SK Tanking : defensive stance + 1hand + shield Dilemma

[MirageKnight]

<DIV>Many claim SK lacks tanking utility especially on holding aggro, while some find other way around, but here,  I won't touch much about it here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether you have all master 1 spells or wonderful player skill as SK, since SK does not have any spells that designed to help own hate increase while tanking* or try to steal aggro from other, other than basic taunts (single taunt, encounter taunt), giving mob more dmg seems to be the only method SK has in order to take/hold aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(* You can claim "66-Nefarious Caress" as SK's tank utility, but this spell does need INT to get full potential and still remains controversial as dodging opponent's attack return nothing. So I won't consider this spell as good tanking utility here.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To get more damage while tanking or some one is under atack, SK needs to make strong damages or keep high dps.  As I have listed on other post, 14 SK spells are based on INT, 5 spells based on STR, 2 based on both INT and STR. Thus it seems increasing INT would be best way to increase SK's dps thus hold aggro better. (as 1dmg = 1hate by developer) </DIV> <DIV>But wait... SK only recieve INT boost by own when using offensive stance. While SK is tanking, this won't be a good choice. But you want as much INT as possible even on defensive stance so you'd be better off aggro holder. What a dilemma huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, you can cover it with uber equipments.... but where you see good plate gear with massive INT with it?</DIV> <DIV>Even current SK relic armors (which should be designed for SK use, I hope), gives only MASSIVE 34 INT (22INT helm, 12INT bracer) as total!!</DIV> <DIV>I found it is very hard to raise both INT and stats needed for tanking kept with any plate armors with high mitigation with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As example, my current SK with defensive stance + shield + 1hand stats are :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mitigation 5101 (71.4% vs lv70 mob, 72.0% crush, 69.0% pierce, 71.0% slash)</DIV> <DIV>STR 302</DIV> <DIV>AGI 210</DIV> <DIV>STA 389</DIV> <DIV>INT 101</DIV> <DIV>WIS 303</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>food, drink gives little more INT or stats but heck... not even 30 more.</DIV> <DIV>not fully T7 fable but I doubt I would get 200 more INT while increasing more mitigation.</DIV> <DIV>You can laugh on my poor gear but point is most plate gear lacks INT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK needs to make damage to keep or get strong aggro, but SK needs INT, which only comes from offensive buff to get maximum result. Unlike paladin, SK need to make hate by own. Unlike guardian, SK doesn't have other CA to take aggro than basics. Unlike berserker, STR which is usually comes with most plate parts is NOT stats need to make more dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is cleary poor spell combat/spell arts design as well as itemization, especially for SK.</DIV> <DIV>If you have any suggestion or items that gives very good int and mitigation (which obviously I haven't seen it drop), please share with us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>T7 SK spell line (INT 510 vs INT 101) Study</SPAN>  :</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=23649" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=23649</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by MirageKnight on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 AM</span>

[Archill]

going off just items and not their difficulty in aquiring..Head - Scourge Knight's MaskChest - Cuirass of ShadowfireShoulders - Pauldrons of SufferingArms - Windforged bracersHands - Bloodsoaked GauntletsLegs - Blackcoat LeggingsFeet - Windforged BootsSource : <a href="http://eq2.xanadu-community.com/eq2_loot.php" target=_blank>Here</a><div></div>

[Xanoth]

two of those items come from a contested thats usually dead in less than an hour of appearing unless it spawns in the middle of the night. so im still missing both boots and wrists, managed to get the shoulders tonight.So while the plate is out there, its hard to get. it does let you cap your int in defencive stance, which is ice... but... mit is often at a loss (chest % shoulders in particular).jewelry is also where we're hit hard, if we want mit, we have to make the most of these slots... anything that gets you closer to 6k+ mit once buffed for the job.sorry about the quick post but its nearly 3am, an i just want to go to bed u.ubut i do agree, one of the biggest issues with our class is itemisation. a fury does go a long way in maing up lost ground, as does a mage with an int buff.i made a similar post, but much less well writen further down about plate int. im still wondering if there is an int shield...<p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 AM</span>

[Archill]

Yup... While I was browsing that site I noticed a severe lack of int on 90% of the plate.. our relic is a joke for that stat as well. We get a total of 34 int from all 7 of our relic pieces. Whooptee. >:<div></div>

