They told me to do it so i did.....

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Iv been a SK all my MMO life. EQ1  and EQ2, 7+ years. was top end in eq1, not so hardcore in eq2 but still in a raiding guild doing t7.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>iv always a thousand diff arguments on Sks, underpowered, Balanced, overpowered, ect ect Vs the other tanks in EQ2. So then i started seeing peeps saying Play another Tank and ull understand...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i did, i now have a Lv 70 Berserker to directly compare my SK too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and guys, im sorry, after all these years of SK life i must say that i am very disapointed in SOE's disparity in the Tank classes.  These 2 classes r not even really compariable as it stands right now, with Zerk way on top as far as Mit, Hps, Stats (EZer to max only 2 stats Vs 3/4), Defense, DPS, Aggro control and Group buffs. The SK can FD,Heal itself,Evac and do some minor debuffs tho where as the Zerk can not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Warrior AP lines r also very nice, offering things such as Double attack with Stamina line, Straight +Mit and +Aviod. +DPS w/ Crits, and a 12 sec Parry all incoming attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro control deffinatly goes to the Beserker also, the True AE taunt Insolent Gibe is a power house, it also procs AE hate for a duration after activated if attacked, SKs have nothing close to this taunt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the short term Tank buffs the zerker has are also very strong and functional in every encounter. Adt3 quality on the 3 Short terms =~1200Mit and +35 Def 30sec duration 3 min recast. but 30 secs is all the time u need to et encounter debuffed and under control, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ahh getting late so ill post about the Zerk DPS Vs SK dps later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last think id like to say tonight is i truely didnt see the diff in the SKs vs other tanks untill i lved the Zerker. and now i know what peeps mean when they say "Sks r lacking".... SOE needs to step up the SK, i fear we are a dieing breed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yummy izbad</DIV> <DIV>70/70/50 SK/armorer</DIV> <DIV>Ahdam Smashr</DIV> <DIV>70/0/20 Zerker</DIV>

[whatevername01]

<P>I never seen the hard fact zerker vs SK. But I have grouped with some zerkers that gives a hell of alot of dmg. Zerkers give out very strong dps, no doubt. More than an SK... They tank better, yea. But the SK isent bad at all. In normal XP groups SKs are fairly good. See the situations SK are better is vs multiple mobs as fare as i see it. When we goto Gazer island or something to harvest. I do preety good. I might not be the best, but I do well.</P> <P>But lets face it. In no game have SKs ever been a wanted raid class, or XP class in EQ1 for that matter. People seem to forget that SKs are a hybrid. they arent a pure tank, nor caster. You get some stuff from both, and have to make advanterges for yourself, and make the terms you are tanking on, or pvping on optimal. </P> <P>Sks have some strong points in pvp. a rootet zerker, is a rootet zerker. Not much to do but shoot bow (havent checked into if they got dispell root or something like that) The SK is a rootet semi caster. You still got 60-70% of your dmg output comming out. I never seen an better class than an SK save a healer from a scout, or a caster for that matter. Sks got some really good atributes for pvp. Thats why you see alot of em on the pvp servers. Hell i won fights where I was 20% life vs scouts, and they were 100% All cuz of the little things we can do. Sks got alot of tricks up they're sleeve, and it does count for something.</P> <P>That beeing said, I know Sks are the lacking tank in comparison to Bruisers/Zerks and Guardians. Me and a bruiser friend did some testing. On 3 or more mobs, I was a better tank, on 2 or less, he was. The avoidance i surpose. But Inquisitors for examble would most likely rather have plate tanks, and bruiser tanks. But everyone would rather have zerks or guards ofcource hehe. But then again, SKs arnt really build for MT, but they are a hell of an offtank =)</P> <P> </P> <P>- Drackster 62 SK</P>

[Ne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Iv been a SK all my MMO life. EQ1  and EQ2, 7+ years. was top end in eq1, not so hardcore in eq2 but still in a raiding guild doing t7.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>iv always a thousand diff arguments on Sks, underpowered, Balanced, overpowered, ect ect Vs the other tanks in EQ2. So then i started seeing peeps saying Play another Tank and ull understand...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i did, i now have a Lv 70 Berserker to directly compare my SK too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and guys, im sorry, after all these years of SK life i must say that i am very disapointed in SOE's disparity in the Tank classes.  These 2 classes r not even really compariable as it stands right now, with Zerk way on top as far as Mit, Hps, Stats (EZer to max only 2 stats Vs 3/4), Defense, DPS, Aggro control and Group buffs. The SK can FD,Heal itself,Evac and do some minor debuffs tho where as the Zerk can not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Warrior AP lines r also very nice, offering things such as Double attack with Stamina line, Straight +Mit and +Aviod. +DPS w/ Crits, and a 12 sec Parry all incoming attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro control deffinatly goes to the Beserker also, the True AE taunt Insolent Gibe is a power house, it also procs AE hate for a duration after activated if attacked, SKs have nothing close to this taunt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the short term Tank buffs the zerker has are also very strong and functional in every encounter. Adt3 quality on the 3 Short terms =~1200Mit and +35 Def 30sec duration 3 min recast. but 30 secs is all the time u need to et encounter debuffed and under control, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ahh getting late so ill post about the Zerk DPS Vs SK dps later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last think id like to say tonight is i truely didnt see the diff in the SKs vs other tanks untill i lved the Zerker. and now i know what peeps mean when they say "Sks r lacking".... SOE needs to step up the SK, i fear we are a dieing breed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yummy izbad</DIV> <DIV>70/70/50 SK/armorer</DIV> <DIV>Ahdam Smashr</DIV> <DIV>70/0/20 Zerker</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Totally agree! (I play a 70 SK, raiding in full fabled except gloves and very nearly all masters)</P> <P>Comparing SK to Zerker is not even half fun. They do beat us in terms of every single aspect except PvP but who gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e on a PvE server? I understand SKs are not optimized tanks, but we should excell at something! Anything! </P> <P>I can imagine that the reason SOE gets their number the wrong way is that they "look at global server parses" and stares themselves blind at these numbers. There's a simple explaination why SKs are likely to be on top of Zerkers globally. When we raid I am nearly always before our Zerker MT in dps, but for crying out loud, that is because he is def-specced and is tanking in a MT group while I play off-specced in a bloody dress and a two-hander in a dps-oriented group! I typically squeeze out 800-1000 dps while the MT zerker does defensive 700-900 dps. Now, when he is not tanking and go full out whoopass he typically hits 1000-2000 dps!!! When I tank my dps is down to ~500 dps, but that happens extremely rarely and will not show up often in the global parses.</P> <P>On top of this, zerkers beat us in hp, mit and aggro. </P> <P>Sure, we can work as off-tanks for single (and double mobs if the raid is disciplined), but we just cannot get the snap aggro to offtank more than 2 separate encounters while there is an active raid nearby. Our only true AE taunt are damage spells, mostly dots with long cast times, you have to stand still to cast and they can be interupted -> <STRONG><EM>no AE snap aggro</EM></STRONG>! </P> <P>Imo, increasing the instant damage component of our AE dots would sort us out. It would increase our DPS and give us more snap ae aggro at the same time. Make them short casting time and cast-on-the-fly and we have the aggro control we need to offtank atleast! </P>

[Nicholai24]

<P>Posts like this absolutely baffle me. Why is it that, as a player's level of equipment increases, their knowledge of class decreases?</P> <P> </P> <P>We can reach ( and exceed ) the AC cap, like any other Tank, with ease, provided we gear up. This is cake.</P> <P>We can generate more than enough aggro. to tank in both raid and group situations. DPS does not have to hold back.</P> <P>Our HP disparity is not significant. 1000 HP is nothing. If you scrape by with a win on an encounter because of that 1,000 HP, you either got lucky and didn't deserve to beat the encounter anyway, or else you're doing something wrong. This is like saying SKs are underpowered because tanks are constantly hovering in the red zone during raids, which isn't the case unless you run raids with 3 or 4 healers. </P> <P>We generate similar, and usually <EM>better </EM>damage, AE and otherwise, than a 'Zerker, in nearly all situations.</P> <P>Temp. mit. buff which Zerkers get is inconsequential. I'd sooner argue that, because Bruisers have a temporary mitigation buff, they're clearly better suited to tanking on raids than plate classes. The French have a term for this line of thinking: <EM>Wtfvous plait</EM>.</P> <P>The only pseudo-valid point I've seen on this entire thread of whiny nonsense is that we need better 'snap-aggro', even though we have <EM>three </EM>different Rescue spells, and a shield slam that generates over 2,000 hate in one pop. Our snap-aggro. is arguably the best out of any tank class in the game. The only tricky thing about shadowknights is that we're very AA dependant once you're in the T7 area, but that doesn't mean a damned thing.. What class <EM>isn't</EM> AA dependant in order to reach their full potential? You can pull aggro. off of Guardians in full fabled with Master taunts while <EM>you're </EM>in defensive, if you know what you're doing. They simply require different playstyles.</P> <P> </P> <P>Seriously. I'd really like to know why these threads exist. I'm curious. It's like I'm playing a completely different game, where raid mobs are tankable by shadowknights with 11,000+ HP and 6,400 MIT., and where aggro. is maintained against raids with DPS that exceeds 12k, and where there's nothing horribly <EM>wrong </EM>with the shadowknight class, unlike the " Rest Of The World(TM) ", where Moss Snakes one-shot full fabled SKs who spend their lives selling their wives and daughters into slavery for a spot in Group 4 of a pick-up raid in Labs, and where the Level 36 Bruiser in Tenebrous Tangle who's <EM>only there to scout around for discoveries, </EM>happens to accidentally autoattack a 63^^^ Wyrm that the SK is ( barely ) tanking, and manages to not only peel aggro. off of him in one fell swoop of 3 crushing damage, but is actually invited to tank for that group because he seems to be taking less damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>I weep for " The Rest Of The World. " </P> <P> </P> <P>It's fun being an MT for a T7 Guild that's beaten Deathtoll to.. err.. death.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm not in full fabled.</P> <P> </P> <P>Later.</P>

[Nicholai24]

<DIV>We have, by the way, only 1 'slow' AE attack.. Death Circle.. and it's usable while moving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unending Misery casts in .5 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tap Veins casts in 1.8, provided you're smart and take the Strength line of AAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hammer Ground is usable, again, while moving, and casts in a very, very short time. Either .5 or 1 seconds.. Not sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doom Judgement. Usable while moving. Crits for 700ish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short, we basically have only 1 AE spell which can't be used while on the move, and it's not terribly slow: Tap Veins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unending Misery, which casts in under .5 seconds with Avenger Spellhaste, doesn't apply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have more blue AEs than any tank in the frickin' game, and we can even pick up Agility AAs for Trample, but I'm not that desperate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>What in God's name am I missing?!</EM></DIV>

[Ne]

