Raid assets

[Rr]

<DIV>I'm trying to figure out what Shadowknight's provide to a raid as an asset over a Paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having played a Paladin to lvl 58 or so, and betrayed becuse there were just WAY too many in my guild, I understand both classes better than some. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest thing that crusaders bring to a raid is the armament line, SK's and Paly's both have this. Paly's have direct heals, a ward, a heal, a group heal, and two hot heals (one for self, one for anyone). SK's have a reactive heal/dmg shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both classes have similar DPS, paly's probably have the short end slightly on this. Both have group buffs, palys have the edge on this one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, from a pure raiding standpoint, if we have a paladin, why bother with an SK, unless there is an empty spot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand some of you out there are l33t d00ds who can push 1k-1.3k dps. You're not the norm. So, for the normal SK, what would entice a raid to take us unless there was no other crusader available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks.</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Ok, I've seen this argument many times before and most recently on the combat discussion boards. According to most raiders we and rangers are useless spots on raids. I still say they're wrong because our primary function is still that of a tank. Now, if you're not tanking then you have a ton of other stuff that you can do and part of that is DPSing. I'm not exactly as l33t as you may promounce because I can hit 1.3K DPS on a raid. I just know that is pretty much about all I can do without pulling agro for a tank if I'm not tanking. I keep myself moderated because if I'm not tanking, then I don't want agro. I sit back and ward, intercede the tank, debuff and keep my trigger finger over my FD button for when one of our DPSers gets frisky with the mob a bit too much <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>You want a reason to take a SK over a pally? I don't have one, just as I don't have a viable reasoning to take a pally over a SK outside of amends and if you already have deagroing classes in the raid. . . /shrug no real reason. We have the debuffs and much higher DPS than a pally, the only FD that we can use on someone besides ourselves and the only ward in the game that gives agro to the receiver than the caster. Listen to the rest of the raiders and they'll disagree with everything that I've stated. Learn your class and see how many roles that you can really play with just 1 class in a raid bud. =D Pfft, who needs a pally <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Rr]

Thanks that's the info I was looking for. Didn't realize that our ward gave agro to the reciever, that's pretty nice, and the FD is a good point. The two crusaders seem pretty balanced then in what they bring into the raid, the paladin seems slightly more active, whereas the SK seems a little more reactionary. Thanks for the info, I know I'm loving the SK. <div></div>

[Nicholai24]

We also have some medium-powered debuffs which no other tank class brings to the table:Agony ( Melee damage + 100+ wisdom debuff.. 100 lower wisdom = around 400ish lower magical resists across the board )Sacrilege ( Taunt + 1100 disease mit. debuff.. stacks with everything else, and it's cheap. )Siphon Strength ( Meh.. every little bit helps. It's basically a free -64 str, +64 str. to you. )Despoil ( -1600ish physical mitigation to the entire encounter. Stacks with Dispatch, lasts a lot longer. )We're more focused on offensive tactics. Paladins are more defensive.<div></div>

[Rr]

Despoil sounds like a HUGE asset. I don't look ahead to my spells, just as I don't want to get too antsy to level. But that's insane, and it lasts for two minutes. Stacking with dispatch is just nuts.

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR> Despoil sounds like a HUGE asset. I don't look ahead to my spells, just as I don't want to get too antsy to level. But that's insane, and it lasts for two minutes. Stacking with dispatch is just nuts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont know where you got ur info on Despoil, but it does not last for 2 mins.  Its something like 1min 20secs.  Brigands have Dispatch and another AC debuff Called Devitalize which debuffs 2240 miti for 1min 12 secs and has a 1 min recast timer.</P> <P>Dirges also have a miti debuff.</P> <P>As for our wards transfering hate to target, I wont believe it until a Red name says so.  The whole 1 dmge = 1 threat theory, is just theory until proven.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Rr]

<DIV>Was reading on ogaming, at work, so my quick glance may have not netted me the right info, maybe 2 min recast. Not 100% sure, either way, that's a ton of mit debuff that's incredible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The dirge mit debuff is for 1 min, and drains their power as long as it's up, can't remember waht the # is on it, but i think it's around 1k at M1, again, at work so not 100% sure.</DIV>

[Nicholai24]

<blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div>Dont know where you got ur info on Despoil, but it does not last for 2 mins.  Its something like 1min 20secs.  Brigands have Dispatch and another AC debuff Called Devitalize which debuffs 2240 miti for 1min 12 secs and has a 1 min recast timer.</div> <p>Dirges also have a miti debuff.</p> <p>As for our wards transfering hate to target, I wont believe it until a Red name says so.  The whole 1 dmge = 1 threat theory, is just theory until proven.</p> <p>Plant</p><hr></blockquote>A red name has stated that one damage = one threat, duder. That's where the 'theory' originated.Despoil lasts longer than Dispatch, and stacks. Whether or not dirges have a mit. debuff is irrelevant, and if you're trying to say that Brigands have better armor debuffs, I feel like reaching through the monitor and slapping you. Quit posting negative nonsense 24/7, or else betray. No one likes you.