[SinIsLaw]

Yepps! Sadly true ... I'm mostly tanking in Off stance with a 2h nowadays, sometimes shield and Ascendant - reason is that I can generate so much more hate! That is of course on instance runs and day2day game play!If I raid tank  (may sometimes happen) I make darn sure that I get  some "loving"  form  my fav  buff mates  Fury, Dirge, Coecer  <span>:smileyhappy:</span> Change in the relic gear would be awesome, kick or half the wis on the pants, boots, shoulders and add int instead would be great !!! But it will be hard to relpace the missing int form our off stance! As i said before, sks are a great class but require a lot more then other tanks to be on paar, and that is imho due to SoE trying to put too much different things into the our class

[JoarAddam]

<DIV>The next LU makes our offensive stance even nicer than it was before, but I have found that we actually have 3 stances.  See, offensive and defensive stance both have debuff components of one kind or another, but you can choose "no stance at all" which gives you a decent balance without any losses to mit or autoattack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't the world's greatest stance, but if we had something else to use the concentration on, it could be pretty nice.  Give me another version of twisted aura with DoT and Mana tap instead of DD and Heal to stick in there, make it cost 2 concentation, and I'd be willing to play with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can actually get away with offensive stance while tanking.  in fact, it's prety nice, getting mobs down quickly can be more important than being able to effectively tank a longer fight.</DIV>

[MirageKnight]

<P>If you check your overall damage, 80-90% of SK's dmg is disease base, which comes from CA/spells.</P> <P>Losing crush, slash, pierce skill by defensive stance which only affect SK's auto-attack has minimium impact on SK's dps, as for holding aggro more efficently.</P> <P>On the other hand, INT as you see on my study on INT 510 vs 101, INT gives very nice boost dmg for most of SKs CA/spells; thus helps keep aggro. (cuz SK doesn't have anyother method.)</P> <P>Anyway, seems you are missing the point.<BR>Current SK's defensive stance is poorly designed for current itemization (which doesn't give INT at all) / tool (spell) given to SK, or just all items are not designed for SKs tanking at all.</P>

[SinIsLaw]

<div></div>The whole tanking desing for SKs has a flaw if u ask me! Yes we have our taunts (similar to other tanks) - And what "should be special" for the SK is the Carrss line,  which I read: "as we are supposed to be hit so that we can return some hate"  - Clearly that means for me we should have one of the highest Mitigation and lowest possible avoidance, to have this spell work efficient! But that would bring to much unbalance across the fighters, So IMHO, they should change it to: "if an opponent attacks the SK" meaning any attack aimed at the sk, even if parried or resisted should return hate - This would help us, while we ar tanking! Still as OT in def stance, yes we clearly have the prob that int is missing to boost our dmg, and the 3 available taunts (single ToT, group taunt, shield bash) are def not enough to be the 2nd on the hate list if the MT would go down. The missing INT in the def stance is just part of an overall flaw in the aggro design ...<p>Message Edited by SinIsLaw on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Kryptonix]