<DIV>So your point being that SKs beat Zerkers in exactly what area?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can beat a T7 raids with a SK MT, sure. The point is that if you had had a good Zerker tanking instead you would beat the same instance both quicker and more safely, in every aspect. If not, your Zerker sucks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Oh, and yepp I still think the casting time for the AE's are long (when used as taunts). Unending misery works (0.5s, but deals the least damage per tick of all ae spells), but the others have between double and four times as long casting time compared to normal taunts. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>And about aa:s. Two things. 1) We only have 50 points and 2) Zerkers also get 50 points. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Bottom line: Noone says SKs are broken. But we are not at all balanced to Zerkers. The balance to guards, brawlers and pals is quite alright taking all aspects into account. The main imbalance may be that Zerks are OPd but I dont like to whine nerf nerf so I only write what I think would bring SKs up to par. If you use the dps-tank argument and consider Zerks dps they should tank like monks. If you consider the Zerkers tanking potential, they should deal dps like a Guardians...  (to be fair guards/zerks should do even less dps than guards do now, but that would break them completely in solo play, so not an option)</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nedo on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 AM</span>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Pestilence. The only DOT I'm aware of that has no set end time and theoretically no maximum to the amount of damage it can do. When wading through swaths of enemies, with enough proc items, this is what puts me above the zerkers and warlocks in the parse.<div></div>

[Nicholai24]

Bogus. " What do shadowknights do better than berserkers "..We do more damage ( or equal damage, at least ), and tank just as effectively. Shadowknights simply require someone with a brain behind the keyboard, whereas berserkers require little more than a pulse and some button mashing. When you say that 'Oh, sure, T7 raids can be beaten with an SK MT', you completely invalidate your entire argument. Of course they can be beaten with an SK MT. This load of tripe you spew about how it can be done 'more safely' with a 'good berserker or guardian' is idiotic. A shadowknight with 11,000 HP and a Guardian with 12 or 13, when both sit at 6,200 AC, will each absorb damage <i>JUST </i>as effectively, and the shadowknight's lifetap procs., wards, and spells <i>more </i>than make up for a slight HP disparity.Try using them sometime, and look at the parses. A shadowknight who conscientiously refreshes his lifetap ward has about as much healpower as a Level 60 Templar, combined with his capacity to take a punch. Do you remember pre-LU13, my young friend? Do you recall what our ward <i>used </i>to be? Do you remember how UBER we used to be with our super-powered 100 HP lifetaps? We weren't unbalanced then, either. I still MT'd everything, no sweat.What you're asking for is to make berserkers and shadowknights tank the same way, while allowing SKs to retain all of their utility. This isn't balancing. That's why Sony has developers who have large paychecks, and why those developers make the decisions on class changes after months of observation, and that is also why Developers rarely bother to look at these boards, when 90% of the things said are so far from the truth, that they're not even in the same area code. We're not broken, and we don't need any drastic changes. Would I like more HP? Sure, who wouldn't, but don't tell me that SKs are unbalanced because we have lifetaps instead of slightly larger HP levels. If an 11.5k SK dies on a Tarinax raid, the 12.5k berserker would have, too.If not, your healers must suck.Shadowknights are not fit to raidtank as QUICKLY as a berserker, in terms of level of equipment. Yes, it's a little harder for us to work our way to the AC cap. However, with the same group buffs, and the same levels of equipment, there is nothing that a berserker does on a raid that's 'better' or 'worse' than us. Vision of Madness is a joke, and if you survive a raid because of it, you got lucky. Period. Temp.MIT buffs are stupid in a raid, because there's no T7 raid encounter that takes 30 seconds to beat, and there sure as Hell isn't much benefit to 7,500 AC, when the cap is around 1,000+ lower.I'm going to end the post here, because it's an exercise in futility. I should have known that when I saw you claim that paladins are balanced. Excuse me for a few minutes, I have to lock myself in a room so the neighbors don't think I'm a lunatic when I fall into fits of hysterical laughter.<div></div>

[Dogm]

<DIV>Wasn't going to reply to this thread because most "new" SKs just don't have a clue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> Temp.MIT buffs are stupid in a raid, because there's no T7 raid encounter that takes 30 seconds to beat<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, but it can take 30 seconds to debuff the encounter.</DIV>

[DUNN]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>Bogus. " What do shadowknights do better than berserkers "..<BR><BR>We do more damage ( or equal damage, at least ), and tank just as effectively. Shadowknights simply require someone with a brain behind the keyboard, whereas berserkers require little more than a pulse and some button mashing. When you say that 'Oh, sure, T7 raids can be beaten with an SK MT', you completely invalidate your entire argument. Of course they can be beaten with an SK MT. This load of tripe you spew about how it can be done 'more safely' with a 'good berserker or guardian' is idiotic. A shadowknight with 11,000 HP and a Guardian with 12 or 13, when both sit at 6,200 AC, will each absorb damage <I>JUST </I>as effectively, and the shadowknight's lifetap procs., wards, and spells <I>more </I>than make up for a slight HP disparity.<BR><BR>Try using them sometime, and look at the parses. A shadowknight who conscientiously refreshes his lifetap ward has about as much healpower as a Level 60 Templar, combined with his capacity to take a punch. Do you remember pre-LU13, my young friend? Do you recall what our ward <I>used </I>to be? Do you remember how UBER we used to be with our super-powered 100 HP lifetaps? We weren't unbalanced then, either. I still MT'd everything, no sweat.<BR><BR>What you're asking for is to make berserkers and shadowknights tank the same way, while allowing SKs to retain all of their utility. This isn't balancing. That's why Sony has developers who have large paychecks, and why those developers make the decisions on class changes after months of observation, and that is also why Developers rarely bother to look at these boards, when 90% of the things said are so far from the truth, that they're not even in the same area code. We're not broken, and we don't need any drastic changes. Would I like more HP? Sure, who wouldn't, but don't tell me that SKs are unbalanced because we have lifetaps instead of slightly larger HP levels. If an 11.5k SK dies on a Tarinax raid, the 12.5k berserker would have, too.<BR><BR>If not, your healers must suck.<BR><BR>Shadowknights are not fit to raidtank as QUICKLY as a berserker, in terms of level of equipment. Yes, it's a little harder for us to work our way to the AC cap. However, with the same group buffs, and the same levels of equipment, there is nothing that a berserker does on a raid that's 'better' or 'worse' than us. Vision of Madness is a joke, and if you survive a raid because of it, you got lucky. Period. Temp.MIT buffs are stupid in a raid, because there's no T7 raid encounter that takes 30 seconds to beat, and there sure as Hell isn't much benefit to 7,500 AC, when the cap is around 1,000+ lower.<BR><BR><BR>I'm going to end the post here, because it's an exercise in futility. I should have known that when I saw you claim that paladins are balanced. Excuse me for a few minutes, I have to lock myself in a room so the neighbors don't think I'm a lunatic when I fall into fits of hysterical laughter.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>????? i do not understand it might be me but things you said just don't add up.  Just doesn't seem like what you said would hold true other than we can tank T7 raids succesfully .

[Nicholai24]

Okay. You got me. There's a super-sekret programming line which actually makes shadowknights mitigation 10% less damage than any other tank class ( and also, brigands.. ) , even if they have the same MIT. level. What part about what I said ' doesn't add up '? Are you sure you didn't forget to carry the 1?As to the 'It takes 30 seconds to debuff an encounter'.. What encounter are you talking about? In a raid, anything above 6,500 MIT. or so is inconsequential, and you can get to 6,500 MIT. without a temporary mitigation buff, anyway, in the MT group. In an instance zone like HoF or somesuch, it'll be harder, but I've tanked Nizara and Nektropos 3.0 reasonably easily in spite of it, and didn't notice much difference in mitigated damage between myself and a 'zerker pal, even when I let him take over while I switched to Offensive stance. The disparities aren't as huge as some people make them out to be.<div></div>

[Ne]

<P><FONT color=#ccff00>Oh my god...  </FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>Bogus. " What do shadowknights do better than berserkers "..<BR><BR>We do more damage ( or equal damage, at least ), and tank just as effectively. Shadowknights simply require someone with a brain behind the keyboard, whereas berserkers require little more than a pulse and some button mashing.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Eh, no. Zerkers are easier to play, might be, but a good zerker will <EM>always</EM> be better than a good SK, every day of the week and in<EM> every aspect</EM> except PvP. A offense-specced Zerker in a dps-group in dps-gear kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] simply as that... you do more than 2k dps on a raid encounter with your SK? Gratz and GG! Seriously, very little in EQ2 "require someone with a brain". It's slow paced and repetetive. Dealing DPS is trivial with any class, if you don't get it close to optimized within 1 hour of gameplay you probably never will. </FONT></P> <P> When you say that 'Oh, sure, T7 raids can be beaten with an SK MT', you completely invalidate your entire argument. Of course they can be beaten with an SK MT. This load of tripe you spew about how it can be done 'more safely' with a 'good berserker or guardian' is idiotic. A shadowknight with 11,000 HP and a Guardian with 12 or 13, when both sit at 6,200 AC, will each absorb damage <I>JUST </I>as effectively, and the shadowknight's lifetap procs., wards, and spells <I>more </I>than make up for a slight HP disparity.<BR><BR>Try using them sometime, and look at the parses. A shadowknight who conscientiously refreshes his lifetap ward has about as much healpower as a Level 60 Templar, combined with his capacity to take a punch. Do you remember pre-LU13, my young friend? Do you recall what our ward <I>used </I>to be? Do you remember how UBER we used to be with our super-powered 100 HP lifetaps? We weren't unbalanced then, either. I still MT'd everything, no sweat.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>This comment just shows you're an ignorant fool. I can not read it any other way, "old friend". If you dont understand that quicker and better aggro buildup leads to more safe early dps and quicker fights and quicker raids with less wipes I don't know what to say. Why do it slower when you can do it faster? Oh, and you can still cast the ward on your MT if he is tanking, and it wont even be interupted so we will get it off smoother when not tanking. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT><BR>What you're asking for is to make berserkers and shadowknights tank the same way, while allowing SKs to retain all of their utility. This isn't balancing. That's why Sony has developers who have large paychecks, and why those developers make the decisions on class changes after months of observation, and that is also why Developers rarely bother to look at these boards, when 90% of the things said are so far from the truth, that they're not even in the same area code. We're not broken, and we don't need any drastic changes. Would I like more HP? Sure, who wouldn't, but don't tell me that SKs are unbalanced because we have lifetaps instead of slightly larger HP levels. If an 11.5k SK dies on a Tarinax raid, the 12.5k berserker would have, too.<BR><BR>If not, your healers must suck.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Once again, you did not even read my post before replying did you? Who said we are broken? Who said anything about drastic changes? Who asked to tank exactly like Zerkers? I don't even want to MT our raids, our zerker does it far far better and he should keep doing it.  That lets us finish the raids quicker. What I suggested was an increase in the initial component of our ae dots and make them quicker to get off. That would solve many things and would give us a clearer role as dps/offtank. You are the one that is talking about MTing. If you want to do it as efficient as a Zerker would <EM>you</EM> should ask for self-buffs and quicker aggro buildup, not I.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT><BR>Shadowknights are not fit to raidtank as QUICKLY as a berserker, in terms of level of equipment. Yes, it's a little harder for us to work our way to the AC cap. However, with the same group buffs, and the same levels of equipment, there is nothing that a berserker does on a raid that's 'better' or 'worse' than us. Vision of Madness is a joke, and if you survive a raid because of it, you got lucky. Period. Temp.MIT buffs are stupid in a raid, because there's no T7 raid encounter that takes 30 seconds to beat, and there sure as Hell isn't much benefit to 7,500 AC, when the cap is around 1,000+ lower.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Oh my god. 30s buffs are useless? What do you think happens the first 30s of an epic fight? Probably nothing important... Oh, right, there is this thing about the target being seriously debuffed ofcourse, decreasing its damage output... probably not important. And 'better' or 'worse'? Try 1) quicker aggro buildup 2) more solid aggro 3) a <EM>true</EM> AE taunt 4) more tanking dps 5) more <EM>snap</EM> aggro from AE. 6) somewhat larger HP buffer (absolutely <EM>does</EM> matter! Some mobs deal massive spikes and taking it may prevent a wipe) and 7) the 30s buffs (used when pulling). <BR></FONT><BR>I'm going to end the post here, because it's an exercise in futility. I should have known that when I saw you claim that paladins are balanced. Excuse me for a few minutes, I have to lock myself in a room so the neighbors don't think I'm a lunatic when I fall into fits of hysterical laughter.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Bye. Don't choke..<BR></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR><p>Message Edited by Nedo on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[Dogm]

