's a totally waste ( personal opinion )3. debuffs, can you people list any unique debuff that sk has it only,and it has to be put it on the mob? any debuffs?? I do believe that every single class has 1 or 2 awesome debuff. even templar can do - 1000+ melee damage debuff. sk class should be the best debuffer in all fighters. are you guys doing better debuffs than a shaman?? better debuffs than a chanter?? better debuffs than a brigand?? or even the same?? I bet the answer is no. you guys just underpowered compare to the other best debuff classes.4. buffs... well, sks does has some buffs. any buffs are like sooo hardcore, so important... people can't live without it ( for instance, troubador -40% aggro ) I think the answer is no...they are all situational.5. special abilities, some people will say i can do lifetap. I have leech hitpoints proc... I can fd people. so you tell a gnome wizard, if you grab the aggro, i am gonna fake death you. i bet the gnome will give his middle finger to you and disappear reallllly fast.over all, I have to say, is there anything you sks are so proud of it. or any shining points? there was a thread talking about why a ranger doesn't really need it in a raid. the question is if you can bring an assassin why bother to get a ranger? same thing here... no strength, that's the weakness...<hr></blockquote>raiding is for care bears, in pvp SK is the king pvp fighter solo, and second only to zerker in groups (only because our taunts do not HOLD a target on us)... This of course is until T7 where resists are insane (we are the tank mage after all). They are nerfing T7 resists though so that should help a lot on that front.pvp, live it, love it.</div>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:2. SKs solo better than any other fighter class.How do you know?? I think a monk can solo better than an SK. you can see a lot of solo monks in sos. but I've never seen an sk there before. zekers, they do solo faster than sks as well...As a level 70 inquisitor, i can solo 4 level 62 ^^^ drake in Breeding ground in TT. can do that as well? <hr></blockquote>I'm too lazy to respond to the rest of your inane, completely wrong ASSUMPTIONS about the SK class based off of whatever terrible SKs you have grouped with in the past, but this statement is complete garbage.  Soloing 62^^^ green mobs is no challenge worth bragging about, and, while I agree Monks are good soloers as well, as another poster said, it's really only because they can train/feign through zones to kill mobs they want to fast.  They also can't take the hits an SK can and recover as quickly.  Also, monks rely a lot on stuns and such, and if a mob has a lot of HP that they can't burn down fast enough, they have a much harder time.  You brag about killing 4 62^^^s?  Try and solo: Azdalin on Breeding Grounds, The Skywatcher on TT, Ranktukara and Drelakor in ToS, Ancient Unbound Abomination and The Hierodule in Bonemire, with your Zerker or Inquisitor or whatever, and then I might possibly listen to what you have to say about a class that you obviosly don't play and have no clue whatsoever about.  I was able to solo all of those with relative ease on my old SK main, so until you can claim that feat with whatever class you want to try it with, I don't want to hear anything about SKs not being the best solo fighter class hands down.Also, sorry, but there is no possible way that a well geared and AA'd SK should ever get out DPSd by a Guardian or Berserker.  As for snap aggro, Rescue is really the only thing better than Death March right now, and SKs get that as well, so don't come in here to the SK boards talking about how we can't get snap aggro when a raid leader calls for it.  There have been times when our guild's SK was told to pick up spawned adds, hit Death March, and peeled the named off the MT for a few seconds with it, so you really have no leg to stand on with your half-[Removed for Content], baseless attacks on the SK class.  Maybe you're just jealous, or have a vendetta against the class for some other reason, but I don't really care what that reason is, as I'm sure most SKs here don't either, so stop bring this senseless drivel to our class boards because noone cares about your opinion on a class you have never played.</div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<P>1. dps, if we looking for a dps fighter, I would have to say zeker. they got have very strong dps, a lot of stronger than SK. specially for AE mob. even guardian can do better dps than a sk ( it's the buckler line AA ). no matter what SKs use 1 hander or 2 hander, you people just can't do that much dps. but one thing for sure.. you people do better dps than a pally. <SPAN><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>*I'm a raid MT/second tank SK, I'm completly specced for taking a beating. My DPS is quite low...and from what I see Zerkers in equivalent gear and skill levels consistantly parse higher. I don't notice much of a difference between SK and Guard DPS when MTing though. Yes, we do more DPS than a pally. Brawler classes seeem to consistantly out DPS the zerkers though. As MT, I personally don't really care about my DPS as long as I'm still holding aggro and staying alive.