I dont know about you, but I rarely tank in def stance. I have a freind who plays a healer (an inq), and I have faith in his abilities as  a healer so I do not fear what so ever in tanking in off stance. Every now and then I will pull in def stance, pop an HO tap strength, then immediately go straight to off stance and finish off the mob. I have my strength tap at master 1. No, I am not a raid MT. No, I am not an OT or MA. No, I am not in full relic or full fabled gear. I dont even have my INT capped in off stance. So why do I tank in off stance?? Because I want to hold agro and generate more hate by doing more damage. <blockquote><hr>SinIsLaw wrote:<div></div>The whole tanking desing for SKs has a flaw if u ask me! Yes we have our taunts (similar to other tanks) - And what "should be special" for the SK is the Carrss line,  which I read: "as we are supposed to be hit so that we can return some hate"  - Clearly that means for me we should have one of the highest Mitigation and lowest possible avoidance, to have this spell work efficient! But that would bring to much unbalance across the fighters, So IMHO, they should change it to: "if an opponent attacks the SK" meaning any attack aimed at the sk, even if parried or resisted should return hate - This would help us, while we ar tanking! Still as OT in def stance, yes we clearly have the prob that int is missing to boost our dmg, and the 3 available taunts (single ToT, group taunt, shield bash) are def not enough to be the 2nd on the hate list if the MT would go down. The missing INT in the def stance is just part of an overall flaw in the aggro design ...<p>Message Edited by SinIsLaw on <span class="date_text">08-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:06 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If they added INT to our def stance why have stances in the first place? If they added INT to our def stance why would we use off stance? Def stance = Survive longer by getting hit less and for less damage. Less DPS so less hate generated.Off stance = More DPS and more hate. Get hit for more, more likely to wipe.Solution??- Stick with off stance, and upgrade your life taps to master or adept 3 level. So when you cast your life taps you get your money's worth which makes up for the added loss of HP when hit by a mob. Equip a 1 hander with a damage ward, there are also a ranged weapon with a nice damage ward.- Stick with def stance, and get a 2 hander with a nice damage proc (I use the 2 hander with a life tap proc), and get other pieces of items that proc damage as well. Get a caster with an INT buff in your group. Holding agro is a bit hard for us, yes. But we can hold AND lock down agro. No we dont do it by conventional means. For those who love to tank in groups with def stance and complain about agro issues..... switch stances. We have a different tanking style then all the other tanks, we dont have uber taunts or uber dps or a hate buffer. So how do we make up for it? Style. Creativity.You dont have to tank in def stance all the time. In a raid if you cant get your STR and INT capped win def stance, then you are in the wrong raid group.<div></div>

[JoarAddam]

I'm not the only one missing the point.  Defensive stance Defends.  It's Wis, instead of INT because Wis adds to your resistances, which is another type of defense.  You can't just look at melee and call that good enough to tank with, because not all of it is melee damage.  An 80% mit 60% avoidance tank will still get hurt badly by an ice nova if he has 12 cold resist.

[MirageKnight]

Another point missed seems.<BR>This post is mainly about how SK can keep dps (thus taunt) with low INT.<BR><BR>How good SK's defensive stance as defensive stance is not the point of this post.<BR><BR>Thought thx, but would like to hear more about how to keep up with this fact other than "just DON'T use defensive stance".<BR>

[Xanoth]

Fury + Coercer in a group should allow you to cap your int in defenive stance, thus making the most of everything we have. can't really offer much more than that though really... but will try <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />im sure ascendant with the STR line haste cap procs quite often, possibly covering a little of the DPS loss with a hate proc. if you really wnat to just up your DPS with low int, you have to find a way to make the most of your melee damage through AA's.STR 4-8-8-8-1STA 4-4-4-2Assuming maxed haste would help ascendant poc. if not ditch some haste for HP. just a suggestion i guess, does assume you have DT access though.can't offer much more than that really.<p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:08 AM</span>

[ArmadaXeenelk]

please buy some int stat potions, even rare ones if you can afford them.  They'll boost your int a bit, and I find its helpful to spec your achievment points in a manner that increases DPS. /shrugI agree that it is a fine balancing act, it would be more appropriate to have had our stat buff str/int since paladin is str/wis or maybe i'm just crazy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[HajimeSai]

<blockquote><hr>MirageKnight wrote:<div></div>Another point missed seems.This post is mainly about how SK can keep dps (thus taunt) with low INT.How good SK's defensive stance as defensive stance is not the point of this post.Thought thx, but would like to hear more about how to keep up with this fact other than "just DON'T use defensive stance".<hr></blockquote>You know, at first I could some what see what you are talking about, but now I think you are missing the point. The main theme of your post was about how much INT we lose in Defensive Stance, and how there is little to no plate gear that helps to cover this gap. Yes we all know that SKs need to do higher DPS to hold agro as well as the next class. We all know that INT really helps in that regard. And the people that you think are "missing the point" know exactly what you are dreaming about. However they are more realistic and understand there is a lot more to tanking and holding agro than just boosting one stat and calling it a day. <div></div>

[MirageKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HajimeSaito wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MirageKnight wrote:<BR> Another point missed seems.<BR>This post is mainly about how SK can keep dps (thus taunt) with low INT.<BR><BR>How good SK's defensive stance as defensive stance is not the point of this post.<BR><BR>Thought thx, but would like to hear more about how to keep up with this fact other than "just DON'T use defensive stance".<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You know, at first I could some what see what you are talking about, but now I think you are missing the point. The main theme of your post was about how much INT we lose in Defensive Stance, and how there is little to no plate gear that helps to cover this gap. Yes we all know that SKs need to do higher DPS to hold agro as well as the next class. We all know that INT really helps in that regard. And the people that you think are "missing the point" know exactly what you are dreaming about. However they are more realistic and understand there is a lot more to tanking and holding agro than just boosting one stat and calling it a day.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying at all.</P> <P>Not to use devensive stance as tank class isn't realistic at all imo.<BR>Sure, SK doesn't have to be in defensive stance to tank. SK can stay with offensive stance or not to use any stance to tank. But in many situation, especially where mob's dmg is hard, your grp member (raid member) sure does excpet plate tank to use any devensive tool avairable to the class. And SK sure does want to use any tools that mitigate/avoid dmg for all means. </P> <P>To be realistic, giving away shield and defensive stance for just holding aggro in these situation is not a smart choice as tank. Then as grp/raid, it would be more preferable to use class (plate tank) that can do both without sacrficing these, which would be all other plate class except SK.</P> <P>The idea showed up now so far is</P> <P>1) avoid use defensive stance<BR>2) grp with proper buffer (which basically saying SK can't tank unless this class in grp, or rather can't tank as well as other class without)<BR>3) use 2hand with defensive stance to make more dmg by throwing away shield avoidance<BR>4) use INT potion (basically, itemization for SK suck, so SK have to use INT potion if tanking)<BR>5) respec AA for INT (narrowing SK's AA customization but one choice)<BR></P>

[Kryptonix]

<div><blockquote><hr>MirageKnight wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> HajimeSaito wrote: <blockquote> <hr> MirageKnight wrote: <div></div>Another point missed seems.This post is mainly about how SK can keep dps (thus taunt) with low INT.How good SK's defensive stance as defensive stance is not the point of this post.Thought thx, but would like to hear more about how to keep up with this fact other than "just DON'T use defensive stance". <hr> </blockquote>You know, at first I could some what see what you are talking about, but now I think you are missing the point. The main theme of your post was about how much INT we lose in Defensive Stance, and how there is little to no plate gear that helps to cover this gap. Yes we all know that SKs need to do higher DPS to hold agro as well as the next class. We all know that INT really helps in that regard. And the people that you think are "missing the point" know exactly what you are dreaming about. However they are more realistic and understand there is a lot more to tanking and holding agro than just boosting one stat and calling it a day. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying at all.</p> <p>Not to use devensive stance as tank class isn't realistic at all imo.Sure, SK doesn't have to be in defensive stance to tank. SK can stay with offensive stance or not to use any stance to tank. But in many situation, especially where mob's dmg is hard, your grp member (raid member) sure does excpet plate tank to use any devensive tool avairable to the class. And SK sure does want to use any tools that mitigate/avoid dmg for all means. </p> <p>To be realistic, giving away shield and defensive stance for just holding aggro in these situation is not a smart choice as tank. Then as grp/raid, it would be more preferable to use class (plate tank) that can do both without sacrficing these, which would be all other plate class except SK.</p> <p>The idea showed up now so far is</p> <p>1) avoid use defensive stance2) grp with proper buffer (which basically saying SK can't tank unless this class in grp, or rather can't tank as well as other class without)3) use 2hand with defensive stance to make more dmg by throwing away shield avoidance4) use INT potion (basically, itemization for SK suck, so SK have to use INT potion if tanking)5) respec AA for INT (narrowing SK's AA customization but one choice)</p><hr></blockquote>I could barely understand what you are trying to say. I dont seem to understand what this is all about? You say we need to tank in def stance because we can take a lot of damage if we dont..... BUT if you tank in offensive stance, your life taps hit more and heal more.... so why not tank in offensive stance and cast blessing before pull, that way you get added hate AND it heals you. THEN you say, in a raid situation we should have a good amount of mitigation so that if the mob does go buck wild and start slashing at other raid members we can pull it off without dying..... BUT if another person besides the MT, MA, or OT loses agro, we can just FD them and BAM they dont have agro anymore. We can even FD ourselves. What you want is to have high mitigation and wanna be able to DPS/hold agro. Look being able to have really nice mitigation in off stance or high DPS in def stance is something we all want. But what you are asking for is unbalanced. We are not conventional tanks, we do NOT tank like any other tank class. </div>

[Ellestil]