<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>As to the 'It takes 30 seconds to debuff an encounter'.. What encounter are you talking about? In a raid, anything above 6,500 MIT. or so is inconsequential, and you can get to 6,500 MIT. without a temporary mitigation buff, anyway, in the MT group. In an instance zone like HoF or somesuch, it'll be harder, but I've tanked Nizara and Nektropos 3.0 reasonably easily in spite of it, and didn't notice much difference in mitigated damage between myself and a 'zerker pal, even when I let him take over while I switched to Offensive stance. The disparities aren't as huge as some people make them out to be.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Group stuff doesnt matter, this thread was about raids.    Yes we can mitigate hits just as well as a Warrior with the exact same mitigation , only problem with that is that with IDENTICAL gear a Warrior will have more mitigation from their APs, and more HPs due to being a Warrior.    And as for over 6500 mit being useless, well you don't quite understand how orange raid mobs work or don't realize that mobs get the same debuffs (and more) as players, so take a peek at Despoil.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>08-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[Bruener]

<P>Honestly the Devs just do not listen to SK's.  There is no reason that a bezerker should have the best of both worlds.  They are able to be awesome DPS and they have the ability to be one of the best defensive tanks in the game next to guardians.  Personally I would like to see it put right...make the Guardians and Paladins the big defensive tanks for end raids since they are the defensive tanks and put SK's on the same level as Bezerkers.  Right now the problem isn't that SK's are way underpowered its that Bezerkers are overpowered in being able to fill 2 roles...one of DPS or one of Raid MT, and not miss a beat doing it.</P> <P>So yeah.  Nerf away.</P>

[minionofdeath]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bruener wrote:<div></div> <p>Honestly the Devs just do not listen to SK's.  There is no reason that a bezerker should have the best of both worlds.  They are able to be awesome DPS and they have the ability to be one of the best defensive tanks in the game next to guardians.  Personally I would like to see it put right...make the Guardians and Paladins the big defensive tanks for end raids since they are the defensive tanks and put SK's on the same level as Bezerkers.  Right now the problem isn't that SK's are way underpowered its that Bezerkers are overpowered in being able to fill 2 roles...one of DPS or one of Raid MT, and not miss a beat doing it.</p> <p>So yeah.  Nerf away.</p><hr></blockquote>Yet from where I sit, the Pallies in our guild parse higher than the scouts, summoners and mages on T7 raid content.  Why?  Because they figured out just exactly what they needed to do in order to extra the best dps from their gear, spells and AA lines.  Only once as a Beserker have I ever parsed higher than one of the pallies and that was in an aoe encounter.  I've never parsed higher than both and almost always am between by both.  I have dueled SK's and been bashed to a pulp so bad, it makes dueling a Bruiser feeling like beating on a lvl 1 beetle.  I loose to Bruisers in duels btw too lol.Anyway my point is that SK's have some amazing abilities and CAN do some incredible dps.  My point about Pallies in my guild parsing higher than most on a very regular situation means SKs should be up there too.  SK's are the more offensive of the 2 classes.  The problem is you are seeing things you don't have and are not focusing on what you do have and can do.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there not a post from an SK soloing a T7 x2 epic mob in Temple of Scale?  Apart from maybe a Brawler or possibly a Summoner, there's no way in God's creation that a Guardian or Beserker would ever achieve that.I'll be honest and say I've never played an SK.  But I've been side by side with some since EQ2 first came out and what I've seen them do in parses and play skills leads me to believe this whole SK "we are so [Removed for Content], I'm gonna shoot myself" situation seems silly.</div>

[Kryptonix]

Only time a pally continually parses higher than me is when hes the MT and buffed to do so. Dunno what your pallies have been shooting up, but they need to share some of their uber roids. Maybe our pallies suck then? /shrug<div></div>

[minionofdeath]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kryptonix wrote:Only time a pally continually parses higher than me is when hes the MT and buffed to do so. Dunno what your pallies have been shooting up, but they need to share some of their uber roids. Maybe our pallies suck then? /shrug<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't know what they are doing, but one of them is regularly in the MT group for his mit transfer.  The other is normally in the MA or 2nd MT group.  They parse so often up top or near the top of the list, most people don't even bat an eyelid anymore.  Personally I have no problem whatsover with this as I know both players have put in an enormous amount of time in gearing their toons etc., their spells and have chosen AA lines to crit their spells etc.  I do know both use slow delay weapons.  As a Beserker, I'm not crying foul due to their parsing more than me dps wise.  Some peeps will do better than others no matter what class they play.  I don't see this as a class or spell or balance issue at all, but rather one of skill in knowing how to play your class.</div>

[Kryptonix]

I am gonna go ahead and clap for this reply. You seem to understand that another persons ability has nothing to do with yours. Something a lot of people dont seem to understand.<div></div>

[Seffrid]

<P>Can someone please link me to the the rule that states that all classes must be equal in everything?</P> <P>If you think a berserker is a better/more fun class to play than a shadowknight then play one. It's that simple.</P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seffrid wrote:<BR> <P>Can someone please link me to the the rule that states that all classes must be equal in everything?</P> <P>If you think a berserker is a better/more fun class to play than a shadowknight then play one. It's that simple.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because raid slots are precious and if we can not compete in either tanking or dps compared to beserkers then those slots will go to other classes.  Sorry you don't understand that simple fact. As for fun, haven't seen anyone state SK aren't fun, they are, but raiding enviroment we are lacking, as of LU13 we where suppose to be basicly equal in tanking and dps vs beserkers (different but basicly equal in the ability to fill those two jobs).  </P> <P>Between the combanition of the fact that Beserkers can pump up over 2k in dps while tanking (this is against teir 7 group epic mobs), have the best aggro in the game and are second in taking hits, it brings up questions on what we are suppose to excell in.</P> <P>As for one persons comment of saying a SK can out dps a beserker .... must be nice to be delisional, because its not true.  In offensive we can keep close to beserker, in defensive its not even close.  As for another persons statement that 1000 hps don't make a difference when tanking, it makes a huge difference when the mob produces a damage spike (mobs can crit too you know).</P> <P>Simple fact is that beserkers own us in HPs (not a big problem with this becuase we have LT), mitigation (big problem), aggro (big problem), and beserkers will beat you in dps (depending on group/gear setup of course, but all things equal they will beat you)</P> <P>I've tanked tier 7 raid mobs, all my armor is fabled, jewlery is legendary, and most of my skills are master or at least adept 3, when I tank I take more damage then our beserker, do less dps and have greater trouble keeping hate.</P>

[minionofdeath]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Margen wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Seffrid wrote: <div></div> <p>Can someone please link me to the the rule that states that all classes must be equal in everything?</p> <p>If you think a berserker is a better/more fun class to play than a shadowknight then play one. It's that simple.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Because raid slots are precious and if we can not compete in either tanking or dps compared to beserkers then those slots will go to other classes.  Sorry you don't understand that simple fact. As for fun, haven't seen anyone state SK aren't fun, they are, but raiding enviroment we are lacking, as of LU13 we where suppose to be basicly equal in tanking and dps vs beserkers (different but basicly equal in the ability to fill those two jobs).  </p> <p>Between the combanition of the fact that Beserkers can pump up over 2k in dps <u><font color="#ffff00"><b>while tanking</b></font></u> (this is against teir 7 group epic mobs), have the best aggro in the game and are second in taking hits, it brings up questions on what we are suppose to excell in.</p><font color="#ff9900">The key here is while tanking.  Not only does the MT get all the buffs, procs and other such single cast spells placed upon him in his own group, spells that can be cast raid wide are also placed upon him.  A huge portion of the MT's dps is simply reactive procs triggering when he get's damaged.  Replace that MT with any other fighter and you'll see the exact same result.  Secondly, having the best agro in game as you say is not the full story.  It's AOE agro that a Beserker excells in.  Not ALL forms of agro control are equal.  Brawlers and Pallies have the best single target agro from my experiences.  Thirdly, you said against "group epic mobs", so was this an AOE encounter or a single target?  The picture becomes more clear when you factor in the AOE side of the story.  Beserkers have 2 Ancient Spells that do/proc AOE damage, ontop of the non Ancient AOE spells.  Also another AOE spell can be gained by spending points in an AA line.</font><p></p> <p>As for one persons comment of saying a SK can out dps a beserker .... must be nice to be delisional, because its not true.  In offensive we can keep close to beserker, in defensive its not even close.  As for another persons statement that 1000 hps don't make a difference when tanking, it makes a huge difference when the mob produces a damage spike (mobs can crit too you know).<font color="#ff9900">I'm not sure who this is directed at.  I made a post about Pallies parsing up top on a regular day to day scale.  There's no reason why an SK cannot be doing the same.  SK's are the more offensive fighter in that archetype.  So if a Pally can be putting out very respectable numbers, an SK can as well.  No need to call me? delusional.  I not only see the parses in the guild raid dps channel, but I parse them myself.  Am I speaking for all players worldwide?  of course not.  I'm speaking about my own personal experiences.  And when I say our Pallies parse near the top of ALL raids, it is factual. </font></p><p></p><p>Simple fact is that <b><u><font color="#ffff00">beserkers own us in HPs</font></u></b> (not a big problem with this becuase we have LT), mitigation (big problem), aggro (big problem), and beserkers will beat you in dps (depending on group/gear setup of course, but all things equal they will beat you)</p><font color="#ff9900">Can you eleborate on this?  Beserkers contain not one HP buff.  Zilch, Nada, Zip, Nothing.  No HP buffs of any kind.  No STA buffs either.  So unless Crusaders or SK's handle STA differently in it's calculation of HP gain, you are confusing Beserkers with Guardians.  I've not seen the full set of SK's spells so I don't know what the MIT situation is like.  However if you want to cry about something, I saw a Brigand with 5200K self buffed MIT.  HPs were higher than mine, avoidance was higher than mine.  Am I sore about it?  No.  Why?  Because I know that player spent points in MIT AAs, HPs etc. and put the time into spec'ing their toon how they want to play it.  Concerning your agro, I have heard SKs do suffer from this.  Address this in more detail and leave the class-envy, or "we are so [Removed for Content], God please kill me" out of the equation.  You might get more attention to your concerns that way.</font> <p>I've tanked tier 7 raid mobs, all my armor is fabled, jewlery is legendary, and most of my skills are master or at least adept 3, when I tank I take more damage then our beserker, do less dps and have greater trouble keeping hate.</p><hr></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by minionofdeath on <span class=date_text>08-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 PM</span>

[jddro]