</P> <P><BR><BR></SPAN><BR>2. aggro, Guardian, zeker, pally they all got better aggro than an SK,  during a raid, all we need is fast aggro... after the tank goes down, or the adds pop. the raid leader used to say grab it as fast as you can. definally he's not talking to an sk. it's not like give 5 seconds to build aggro then I will do something like dps call. we don't have the time.  it might work in a pick up raid. like everyone doing 400-500 dps...that's my point. Taunt over time that's a totally waste ( personal opinion )</P> <P>*Don't notice much of a difference in Aggro between those classes overall. I notice a lot of encounters where SKs seem to hold aggro better than the others actually, especially in encounters with a lot of stifles/stuns and multi-mobs. A nice chunk of our dammage is Dots (several open AOEs), several HoT taunts, dammage sheilds and Proc hate when hit favor us in those situations. As far as snap aggro goes....when a mob needs to be picked up fast (particularly multi and non-linked)...SKs have the edge since the DM change.<BR><BR><BR>3. debuffs, can you people list any unique debuff that sk has it only,and it has to be put it on the mob? any debuffs?? I do believe that every single class has 1 or 2 awesome debuff. even templar can do - 1000+ melee damage debuff. sk class should be the best debuffer in all fighters. are you guys doing better debuffs than a shaman?? better debuffs than a chanter?? better debuffs than a brigand?? or even the same?? I bet the answer is no. you guys just underpowered compare to the other best debuff classes.</P> <P>*1680 mitigation debuff and ~1k disease debuff are great. The mitigation debuff is encounter wide, and a nice duration (1 min 20). Upper tier debuff for the mitigation. Our STR debuff/self buff is so so, we also have another open AOE  beneficial spell debuff with Doom Judgement. SK are respectable as a debuffer, but that's just an extra benefit of the class.<BR><BR><BR>4. buffs... well, sks does has some buffs. any buffs are like sooo hardcore, so important... people can't live without it ( for instance, troubador -40% aggro ) I think the answer is no...they are all situational.</P> <P>*SK buffs are decent. Nothing game breaking, nothing to complain about. The group lifetap procs are interesting, the self buff dammage procs/WIS/STA/STR ones are nice,and temporary all effect immunity coupled with a massive DPS/casting timer reduction boost is super nice.<BR><BR><BR>5. special abilities, some people will say i can do lifetap. I have leech hitpoints proc... I can fd people. so you tell a gnome wizard, if you grab the aggro, i am gonna fake death you. i bet the gnome will give his middle finger to you and disappear reallllly fast.</P> <P>Lifetaps help a lot in taking some pressure off the healers as MT, 10 sec self stoneskin AA (DA) has saved me/groups/raids more times than I can count, extremely strong snap aggro with an open AOE 50 meter radius (DM)...unrivaled as far as I've seen....especially coupled with 10 sec huge dammage boost and full group immunity (stifle, stun,snare,root, fear..). Fearless AA is useful as well for a couple pulls, even if not really necessary. FD will save the over zealous DPSer and help maintain full DPS. With DM, rescue, FD and harm touch...pretty much 4 rescues..one of which is on a 3 minuted timer. Grave blessing dammage shield is useful to throw on others as well at times. Also, the WIS based defensive stance SKs have is very nice against strong AOE/caster mobs. I find when swapping out resist gear it is easier for me to maintain higher resists while giving up a litle less MIT if I want to stay close or over cap. Few points or not, it is better imo.</P> <P>There is a few raid encounters where I prefer certain tank types over others, but generally I fail to notice any dissadvantage in practice when an SK is tanking them. When grouping, I prefer SK though as tank though. Very strong class....and as far as HPs go....I went fully into the STA line and my STA is capped from gear. Since a lot of the warriors take the AGI or WIS lines or substitute some STA gear for STR or what not.....generally my HP are comparable to other class plate tanks, and are often even higher. Basically, my DPS is lower than a good many SKs, but my resists, avoidance, and HP are most often higher...often considerably so.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>10-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[Demoniac]