<P>My solution to this was increasing my dps while not giving up mitigation or hate gain. DPS is hate gain also. So, I used my AA choices in Str, Sta, and Int. I chose Str and max'd hate gain as well as gained some haste, in Sta I obtained a knockdown and melee crits, in Int I max'd spell crits. Overall, when added together, greatly increases both my dps and hate gaining potential even when in defensive stance. When in offensive stance It's great dps. But, when doing runs like niz or even Nek 3 (without a mezzer and not invising through the whole thing), I need my mitigation. So, I'm still able to generate enough hate with my 10% hate gain, haste, melee crits, knockdowns, and spell crits even when in defensive stance.</P> <P>Ellestil</P>

[Toastic]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MirageKnight wrote:<BR> <DIV>single taunt, encounter taunt<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I swear whenever I read these boards I keep thinking people are talking about a different game. I got that far in the OP and the first thing that popped into my head was "What about slams?"... then i realized most posters don't even carry shields around with them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'm not far over 50 yet, right now I use destructive slam at master 1 (level 41 CA). 100ish damage, knockdown, stun (Which makes it worth using alone), 400ish taunt plus 150 taunt every 3 seconds for I think 4 ticks, pretty sure it's more total hate than the single target taunt. Plus I'm probably one of the few in the game that use the splitpaw taunt unless I come across a master book for my regular one. 10% for a double taunt is nice when it works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly the only time I have trouble holding agro is in PUG's that don't give me any chance to get an agro lock. Its just takes a few seconds to go through the taunts, slam and a couple dots but as long as they can hold onto their load for 4 or 5 seconds it's not a problem. Yeah the upfront damage of my CA's isn't as high as other tanks but the constant DoT damage plus the double hate whammy of the damage/heal ward I rarely have any problems.</DIV></DIV>

[hukikatlok]

<P>Yea, alot of us are holding agro fine working our butts off to do it but I think the basic premise that if you look at the SK in comparrison to other tanking classes from the agles of stances, how stats effect SK's, and what stats are on our gear the SK needs work. Guardian/Berserker damage is based on Str so no issue there with their exceptional taunts. A Pally's spells do more damage based on intel but SOE fixed their agro issues with one spell; Amends. I've read we are supposed to keep agro by doing more damage. Well we can but we need intel to do it effectively. Tricky with plate gear in Def stance.</P> <P>I guess the easy fix would be to put more intel on plate gear.</P>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>More Intel would be great, but I wouldn't want to give up other stats for the extra dammage. I wouldn't want to give up any Wis/Power/Resists for more Intel. I can't say how hard other tanks are working to hold there aggro, but we MT and MA/second tank SKs every single raid...we are effective at building and holding aggro in defensive stance. Group makeup is the key factor anyway, regardless of tank class on most raids when the DPS starts unloading.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be happy with anything that would increase aggro without decreasing our ability to take the hits of course though. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

I'm puzzled by talk about 2 handers in this debate - 2 hander = no shield (1k+ mitigation gone) and no Shield Bash (our biggest taunt gone).My understanding (limited as I've only been a SK for 10 levels), is that the only question is which stance - offensive/neutral/defensive.As none of these change mitigation (just Wis = resists) and most mob damage is autoattack,doesn't it make sense to tank in offensive stance with a weapon/shield, and swap to defensive stance for named mobs where you still won'tlose aggro as you burn harm touch / rescue ?I just wish that tower shields weren't so ugly.<div></div>

[Norrsken]

<div><blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:I'm puzzled by talk about 2 handers in this debate - 2 hander = no shield (1k+ mitigation gone) and no Shield Bash (our biggest taunt gone).My understanding (limited as I've only been a SK for 10 levels), is that the only question is which stance - offensive/neutral/defensive.As none of these change mitigation (just Wis = resists) and most mob damage is autoattack,doesn't it make sense to tank in offensive stance with a weapon/shield, and swap to defensive stance for named mobs where you still won'tlose aggro as you burn harm touch / rescue ?I just wish that tower shields weren't so ugly.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I dunno about you but I have a "Increases mitigation against all physical damage by X" line on my defensive stances as a shadowknight.and, well, for HT you just swap stance real fast if you are in defensive stance.</div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div>Ah, missed that bit - 400 odd mitigation and 7% or so avoidance at adept3.I'm almost always in defensive stance, (dual boxing with an illusionist) so hadn't paid attention.An imbued ring of intelligence seems to proc pretty often (thats 23INT + another 23 when in procs), and I often use INT potions (Exceptional = 51INT, Master = 56INT,  Grandmaster = 66INT) and damage shields which also help.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <span class=date_text>09-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 PM</span>

