An improvement to despoil i'd love to see

[Hicar]

Despoil is our encounter wide mitigation debuff. It's a very nice spell by itself, but everyone and their mother can debuff mitigation. Brigands, swash, clerics, dirges, dolls etc. And consensus is that there is a cap on how much mitigation you can debuff.If you look at what the purpose of this spell is, it's to increase the damage of melee hitters. I'd like to see that spell change to do basically the same thing in a different manner. The idea is to change it into an impairment that you can place on the mob or mob encounter which makes any melee attack on them  deal additionnal damage.It's not the same mechanism. For instance, it woudl make it weaker in small formation with big hitters, as basically a mitigation debuff is a % increase of efficiency, whereas additionnal damage would be a fix number depending only on either str or int of the hitter.It's basically adding a proc to every melees in the raid. What is nice is that it would stack with w/e else your raid has to offer w/o hitting a cap. It doesn't make you want to bring suddenly 5 sks in every raids cause that would not stack between sks, unless ofc they make it a very potent proc with short length and long timer. It keeps the same spirit of efficiency scaling with the size of the group. And it's unique. I don't think other classes have it. Templars have a healing version of this. Warlocks have a casting version of this. Melee version is missing i think. Or even better, make it work on any type of damage so the casters aren't once again left behind on the effects scalability.Thought i'd submit the idea in hope people like it and a dev read it.<div></div>

[Ultimatum]

Warriors have an AA called Double Attack that does essentially what you just described.  Also, SK's have a similar AA called Trample.  As for a cap to debuffing mitigation, I don't believe one exists.  From what I've read, all mobs are considered to have 0 mitigation, and you debuff them from that point.  Either way a group wide double attack buff does not fit in with a SK in my opinion, and the debuff is just fine the way it is.  A group double attack buff would be far more in like with a Berserker.  <div></div>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<blockquote>Thought i'd submit the idea in hope people like it and a dev read it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>/watches tumbleweed roll by..devs left this forsaken town long ago freind, ye best be movin on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Arieneth]

<P>as far as i know, SK's are the only class with a GROUP mit debuff, but i may be wrong. the Brigand skill Debilitate is single target. I don't think Dirges debuff mit, they debuff magical resists. a group mit debuff has a lot of advantages, especially when grouping with melee classes like assassins or warriors. melee ae's (even doom judgement for SK's) will do more dmg to a group that has been group mit debuffed. also, when the first target dies, Despoil is still on the remaining mobs in the encounter.</P> <P>the additional damage you mentioned may have a fixed value, but that add'l dmg can be mitigated and do less dmg overall. whereas if you debuff the mitigation, that mob/encounter is open to a large increase in dmg taken for 1 minute 12 seconds. if you have ever run Halls of Fate, you will know that stripping mitigation is FAR more benefitial than a double attack proc.</P> <P>furthermore, giving every melee in group a 100% chance to double attack is overpowered.</P>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>Venymous wrote:<P>as far as i know, SK's are the only class with a GROUP mit debuff<hr></blockquote>while true, is there any real need to debuff physical mitigation on a whole encounter?i like the reactive proc idea, and it does kinda fit if it does disease damage, like an infected wound or something... not my thing but it fits with what a SK is, and i dont really care what the concept is, jsut how it plays, and that to me sounds more fun and friedly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Hicar]

Well, double attack is something very specific. As is tramble. Auto attack is a chance to swing twice at the same moment. Warriors and rogues get that. Tramble is a chance to have your auto attack considered an ae at each swing. Sk get that in agi line AA, zerk and swash get that has a skill. Note that when it procs it's as if you auto attacked on each mobs taken in the ae, with all the chances it involves in term of procs etc.What i propose is a proc. Would be like the procs wizard, conjurors, assassins, dirges, crusaders, shamen (i think) can give, i e : each time you auto attack or use a CA, you have a chance (between 1 and 100 %) to deal additionnal damage of a different type, not related to the attack you used (meaning, the proc is the same weither you use a small or big attack). The difference is that instead of buffing someone in your group with the proc, we debuff the mob, giving the entire raid the possibility to proc it. Same kind of scalability in term of group size than a debuff. It would  be powerfull, but in the same kind of power that despoil already is. Despoil efficiency goes increasing with the number of people hitting the mob.Weither or not there is a cap to mitigation debuff i can't say for sure. I don't remember seeing a dev post on this. Some people assume there is one. I didn't test it as it's hard to test. You can't assume that all existing mitigation will stack and used to full efficiency for the sole reason that they all exist, cause that wouldn't prove anything. Just take death march giving 119 % dps boost when there is a cap at 100.I agree despoil is very usefull as it is, especially in group and small group configurations. Trust me i have a lot of experience in solo, small grouping, full grouping and raiding. But it's usefullness drastically diminish when more mitigation debuffer join your group / raid. Just for the sake of knowledge, dirge's mitigation debuff is encounter wide, and is toggleable, which means they can maintain it for as long as they want minus recast time + cast time, at the cost of power over time.What i propose is to change despoil into something that would be as usefull as despoil is when no other mitigation debuffer is around, at the differences involved by the different kind of mechanics. The mechanic i propose would be unique, scalable in power with the number of hitters, identifiyable in parses (which is nice to show what we bring). Finely tuned it wouldn't change our soloability or groupability, and would increase a lot our raidability.<div></div>