<P>i dunno, my sk in EQ1 was MA for SSRA for about 3 months straight til our pally got geared enough to help, then I moved on to bigger and better things, I was MT'n most of planes ... cept for top 3 ... couldnt get in enough raids to get the gear. but unbuffed i was at almost 7-8khp and raid buffed i poped just under 14k .... now coming back to EQ2 I am hopin i can do close to the same, but from what Im reading it sounds like it will never happen ...</P> <P> </P> <P>owells ... i love the sk class always have and always regardless of (how much i suck as a MT)</P>

[Wendingo]

<P>I do not think SKs are broken, but it does seem almost as if SoE has them in EQ2 because they were in EQ1 and has not given the class any thought beyond that.  In EQ1 the excuse was (and this also went for the other "hybrids") is that you had the aspects of two classes so you should not expect to be as good at any particular task as the "pure" version, but that you would be more versitile.  I think this held up really well generally. SK was not the optimal raid tank, but could do it and was, to my thinking, more desireable in groups because it could do more.  I think part of the problem in EQ2 is that there are so many more classes.  Sure you can tank a raid.  Sure you can tank a group.  However, you are not anybody's first choice in either role.  Nor are we too close to the top for any other role.  Again, it does not mean we cannot contribute.  That is not the point.  The point is where someone is putting a list together, "Mighty Bob" who happens to be an SK might be on it because the raid leader likes mighty Bob and knows he can do it, but "we need an SK to do [task]" is not.  I think what folks are crying out for is a reason to want an SK along in preference to anyone else.  </P> <P>Personally, I do not think it is that big a deal, but I get their point.</P> <P>By the way, we do one thing better than any other tank class on a PvE server - solo.  :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P>

[Vexorkane]

<DIV>I'm not entirely positive where the basis of this argument(?) went, but what I see is a lot of convoluted testimony about the purpose of the Shadowknight, and what we should be compared to.  These type of topics are ridden with subjectivity and will never lead to anything official about being a Shadowknight.  So, let me progress this theme a bit..</DIV> <DIV>I have been a Shadowknight since day one and have loved every minute of it.  The biggest reason probably being that I hold no mispreconceptions about what a Shadowknight is.  I have been raiding since t5 and my guild is currently capable of clearing every zone t7 has to offer on a daily basis.  I digress.  In my experience I have been able to tank/ma any mob with the proper group set ups, thats right there is no "I" in team.. it takes cooperation in this game to be successful, not the skills of one sole class.  Further more, I can parse top 5 consistently on any raid and occasionally number one =D (ok, very rarely)</DIV> <DIV>Most of the time, however, I am either in the MT group to utilize the mitigation transfer on our Guardian, but other than that I'm either in a dps group which is set up to take advantage of eachothers buffs  *ahem*(classified) or MA group.  Granted, Warriors do hold aggro a little more gracefully than Crusaders, but this by no means is reason to think they are better or more suited for [insert here] role than us.  I must admit it does take a little more resourcefulness on our part to maintain aggro in most situations, and in group encounters Zerkers will more than likely out dps a Shadowknight.</DIV> <DIV>Our class is not broken, and we are not a dying breed.  There are some aspects of our class that may be 'lacking,' however, these shortcomings can easily be overcome with a little thought/effort, as in specing for the role you wish to play most and grouping with the proper classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really want to be uber though, just be an Iksar.    </DIV> <DIV>To each their own.  </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Vexorkane on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[Coica]

so. I have heard some say its hard to find a spot on raids, I have heard others say they can raid just fine. I love going on raids. so far my experience has been great,weather I am MT or going DPS.  I think I'll go with the positive people. when you think you can do something chances are greater you'll do it rather than thinking you cant do something...odds are you wont. but thanks for sharing,seriously.<div></div>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> minionofdeath wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Between the combanition of the fact that Beserkers can pump up over 2k in dps <U><FONT color=#ffff00><B>while tanking</B></FONT></U> (this is against teir 7 group epic mobs), have the best aggro in the game and are second in taking hits, it brings up questions on what we are suppose to excell in.</P><FONT color=#ff9900>The key here is while tanking.  Not only does the MT get all the buffs, procs and other such single cast spells placed upon him in his own group, spells that can be cast raid wide are also placed upon him.  A huge portion of the MT's dps is simply reactive procs triggering when he get's damaged.  Replace that MT with any other fighter and you'll see the exact same result.  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thats exactly the reason why all these discussions about DPS on raids are total bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Not one class ever will normally do anything near to these damage numbers that always were posted here if solo or in a normal group. Take a group of maybe a zerker a ranger and a warden and look what the zerker will parse then, and you will see maybe 250-350 dps or whatever ..  and that is what the pure DPS of a zerker is. All the rest is only how synergys work, and the real problem is maybe that there are more procs and debuffs and whatever synergys out there in a raid that give more benefits to a melee heavy fighter then a caster.<BR>

[Ne]

<DIV>Zerk DPS > SK DPS, still. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday our Guard tanked and the Zerker was DPS. He did ~700-1200 dps while our 2 SKs did ~600-950 dps. All of us were in good dps groups. The biggest annoyance is that he is fully specced/aa:ed for MTing while both me and the other SK have quite offensice aa:s. So at the end of the day we are worse at everything except soloing compared to da zerkers. </DIV>

[Beldin_]

Btw.: to make it even worse, don't forget that guardians do 1000 dps only with bow autoattack <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nicholai24]

1,200 DPS from a Tank spec'd zerker is nothing special. Most of their AA's are semi-offensive, no matter which path they choose. Offensively spec'd shadowknights should be parsing over 1,200 on a regular basis, assuming you're AA'd and Master'd out. No clue what the issue is. <div></div>

[Nicholai24]

I don't understand how orange encounters work? Christ, man, no one has exact figures on whether or not mitigation boosted vastly over the cap has much, if any, effect on an encounter's DPS output. I guess you could say it wouldn't hurt, but the cap is still the cap until a Dev says otherwise. We've parsed no significant changes in damage output between myself, raidbuffed up to 6,547, and a 'zerker with 7,200. Yes, fine, you'll be able to 'take' the armor class debuffs easier if you have boosted armor, but these are cured within a second of being on you, and enemies have reload times on their debuffs as well. None of these things are significant at all. The question of doing it 'faster' or 'slower' is nothing more than an extra four seconds at the start of an encounter, and whether or not it's 'better' to do it 'faster', I'm leading the raid. When I'm leading the raid, and I say, ' hold DPS ', DPS is held. Believe it or not, most raids don't send their DPS in immediately after a raid encounter is pulled.That's why God invented the MA, who calls in DPS when the tank gives the go-ahead. Cool concept, huh.<div></div>

[minionofdeath]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nedo wrote:<div>Zerk DPS > SK DPS, still. </div> <div> </div> <div>Yesterday our Guard tanked and the Zerker was DPS. He did ~700-1200 dps while our 2 SKs did ~600-950 dps. All of us were in good dps groups. The biggest annoyance is that he is fully specced/aa:ed for MTing while both me and the other SK have quite offensice aa:s. So at the end of the day we are worse at everything except soloing compared to da zerkers. </div><hr></blockquote>Like many others, you neglect to give any specifics.  Was this an AOE encounter, single target or what exactly?Take a Warlock to POF or PPtR and let them loose on the linked group mobs.  You'll see 5-10k dps in these encounters.I have to say your SKs are pretty lackluster.  When a Paladin can do 1000-1200K on fights, why are your SKs not able to?  SKs are the more offensive of the 2.Zerkers have more AOE spells for dps.  If a Beserker and Shadow Knight are both of equal level, gear and master/adept3s, a Beserker is most likely (not always but likely) to do more dps than the Shadow Knight if the encounter is AOE.  On single targets, the SK should be doing more.Giving us numbers of 700-1200 means little when you give no details at all of what kind of mobs you were killing, whether they debuffed against melee damage verses magical etc.I'm not one for keeping anyone down, but honestly I'm starting to believe there really isn't a problem with your class.</div>

[Ne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>1,200 DPS from a Tank spec'd zerker is nothing special. Most of their AA's are semi-offensive, no matter which path they choose. Offensively spec'd shadowknights should be parsing over 1,200 on a regular basis, assuming you're AA'd and Master'd out. No clue what the issue is. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Absolute nr:s are not important, depends on parser, target level, nr of targets and raid composition etc. The point was that the zerker dps:es some 20% higher than any of the SKs so its safe to say that zerker dps is better without sacrificing any tanking capability. Everyone in fabled/masters.</P> <P>Edit: re: just average nr's from all encounters in that raid...  mix of singles and small groups of 2-3. No zerglings...  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Nedo on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 AM</span>

[plantb]

<P>I've been set to grab adds in a couple of raids now.</P> <P>1) Crab - When the adds repop I have a macro that targets them and taunts (M2 AE) all at the same time, yet an add will still kill a healer.</P> <P>2)HoS - One of the named encounters - Some of them resisted the taunt, Tap Veins eather got resisted or interupted - Cus of that, it all went to crap and raid wiped.  Insolent Gibe would of been a God send then.</P> <P>3)DT against Tarin - A add got onto a healer and there was no way i could pull him off, HT and rescue were used on pullin a add off the OT.</P> <P>As for mitigation... Well I say, the higher it is the better.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Saeldar]

I think the SK is mostly fine. We need some tweaking, but nothing really dramatic. Our biggest issue is stats dependancy...we need almost everything...while most other tanks can concentrate on just 2-3 at most. Our stances should buff 2 stats...have offensive buff int and str by the same amount it buffes int now. Have defensive buff wis and sta like it does wis now.Have our unhallowed strenght buff...buff 3 stats instead of 2. This would solve most of our dependancy on so many stats. No classes beside crusaders are so dependant on many stats.The second problem is casting time...mostly on our reactive heal, and lifetap. It's part of the balance equation for us to tank properly...yet the slow casting time, the constant interrupts often makes it harder for us to cast them. Lower the casting time, and augment the recast by the same amount...at least on the reactive heal.Snap aggro is a big issue...we do well with aggro in general...it's when we loose it that it goes bad. We don't need to generate more aggro...we need to generate it faster.Fix death march...it's great, and at the same time mostly useless.Small tweaks really.

[Xanoth]

no one ever seems to mention the lack of INT on tanking gear as being a problem. bad itemisation IMO is our biggest enemy right now.most tanks dont have agro problems because for them getting thier str capped is as assured as the fact that tehy are wearing armour. for us its almost impossible to cap your int in your defencive stance... its useful that our defencive stance gives wisdom though, i feel its put to great use when its over 700 and my int is about 250...