[Nicholai24]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rrin wrote:<div></div>Despoil sounds like a HUGE asset. I don't look ahead to my spells, just as I don't want to get too antsy to level. But that's insane, and it lasts for two minutes. Stacking with dispatch is just nuts.<hr></blockquote>You have access to the precursor, 'Despoiling Mist', already. I believe it's a 46 spell, or something. I'm too lazy to check. It debuffs for around 1200 at Master level, and shadowknights are the only class to my knowledge that has a long duration, encounter-wide physical mitigation debuff.</div>

[Norrsken]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Nicholai24 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Rrin wrote:<div></div>Despoil sounds like a HUGE asset. I don't look ahead to my spells, just as I don't want to get too antsy to level. But that's insane, and it lasts for two minutes. Stacking with dispatch is just nuts.<hr></blockquote>You have access to the precursor, 'Despoiling Mist', already. I believe it's a 46 spell, or something. I'm too lazy to check. It debuffs for around 1200 at Master level, and shadowknights are the only class to my knowledge that has a long duration, encounter-wide physical mitigation debuff.</div><hr></blockquote>I think its somewhere <strike>mid</strike> 50 actually.(Eerhm, its actually at 50, not even mid 50. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</div><p>Message Edited by roxer2b on <span class=date_text>08-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[DUNN]

Dispoiling mist is a 50 spell lasts fro 1 min 20 sec with a 2 min recast.  Dirges can debubf ac, slow, and reduce avoidance at the cost of power through out the duration of the fight except durimg the 1 second refresh time when the spells drop.  Going of the top of my head since i play both.  Guess which one gets to raid?<p>Message Edited by DUNN on <span class=date_text>08-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 PM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Dispoiling Mist was a lvl 50 ability and was 1200 at M1. Despoil is a lvl 70 ability and is 1600 at M1. 1 min 20 second duriation, 2 min recast and targets the encounter. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR> Despoil sounds like a HUGE asset. I don't look ahead to my spells, just as I don't want to get too antsy to level. But that's insane, and it lasts for two minutes. Stacking with dispatch is just nuts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont know where you got ur info on Despoil, but it does not last for 2 mins.  Its something like 1min 20secs.  Brigands have Dispatch and another AC debuff Called Devitalize which debuffs 2240 miti for 1min 12 secs and has a 1 min recast timer.</P> <P>Dirges also have a miti debuff.</P> <P>As for our wards transfering hate to target, I wont believe it until a Red name says so.  The whole 1 dmge = 1 threat theory, is just theory until proven.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your negativity Plant is astonishing. Betray or roll another toon, please. I've asked you to do this numerous times, but I really mean it. A red name did confirm that 1 point of damage=1 point of hate. What other confirmation would you like? Do you want the actual code they use to program this? The brigiand has the better MIT debuff because that's the speciality of their class: debuffing. What do you really want out of this class man?<BR></P>