[Arieneth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Hicarse wrote:<BR>Well, double attack is something very specific. As is tramble. Auto attack is a chance to swing twice at the same moment. Warriors and rogues get that. Tramble is a chance to have your auto attack considered an ae at each swing. Sk get that in agi line AA, zerk and swash get that has a skill. Note that when it procs it's as if you auto attacked on each mobs taken in the ae, with all the chances it involves in term of procs etc.<BR><BR>What i propose is a proc. Would be like the procs wizard, conjurors, assassins, dirges, crusaders, shamen (i think) can give, i e : each time you auto attack or use a CA, you have a chance (between 1 and 100 %) to deal additionnal damage of a different type, not related to the attack you used (meaning, the proc is the same weither you use a small or big attack). The difference is that instead of buffing someone in your group with the proc, we debuff the mob, giving the entire raid the possibility to proc it. Same kind of scalability in term of group size than a debuff. It would  be powerfull, but in the same kind of power that despoil already is. Despoil efficiency goes increasing with the number of people hitting the mob.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>still, this will only effect people that actually go in range to auto attack. healers and casters always (should) stay back from combat as ae's/ripostes can be nasty. also, caster's/crusader's/bard's do not use ca's, they use spells which makes your proc idea as useless(to caster's, half as useful for the others) to them as Despoil is. as you said Despoil's efficiency goes up with the humber of people hitting it, it's the exact same for the proc.</FONT><BR><BR>Weither or not there is a cap to mitigation debuff i can't say for sure. I don't remember seeing a dev post on this. Some people assume there is one. I didn't test it as it's hard to test. You can't assume that all existing mitigation will stack and used to full efficiency for the sole reason that they all exist, cause that wouldn't prove anything. Just take death march giving 119 % dps boost when there is a cap at 100.<BR><BR>I agree despoil is very usefull as it is, especially in group and small group configurations. Trust me i have a lot of experience in solo, small grouping, full grouping and raiding. But it's usefullness drastically diminish when more mitigation debuffer join your group / raid. Just for the sake of knowledge, dirge's mitigation debuff is encounter wide, and is toggleable, which means they can maintain it for as long as they want minus recast time + cast time, at the cost of power over time.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>what dirge spell reduces physical mitigation?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR>What i propose is to change despoil into something that would be as usefull as despoil is when no other mitigation debuffer is around, at the differences involved by the different kind of mechanics. The mechanic i propose would be unique, scalable in power with the number of hitters, identifiyable in parses (which is nice to show what we bring). Finely tuned it wouldn't change our soloability or groupability, and would increase a lot our raidability.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i would much rather have melee classes deal a noticeably larger amount of damage because of a mit debuff than have a <EM>chance</EM> to proc a fixed amount. that to me is much more useful. and as i said, when the first mob dies, the rest of the encounter is still Despoiled.