[Ne]

<DIV>A guess is that after LU13 crusaders were supposed to be the best tank against caster epics... but it didnt turn out that way because it is too easy to cap all resists. If that was harder and the resist/wis increased we could be excellent wis-tanks.  I've heard that word before... Wis-tank... but it never meant anything.   </DIV>

[Wendingo]

<DIV>Good point on the wis.  That is just like in EQ1.  Both clerics and pallys wore plate and needed wis and that seemed to be where all the design thought went.  Nobody ever considered plate and int except on SK specific loot which generally is quested because nobody else wants it.  On the stance I bet they just lazily just used the same coding for pallys and SKs and gave no thought whatsoever to the thought that SKs have no use for a big wis boost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Quaan]

<blockquote><hr>Nicholai24 wrote:Shadowknights are not fit to raidtank as QUICKLY as a berserker, in terms of level of equipment. Yes, it's a little harder for us to work our way to the AC cap. However, with the same group buffs, and the same levels of equipment, there is nothing that a berserker does on a raid that's 'better' or 'worse' than us. Period. Temp. MIT buffs are stupid in a raid, because there's no T7 raid encounter that takes 30 seconds to beat, and there sure as Hell isn't much benefit to 7,500 AC, when the cap is around 1,000+ lower.<div></div><hr></blockquote>What exactly is the AC cap vs a level 75 mob?30 secs from my defiler (yes, I made a raid useful char) = slowed, dps reduced, attributes decreased by 1/3 etc. The encounter may not be beaten in 30 secs but it sure is weaker. Those burst buffs give a very nice buffer in which to lay debuffs down.Regarding the "nothing" the zerker does on the raid better or worse, I would say the "nothing handles a big encounter better than a zerker" to be the one you are struggling to grasp. Nothing = aggro management tools. Lose your hate givers and the raid is screwed.Super MT group buffs give the zerker its huge dps when tanking? Dunno what your MT group looks like but ours usually has 3 healers in it, not exactly a dps combination yet zerkers can out dmg dps classes in a group built for dps....Kudos to your guild if they have got that far with a SK as MT, they took the hard road and most likely the mender/repair kit supplier thanks you for it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Vexorkane]

<DIV>Quaan, your biased opinons are exactly what I was talking about.  You should have a little more faith in the game designers and their choices to balance the game (class ability wise).  And Xanoth,  I'm not sure what your MT group setup looks like but try putting a Dirge/Coercer in there with you. I do agree though, unless you raid a lot it's very hard to find the great Int armor (think jewelry/symbols), however, on a good day I can get upwards of 500+ Intel while tanking.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Vexorkane on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Ya, im the one who rolled and Lved a Zerker to Lv 70 just to look at Class Vs Class, my main SK has almost full master (still missing smash lol) ans a mix of ledge. and fable..  dont give me none of this u dont know ur class crap, i waz a SK 8 years ago prolly before most knew what a SK was, this is the default flame now a days .. No #'s or facts to post?.. Well Flame him as a Ebay NOOB!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, yes i have lved and sat down with a pencil and paper to crunch the #'s between the 2 classes, and the result should be frowned apon by SOE. SKs do get abilities that the bezerker do not have access to, such as FD and Evac, and likewise Zerkers get +Mitigation short term buffs. But in EVERY Common area such as Taunts, AE, HPs, DPS, Defense, AP lines, the Beserker Wins hands down. plus the Zerk has a Striaght up out-of-encounter AE Taunt, which also procs a Encounter taunt every time he is hit for 30 secs. Examlpe... Assumption on 4 mob add encounter with 50% aviodance, mobs attack speed of 2s and (h <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> = hate , (m) = per mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gibe activated.. 1200h+ (350h x2m x (30s/2s)) = 10,500 pure h on none-targeted encounter from Gibe alone. u can go ahead and Add the regular taunts to the engaged encounter on top of that due to them being also within Gibe range and effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOT counting passive buff taunt or AE damage, only Gibe will make 10k+ AE all-encounter hate within 30s. SKs do not have an ability even close to that, and SOE knows it by now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On Damage output Bezerkers have some pretty devistating AE spells and AP/ CA combos. Also given the Warrior Stamina (Buckler) line with Double attack @76% of the time, a 74.1DR (Shadow Axe btw) translates into 112.5DR, add to that the Zerks AE tricks like open wounds (100% front 180degree-AE melee for 30 secs) and there dps goes thru the roof. All these posts on the Zerkers total parsing 1200-1500+ dps over 2-3 HOUR raids is true. i have personally seen a ACT parse of a Zerk Raid parsing 2000+ dps in several encounters very close to each other, like maby every other encounter, not my zerk btw.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not mistake this post as a Flame to SKs!! for it is not. it is only the cold hard #s iv have seen for myself of these 2 classes. Facts. If u think Facts = Flame, then i am sorry for the insult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as i am now conserned, the Debate on SKs Vs other tanks is a closed subject. If i was a Lumberjack, for every Big Red Axe a SK has, the Zerker has a Steehl Chain Saw with a 36'' bar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE knows every class, hell they built them,  they know parseing, dps, mits, hps, everything. yet the disparity between the SK class and the other 3 plate tanks is quite large in many important areas. SOE DOES need to reevaluate the SK class OR just post .. All Working As Intended.. on this SK forum, to be frank and honest with the SK player base.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to know where SOE stands with the SK class/community so i can make some decisions of my own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy Izbad</DIV> <DIV>70/70/50 sk/armorer</DIV> <DIV>Ahdam Smashr</DIV> <DIV>70/0/20 zerk</DIV> <DIV>Cinnz Izbad</DIV> <DIV>70/0/50 defiler                  .......      so ya, i know a little about lv 70 lol....</DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV>On Damage output Bezerkers have some pretty devistating AE spells and AP/ CA combos. Also given the Warrior Stamina (Buckler) line with Double attack @76% of the time, a 74.1DR (Shadow Axe btw) translates into 112.5DR, add to that the Zerks AE tricks like open wounds (100% front 180degree-AE melee for 30 secs) and there dps goes thru the roof. All these posts on the Zerkers total parsing 1200-1500+ dps over 2-3 HOUR raids is true. i have personally seen a ACT parse of a Zerk Raid parsing 2000+ dps in several encounters very close to each other, like maby every other encounter, not my zerk btw. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok .. someone now only has to upload such a logfile, do some screenies of that .. and if its all really true .. post it at the wizards board .. they've got rangers nerfed into oblivion because they did a little more damage even if they SHOULD be T1 damage .. they shurely will manage to get zerkers nerfed down to max 50dps then <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Vexorkane]

<P>See, now thats something concrete.  Nerf Zerkers <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Or better yet, make Shadowknights overpowered!?</P>

[Wendingo]

I think all this SK vs. zerker stuff misses the point a little.  Is the point that SK's are inferior to every other tank class or just the zerkers (for those who hold that opinion, please do not flame me).  What about SK vs. the other tank classes?  It just seems to me that we are a lot better off in this game that in EQ1.  There may be clear advantages here or there but at least there is no "holy trinity" like there was there.   If the only issue is how we stack up against the zerker, no matter where you are on that point, I think we are pretty OK. 

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Wendi: yes these r the exact questions that need to be answered, and adressed. i will indeed assume the question of SK Vs others is a honest question (so many trolls now a days 8/ ). From a Lv 70 Raid stand point.....</DIV> <DIV>Guardians: out tank SKs stright up, more HPs, aggro skills, ToS, and Mit (short terms, but still effect overall inc  heals needed), Stamina Line APed prolly = SK DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beserkers: covered  i think</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins: Have everything SKs have for DPS/tank ability buffs, +Amends line buff (very strong versitale aggro control, can be put on a high dps unit for deaggro on them), larger heals/wards group and single target, 100% HP combat Rezz. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I DO NOT beleive in class nerfage for balanceing purposes. if anyhting, Tweek SKs DPS on  single target and improve buffs to be better utilized in a raid setting, and crusaders in general r too Stat dependent (afterthought).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shalla: Yes the issue of the zerker/SK dps is touchy imo. when classes were re-balanced (rebalanced @ 1year into game still makes me LOL) the DPS were divided into teirs with all classes fitting into one or another. it was Clearly Stated and Posted by Mooreguard that DPS between Zerkers and SKs were to be equivelent due to there offensive tank nature, and that is why i choose the Zerk to compare too. i have never seen a raid zone complete parse where the SK waz withink id say 20-25% DPS of the Zerker. over the corse of 2,3,or 4 hrs of parses the true average dps of any class becomes apparent. OR when 1 specific class is replaced by another class and the Whole Raid DPS increases every parse. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally understand why some do not play by the #'s and that is totally fine way to play, But if u are interested in the #'s SKs fall short vs a Zerk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nickolis: Qaan is correct in his statement of Above cap mitigation showing returns on lv 70+ mobs. there are several posts and inc-damage parses that show a return on Mit all the way up to 8000 mitigation Vs lv75. if u ask on the guardian board im sure they will be more than happy to direct u to them as they r the ones who mostly conducted them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the Warrior line SHort term Mit/Def buffs, All mobs have a Debuff Cap. u can not get a raid mob to Zero Str or any other stat, or -100% DPS/haste. it has been speculated thet the Debuff Cap is 80% on any attribute. Within that 30 Secs a Combination of Defiler,Brigand,Dirge can cap most if not all the attributes of any mob barring resists or immunes. Also,, If a Mobs opens combat with a high damage/long recast CA the short terms minimize that blow to allow  for raid to stabilize and control the encounter, cuz thats all a raid is mainly about .. Controling Mob X.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy Izbad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by YummiOger on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[Kryptonix]

<div><blockquote><hr>Quaan wrote:Regarding the "nothing" the zerker does on the raid better or worse, I would say the "nothing handles a big encounter better than a zerker" to be the one you are struggling to grasp. Nothing = aggro management tools. Lose your hate givers and the raid is screwed.Super MT group buffs give the zerker its huge dps when tanking? Dunno what your MT group looks like but ours usually has 3 healers in it, not exactly a dps combination yet zerkers can out dmg dps classes in a group built for dps....Kudos to your guild if they have got that far with a SK as MT, they took the hard road and most likely the mender/repair kit supplier thanks you for it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>If you lose your hate givers, no tank class can hold agro very well in a raid. Unless you like your dps classes walking on egg shells. If your zerker MT is so uber.... why the 3 healers? My guild does just fine with 2 in the MT group we dont use an Sk if you are wondering. Also some buffs are raid wide, so dont just count the group. </div>

[Vexorkane]

<DIV>Interesting points Yummi~</DIV> <DIV>Not being a number cruncher of any sort, it's nice to see the difference bewtween these two "balanced" offensive Fighter classes.. Leading me to concede the brutal truth :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV>I hope the community continues to analyze class specifics as you do.  Will only bring good things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>GM-</FONT> "Working as intended."  WRU??</DIV><p>Message Edited by Vexorkane on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