[DUNN]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>Dispoiling Mist was a lvl 50 ability and was 1200 at M1. Despoil is a lvl 70 ability and is 1600 at M1. 1 min 20 second duriation, 2 min recast and targets the encounter. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR> Despoil sounds like a HUGE asset. I don't look ahead to my spells, just as I don't want to get too antsy to level. But that's insane, and it lasts for two minutes. Stacking with dispatch is just nuts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont know where you got ur info on Despoil, but it does not last for 2 mins.  Its something like 1min 20secs.  Brigands have Dispatch and another AC debuff Called Devitalize which debuffs 2240 miti for 1min 12 secs and has a 1 min recast timer.</P> <P>Dirges also have a miti debuff.</P> <P>As for our wards transfering hate to target, I wont believe it until a Red name says so.  The whole 1 dmge = 1 threat theory, is just theory until proven.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your negativity Plant is astonishing. Betray or roll another toon, please. I've asked you to do this numerous times, but I really mean it. A red name did confirm that 1 point of damage=1 point of hate. What other confirmation would you like? Do you want the actual code they use to program this? The brigiand has the better MIT debuff because that's the speciality of their class: debuffing. What do you really want out of this class man?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I still hold to the fact that not everyones experience is the same even if they play the sam class. Maybe you have been lucky enough to be in a guild that supports and accepts your SK.  However many of us on the other hand have slowly been cast aside little by little and eventualy forced to use other characters if we wish to raid.  I still cling onto my sk and ocasionally tank raids when all the tanks decide to leave or not to show.  Then i get to log my Sk and show off what i can do with the little equipment i have gathered and given to me because it would have roughted or sold to the vendor as trash. </P> <P> Do  I like My Sk? Yes and i play him all the time when not raiding.  Do I try to get in guild raids with him? All the time.  Am iI the only dirge in my guild? No.. I may not be all negative but at times it is frustrating being at the bottom and being forced to play another character.  Bexause the one you love and want to play is not welcomed after you reached the current end game.  Do I agree with this occouring? Of course not but I do understand other Sk and their postings because I live it everyday.  Switching guilds doesn't usually help since I did try it and i still have the problem.  If you switch guilds continually you end up hurting yourself moreby getting  badrep  in the raiding community.  </P> <P>To ask other SK to reroll/betray becuase of this is just assenine. They might like the class but not the tratment they receive for being a SK.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>I am fully aware of the hardships that one may face playing this class. I went through it on my old server and even the server I'm on now to an extent. Would one not be the stronger individual to maintain a positive attitude concerning an issue? Any issue really, not just this one in particular. I've sat back with this particular individual and attempted to see his/her viewpoint on the issues with our class but there aren't really any constructive comments made, just flames about how bad we're broken.  Tell me if you find any logic in these statements. I'll try to pharaphrase a conversation that we had on the boards once reguarding the issue of SK's tanking t7 raid content:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant: SK's can not tank raids in t7</DIV> <DIV>Me: Have you tried to tank during t7?</DIV> <DIV>Plant: No</DIV> <DIV>Me: Then how can you make that comment? What make us incapable of tanking in t7?</DIV> <DIV>Plant: I just know. Because my guild leader told me. . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It goes on and on and on with this individual. I, for one, am personally tired of hearing the negativity comming form this guy/girl reguarding our class. If he/she is so unhappy with it, then do something to resolve it instead of whinning in every thread about SK's. There are ways to tank, DPS and play the many other roles our class is capable of. If it's a matter of a raid leader, then you discuss the issue with the raid leader in question and make the resolution that way. Start off by tanking the easier content and work your way up showing your raid leader that you're just as capable of performing your primary task as the next class is instead of bowing down to the constant comments about how worthless we are as tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry if I seem harsh reguarding the issue, but I've went through hell just because I play a certian class and still came out on top due to persistance. Am I my guilds MT becauase I play a certian class? No, I'm the MT because I've proven myself (which I have many friends to thank for standing behind me the whole way) to be a capable tank. What are we? We're the most versitle class out of the fighter archtypes and anyone that has stuck with it this long should be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] proud that they play it when others backed away after a nerf or 3. If Plant were to ask for some tips on how to tank, DPS, be a buff bot or even talk to his/her raid leader I would be MORE than happy to assist but that is not the case. So, either reroll, betray or do something about being fed up with your class instead of whinning about it. Action will make it happen, not wishing. The only progress you will make with wishing is self-dilusion.</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>As for our wards transfering hate to target, I wont believe it until a Red name says so.  The whole 1 dmge = 1 threat theory, is just theory until proven.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Guy's name is in red, is this what you're looking for?<BR></P>

[Rr]

I know how you feel Dunn, I play a dirge and an SK as well, I just hope to be able to get the SK into the raids when he dings 70 over my dirge, since there are two-three other dirges in my guild, and only one other active SK. <div></div>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Holy Crap boys, we still on this [Removed for Content]?.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all the facts have been settled i thought on Raid MTing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SKs r sub-optimal for Raid MT. Raid Tanking order = Guard>Zerk>Pally>SK</DIV> <DIV>BUT if the RL uses a SK that is his/her choice.</DIV> <DIV>SK Class CAN be MT in raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So as a Raid Leader with a selection of Tanks .. not many at all pick the SK for MT duty. is thet the SKs fault? no.</DIV> <DIV>many SKs i know has asked RLers and the answer is NO, SKs will not tank, we have a guard or zerker .. end of discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And any1 is only 4 things on a raid.. MT, Healer, DPS, Utility</DIV> <DIV>SKs are beat out of the other 3 slots by more capable classes. Is that the SKs fault? no</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunns guild just adhears to optimal Raid Formation.</DIV> <DIV>Sarsoons does not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its that simple</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually i blame SOE .. with 24!!!! classes some1 has to be on the bottom. </DIV>

[joeygopher]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>As for our wards transfering hate to target, I wont believe it until a Red name says so.  The whole 1 dmge = 1 threat theory, is just theory until proven.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Guy's name is in red, is this what you're looking for?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just wanted to add some further clarity on this - the reason why our "ward" gives hate to the recipient is because technically its not a ward.  Its a 100% proc spell that the recipient "casts" when they get hit.  As the recipient is casting the lifetap, so they get the hate.<BR>

[plantb]