[Ultimatum]

<div></div>I have to admit...I like the <i>idea</i> of what you propose, but I don't really like the thought of it replacing Despoil.  You are talking about replacing a debuff spell with a raid-wide proc.  Despoil, as it stands, is an essential part of soloing and grouping moreso than it is for raiding for the obvious reason that you have less people available to stack debuffs and lower the overall usefullness of the spell.  That said, I wouldn't like the idea of losing such an important debuff for our class.I DO, however, like the idea of a group wide proc adding to or completely replacing the garbage that is Death March.  It would fit in a lot better with that spell as an Ancient Teaching than the current spell does, and it would give the spell a use to be put back on my hotbar.  I actually suggested something similar to what you said, only it was a hostile spell proc rather than a melee proc simply because spell casting fits in much better with an SK than melee.  Unfortunately I don't think SOE will ever listen to any such ideas.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>08-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[Hicar]

<P>Well, you get the idea, which is nice. I like a lot the idea of a proc impairment, with a high probability between 25 and 100 %. I think despoil is the good place holder cause it kinda achieve the same purpose : increase efficiency of melee attacks. Death march is a huge agro tool when tanking groups, i'd rather not touch it. Just make it trigger on kills from anyone in raid.</P> <P>I think we would be better off than with despoil cause of cap issue. people with experience stated that despoil didn't do much effect if at all when you already have all other mitigation debuff up. I agree that rests to prove, but some did some extended testing of class combinations.</P> <P>Just to pinpoint, we do use CAs even tho some are categorized in spell list. By CAs, i mean skills that will trigger melee procs, even if they do disease damage. Top of my head, the list is pariah's brand, venomous slam, smash, agony, fetid smite for single targets, death circle and doom judgement for pbae. Our pet would benefit from melee proc impairment too.</P> <P>The dirge's spell that decrease encounter mitigation is clara's crazed cacophony on my lvl 43 dirge. YOu can figure out the name of the line i think.</P><p>Message Edited by Hicarse on <span class=date_text>08-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 PM</span>

[Ultimatum]

I don't think it's possible to incorporate a "proc impairment" onto a spell that you cast on a mob.  Increasing the efficiency of melee attacks and adding a proc to a melee swing are 2 different things, and I would not want to give up a good debuff for yet another proc.  There are many classes that overlap buffs, would you argue about wanting to replace one classes haste buff because another class also has a haste buff and when stacked one cancels the other out?  I've never read such posts about people testing Despoil with other debuffs but maybe I overlooked it, either way I'd rather overlap debuffs than have some extra proc with a fixed duration.While SKs do indeed have some CAs, the ratio of spell damage to CA/autoattack damage over any given time is at best 70/30 and that's being conservative...the fact is that SKs derive far more from spells than CAs and adding another melee proc to SKs (we already have 2) just seems silly to me.  Also of note, while it may seem like our pet does melee, it actually counts as magic damage, not to mention dumbfire pets don't benefit from any buffs from what I've seen.How is Death March an agro tool?  in groups it is decent at best but the DPS buff only lasts 15 seconds and only counts autoattack.  I'm not about to get into one of my big Death march arguments again as I've posted quite enough on it, but the aggro that could be generated from that spell pales in comparison to anything else you could have done instead of wasting the time to even cast that spell.<div></div>

[Hicar]