<div><blockquote><hr>Razerblaze wrote:<div>  </div><hr></blockquote>Well, I think you misunderstand what i said <span>:smileywink:</span>. I am talking about solo 4 level 62 ^^^ heroic mob at the same time.. I can solo level 72 heroic ^^^ mob that's not a problem. I tried solo 2 level 70 heroic mob at the same time.. but i failed. and I am talking about you run into the mobs grab 4 at the same time, go back, kill all of them all. that's what i mean.. not to solo an single level 62 heroic ^^^ up mob <span>:smileytongue: well, for Azdalin, I can solo this thing with 0 power start. Ranktukara, I tried. he does knockback.. that's all :   ) it takes me a while. skywatcher, I killed him like over 20 times already, they made it harder. but still he's soloable. he hits me like 1k per hit stuns ( too bad I have instantly cure. and it doesn't cost any power. ) I've never tried that abomination before. sorry,  for the hierodule I can't... he's pretty hard. I would like to see how you solo this guy. he shoot arrwos, if you try to root him or snare him. he hits me like 1k, but he's got a lot hps like 100k. just make sure... you talking about that 69 guy standing in front of den of devour right??</span>well, actually, I am not jealous :   ) that's the bigest joke i've ever heard. so why do you reroll a wizard? btw...I am invited to bring the case here<span>:smileywink:</span></div>