" If you lose your hate givers, you're screwed ".. Yeah, alright. Have you ever seen a Deathtoll raid with no scouts or enchanters? Me neither. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We have number-crunchers in my guild who parse damage output on Level 74 x4 and 75 x4 encounters, and we've parsed them with:A berserker at 7,112.A guardian at 7,344A shadowknight at 6,516.Now, don't get me wrong, that's a big gap in armor class if the cap exceeds 6,000 ( which our parses do not indicate, but that's alright. )As it stands anyway, my usual MT group consists of:DefilerTemplarBerserker/GuardianPaladinShadowknight(randomaggrotransfercla sshere)I'll refrain from being impolite, even if I am running a fever of 101 and I haven't consumed food in two days. From what <i>I've </i>seen, balance exists in that classes can be arranged in such a way to override the disparities in armor and hate control. However, because most guilds use the standardized system of 'Guardian/'Zerker MT', their MT groups look the same every time. Shadowknights, I will admit, do need a slightly different group set-up in order to tank as effectively as a Guardian or a 'Zerker, but this doesn't mean we're inferior. In the MT group, the highest I've parsed is 1,700-something, which isn't so bad, considering our relative lack of brigands and other mit. debuffers. I'm sure it could go higher, but I frankly don't attempt to do massive DPS when I'm tanking. I just focus on keeping the thing hitting me, instead of the softer folks.Our usual raid DPS comes out at around 11,000 or so -- 13,000+ when we have a good night with a lot of DPS classes online, so the difference in the make-up of the MT group doesn't amount to much if you're concerned about decreased DPS.With the temp. mit. buff which effects the entire group, the highest AC I've seen on myself is 6,917. I'm improving regularly, too. Again, not quite as high as either the berserker or the guardian, but high enough for lifetaps to cover the difference.No, we didn't wipe all that much during progression, but thanks for your concern. With around 400 plat banked, I doubt the mender fees would've been much of a concern. Donations are always appreciated, however.What I'm trying to say is, the extra hate a 'zerker generates is useful in a group, but 'zerkers ( I've grouped with plenty ) and guardians ( again, tons ) still lose aggro. as much, if not more frequently, than shadowknights. Heck, just last night, while playing my friend's 69 Inquisitor, I was grouped with a Guardian in nearly full fabled, who couldn't control more than one encounter at a time, and each pull resulted in me getting hit several times before he managed to taunt them both. He was still taking large damage spikes, even with 6,000+ MIT., and he appeared clueless. This was in the f'ing Vaults, no less. I shudder to think about what would've happened in HoF. When I hit up HoF, the Bruiser who tanked with me as the sole healer did a vastly better job, in spite of 60% avoidance and 3.5k MIT. MIT is exactly like a resistance figure. Just because you have high MIT., does not necessarily mean you will absorb that exact amount of damage on each physical attack -- I'm sure you know this.Now, on Gorenaire, when you have one person with 6.1k cold, and one with 6.8k, the one with 6.8k might take less damage on one breath weapon, and then get one-shotted on another. Sometimes, it's simply the luck of the draw.The bottom line I'm trying to make is: In a raid, with an MT group tailored for a Crusader -- and as the man said, we tank 'as effectively, just differently', which I firmly believe in from experience -- we hold aggro. quite fine, and in a group situation, our AEs and reactive heals make up for the lower levels of physical mitigation we happen to be 'blessed' with. If a berserker parses a little better, or even a lot better, I don't begrudge them. I won't stand here and listen to people tell me that shadowknights are 'bad choices for MTs' because our MT group needs to look different in order to tank as efficiently as a berserker or guardian, however. We're a different archetype, it only stands to reason we'd need different support in order to raise up those areas in which we're weaker. It doesn't mean we're inferior.<div></div>

[YummiOger]

<P>Nic, im curious as to the Dual Crusaders in MT group along with a Guardian, Who is the MT? and seeing as armerment lines and aviod buffs from the 2 crusaders do not stack and all single Heal/Wards r cross-group why place them both in G1?.. i must be missing something.</P> <P>Also Nic is correct on Mit simply being a combination of slash/crush/peirce resists coagulated into a single #. they % resisted is only a base amount, but there seems to be other random effects of actual % applied to the inc damage. 1 shot u mit ~70%, next could be 50%. however prolonged damage intake decreases with incraeses to overall mit over extended time. Epics Critical Hitting with the base 1% to all mellee attacks/CAs often tip the scales infavor of the mob cuz of the very large instant spike in damage intake, the DEVs have stated that Epic Crits will be removed at LU27 or 28 to better control the damage output and spike damage incured by the mobs. </P> <P>yummy</P> <P>ps. personal opinion but what i like for MT group is:</P> <P>guard</P> <P>dirge</P> <P>coercer</P> <P>warden</P> <P>temp</P> <P>defiler              but hey to each his own <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ..</P><p>Message Edited by YummiOger on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 PM</span>

[Vexorkane]

<DIV>My guild prefers the same set up YummiOger.  If for some reason our Coercer isn't present, we throw me in there for the extra sta/str buff and mitigation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: 1337 Infoz</DIV><p>Message Edited by Vexorkane on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:19 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

The group set-up I listed was when I'm functioning as the MT. The guard or berserker is there for temporary group mit. buff, defense skill increase, etc. The paladin is there to stack mit. transfer on me. Sorry for the confusion.<div></div>

[Ne]

<P>2 crusaders (one tanking, one buffing MT) + 1 warrior (buffing MT) sounds like wasting a MT spot to me. If you instead have 1 warrior tanking (buffing himself) and 1 crusader buffing (buffing MT) you free up one spot for more aggro...  In that comparison the pal only brings his group buff compared to the full buffs of a scout/priest/chanter...   My 2cc.  (most of the time we have 0 crusaders in MT group, our warriors do fine without that extra mit and we bring little else compared to other classes...)</P><p>Message Edited by Nedo on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:22 AM</span>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<DIV>Nicholai:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am never switching to another tank from SK, but you are incorrect in a few of your statements. SKs have the worst snap agro of any tank. We have the lowest damage of any tank (well maybe not pally, but they make up for it with amends which gives them crazy agro).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our zerker constantly pulled agro from our guardian MT in raids (MT has dirge, assasin and/or coercer in group for hate gains too), while as an SK, I have hit rescue (adept 3) and HT (M1) back to back testing it out and I can't pull a mob off the MT where the zerkers can do it on auto attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also hate the mindset that SKs can't raid tank, its just BS, THOUGH, we do get seriously jipped in avoidance, we are significantly lower than the other tanks even with maximum avoidance related buffs.</DIV>

[Kaleyen]

<div></div><div></div>Paladins are in the same boat, feels as if SOE forgot about us Crusaders.**Edit**I'm thinking we need some cross class coraliation(sp?) here to get some love passed onto the Crusaders.  I was a 65 SK in EQ1 and decided to cross the river so to speak here in EQ2, I've raid tanked in the MT group (when the MT falls) so my amends are on the druid (they don't generate much for agro) and I couldn't keep agro to save my life with all my taunts at Adept III to Master II so those SK's who raid tank and keep agro, kudos...seriously that's an accomplishment.What changes are needed?  I can't put my thumb on that one just yet, I recently hit 70 and started to raid some T7 content but I'm sick of having warriors being able to out tank me (which I feel they should) but at the same time out DPS'ing me when they're in a def stance and I'm in offensive using a 2 hander.  <div></div><p>And you can't really say that Pallys have Ward + Heals cause that's like someone telling you guys that you have necro based spells thus you should be doing a lot more damage.  It just doesn't work that way.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 PM</span>

[Scyros]

<DIV>Well I'm no raid SK.  My guild have 3 well geared MT's so my SK alt is just for fun.  So I can't say how well they do as a raid tank.  Although I'm sure if equally equiped and skilled they would do just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I do know that SK's do better than Zerker, our reactive taunt is way better.  When a zerker gets hit there's has a 50% chance to proc 350 or so hate.  Nice right, but SK procs on every hit. Every time I get hit I proc 90 or so hate plus a 40-50 point dmg shield.  Thats 140 hate every time I get hit.  And if I want that spell to generate more hate, I just raise my INT.  You know what zerkers do to raise the hate on their reactive?  Nothing, only thing they can do is upgrade it to master.  Thats it.  In fact many SK abilities as we know rely on INT.  I see alot of SK's that feel that is a penalty, but I look at it was a bonus.  We all know that a raid buffed and geared tank will be easily STR capped.  So they are producing as much hate as they can.  SK's on the other hand can always raise the hate gain by adding more INT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then of course the argument could be that we are not producing the same dmg unless we do cap both STR and INT.  Well not having raided with my SK idk the answer there.  But I do know that if I keep and even focus on my Str and Int, combined with as many masters as I can afford, that I never lose agro to anything other than warlocks for the most part.  But I only have 1 true AE masters thus far.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have to remember that 500 dmg is the same as 500 hate.  So if you think SK's need more hate gain then try and look at how you are lining up your spell casting.  It will change depending on the classes you have in grp.  With big nukers you need to get your hate up fast, so relying on your AE DoT's first off is prob not a good idea.  Try leading off with Tapviens after your grp taunt, followed by the AE from bloodlines(forget the name).  That way you have a good up front load to let your DoT's work on.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing I would say we do need, is a look at power cost.  I think we do require a lot more power per fight than other tanks.  Other than that i tihnk SK's are fine.  And well suited for any roll really.</DIV>

[Quaan]

<blockquote><hr>Scyros wrote:<DIV> So I can't say how well they do as a raid tank.<DIV><DIV> The only thing I would say we do need, is a look at power cost. I think we do require a lot more power per fight than other tanks. Other than that i tihnk SK's are fine.  And well suited for any roll really.</DIV><hr></blockquote>So you dont know how well they do as a raid tank but also say they are well suited to any role? 0.oQuite a few assumptions and misinformation in there sorry. Alot of people play their SKs full time as opposed to their "alt for fun", I'm sure they know how to line spells up. Perhaps you should read the previous posts to find out why the concerns have been raised.

[Nicholai24]

<DIV>Everything he said was perfectly valid. I have especially nice results with a Fury in my group, and an intel. potion quaffed. 400ish intel, and 500+ str and stamina while in defensive is fine by me. I'm done with the thread, honestly. I don't have to write essays and waste my life trying to explain how easy it is I find it to function as a raid MT in any of the hardest zones currently in the game. I do it, and that's enough for me. Crunch numbers if you want. A lot of it <EM>is </EM>based on whether or not you know what you're doing..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And just because someone plays a character to 70 as a main, does not mean they know a damned thing about raiding <EM>or </EM>grouping. I've seen Guardians at 70 with chain armor and T5 plate. Plain, stupid, stubborn determination can take a mediocre player to 70. All tanks will lose aggro. from time to time, no matter how well-equipped or well-played they are. We have poor snap aggro.?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll just disagree, I guess. I'm fine with mine. Later, guys. Looking forward to LU27a.</DIV>

[G1Joe]

<DIV>Its amazing to me the disparity in opinion on SK's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to say I lean towards the negative (for want of a better term) end of the spectrum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no doubt that unless I go all out and am working with a group that clearly understands I am an SK that I will absolutely not be able to keep aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I lose concentration for a moment and stop mashing buttons to generate dps or if I try to preserve mana which for me is a real problem as an SK particularly when soloing. I will lose aggro, to get it back I have to use rescue HT or both. If within the group anyone actually tries to do any dps they will take aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That goes for all dps T1 T2 and T3 classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not in the greatest gear but groups I have been in where the SK is geared up things still arent that great. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Multiple mobs do help a lot however I will be out of mana very quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am still trying to work out whether it is because I am just a crap player rather than these being SK limitations, and maybe full fable plus all mastered out would make gameplay so completely different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway since the OP has played both classes to 70 and I presume they are geared somewhat similarly then I have to lean towards agreeing with him especially as it mirrors more my own experience in game.  Zerkers geared up out DPS an SK all day long I dont care what happens with Gazers im talking about all aspects of the game.</DIV>

[Ne]