[Galn]

<P>I agree with Toasticle, I read these boards and  all anyone mentions is the single taunt and AoE taunt, they seem to forget that the SK's also get the Slam line and Caress line (which is the SK's answer to Amends). </P> <P>Looking at the Caress line it does damage and taunts every time we are hit, which could add up to a considerable amount of hate. Nefarious Caress (Master I) gives 97 hate and 40 damage, EVERY time the SK is hit, it benefits the entire group, not one overzealous DPS like Amends does. Venomous Slam (Master I) does 179-299 damage, plus 769 hate, plus 307 hate every 3 seconds for 12 seconds, seems like a significant amount of hate. The Guardian's shield slam does 600 max damage, no hate generation, but they do get a skill thats similar to Amends, but it isnt clear if its a one-time shot or not, Moderate is the skill.</P> <P>After comparing which taunts each class gets some interesting things showed up, Guardian and Shadowknight and Paladin all have a single target taunt, an AoE taunt an attack that adds hate, and some special hate Amends/Moderate/Nefarious Caress. Bruisers do most aggro through dps (and have only 2 taunts), and Berserkers get one extra AoE taunt no one else gets. Shadowknights only real difference is they ramp up a little slower on some of the taunts, but with proper tactics that can be adjusted for. </P><p>Message Edited by Galn on <span class=date_text>09-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 PM</span>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Well to make up for my mistake on offensive/defensive stance, I'll post a couple of minor corrections<span>:smileywink:</span> The guardian's Moderate (the equivalent of our Devious Evasion -avoidance check) is not an aggro siphon, In additon to the avoidance check it is also a permanent hate reduction buff (33% at adeptIII) on that ally is all.  Their HoldTheLine line (hate when hit) is bigger than our caress line though.  50% chance to increase threat by 418 on each hit (Inflaming Defense level 57 adeptIII)I haven't compared Guardian hate tools side by side to SK, as I've never played one, but before I betrayed I compared paladin taunt lines - they have both Amends (41% at master) permanent hate siphon, AND Sigil (group temporary hate siphon),  in addition to shield bash, and single & encounter taunt.  Side by side these are:<ul><li>Insidious Whisper(45) - Single Target Taunt (over time). (pal equiv: Clarion Call (45) </li><li>Blasphemy(50) - Encounter Taunt and disease debuff  (paladin equivalent: Zealous Preaching(50)</li><li>Infernal Caress (52) - Damage Shield.  (paladin equivalent: Sigil of Heroism - group hate siphon (52))</li><li>Catastrophic Slam (55) - Shield bash Stun/Taunt (paladin equivalent: Righteous Dash(55))</li><li>Rescue(25) - shared with all fighters</li></ul>See Amends is missing !  So thats more or less where our DPS has to make up the difference.<div></div>

[Hamervelder]

I use an imbued xegonite kite shield.  Not as much mitigation as other shields, but it does have a nice INT boost.  As for taunts, I use Goading Gesture from Spliltpaw.  Don't laugh.  It works, and it works hard.  Hate increase is as good as group taunt at Master II, with a 10% chance to double.  I don't really have any problems holding agro, unless I get in a group where the DPS don't know how to throttle.  If that happens, Death March is my friend.  Instant agro getter and keeper.<div></div>

[Nicholai24]

Insidious Promise, Master 1, is 845 Hate - 1032 Hate, + DoT, + HoT.The thing about Goading Gesture's 10% chance to double is simple statistics. Whichever spell will net you more hate on average over the course of a given duration ( either several hours, or per fight ), is the better taunt. Even if Goading rarely ( 1 in 10 is rare. ) nets you a little more snap aggro., it's still highly resistable. Insidious Promise saves versus disease, which Sacrilege debuffs, and it's the only fighter taunt in the game with the power to 'critical' threat in the form of the DoT component. 1 dmg = 1 hate. 200 hate per tick, in addition to the normal Burst hate + Hate over Time, is nothing to sneeze at. And yes, Adept III Insidious Promise is also a better taunt, on average. Still, do what works.<div></div>