it's an agro tool cause each time you proc on the march, it's huge agro for you

[Chaaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR>How is Death March an agro tool?  in groups it is decent at best but the DPS buff only lasts 15 seconds and only counts autoattack.  I'm not about to get into one of my big Death march arguments again as I've posted quite enough on it, but the aggro that could be generated from that spell pales in comparison to anything else you could have done instead of wasting the time to even cast that spell.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>When Death March procs, it jumps threat by a huge margin (you just buffed 6 members).</P> <P>Also, Death March is simply wonderful the way it is.  Immunity, DPS boost, and INT boost, all from constant killing.  Even 95% + success rate on raids with a Conjurer buffing with Ember Seed.  This spell does not need improvement at all, and I for one would be totally disappointed if it was changed.</P> <P>I like the idea of a debuff that allows for procs.  Great idea.  I am not sure of how implimentation would go for it, but lets leave that up to the game designers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Tyrani]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Venymous wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>what dirge spell reduces physical mitigation?</FONT> <BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Clara's Cataclysmic Cacophany - 52</DIV> <DIV>Clara's Catastrophic Cacophany - 66</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both are encounter wide...<BR></DIV>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Chaaz wrote:<div></div><p>When Death March procs, it jumps threat by a huge margin (you just buffed 6 members).</p> <p>Also, Death March is simply wonderful the way it is.  Immunity, DPS boost, and INT boost, all from constant killing.  Even 95% + success rate on raids with a Conjurer buffing with Ember Seed.  This spell does not need improvement at all, and I for one would be totally disappointed if it was changed.</p> <p>I like the idea of a debuff that allows for procs.  Great idea.  I am not sure of how implimentation would go for it, but lets leave that up to the game designers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>Death March is a group buff...if the threat increase from buffing 6 people was significant, than the spell is even worse than I thought because whoever scores the killing blow would actually proc the spell and get the threat.I wasn't planning on going off on this piece of garbage spell again but you brought it out of me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />1) The immunity is the only useful thing about the spell, and even so it is so unreliable and useless against single target encounters that it cancels itself out.  80% of the time, any mob that uses any of these detrimental effects is a solo named mob...even in a non raid setting, are you really going to risk pulling an encounter, proccing On the March, and then quickly pulling the named?  Against a named with adds, the spell is OK, but most heroic named with adds don't have control spells, and any epic named with adds that DOES use control spells can be easily countered by a capable raid force without the use of Death March.  Long story short, the spell is extremely flawed when you look at percentages and facts.  If the spell simply cast On the March upon casting Death March and then had the changce to reproc it upon killing something it would be a lot more useful as it would work against single mob encounters.  Of course it would still be limited on raids as the most important group to avoid control spells is the MT group and 9 times out of 10 there is going to be a Templar in the group which provides an infinately more reliable control prevention spell in Sanctuary.2) The DPS buff is laughable.  Any class that could REALLY benefit from a DPS increase is likely to be in a group that provides a permanent DPS boost, and even if said class has an 80% DPS increase, On the March will only effectively give an extra +20% DPS boost for 15 seconds...hardly worth writing home about.  Also of note, SKs hardly benefit from such a boost as we are largely a casting tank class and as such will get minimal benefit from a 100% increase to auto attack damage for 15 seconds...And even if it were a big deal and proc'd 100% on raids, the spell only really helps in clearing trash mobs faster, as I've stated before that the majority of raid named come solo.3) The Int boost...any class that derives a useful benefit from Int likely has it capped or close to it in a raid setting.  Arguing against that likelyhood, however even if the +175 Int was completely utilized by everyone in the group, that gives what, a +2% increase to spell damage for 15 seconds?  In a word, useless.What the spell needs is at the very least some kind of group wide hostile spell proc, focus, and disruption buff (to be more beneficial to the SKs fighting style than a laughable autoattack DPS increase), as well as somehow being made much more reliable and usefull against single target encounters.  I've said it a thousand times before, but hopefully at least some of the SKs that read this can see how flawed the spell is.</div>

[Arieneth]

<DIV>i use DM all the time...when i run around lowbie zones casting Despoil and DM trying to get a new high hit. that is one of the few times DM is actually useful. i never ever cast that waste of place on my hotbar unless it's in pvp for all the reasons Razer just listed.</DIV>

[Hicar]

<div></div>DM isn't a spel lthat get his max usefullness when pulling single encounters. This spell i use to clear rooms of mobs.Each time anyone in your group get the kill shot, YOU cast on the march and get the full agro for the buff. It's actually a very good taunt. I can pull 10 multi mob encounters and not loose agro once as long as people keep to assist me for a fast kill on first mob so DM start procing. Then all can go all out aeing and get many more procs for huge agro. See that room with 3 huge links of little drakotas in HoF? if i go there with a zerk tanking and i cast DM, i'll steal agro just casting my aes.If you don't know that, you don't know much about sks imo.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Hicarse on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Ultimatum]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Venymous wrote:<div>i use DM all the time...when i run around lowbie zones casting Despoil and DM trying to get a new high hit. that is one of the few times DM is actually useful. i never ever cast that waste of place on my hotbar unless it's in pvp for all the reasons Razer just listed.</div><hr></blockquote>Haha I did the same thing trying to break 3K with the Ghostly Axe of Bylze.  Don't get me wrong though...that spell is PvP gold against groups...I'd just rather not waste an Ancient Teachings spell on something that only really shines in PvP...it should be useful in any setting.Another thing I just thought that would give the spell more utility would be to have it dispell controll effects in addition to preventing them.  I should probably start a new thread to catch dev attention but they have never responded to my long winded breakdowns of the spells innate flaws, plus I'm tired of typing about it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />EDIT:<div><blockquote><hr>Hicarse wrote:DM isn't a spel lthat get his max usefullness when pulling single encounters. This spell i use to clear rooms of mobs.Each time anyone in your group get the kill shot, YOU cast on the march and get the full agro for the buff. It's actually a very good taunt. I can pull 10 multi mob encounters and not loose agro once as long as people keep to assist me for a fast kill on first mob so DM start procing. Then all can go all out aeing and get many more procs for huge agro. See that room with 3 huge links of little drakotas in HoF? if i go there with a zerk tanking and i cast DM, i'll steal agro just casting my aes.<font color="#ff0000">I</font><font color="#ff0000">f you don't know that, you don't know much about sks imo</font>.<p>Message Edited by Hicarse on <span class="date_text">08-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:04 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div><span>:smileyvery-happy:  How are you so sure that YOU proc the spell?  There is really no way to prove or disprove it, but if you read the spell and look at it when you cast it (everyone gets the Death March buff)  it implies that whoever gets the killing blow would proc On the March, but even if it works as you suggest, if you have to rely on an On the March proc to hold AE aggro than YOU don't know much about SKs IMO <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Also, saying something like "</span>See that room with 3 huge links of little drakotas in HoF?"  only solidifies my statement that the spell is only somewhat useful in clearing trash mobs with a single group, and trash mobs rarely use control spells.  Even for the few zones that have such trash mobs, if you can't kill them without the use of Death March than there's something more messed up than that spell.  All Death March is imo is a glorified fun spell for people who like to see marginally higher DPS numbers every 3 minutes.</div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[Arieneth]