[Demoniac]

<div><blockquote><hr>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<hr></blockquote>Thanks.. that makes sence... but i would like to know how do you build up the fast aggro in the raid? i don't really think that taunt over time can do that, cept you have hurricanus bracer, codex greave, and hurricanus bp..</div>

[Wendingo]

<DIV>Razerblaze probably rolled a wiz for the same reason I came back to the SK.  He has been playing since launch and was ready for something new.  My problem is I get bored around 50, not 70 (except with the pure priest classses, they got painful a lot sooner).  Dirge at least I got into the 60's.  I'll tell you what though, the SK is the first one I am looking forward to getting past 60.  I think it is the whole battle mage thing.  It just appeals to me.  I wish I had played an SK first instead of deciding that I should try something new after EQ1.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wendingo on <span class=date_text>10-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 AM</span>

[Nicholai24]

<div><blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:<blockquote><hr>Diernes wrote:<div> Here is the problem, player perception. No offense sir but you have a very outdated view on the performance of the SK class. yes awhile back (DOF era) Shadowknights were severly lacking. Its no longer the case. A well played Shadowknight is now one of the best agro tanks in the entire game. We have very respectable dps when played well, and alot of utility which augments our group. The agro problems really became a thing of the past with the Death march revamp. and with the new changes proposed I only see us getting stronger.Now, as Ive said quite a bit recently, a big thing with the SK class its a class which requires alot of knowedge and finese with your button mashing. Its a class which requires alot of know how and skill, sadly the majority of the SK population really doesnt have a clue how to maximise their potential. I talk to alot of SK's in game and Im continually horrified that many dont have the basic rudiments of the class down.... Its amazing that so many dont realise that our lifetap ward can be cast on ourselves or that our debuffs should be active at all times. I even had one the other day who claimed our pets sucked because they couldnt take any hits......  . <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>granted its not until T6 until we really come into our own, but we are monsters when it happends....Go peruse the SK boards for awhile, you will find many posts that demonstrate what I SK in the right hands can do.Quite a few zerkers even posting on the forums these days that SK's out DPS them</div><p>Message Edited by Diernes on <span class="date_text">10-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div></div>Just in case, first of all... I wasn't trying to attack the SK class. It was a great class in eq1. in my personal opinion, I think SK are no longer needed in kos.I wasn't trying to bring class envy into this forum. zekers, they made a lot of powerful than you SKs. let's talk about group sets. most of the groups, they designed to kill a heroic mob in 30 seconds.  zekers they got better taunt. better stats, better buffs ( like str and regen buff ). they do better dps. better AE attack.. yes, I do agree that sk can do dm, fd, they can evac. they do have a lot of debuffs, they do better utilities... but if I have an option to choose an sk or a zeker, I will get a zeker. faster kill, better aggro.for a raid... I do have some raiding experance, as far as I know... Well, I am sorry I have to say the truth. I think any class they replace a SK. why? let's take a look the strangth and weakness...1. dps, if we looking for a dps fighter, I would have to say zeker. they got have very strong dps, a lot of stronger than SK. specially for AE mob. even guardian can do better dps than a sk ( it's the buckler line AA ). no matter what SKs use 1 hander or 2 hander, you people just can't do that much dps. but one thing for sure.. you people do better dps than a pally. <span>:smileyvery-happy: </span>2. aggro, Guardian, zeker, pally they all got better aggro than an SK,  during a raid, all we need is fast aggro... after the tank goes down, or the adds pop. the raid leader used to say grab it as fast as you can. definally he's not talking to an sk. it's not like give 5 seconds to build aggro then I will do something like dps call. we don't have the time.  it might work in a pick up raid. like everyone doing 400-500 dps...that's my point. Taunt over time that's a totally waste ( personal opinion )3. debuffs, can you people list any unique debuff that sk has it only,and it has to be put it on the mob? any debuffs?? I do believe that every single class has 1 or 2 awesome debuff. even templar can do - 1000+ melee damage debuff. sk class should be the best debuffer in all fighters. are you guys doing better debuffs than a shaman?? better debuffs than a chanter?? better debuffs than a brigand?? or even the same?? I bet the answer is no. you guys just underpowered compare to the other best debuff classes.4. buffs... well, sks does has some buffs. any buffs are like sooo hardcore, so important... people can't live without it ( for instance, troubador -40% aggro ) I think the answer is no...they are all situational.5. special abilities, some people will say i can do lifetap. I have leech hitpoints proc... I can fd people. so you tell a gnome wizard, if you grab the aggro, i am gonna fake death you. i bet the gnome will give his middle finger to you and disappear reallllly fast.over all, I have to say, is there anything you sks are so proud of it. or any shining points? there was a thread talking about why a ranger doesn't really need it in a raid. the question is if you can bring an assassin why bother to get a ranger? same thing here... no strength, that's the weakness...<hr></blockquote>You have the intelligence of a turnip. I'm surprised you're capable of breathing and blinking at the same time, and you probably have a team of trained professionals reminding you to do so every five minutes. You have absolutely no concept of how raids are run, how classes (including your own) function, how debuffs stack, how aggro. works, how much DPS a shadowknight is capable of generating (Guardians do more AE DPS than SKs? Lolololololololololol. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], [Removed for Content].), no clear idea of the disparity between equivalent-equipped shadowknights and berserkers (It's very small, and entirely situational, another word you're incapable of using properly, it seems. <b>FAIL. </b>), and your comment on feign death usefulness makes me want to find out where you live, break into your home, and clobber you over the head with a brick.[Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content].And yes, sweetheart. This was a personal attack. Take some f'ing offense.</div>

[Norrsken]

<blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>roxer2b wrote:<div></div><p>1. SKs outdps zerkers. HAve a look around them here boards.</p><p>2. I and many other sks on the pvp servers have no problems whatsoever to keep aggro. In raids or groups. In groups, I actually end up as nr 1-3 on the dps parse as well. And 1-2 on heals. Beat that mr warrior. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Read up on death march)</p><p>3. No unique debuffs. But we do get a spiffy wis debuff, an AE mit debuff for 1600, and a disease debuff. Not much, and not special, though, no class really get something anyone else doesnt have.</p><p>4. Death march. Best there is.</p><p>5. The special ability of the sk is the survivability and their pretty much awesome adaptability.If you do not like those two, you will not like sks.</p><hr></blockquote>1. I don't think so. our zeker doing 1500 dps zone wild in lab 3 month ago, maybe 4 month ago. that's a brutal scout dps. that's what i mean. he did about 1700-2100 dps on those group of 3 mobs almost every single fight. I've seen some sks they used to do 800-1000 dps during the raid. they got the same level gear. it could be that they are doing different job that I don't know. zekers they are going stright, just doing dps that's all. sks they have to do debuffs. I am not sure after that, our sk left the guild.2. i do have a char in naggy server.. but i used to stay level 28 ganking those green people lol... well, sk is pretty cool in pvp... I guess that's why you people get punished so much. Well, playing in a pvp server that's something else. you have to get the player track up all the time. you ain't focusing on killing mobs, you focusing on the other hostile players. I didn't mean the sk class is not powerful enough in pvp, it's a cool class in pvp. but in a none-pvp server they ain't really that good and need some love.3. now i see the point. 1600 ae decrease mitigation that's just awesome <span>:smileywink:4. my question is how does it work in the raid? I am not sure. so increase intell. it looks cool, most of casters they need itell. but pretty much most of them maxed it already. increase dps? why not just get a coercer increase 74% dps? that's a permanent buff,they have buff permanent intells as well. for the immune mind ae. I would imagin how cool it is for matron. 5. well, the only thing I like sks that's harm touch and snare the rest of them i think they are pretty lamed. and it's too hard to play as a good sk.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I actually play a lot of PvE stuff as well on my sk. I use him as a farm toon. And its a snap. Way easier than my necro (Who got deleted.) And, compared to my zerker, my sk keeps aggro and dpses about the same. I take the load of the healers, if I even have one with me, on my sk though. Normally, its just 2 sks. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />60% reuse timer cut in a caster heavy group is not to be trifled with. And they are changing the stat caps pretty soon. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And, if all you like is the HT and the snare, well... then you dont like the sk as thats just a tiny bit of em. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And not even the juicy bit.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>"Thanks.. that makes sence... but i would like to know how do you build up the fast aggro in the raid? i don't really think that taunt over time can do that, cept you have hurricanus bracer, codex greave, and hurricanus bp..<BR>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I'm backup tank (not MA)...I keep my aggro level as close as I can to the MT level without snatching it. Our Hate over Times actually have a decent amount Upfront before the HoT kicks in...and Sacrilige is all Upfront hate. Even before the Deathmarch increase, I never found it that hard to grab aggro quickly when needed if not MTing. Keeping Pestillent Touch , FD and Rescue helped, but those weren't the key either. Now that Deathmarch has a large open AOE aggro burst (with a nice range on it as well)...SK snap aggro is huge (3 minute recast though...so keep it ready if on backup duty). The HoTs and DoTs all start overlapping, so just maintaining solid hate should be enough to sanp aggro if needed. SKs have enough AOE dammage and DoTs as well to keep a nice hate level on multiple targets anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Filmore Graves</DIV> <DIV>The Shard Collectors</DIV> <DIV>Unrest Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>10-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 PM</span>

[Rylight]