[Toastic]

<P>I don't think anyone would say the single target SK taunt at master I isn't better than the SP taunt, especially right when you get it.</P> <P>The advantage of the splitpaw one is it increases in effectiveness as you level, and for those levels you can't afford or find an Adept 3 or master I for your regular taunt it can actually be more effective. The resistance is not bad, 30% harder or something close. There have been levels where all I had was the adept 1 or the adept 3 was 13 levels old and the SP one worked out a bit better. I always have it up anyway as a last ditch rescue, if the RNG likes you the double taunt can save a caster/healer.</P> <P>And more on topic, not many SK's I've talked to know about their bloodlines spell. It's on a 5 minute timer, but it's an AOE that does a decent chunk of damage (400 or 500 or something, haven't looked at it in awhile) plus a big (100+ levels) debuff. Nice "New group of mobs are running for the casters" button.</P>

[Hamervelder]

<div><blockquote><hr>Toasticle wrote:<div></div> <p>I don't think anyone would say the single target SK taunt at master I isn't better than the SP taunt, especially right when you get it.</p> <p>The advantage of the splitpaw one is it increases in effectiveness as you level, and for those levels you can't afford or find an Adept 3 or master I for your regular taunt it can actually be more effective. The resistance is not bad, 30% harder or something close. There have been levels where all I had was the adept 1 or the adept 3 was 13 levels old and the SP one worked out a bit better. I always have it up anyway as a last ditch rescue, if the RNG likes you the double taunt can save a caster/healer.</p> <p>And more on topic, not many SK's I've talked to know about their bloodlines spell. It's on a 5 minute timer, but it's an AOE that does a decent chunk of damage (400 or 500 or something, haven't looked at it in awhile) plus a big (100+ levels) debuff. Nice "New group of mobs are running for the casters" button.</p><hr></blockquote>This is exactly why I use the Splitpaw taunt... I have yet to find my solo taunt for less than 10 plat on the broker, and, frankly, <i>no</i> spell is worth that much to me.  The Splitpaw taunt may not be the best there is, but it comes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close, it's free, and it scales with level.  I don't see it resisted all that much either.  No more than Blasphemy Master II.</div>

[Norrsken]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hamervelder wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toasticle wrote:<BR> <P>I don't think anyone would say the single target SK taunt at master I isn't better than the SP taunt, especially right when you get it.</P> <P>The advantage of the splitpaw one is it increases in effectiveness as you level, and for those levels you can't afford or find an Adept 3 or master I for your regular taunt it can actually be more effective. The resistance is not bad, 30% harder or something close. There have been levels where all I had was the adept 1 or the adept 3 was 13 levels old and the SP one worked out a bit better. I always have it up anyway as a last ditch rescue, if the RNG likes you the double taunt can save a caster/healer.</P> <P>And more on topic, not many SK's I've talked to know about their bloodlines spell. It's on a 5 minute timer, but it's an AOE that does a decent chunk of damage (400 or 500 or something, haven't looked at it in awhile) plus a big (100+ levels) debuff. Nice "New group of mobs are running for the casters" button.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is exactly why I use the Splitpaw taunt... I have yet to find my solo taunt for less than 10 plat on the broker, and, frankly, <I>no</I> spell is worth that much to me.  The Splitpaw taunt may not be the best there is, but it comes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] close, it's free, and it scales with level.  I don't see it resisted all that much either.  No more than Blasphemy Master II.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I find my taunts dirt cheap on the fence pretty often.

[Xanoth]

Promice appeared on broker on my server a week or so ago, was 50pp at first, eventually went down to 30, but after buying tap veins, drain vitae and a few others, i didn't have 30 left... which was a good job, as a guild member looted it in PP a few days ago.so to try and get those missing t6 masters that never drop... having half the guild solo PP daily seems to work<p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class=date_text>10-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 AM</span>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanoth wrote:<BR>Promice appeared on broker on my server a week or so ago, was 50pp at first, eventually went down to 30, <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah .. same on my server .. saw it for around 50p and the first time ever till now. However .. all my AoEs are on Master 1 incl. Tap Veines and Death March, and i think that little bit thread more for the single taunt is not worth that much money <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>