<P>lol I'm not gonna take this BS from two sks that think we are fine, while most of the community including pallies think there is something wrong.  Those Sks that replied on the uba long thread on combat or spells forums (which ever one) are right about us being flamed if we say something negative about the class.  If it was up to those two that have flamed me we would not be touched by the devs,  I pray to God that will not be so.</P> <P>I dont need any advice on how to tank as well.  I did HoF at lvl 70 in full cobalt armour before HoF got nerfed, ok!  I put 110% concentration into doing that zone, within in a space of 30mins my tanking went from good to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good.  The next time I did HoF it was with better gear and only 1 wipe, and guess what... those grp members sent me tells asking me to tank for them in other instances.</P> <P>I have played an SK at all the different lvls of this game.. Starting with Grouping > Once a wk Raids > Casual Raiding > Hardcore Raiding (which I'm at now).</P> <P>At 65 I tanked Gates with a pickup raid and was told that I did a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job.  Tanked Lockjaw at 60, tanked Darathar at 62, tanked Venekore at 65, tanked PP:R with no ring at 70, so that alone shows that I have the skill to tank.  However there is a major difference between Green and yellow/orange con mobs.</P> <P>Lvled an Alchemist alt to 70 to make my SK a better Tank</P> <P>As for Tanking in T7.. well I was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close to tanking LoA.  First I was gonna tank it, but then swapped out for a pally, he got owned, so I was told that I would be tanking, but then our Guardians Necro flat mate said he would log the Guardian in and play as him, at this point I was soo urinated off that I logged.</P> <P>For T7 raids I am now MA, and a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good one as well.</P> <P>So I ask you two..</P> <P>1)Why is it, that my previous casual guild only uses a Zerker and Guardian as MT?</P> <P>2)Why is it there is a 9 page thread in the combat forums asking for a fix to crusaders?</P> <P>3)Why is it that there are other classes agreeing that the crusader class needs looking at?</P> <P>4)Why is it, that on my server I'm the only raiding guild SK left?</P> <P>5)Why is it, that on my server the best raiding guild will not replace their SK who left cus of RL issues?</P> <P>6)Why is it, that you two will not reply on that 9 page thread saying exactly what you said to me?</P> <P>At the end of the day, if we get fixed it will be no thanks to you guys.  </P> <P>Before I go, I would like to thanks those SKs that complained about how useless Death March was, as without you I doubt it would of been changed to something usefull. /Thanks</P> <P>PS.. Yes I do complain a lot, but thats because EQ2 = My Sk no SK no eq2</P> <P>Btw, I just spent 25plat on Death March M1 hoping that the fix will make me even more usefull on a Raid.</P> <P>Edit: As for 1 hate = 1 dmge.. Yes I saw that thread, but I dont believe it is as black and white as that, and I know I'm not alone on that.</P> <P>Also there is no swearing in my reply.. seems like I'm not allowed to say <A href="mailto:d@mn" target=_blank>d@mn</A></P> <P>Plant</P><p>Message Edited by plantboy on <span class=date_text>09-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Holy Crap boys, we still on this [Removed for Content]?.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all the facts have been settled i thought on Raid MTing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SKs r sub-optimal for Raid MT. Raid Tanking order = Guard>Zerk>Pally>SK</DIV> <DIV>BUT if the RL uses a SK that is his/her choice.</DIV> <DIV>SK Class CAN be MT in raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So as a Raid Leader with a selection of Tanks .. not many at all pick the SK for MT duty. is thet the SKs fault? no.</DIV> <DIV>many SKs i know has asked RLers and the answer is NO, SKs will not tank, we have a guard or zerker .. end of discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And any1 is only 4 things on a raid.. MT, Healer, DPS, Utility</DIV> <DIV>SKs are beat out of the other 3 slots by more capable classes. Is that the SKs fault? no</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunns guild just adhears to optimal Raid Formation.</DIV> <DIV>Sarsoons does not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its that simple</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually i blame SOE .. with 24!!!! classes some1 has to be on the bottom. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Forget what I said... Yummi says it a lot better</P> <P>Very good reply</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Grimm79]