<P> </P> <P></P> <P>Conjuror 1305.32 </P> <P>Zerker 982.76</P> <P>Brigand 939.26</P> <P>SK 932.45</P> <P>Ranger 859.72</P> <P>Wizard 811.84</P> <P>Wizard 802.82</P> <P>Dirge 710.74</P> <P>Swashie 628.36</P> <P>Monk 532.77</P> <P>SK 510.14</P> <P>Paladin 441.66 </P> <P>This is a merged raid-wide parse from out Lyceum raid yesterday, just to show how much group matters for our dps. Yesterday I was in our MT group with 100% dps mod and about 50% haste and could cream out an <EM>average</EM> of 932 dps (top encounter 1280). Our 2nd SK was in a much worse dps-group and got an average of 510 dps. Our equipment/xperience are not significantly different. The tanking zerker dealt 983 dps tanking. If the group is right we can deal really nice dps... but so could any melee class in that spot, an assassin/brigand in that spot would still have done much better. So would a non-tanking zerker.</P> <P>I'll sum up and sign out here as well. Imo SKs take extra effort to hold aggro, but it works. However, we are not designed to MT in the best guilds, because we don't do it best and the best guilds will want the best MT. A zerker/guardian tank keeps aggro with much less effort (our zerker more or less holds aggro on his auto-attack, if he fires a taunt and a CA every now and then he's totally safe on a single mob that does not memwipe). They also have more tools for <EM>regaining true ae aggro</EM>, our only means are out damage spells which are relatively slow cast and/or builds up damage slowly with dot damage. We are quite ok for keeping aggro once we got it, and for single targets we can regain lost aggro reasonably good. In addition to the ae aggro issue, the main problem with a crusader MT is that it makes the MT group much less optimal/flexible. In order to get the tanking/aggro ability up to par with a warrior you need to use one more buff-spot in the group (for example a Fury to get Int up to a level where your spells land sufficiently in defense mode).</P> <P>Anyways, I never though I would play an optimal class to be MT so that's all fine. The only problem is the relative raid balance between the classes.</P> <P>SK vs. Paladin - fine, we do some more dps and they have amends.</P> <P>SK vs. Guardian - fine, we do more dps and they tank better in a raid.</P> <P>SK vs. Zerkers - not fine, they do everything better in a raid.</P> <P>SK vs. brawlers - quite ok I think... we tank more reliably and they do some more dps... not that much, but a little.</P> <P>That about sums it up. Imo, we are definately not broken, but we have to accept we are not optimal for tanking, and we are not better dps than zerkers. The new Death March + Despoil makes up to 2 SK's / raid useful atleast as 24/7 mit-debuffers, offtanks and dps. We can MT, but noone can ever get me to think we are the best choice for that.</P><p>Message Edited by Nedo on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 AM</span>

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

<DIV>A few people mentioned power issues with SKs... we have the most mana of any tank. Maybe I am good at mana conservation but I only run oop on crazy long fights. It was an issue when I was level 25, I remember everything being so hard to solo because I was always using up power in 3 seconds (but that was before all the tanks HP and PP were modified). I am in nearly a full set of the best raid gear you can get in the game (I have all relic but helm and comparable backup) but even before I had relic I was usually ok on power). In raids my int and str are almost always maxed. Look zehl up on eq2players to see my gear (possibly minus relic chest if I'm wearing a dress).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With our power tap, often a dirge or coercer in group (that really helps), manastone handy, and heart/shard depending if conj/necro is in raid I dont have power problems. I don't even use FT gear most of the time, sometimes I will equip the leggsicon if low on power.</DIV>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

i was in a group a couple weeks ago with a zerk 3 lvls below me.  i gave up on trying to tank and switched to off stance.  i had to really push my taunting and dps in an effort to maintain aggro over him and still about 70% of the time he would eventually pull mobs off me.  i never saw him taunt once. he was in off stance and said he wasnt even using CA.  pure auto attack generated enough aggro to pull mobs off me while i was trying very hard to keep aggro.  i play an sk because i love the sk but watching a zerk just makes me sad and i have to wonder why bother.  i feel a good number of people continue to play the sk and paladin because they love them even knowing they arent up to snuff.

[Nicholai24]

<DIV>I play my shadowknight because I'm happy with my character's performance in groups and raids, I out-tank any other tank class I've grouped with in instances, and I see nothing but improvements coming our way in the near future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I keep getting sucked into this thread. I agree with the above poster that berserkers tank well with less effort. I'm just saying I tank the same things with ease, too.. to the point where the difference isn't all that noticeable. As for Tarkin..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get yourself better equipment, more AA's, and all your upgraded spells. Shadowknights take time to mature. Don't give up hope.</DIV>

[DUNN]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nedo wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P></P> <P>Conjuror 1305.32 </P> <P>Zerker 982.76</P> <P>Brigand 939.26</P> <P>SK 932.45</P> <P>Ranger 859.72</P> <P>Wizard 811.84</P> <P>Wizard 802.82</P> <P>Dirge 710.74</P> <P>Swashie 628.36</P> <P>Monk 532.77</P> <P>SK 510.14</P> <P>Paladin 441.66 </P> <P>This is a merged raid-wide parse from out Lyceum raid yesterday, just to show how much group matters for our dps. Yesterday I was in our MT group with 100% dps mod and about 50% haste and could cream out an <EM>average</EM> of 932 dps (top encounter 1280). Our 2nd SK was in a much worse dps-group and got an average of 510 dps. Our equipment/xperience are not significantly different. The tanking zerker dealt 983 dps tanking. If the group is right we can deal really nice dps... but so could any melee class in that spot, an assassin/brigand in that spot would still have done much better. So would a non-tanking zerker.</P> <P>I'll sum up and sign out here as well. Imo SKs take extra effort to hold aggro, but it works. However, we are not designed to MT in the best guilds, because we don't do it best and the best guilds will want the best MT. A zerker/guardian tank keeps aggro with much less effort (our zerker more or less holds aggro on his auto-attack, if he fires a taunt and a CA every now and then he's totally safe on a single mob that does not memwipe). They also have more tools for <EM>regaining true ae aggro</EM>, our only means are out damage spells which are relatively slow cast and/or builds up damage slowly with dot damage. We are quite ok for keeping aggro once we got it, and for single targets we can regain lost aggro reasonably good. In addition to the ae aggro issue, the main problem with a crusader MT is that it makes the MT group much less optimal/flexible. In order to get the tanking/aggro ability up to par with a warrior you need to use one more buff-spot in the group (for example a Fury to get Int up to a level where your spells land sufficiently in defense mode).</P> <P>Anyways, I never though I would play an optimal class to be MT so that's all fine. The only problem is the relative raid balance between the classes.</P> <P>SK vs. Paladin - fine, we do some more dps and they have amends.</P> <P>SK vs. Guardian - fine, we do more dps and they tank better in a raid.</P> <P>SK vs. Zerkers - not fine, they do everything better in a raid.</P> <P>SK vs. brawlers - quite ok I think... we tank more reliably and they do some more dps... not that much, but a little.</P> <P>That about sums it up. Imo, we are definately not broken, but we have to accept we are not optimal for tanking, and we are not better dps than zerkers. The new Death March + Despoil makes up to 2 SK's / raid useful atleast as 24/7 mit-debuffers, offtanks and dps. We can MT, but noone can ever get me to think we are the best choice for that.</P> <P>Message Edited by Nedo on <SPAN class=date_text>08-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Looks like you are right were most Sk's are at in dps.  It helped that you were in the MT group, so it inflated your dps a bit.  However your Mages, swashie and monks are not; I would guess that is why you are so high up that parse.  900 probably wouldn't make it into the top 7 in most raids where 16-20k is the raids overall parse.<p>Message Edited by DUNN on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

<DIV>im not saying im unhappy with my sk's performance but when compared to other, such as the zerk, it gets frustrating.  zerk has never been my style and i wont play the flavor of the month or the most powerful class for the sake of being one of the most powerful.  i am lacking in AA thats for sure.  im just not one of those guys who tries to max his AA xp.  i put forth effort just not like some.  i dont stop my xp in an effort to have alot of AA at low levels.  my gear and spells do need to be upgraded.  i try to get the important ones first like taunts and then go from there but im a casual player on a pvp server.  i dont have alot of money to work with most times.</DIV>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Dunn: Correct in DPS placement in high end guilds. 40-50% of a well built high end guild produces 1K+ dps parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scyros: Zerker passive taunt is a ENCOUNTER wide hate proc not single target such as SK. </DIV> <DIV>4mob-encounter x 350hate = 1500 encounter hate per proc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully the Deathmarch + Disruption on off stance will up our raid desirability. i can defiantly see SKs as the tanks in a mage heavy group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yummy</DIV>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>afterthought... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some1 stated earlyer about the un-needed crusader in the MT group. Yes, Crusader in MT group is often being skipped in upper end guilds due to the proliferation of +crush/slash/peirce Mit items, and the high Mit of the T7 Plate armor. when combined with the relitivily low Mitigation soft-cap, the +mit of the crusader is nullified, often replaced with +hate for MT. The Crudaser in MT group is usually utilized by a MT that is not fully fabled in T7.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yummy</DIV>

[whitec]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scyros: Zerker passive taunt is a ENCOUNTER wide hate proc not single target such as SK. </DIV> <DIV>4mob-encounter x 350hate = 1500 encounter hate per proc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a question of my understanding, but when a SK taps and/or wards himself, say, for 350 from a lifetap then isn't that a 350 point taunt against, not only the mobs in the current encounter, but all the mobs who have engaged with him?  Tap veins against 8 mobs, 8000 damage, 2800 heal x 8 for taunt effect = 30,400 worth of hate in 2 seconds?</P> <P> </P> <P>Doesn't healing count for hate?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Bruener]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whitecus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scyros: Zerker passive taunt is a ENCOUNTER wide hate proc not single target such as SK. </DIV> <DIV>4mob-encounter x 350hate = 1500 encounter hate per proc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a question of my understanding, but when a SK taps and/or wards himself, say, for 350 from a lifetap then isn't that a 350 point taunt against, not only the mobs in the current encounter, but all the mobs who have engaged with him?  Tap veins against 8 mobs, 8000 damage, 2800 heal x 8 for taunt effect = 30,400 worth of hate in 2 seconds?</P> <P> </P> <P>Doesn't healing count for hate?</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is where things are screwy imo.  I really don't think our damage is giving us the hate that it should.  I mean the fact that HT sometimes will not even pull a mob even though it is doing 7-12k damage...if what was stated is true that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate gain than that should be a huge amount of hate.  Also Tap Veins should be our biggest AE agro control doing around 1k to the surrounding targets..in addition to the heal it gives it should be like a magnet to all the mobs around if used right away.  Something just doesn't add up.  Our DPS comes from multiple targets and when I have all my DoT's flowing along with using Tap Veins and given the fact that Caress procs when mobs hit me it should be a lot easier to hold agro than it.</P>