<div></div>its real late and I dont even feel like responding to half this nonsense that this post has created. first off let me say....and once agian..... I will have to agree with most of roxer's logical knowledge on this situation. second off, yes this bacisically was an attack on sk's everywhere. the OP clearly doesnt get the idea that sk's were designed to be good at everything, suck at nothing, but also excel in nothing (though not entirely true), or better yet you do get the idea that sk's have as you call it "no strengths" but you call that a weakness? sure the zerker has a strength of raiding, but to off-set that strength they loose soloabilty. being evil , the sk is selfish, which is why he is great at soloing, good at grouping, and fair at raiding. more over he is highly versatile, which is why he can do all three. Dont tell me a zerker can solo better then a sk, I dont want to hear that garbage. with FD, lifetaps and evac. you put 2 and 2 together. sk's have enough debuffs and special abilities, and some clearly noticable. some ppl laugh at the idea that sk's can instantly FD somebody in the group, but let me tell you I have saved 100's of lifes doing this. deathmarch is by far the best emergency way to keep aggro if used correctly (though yes rescue may be a runner up or slightly stronger) still it can not only insta snap aggro from the targeted mobs, but also any other encounter that is attacking you. and I dont want to get started on our AOE mit debuffs or str debuffs. zerkers better dps then Sk's? will sure , sometimes, really just depends on the situation and the individuals. I mean after all they are suppose to go berzerk? whats the big deal? however on a long fight with lots of mobs in the encounter an sk's dots can really start to take effect. honestly im not a zerker and could care less what a zerker can do. go zerkers! praise the zerkers! whatever, to each his own. and as for the guardians, more power to you. sk's hard to play? NO, just expensive to play right. sk's have there own purposes , own flavor, and own way of tanking, soloing and raiding. if you dont like it, dont play one, simple as that, no sense in jumping on the forums to say, "hey sk's have no purpose" not only does anybodynot  want to hear that, but nobody really cares and nobody believes it im an sk, always have been, I solo alot, I group every single day, and I raid every now and then. sure I dont raid like a zerker, I may tell the raid to tone down the nukes when the fight first starts, yes I have my own way of doing things. I'm not zerker, im not trying to be. but dont you dare call the sk's useless or unneeded. I can do plenty of things a zerker cant. I have more special ablities then almost any class in the game. and my sta AA is simply amazing (im freaking invincible for like 10 secs) im tired and im not even going to go on any further, theres no sense. sk's are fine, its usually the players that are bad. but yes, we dont have the best aggro management in the game, so what? if we did, then zerkers wouldnt, and they would be complaining. so on, and so on, etc etc.  if you like the zerkers so much, go to the zerker forums and praise the zerkers. senseless bashing is just a waste of time. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Rylight on <span class=date_text>10-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 AM</span>

[plantb]

<P>Guys come on lets not have a cat fight.  Save all your insults and personal attackes for the play ground where they belong.</P> <P>Yes Zerkers can out dps us, but that is because the buckler line which imo is a bit too overpowered.  Rumour has it that buckler line has been touched in EoF.</P> <P>As for agro, well Death March has provided a temp fix.  I have been told and agree with DM as being one of if not the best taunt in game.  Xan dude, I'm pretty sure DM generates more then 1-2k threat the extensive use of FD can verify that.</P> <P>So lets not bicker about how SKs are sub par vs warriors so close to a major game update.  Lets instead look forward to the reports from those SKs that are in Beta when the NDA has been lifted.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:Xan dude, I'm pretty sure DM generates more then 1-2k threat the extensive use of FD can verify that.<hr></blockquote>It used to generate a lot more, but its slowly been scaled back. i can throw death march in the first 10s of a fight and not get agro signle target. only getting one or two briefly if its a group encounter... which is logical.Only the initial cast seems to have been altered, as if you manage to get it to proc several times (carrion worms in DT for example), they often migrate to me.I use DM almost every 3 minutes at the moment with little regard for duration of combat. i rarely get agro due to it, and when i do, i just change stance and carry on, if MT gets it back i switch stance again. only time it gets me into trouble is on inc of overlord of captivity if i use it to collect adds i get everything.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

I still peel aggro constantly with it, even when I'm holding back for periods of time...auto attacking, debuffing etc..It is still very strong.