<P>Oh dear oh dear,</P> <P>Plant take some meds man, no need for your tourettes to break out.</P> <P>It's not all that hard to see why we aren't the obvious choice to raid tank, heck scratch obvious having a crusader MT your raid doesnt make sence at all from the game mechanics point of view. Low healt, low evasion and low mitigation compared to guards & zerkers, then there is the agro thing, oh yeah but we do get some funky ward.... unfortunatly wards don't scale very well against hard hitting mobs which mitigation does, mitigation is up 24/7 our ward... probably around 3 seconds in a fight.</P> <P>This all don't mean that I'm unhappy with my SK, I love him and put way too much time into building him. I really don't think we should be focussing on being MT's, we can do it, but not as good as some of the other tanks. I see crusaders more in a  supportive role which I am quite happy to fullfill.</P> <P> </P>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote: <P>4)Why is it, that on my server I'm the only raiding guild SK left?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Since i personally don't like raiding, i have one question at you :</P> <P>Where have all the SKs i see posting here, all there fabled stuff from ? Since i know that no SKs are ever on raids, never ever, it must be from non-raid-mobs, so please tell me, where do SKs get all there stuff from ?</P> <P>Btw.: I also often wonder why raids not only are made of 5-6 healers, maybe a mezzer, and the rest alls Zerkers, because we all now they do more damage then any T1 class, have more hitpoints and more miti then everyone else, and are simply so ubor that maybe they don't even need healers. 24 zerkers, that should be a fantastic raidgroup .. that must be 48k DPS ore even more <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[plantb]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimm79 wrote:<BR> <P>Oh dear oh dear,</P> <P>Plant take some meds man, no need for your tourettes to break out.</P> <P>It's not all that hard to see why we aren't the obvious choice to raid tank, heck scratch obvious having a crusader MT your raid doesnt make sence at all from the game mechanics point of view. Low healt, low evasion and low mitigation compared to guards & zerkers, then there is the agro thing, oh yeah but we do get some funky ward.... unfortunatly wards don't scale very well against hard hitting mobs which mitigation does, mitigation is up 24/7 our ward... probably around 3 seconds in a fight.</P> <P>This all don't mean that I'm unhappy with my SK, I love him and put way too much time into building him. I really don't think we should be focussing on being MT's, we can do it, but not as good as some of the other tanks. I see crusaders more in a  supportive role which I am quite happy to fullfill.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I have been insulted a lot on these Sks forums.  Why name call me or refer me to a mental illness that I may or may not suffer from.  Have I bad mouthed anybody on this forum?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because I dont like the way our class is goin at the moment, and have a strong passion for us to mean something in this game, does not give players the right to name call me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My fear is that with no fix to our class, EoF will come out, Harder raid zones, no lvl cap increase therefore lots of lvl 70s, lots more players wanting to raid, and a class that will be tossed aside as it has no definative role in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also tbh, I dont like the new breed of SKs we have on these forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considure this to be my last post on these boards, I'll keep in touch with some of you on these boards via PM (EoF talk).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So on that note I say good bye and good luck to you all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div>To address the OP, a Shadowknights assets in a raid are:1. We can tank. MT, backup tank, whatever. We have three emergency spells to gain aggro (Rescue, FD and HT).2. We have the best debuffs of any fighter class. They were already mentioned here.3. We have the best group buffs for aiding the MT group. Paladins have similar buffs to us, but our edge comes in our proc, which is not a stun (not so useful in raids) but rather a lifetap.4. We have the only "ward" in the game that generates hate for the recipient. As of the next live update this ward will stack with pally wards.5. We are the only class that can single FD a target. This is great for saving the MT/puller from a bad pull, saving somone who grabs aggro (like yourself in DPS mode) or staying alive during a wipe so the raid doesn't have to start over.6. We are on the upper end of the spectrum for fighter DPS. On average I'd say we do less than a Zerker and around the same amount as the brawlers. We do considerably more than a Paladin.If you look at raw numbers, ours our slightly lower than a Guardian, all things being equal. Many raid guilds only look at these numbers. Skill and Gear can easily equalize this. But if SOE made us tank better, they would have to get rid of #2-6 on that list.No thanks.</div>

[Dogm]