[Giral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bruener wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whitecus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scyros: Zerker passive taunt is a ENCOUNTER wide hate proc not single target such as SK. </DIV> <DIV>4mob-encounter x 350hate = 1500 encounter hate per proc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a question of my understanding, but when a SK taps and/or wards himself, say, for 350 from a lifetap then isn't that a 350 point taunt against, not only the mobs in the current encounter, but all the mobs who have engaged with him?  Tap veins against 8 mobs, 8000 damage, 2800 heal x 8 for taunt effect = 30,400 worth of hate in 2 seconds?</P> <P> </P> <P>Doesn't healing count for hate?</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is where things are screwy imo.  I really don't think our damage is giving us the hate that it should.  I mean the fact that HT sometimes will not even pull a mob even though it is doing 7-12k damage...if what was stated is true that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate gain than that should be a huge amount of hate.  Also Tap Veins should be our biggest AE agro control doing around 1k to the surrounding targets..in addition to the heal it gives it should be like a magnet to all the mobs around if used right away.  Something just doesn't add up.  Our DPS comes from multiple targets and when I have all my DoT's flowing along with using Tap Veins and given the fact that Caress procs when mobs hit me it should be a lot easier to hold agro than it is..</P> <P>.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>i also feel there is just something wrong with our hate , a few thing's i've noticed</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>if i cast my re-active on the Raid MT , i have had mob's insta Agro me on the PULL , and after it happened 3 times in a row one night the Raid MT asked me to not cast it on pull's,   This is on a RAid Buffed MT with all the Agro buff's on him , and With all the other Healer's Re-actives cast for Named pull's , Why DO i Suddenly Get all this Agro ??    </P> <P>  But if im in a Group , here is an example from just yesterday , i was in a group with a Mysttic , level 62 i think , i'm lvl 70 SK , i cast my Reactive go to Body pull a Mob and BLAM agro goes Straight to the Mystic,  of course the Tuants didn't do JAck, had to Rescue to regain agro , </P> <P>But the question is How come my Re-active On a Raid buffed MT Gain's me so much agro ? more agro then a Templar's re-active ?  and when i cast it on myself it gives me apparently NO agro ? </P> <P>another thing when i use to Cast my reactive on my Skelly Pet (befor they Nerfed that) , i couldn't get Agro off my pet ? tuant, Ae tuant amd Rescue= NOPE didnt regain agro and pet died with Agro ? ? </P> <P>another thing is Rescue and HT , they fail alot in regaining agro , Rescue is adept 3 and HT is Mastered ,  Feign Death (that i have never upgraded from Adept 1 ) work's 99 % of the time for me , and if it wasn't for FD i would have alot more deaths becuase of Rescue and HT failing .   Rescue and HT combined should pretty much 99.9% of the time mean i regain agro , i mean that is an Increadible amount of HATE , but it works 70 % of the time ? </P> <P> </P> <P>and also  SK's are Very hard to Keep standing , i have a lvl 56 inquisitor,  i always love to group with SK"s (humm i wonderwhy : )   I  just can't keep thier Health up ? fighting same mob's with a Guard Vs SK , the Sk's health just drop's like a sinking ship, i have to work very hard to keep them up ,   they just don't absorb the damage ,  with a guardian Tanking the Same mob's i can cast, my re-actives on pull(not get agro 98 % of the time)  then debuff's, throw out some dp's , and most times put my Group Dp's buff on (it stiffles me and i cant cast Anything) becuase the guardian will take the hit's with the re-actives and keep on going like the energizer bunny , and the Guardian usually has More aviodance then the SK , so the Re-actives are actually firing Less then they would with an SK ,    so what gives?    an SK with thier own re-actives and Life tap's in equal gear to a Guardian + my re-actives should pretty much never drop to half health most times they are Zig -Zagging from full to near Death :  ( ,    for some reason i have to constantly re-active(Cannot cast re-actives on Pull i will get agro 90 % of the time) , and Straight heal them thru fight's , and rarely get to debuff, or do much anything else ,  yeah granted they aren't FULL , fabled , mastered,  lvl 70 etc,,,,  but still the differance is Very noticable . </P> <P> </P> <P>i don't know , but something is just screwy with SK's Agro, Dp's-Agro and Mitigation IMO , taking one of the other poster's in this thread's point's   " a Zerker 3 level's lower then him in Auto attack Is stealing Agro , even tho he is Working like a Dog for agro, tuanting Dp'sing , and going OOP doing it and still losing agro ? IMO he Out dp'sed the Zerker, Out Agro'd the Zerker , and Still is losing Agro to the zerker WHY ? it shouldn't be possible , a Tank Working for Agro Should rarely lose it, especially not to someone Not even trying to steal it ,  yes agro is a Group function , but when a MT is doing everything he can to Grab.Hold, and Maintian agro and all that fail's to auto attack it's just absurd and something is wrong , </P> <P>Sk's can do it all , Sk's aren't broken, but 3 of thier core functon's " IMO " have issue's Agro,Mitigation, Dp's </P> <P>IMO , if Zerker's have better Agro, then we should be the Most Dp'sing PLATE Tank, since our Agro is MUCH  Less then a Zerker's our Dp's should put them in the Dog house ,  it Could be our one defining feature  </P> <P>Zerker's have Great dp's for a Plate tank  + Great Agro  </P> <P>Paladin's have Realy Good Agro + Pretty good dp's for a Plate </P> <P>Guardian's have Lowest Dp's of Plate's + Great Agro </P> <P>Sk's have Pretty good Dp's + ok Agro  </P> <P> </P> <P>so i feel that SK should be Best Dp's of Plate's   +  Good agro  that would = Balance IMO </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Margen]

<P>Giralus if I am understanding what you are saying about blessing getting aggro, it sound like you are casting WHILE the MT is pulling.  If I didn't misunderstand you, thats why you are getting aggro.  </P> <P>If you cast it right before he pulls or right after he establishes aggro then you shouldn't have a problem, in fact it actually helps a bit on his aggro.  Problem is if you buff while he is running back the mob takes the hate from the buff before he can taunt, if you buff before the encounter starts then there is no hate from the actual casting of the buff.</P> <P>If I misunderstood what saud you are doing, sorry about that, but casting the buff before the encounter or after the MT has hate Ive never had any problem with aggro, but I've a couple times cast it when the pull was happening (lag, MT pulling earlier then he said, or me just not paying attention).</P> <P> </P>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>Margen wrote:<P>... but I've a couple times cast it when the pull was happening (lag, MT pulling earlier then he said, or me just not paying attention).</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>same here, i do so at least 90% of all encounters, bonus hate and health for the MT, and like you say i never get agro unless i'm late due to slacking or a ninja pull <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />as far as the mystic getting agro... their group buffs having wards just makes them nightmare for agro on body pulls and adds, especialy if they have a group ward up... they just get the shaft for agro really <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[gnarkill]

<div></div>I hate naysayers...well I have been our guilds MT since we lost our guard and I have tanked every mob in this game except MO and Chel'drak successfully (yes even Tarinax) with a coercer and dirge hate buff plus hurricanus taunt gear in my group, I lose agro maybe once or twice a week (If I do lose agro i just FD that person thru the mob and it comes right back)...I even hit 1K+ dps MANY times tonight in defensive stance with a 1h and shield...we can do it just as good as any plate tank class (better in some parts) ignore some of these people...<div></div><p>Message Edited by ta2demon on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 PM</span>

[gnarkill]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Xanoth wrote:no one ever seems to mention the lack of INT on tanking gear as being a problem. bad itemisation IMO is our biggest enemy right now.most tanks dont have agro problems because for them getting thier str capped is as assured as the fact that tehy are wearing armour. for us its almost impossible to cap your int in your defencive stance... its useful that our defencive stance gives wisdom though, i feel its put to great use when its over 700 and my int is about 250...<hr></blockquote>I dunno...i have 300int 450wis and over 5k mit self buffed in def stance with my gear AND all my resists are at 5k-7k (self buffed)....the gear is out there with INT on it you just gotta find it =) (my STR blows but who cares 80% of our attacks are spells) and I only have adept 3 pox and infernal</div><p>Message Edited by ta2demon on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 PM</span>

[Xanoth]

perhaps you can share some wisdom with me then inhttp://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=23539i can self buff mit to 5248, but definatly not with 300 int.but my gripe about 700 wisdom was when i was in a group with a warden with their power buff on me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> didn't have a mage or a fury in the group, so int was gear only in defencive stace.

[YummiOger]

<DIV>some1 asked about hate off heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mooreguard has stated that 1 heal < 1 hate to help with healer aggro several patches ago ... aggro parsing puts it close to 1 heal = .6 hate and it is assumed to register on all aggroed Mobs' lists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>let it be known that the SK Ward Tap does add hate to the one with the ward on them.</DIV> <DIV>yummy</DIV>

[Tarkin-Wretch]

i find it highly unlikely that 1 dmg = 1 hate or even 1 heal = .6 hate at least for the SK.  that may have been what was stated and it may even be true but i dont think it works that way on the SK, intended or not.

[gnarkill]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Xanoth wrote:perhaps you can share some wisdom with me then inhttp://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=23539i can self buff mit to 5248, but definatly not with 300 int.but my gripe about 700 wisdom was when i was in a group with a warden with their power buff on me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> didn't have a mage or a fury in the group, so int was gear only in defencive stace.<hr></blockquote>I was looking at your gear and I think why i can get my INT so high is becuase of my jewelry and shield....<img src="http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8009/untitledcc4.jpg">And yea I have Blackcoat legs and Hurricanus bracers etc....Edit: Oh and my weapons Silver Sword of Rage and Cudgel of Pain both have good INT</div><p>Message Edited by ta2demon on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[Xanoth]

stiupid thin is on my part, i took the claymore neck to get server descovery on it. my wife got the wrist for disco... wish i'd just left the neck for someone else to be honest.and yeh i really want that hurri shield for the int <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ust need to save up more DKP to out big mages and priest on jewelry, problem is its so scarece and so many people want it that once piece would clean me out. but yes its definatly my weakness =/

[gnarkill]

<div></div>Try to pick up the Censer of Mystic Rites for a symbol as well..it rules =)<img src="http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9251/untitled1fx5.jpg"><div></div><p>Message Edited by ta2demon on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:42 PM</span>

[Scyros]

<P>Ok maybe I should have clarified, I dont raid with my SK but I have raided pretty but everything but DT with my necro or my defiler.  I was also the raid leader for these raids.  So I think I have a pretty good grasp of what an MT needs.  MIT, HP, Resist and above all to know what they are doing.  </P> <P> </P> <P>I normally 2box my SK with my Necro.  The 2 can easily clear several instances with out a healer.  So the idea that we some how take more dmg is not true.  Also with this 2box setup I end up fighting lots of grps of mobs.  When I first started doing this a while back my pet would pull agro in no time.  Ad3 mage pet at the time.  I now have master 1 mage pet and I never lose agro period.  I have the master 2 grp taunt and master 1 dmg shield taunt, but single target is still ad3.   Before I upgraded all my spells yeah it was rough but once i got ad3's I never lose agro.   In grps I'll lose agro once in a while to warlocks and Wizzy's.  But who cares, the mobs will be dead in 2sec anyway.  </P> <P> </P> <P>My SK isn't gear with anything that doesn't drop in instances.  His Mit is far from capped.  I should also mention that he is my 4th lvl 70 adv class so I think alt has a slightly different meaning for me than it does to otheres.  I've tanked every instace out there with NP and like I said in my post, the only issue I do see is we consure more pow in a given fight than other tanks.  But that also depends on the person playing I guess.  I tend to go over the top right away to keep from losing agro. I'm sure I could scale back some lol.  </P> <P> </P> <P>That Censer is awesome for SK.  Thats another point, gear selection.  I never bother trying to get Wis or Int on my items.  If I can't get Str or Mit with it then I don't wear it. You get twice the pow from Str than you do from Wis.  And While Int is nice for more DPS it's not worth sacrificing Mit or Str.  But I've made my SK to tank from day one so I've never thought in terms of DPS mode.  If an items doesn't help me tank better than it's not for me</P> <P> </P> <P>Just my op</P><p>Message Edited by Scyros on <span class=date_text>08-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>