[Ep]

Your tanks aren't generating enough hate, all the time then. I constantly mt and i constantly have 2 maybe even 3 SK's in a raid, who seem to throw DM everytime it's up. Single target do they pull aggro? 1% of the time, if so. Group targets? 1-5% of the time, if so, for ex. we'll be in labs and clearing the zone with 3sk's in raid constant dm, 2 of them will grab aggro to group mobs once that raid, and thats it. w/ labs having 40+ group mobs it seems about right.<div></div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>If it is thown early, it's pretty much a guarantee it will rip aggro still I find, regardless of the MT...it's just that strong. It is like opening with, or throwing a rescue in the first few taunts of a fight.</DIV><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>10-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

[Kryptonix]

<DIV>Having MTed a few times for a raid. I have come to the conclusion that holding agro in a raid is quite easy. Granted if you have a dirge and coercer. So any arguement saying or questions asking about SK agro control in a raid is garbage. I remember one time I pulled agro off the MT while fighting the Corsilander in Labs. The MT NEVER got the agro back from me. And I had no hate buffers in my group. SKs DO NOT have agro issues. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grouping SKs make the best tanks IMO because they bring so much more to the table. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo. None of the fighter classes can touch us. NONE. I have seen SKs do some pretty hardcore stuff solo. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP is an idiot. Has no idea what the SK class is about but sees fit to come to OUR boards and troll. Somone needs to HT his face. Twice. </DIV>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:<div>Well, I think you misunderstand what i said <span>:smileywink:</span>. I am talking about solo 4 level 62 ^^^ heroic mob at the same time.. I can solo level 72 heroic ^^^ mob that's not a problem. I tried solo 2 level 70 heroic mob at the same time.. but i failed. and I am talking about you run into the mobs grab 4 at the same time, go back, kill all of them all. that's what i mean.. not to solo an single level 62 heroic ^^^ up mob <span>:smileytongue: well, for Azdalin, I can solo this thing with 0 power start. Ranktukara, I tried. he does knockback.. that's all :   ) it takes me a while. skywatcher, I killed him like over 20 times already, they made it harder. but still he's soloable. he hits me like 1k per hit stuns ( too bad I have instantly cure. and it doesn't cost any power. ) I've never tried that abomination before. sorry,  for the hierodule I can't... he's pretty hard. I would like to see how you solo this guy. he shoot arrwos, if you try to root him or snare him. he hits me like 1k, but he's got a lot hps like 100k. just make sure... you talking about that 69 guy standing in front of den of devour right??</span>well, actually, I am not jealous :   ) that's the bigest joke i've ever heard. so why do you reroll a wizard? btw...I am invited to bring the case here<span>:smileywink:</span></div><hr></blockquote>I knew what you meant, I just don't think soloing 4 green ^^^s is much of a challenge, especially those lizards on Breeding Grounds or whatever you said they were.  Grats to you on being able to solo those with what?  your Cleric?  And yes, I mean the named outside of Den...I never said I didn't pull out any heal/power/mit potion tricks to last longer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I've also seen screens of an SK that used to post on these boards soloing one of those x2 drakes in Temple of Scale...pretty impressive if you ask me.As for rerolling, I moved to PvP and rolled a class we were lacking.  We already had an SK and I couldn't deal with the transition from playing a well equipped and almost fully mastered SK to starting a new SK...as Wendingo guessed, I wanted something a bit different, and more valuable in pvp and raiding than a second SK <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I miss playing an SK, and I'd love to transfer my 70 SK over to PvP, but that isn't an option <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Wizards definately rock though, but I'm still not used to not being a plate tank as I'm always running right into AEs and such to wack mobs with my walking stick <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Ekelefer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rylight wrote:<BR> its real late and I dont even feel like responding to half this nonsense that this post has created.<BR><BR>first off let me say....and once agian..... I will have to agree with most of roxer's logical knowledge on this situation.