<P>Give Plant some slack.  He may be abrasive, must most of what he speaks is true.</P> <P>For the last poster</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>If you look at raw numbers, ours our slightly lower than a Guardian, all things being equal. Many raid guilds only look at these numbers. Skill and Gear can easily equalize this. But if SOE made us tank better, they would have to get rid of #2-6 on that list.<BR></P> <HR> <P>I'm guessing that you mean that our HPs? are slightly lower then a guardian?   And that raid guilds only look at that?   The whole skillset / AA set of Warriors compared to crusaders is what makes them prefered by raid guilds over a Crusader.   Remember Crusaders naturally have a 4 or 5% (can't remember the exact number offhand)  HP penalty when compared to a Warrior (this is not counting any HP buffs).   So in Identical gear, with Identical stats, the warrior will have 5%ish more HPs then a Crusader, and the Crusader should have more power.   About the more power thing,  it doesnt really work, because we must raise 2 stats to get similar power where other fighters only need 1, and there is a hard cap on power also (something like 380wis and str at level 70 will cap you), I don't remember the exact numbers but you can do a search for it as I posted screenshots before.  And our utility isn't really as great as you seem to think it is.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Yes the devs have said that 1 damage = 1 threat,   BUT what you seem to forget, or ignore, or not understand, is that they also said that Threat decreases over time.   Now what does that mean for us?    Well 2 of our 3 taunts are "over time",  we have 7 attacks (counting pet, not counting promise) that are "over time".   So we will have less Threat then any other tank, doing similar damage, because ours all take place over time.   Just the fact that hate decreases is proof that Taunt over Time is a flawed concept, and needs to be removed, or the threat levels raised in order to be anywhere near equal to what other tanks have.       We are also the only tank who will not get full threat value out of their taunt, if the mob is not debuffed, or is disease immune.</P> <P> </P> <P>Side note on taunts.  I have always said that we can hold aggro just fine, and we can.  The problem that we have is getting aggro.   If you are in a raid and the MT dies (let's say an encounter with 5 mobs),  then several other people are going to die before the SK can pick up all the mobs.   Please understand that difference.</P> <P> </P> <P>Comparing Despoil to Dispatch doesnt work,  they are completely different spells.   DIspatch lowers magic resist as well.   What you want to compare it to is Devitalize, which at AD1 is the same debuff as Despoil at M1, same duration etc. , but with only a 1 minute recast.   Despoil is an encounter based debuff, where Devitalize is single target, but overall it is not a big of a deal, as dirges and templars also get miti debuffs, so spending the time to cast ours is not usually worth it.</P> <P> </P> <P>FD does not help us gain aggro.  All it does is take that person off the hate list while they are on the ground.  As soon as they stand up , all their threat returns.  And as for FDing during a wipe and saving the raid, well let's just say, try FDing during Chel'Drak.</P> <P> </P> <P>Why people keep calling our Reactive, a ward I don't know.   It hasn't been a ward since LU13. </P> <P> </P> <P>When you say we do similar DPS to brawlers, you must be talking about a monk or a bruiser that doesnt know what they are doing.  Bruisers can do crazy DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes we can tank raids,  yes I have tanked raids.  But why would a raid want to do twice the work just to have a crusader tank, when they can toss in a warrior and have it on easy street.</P> <P>The only reason, not counting friendship or player skill etc,  for a Hardcore-raid guild to have any crusader is the Three Princes encounter.   Other then that, there are other classes that can do anything we can do, and better.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Over the past year or so the SK community has really changed.   Look back to the first posts in this forum, and you will see  Me, Astaroth, Darkaren and several other oldschool raiding SKs, would post, listing ideas to help improve the SK class.    Now what we have is non raiding SKs, jumping on top of the raid SKs that complain that there is no class balance.   Most times, somebody posts a list of things that need improvement, the "new breed" of SK jumps all over them saying that we are fine and if you don't agree then you must suck.   Constructive posts have died, and this forum has turned into a "whats the best race for SK" forum.   The SK world channel is dead,  havent seen over 20 people in there in a long time.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes I raid Hardcore, Yes I raid on my SK.  Why?  Because i am a great player, and make myself an asset to my guild.  If you are not already in an established guild as an SK, there is a very slim chance that you will ever be (Talking about talk guilds here, not casual friendly raid guilds, but guilds like SD, NPU etc.).  We just don't offer anything that can't be gotten elsewhere, and better at that.   </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Another note.   The Deathmarch change coming up will finally give us something to give back to the raid.   When placed in a caster group we will really be an asset, and hopefully this is just 1 step to help give SKs a true raid role.</P> <P>Message Edited by Dogmae on <SPAN class=date_text>09-03-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:53 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>09-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:53 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dogmae wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Give Plant some slack.  He may be abrasive, must most of what he speaks is true.</p> <p>For the last poster</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>If you look at raw numbers, ours our slightly lower than a Guardian, all things being equal. Many raid guilds only look at these numbers. Skill and Gear can easily equalize this. But if SOE made us tank better, they would have to get rid of #2-6 on that list.</p> <hr> <p>I'm guessing that you mean that our HPs? are slightly lower then a guardian?   And that raid guilds only look at that?   The whole skillset / AA set of Warriors compared to crusaders is what makes them prefered by raid guilds over a Crusader.   Remember Crusaders naturally have a 4 or 5% (can't remember the exact number offhand)  HP penalty when compared to a Warrior (this is not counting any HP buffs).   So in Identical gear, with Identical stats, the warrior will have 5%ish more HPs then a Crusader, and the Crusader should have more power.   About the more power thing,  it doesnt really work, because we must raise 2 stats to get similar power where other fighters only need 1, and there is a hard cap on power also (something like 380wis and str at level 70 will cap you), I don't remember the exact numbers but you can do a search for it as I posted screenshots before.  And our utility isn't really as great as you seem to think it is.</p> <p>Yes the devs have said that 1 damage = 1 threat,   BUT what you seem to forget, or ignore, or not understand, is that they also said that Threat decreases over time.   Now what does that mean for us?    Well 2 of our 3 taunts are "over time",  we have 7 attacks (counting pet, not counting promise) that are "over time".   So we will have less Threat then any other tank, doing similar damage, because ours all take place over time.   Just the fact that hate decreases is proof that Taunt over Time is a flawed concept, and needs to be removed, or the threat levels raised in order to be anywhere near equal to what other tanks have.       We are also the only tank who will not get full threat value out of their taunt, if the mob is not debuffed, or is disease immune.</p> <p>Side note on taunts.  I have always said that we can hold aggro just fine, and we can.  The problem that we have is getting aggro.   If you are in a raid and the MT dies (let's say an encounter with 5 mobs),  then several other people are going to die before the SK can pick up all the mobs.   Please understand that difference.</p> <p>Comparing Despoil to Dispatch doesnt work,  they are completely different spells.   DIspatch lowers magic resist as well.   What you want to compare it to is Devitalize, which at AD1 is the same debuff as Despoil at M1, same duration etc. , but with only a 1 minute recast.   Despoil is an encounter based debuff, where Devitalize is single target, but overall it is not a big of a deal, as dirges and templars also get miti debuffs, so spending the time to cast ours is not usually worth it.</p> <p>FD does not help us gain aggro.  All it does is take that person off the hate list while they are on the ground.  As soon as they stand up , all their threat returns.  And as for FDing during a wipe and saving the raid, well let's just say, try FDing during Chel'Drak.</p> <p>Why people keep calling our Reactive, a ward I don't know.   It hasn't been a ward since LU13. </p> <p>When you say we do similar DPS to brawlers, you must be talking about a monk or a bruiser that doesnt know what they are doing.  Bruisers can do crazy DPS.</p> <p>Yes we can tank raids,  yes I have tanked raids.  But why would a raid want to do twice the work just to have a crusader tank, when they can toss in a warrior and have it on easy street.</p> <p>The only reason, not counting friendship or player skill etc,  for a Hardcore-raid guild to have any crusader is the Three Princes encounter.   Other then that, there are other classes that can do anything we can do, and better.</p> <p>Over the past year or so the SK community has really changed.   Look back to the first posts in this forum, and you will see  Me, Astaroth, Darkaren and several other oldschool raiding SKs, would post, listing ideas to help improve the SK class.    Now what we have is non raiding SKs, jumping on top of the raid SKs that complain that there is no class balance.   Most times, somebody posts a list of things that need improvement, the "new breed" of SK jumps all over them saying that we are fine and if you don't agree then you must suck.   Constructive posts have died, and this forum has turned into a "whats the best race for SK" forum.   The SK world channel is dead,  havent seen over 20 people in there in a long time.</p> <p>Yes I raid Hardcore, Yes I raid on my SK.  Why?  Because i am a great player, and make myself an asset to my guild.  If you are not already in an established guild as an SK, there is a very slim chance that you will ever be (Talking about talk guilds here, not casual friendly raid guilds, but guilds like SD, NPU etc.).  We just don't offer anything that can't be gotten elsewhere, and better at that.   </p> <p>Another note.   The Deathmarch change coming up will finally give us something to give back to the raid.   When placed in a caster group we will really be an asset, and hopefully this is just 1 step to help give SKs a true raid role.</p> <p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class="date_text">09-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:53 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class="date_text">09-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:53 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Too long. Didn't read.</div>

[Huevos]

First I want to touch on the issue of threat, for those of you who insist that 1 threat point is exactly equal to 1 point of damage. More accurately, for those of you who don't understand why some people believe that this may not 100% be the full story:There is a lot of complicated maths and programming that go into a game like EQII. A lot of people who play the game aren't very familiar with Mathematics, and it means that there a lot of logical concepts that people are missing. What you have to look at is how long a mob retains its hate for. Sony has stated on at least one occasion (this has been cited earlier in this very thread, so I won't pick up a link until challenged) that THREAT DECREASES OVER TIME. Have they ever said that ALL threat decreases the same over time? Never. Have they ever commented on the power of debuffs in hate generation? Never. Have they ever discussed that 5 attacks each doing 1 damage generates more/equal/less hate than 1 attack doing 5 damage? Never. What I'm trying to get across here is that they have given us 3 simple rules to describe hate generation, where in fact there would be countless factors determining who the mob is wanting to attack at this moment.I brought up the idea of time as another dimension - sure, SKs might be able to produce twice the hate of a wizard over the length of the fight, but what about during a 30 second interval? 60 second interval? Does ANYONE have ANY data related to how fast threat decays, which type decays the fastest, what sort of instantaneous change-of-hate is required to "snap" aggro off someone? The whole issue is far more complex than simply stating that 1 threat = 1 dmg, and if you don't understand why than I don't think you should be playing a fighter, let alone commenting on this thread. Dogmae and Plantboy have been the only ones to bring this up, but I know most of you are not ignorant of these facts.<div></div>

[Huevos]