<BR><BR>second off, yes this bacisically was an attack on sk's everywhere. the OP clearly doesnt get the idea that sk's were designed to be good at everything, suck at nothing, but also excel in nothing (though not entirely true), or better yet you do get the idea that sk's have as you call it "no strengths" but you call that a weakness? sure the zerker has a strength of raiding, but to off-set that strength they loose soloabilty.<BR><BR>being evil , the sk is selfish, which is why he is great at soloing, good at grouping, and fair at raiding. more over he is highly versatile, which is why he can do all three. Dont tell me a zerker can solo better then a sk, I dont want to hear that garbage. with FD, lifetaps and evac. you put 2 and 2 together.<BR><BR>sk's have enough debuffs and special abilities, and some clearly noticable. some ppl laugh at the idea that sk's can instantly FD somebody in the group, but let me tell you I have saved 100's of lifes doing this. deathmarch is by far the best emergency way to keep aggro if used correctly (though yes rescue may be a runner up or slightly stronger) still it can not only insta snap aggro from the targeted mobs, but also any other encounter that is attacking you. and I dont want to get started on our AOE mit debuffs or str debuffs.<BR><BR>zerkers better dps then Sk's? will sure , sometimes, really just depends on the situation and the individuals. I mean after all they are suppose to go berzerk? whats the big deal? however on a long fight with lots of mobs in the encounter an sk's dots can really start to take effect. honestly im not a zerker and could care less what a zerker can do. go zerkers! praise the zerkers! whatever, to each his own. and as for the guardians, more power to you.<BR><BR>sk's hard to play? NO, just expensive to play right.<BR><BR>sk's have there own purposes , own flavor, and own way of tanking, soloing and raiding. if you dont like it, dont play one, simple as that, no sense in jumping on the forums to say, "hey sk's have no purpose" not only does anybodynot  want to hear that, but nobody really cares and nobody believes it<BR><BR>im an sk, always have been, I solo alot, I group every single day, and I raid every now and then. sure I dont raid like a zerker, I may tell the raid to tone down the nukes when the fight first starts, yes I have my own way of doing things. I'm not zerker, im not trying to be.<BR><BR>but dont you dare call the sk's useless or unneeded. I can do plenty of things a zerker cant. I have more special ablities then almost any class in the game. and my sta AA is simply amazing (im freaking invincible for like 10 secs)<BR><BR>im tired and im not even going to go on any further, theres no sense. sk's are fine, its usually the players that are bad. but yes, we dont have the best aggro management in the game, so what? if we did, then zerkers wouldnt, and they would be complaining. so on, and so on, etc etc.  <BR><BR>if you like the zerkers so much, go to the zerker forums and praise the zerkers. senseless bashing is just a waste of time.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Rylight on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You sir I must /salute</P> <P>Anyways...don't mean to revive this post but....I must say something. I feel like I (we) have been called out.</P> <P>PvE is boring imho....which seems to be the basis of the OPs argument that SKS suck. All you presented was hard numbers to back up your claims which to me is silly. Why you ask? </P> <P>Because everyone knows that 1+1=2...if you approach the game like this (why I HATE raiding and don't understand why everyone judges the worth of a class based of a numbers end-game) than you are creating a black and white gaming experience: Zerker+Healer+dps=Leet...yeah so what. </P> <P>PvP is where it's at and that's where SKs rule. The OP glimpsed the light when she stated SKs do make a good PvP class, now she only need walk into that light and let the darkness all SKs brings upon their enemies....illuminate the frailties of her beloved zerker/guardian......firsthand. </P> <P>Zerker/Guardian top dogs in the PvE world? Yeah I'll give you that, easy-mode perma buffs that proc not hate but straight up taunt lockdowns(hold the line, whatever the zerker version is) plus high burst dps makes the warrior look great in the fast paced pve world. </P> <P>Slow it down a bit in some good groupVSgroup pvp, where the game gets colorful and it's not about hard numbers but more on smart decision making and player skill, a well played SK will walk all over a guardian/zerker. Coming from myself (lvl60 dreadnaught SK on Venekor, not tuting my own horn just stating my credability) I say this with the confidence derived from  warriors having their uber phys mit completely bypassed by my spells, and then pegged down a notch below my own when I debuff them. </P> <P>Sorry I've said too much as is...just my 2cp</P> <P> </P>