As for the actual topic at hand here, raid assets:At current I'm in a top raiding guild, though due to various out-of-game commitments I've never been to DT and haven't done many of the contested mobs. So it's far to say I've only really done the basic raids - Labs, Hos, LoA, that sort of caliber. I returned to the game with a new character after a 12 month break, and this brought me back shortly after the release of KoS. By the time I was 70, the guild had cleared DT and anything else of value. I am *not* an old-school SK, I'm not a raid-MT SK, I've never done T6 raiding and by the time I came to T7 raiding the zones were all ready a piece of cake and done only to gear up.I specced AAs to get spell crits and haste for DPS, and the wisdom line's skill buff because I thought naively it would make me a benefit to the raid. What I'm realising is that to get a spot on a raid, it's no good to sit there and state how much dps you do, what sort of buffs you provide to your group or any of that. At present my attendance on a raid is due to there not being an abundance of redundant plate tanks. There are two labs raids run per week, one with mains and one with alts, so I tag along on the alt raid. As an all-ready established T7 raiding guild, there was just no room for a lowly SK with no masters, no fabled, nothing to offer. They had one SK, that's about all they needed. So, this alt raid was a way of gearing up so that I could get onto the other raids.My findings are that an average SK is of no use to a raid. Before you get your flaming green panties in a knot, read that again. An *average* SK, a run-of-the-mill. Yes, some can tank. Yes, some can pump 1k dps. It's the average joe who would play a raid the same way any old conjy up the back would that offers nothing to a raid. Grave Blessing is nice, but it's not make-or-break. Despoil is nice, but the different is negligible. And for those who think we debuff a lot, try playing a Guardian. We're not the "debuffing plate tank" by a long stretch. I cycle through all my low-damage CAs, once a briggy calls dispatch (and ive sacriliged) I cycle all the disease skills, chuck a pet up and rinse and repeat. On the average fight, I am doing 600dps, on the named I'm doing 800. This is about the same as the average monks, usually a bit higher than some specifically slack rogues, conjies and what have you. If I go all out, I can just sneak past the slacker dps guys. I don't think we're a wasted DPS slot, if we're played right. I've never been the lowest "dps class" on a raid. There are very few raids that require all the dps to go all-out every fight, and so it's easy to parse past them if you're keen for it. Before I had masters/fabled, I WAS a wasted raid spot. A non-raid SK making the move to raids WILL be a wasted slot until they get the gear up there to its limit. This been said, I'm not enitrely decked out, and my self-buff int/str are only about 350, so my int rarely reaches cap in raids. This will be worked on. Additionally, until last night I was specced to widom aa line, which is now STA for melee crits. I've also only ever used crappy legendary weapons, because I'm lacking one. Even without being fulled decked out with gear, without reaching stat caps, I can see how some SKs manage to parse top-10 dps every raid. With a weapon with a good damage rating, a good crit-range, and the str/sta/int dps AAs, an SK shouldn't be a wasted DPS slot, unless your guild runs 6 healers, 1 MT, 1 backup, and 16 T1 DPS classes. <div></div>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dogmae wrote: <p>I'm guessing that you mean that our HPs? are slightly lower then a guardian?   And that raid guilds only look at that?   The whole skillset / AA set of Warriors compared to crusaders is what makes them prefered by raid guilds over a Crusader.   Remember Crusaders naturally have a 4 or 5% (can't remember the exact number offhand)  HP penalty when compared to a Warrior (this is not counting any HP buffs).   So in Identical gear, with Identical stats, the warrior will have 5%ish more HPs then a Crusader, and the Crusader should have more power.   About the more power thing,  it doesnt really work, because we must raise 2 stats to get similar power where other fighters only need 1, and there is a hard cap on power also (something like 380wis and str at level 70 will cap you), I don't remember the exact numbers but you can do a search for it as I posted screenshots before.  And our utility isn't really as great as you seem to think it is.</p><p><span class="time_text">...</span></p><hr></blockquote> I was referring to all of our numbers. To be a good tank we need to consider all five abilities while CA-based tanks can safely neglect INT. It takes more effort in general to get us to our peak, and even then, Guardians can have us beat in HP, mitigation, hate and avoidance. Again, gear and experience can more than make up for it.FD doesn't give you hate, but it can help you gain aggro. It has other purposes, and is more useful in some situations than others. Doing Harla Dar, for example, I tend to use it several times. Saving someone's power pool is pretty useful.Would I rather have a Shadowknight instead of a Dirge, Brigand, Swashbuckler, Warlock, etc.?  No. Would I rather have one instead of a Zerker, Paladin, Monk or Bruiser?  Yup. Because we bring a lot more to the table than just DPS. So if you are min-maxing, assuming you will eventually have the best gear and godlike players, I imagine all you'd want is a Guardian for MT, Paladin for off-tank/backup-tank and to ward and rez and no other fighters. Maybe a monk for tsunami pulls and trap springing. The views that min-maxers are going to have of our class is going to be considerably different. Wait, strike that, I don't want a second SK in my raid taking mah lewt. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>FD doesn't give you hate, but it can help you gain aggro. It has other purposes, and is more useful in some situations than others. Doing Harla Dar, for example, I tend to use it several times. Saving someone's power pool is pretty useful.<BR><BR>Would I rather have a Shadowknight instead of a Dirge, Brigand, Swashbuckler, Warlock, etc.?  No. Would I rather have one instead of a Zerker, Paladin, Monk or Bruiser?  Yup. Because we bring a lot more to the table than just DPS. So if you are min-maxing, assuming you will eventually have the best gear and godlike players, I imagine all you'd want is a Guardian for MT, Paladin for off-tank/backup-tank and to ward and rez and no other fighters. Maybe a monk for tsunami pulls and trap springing. The views that min-maxers are going to have of our class is going to be considerably different. <BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess that I just don't agree that our "utility" is anything special.   The only time I use FD is to mess with our assassins, or random other people.   The whole design of raids in this game, almost forces min/maxing.  When you are hard-capped on the number of peopel you can bring, you will want to bring the best possible of each class.  Where established guilds can use their SK to tank raids, a newer guild will have it 10 times easier by tossing in a guardian.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the poster earlier that commented on threat, i fully agree.  There are many parts to threat that we dont know about.   Have you ever noticed that when a spell gets resisted, that you seem to generate more hate then if it actually landed? I have.   And I fully believe that  a 1000 damage hit gets more threat then 10 hits for 100 damage.   The whole threat decreasing over time makes our dots not so great for aggro, and even [Removed for Content] our taunts.     Once again, as I have always said.  I can hold aggro just fine,   I just can't pull it when I need to (remember you can't always count on rescue or HT).</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>