<P>wow...the drakota room in HoF, huh? 3 groups of triple down arrow mobs. yep, you really need DM for that fight. any melee class can 1 or 2 shot one of those before they auto attack twice to make use of On the March. Caster's receive nothing from it and all the ae's flying in the room mean the fight is over in 1 second which means you wasted more time casting DM than actually doing something useful...like i don't know, maybe attacking. if you need DM to actually steal agro on mobs from <EM>three seperate enounters, </EM>you aren't playing your class right. since you mentioned you pulled agro with "just" your ae's, I'll assume you did so with the Int buff from DM. and if your Int is low enough that you need the buff from DM, you aren't playing your class right still. In offensive stance I am easily close to or over the Int cap depending on the group.</P> <P>the fact of the matter is, DM is useful for clearing trash mobs where you don't even need DM in the first place. in an encounter with mobs that use control spells, a good group would burn down the target that controls first and not worry about trying to get On the March up in time to make use of it. i don't even know how people can even argue that DM is a good spell as is. /boggle</P>

[Chaaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Of course it would still be limited on raids as the most important group to avoid control spells is the MT group and 9 times out of 10 there is going to be a Templar in the group which provides an infinately more reliable control prevention spell in Sanctuary.<BR><BR> <HR>  </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I fully agree with this statement.  The Immunity isn't without it's conditions that need to be met.  But, it is a bonus to the spell that makes for constant killing within the limited duration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Also of note, SKs hardly benefit from such a boost as we are largely a casting tank class and as such will get minimal benefit from a 100% increase to auto attack damage for 15 seconds...<BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Razer, please help me with this portion of your statement.  I do not believe I see your point.  To say we hardly benifit from a DPS boost is like saying every other melee will also hardly benifit from the boost.  CA's, like spells, do not receive any help due to DPS boosts.  And the INT increase helps out casting side of our abilities.  Also, if you have Trample, DPS increase is definitely not a trivial boost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>What the spell needs is at the very least some kind of group wide hostile spell proc, focus, and disruption buff (to be more beneficial to the SKs fighting style than a laughable autoattack DPS increase), as well as somehow being made much more reliable and usefull against single target encounters.  I've said it a thousand times before, but hopefully at least some of the SKs that read this can see how flawed the spell is.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, I truely feel for your dusgust for the spell.  If you want a melee proc, focus, and disruption buff, get Seal from a Warlock.  You can get 33 skill from the Master.  If you want spell procs, get gear for it.  If you want a spell against a single target opponent, use other abilities.  This spell, like Pestilence, relies on conditions.  Please, for the love of that which is most unholy, live with the spell the way it is without complaining.  I for one, do not see it changing ever.  I can fully utilize this spell to its maxium potential givin its condition constraints.  And, I'm sure you can as well...<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Death March is a group buff...if the threat increase from buffing 6 people was significant, than the spell is even worse than I thought because whoever scores the killing blow would actually proc the spell and get the threat.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm sorry Razer, this comment iritated me.  This is why any class if you will, get a bad name.  If you do not realize that the spell On the March originates from you, no matter who gets the killing shot in your group, you do not realize how this spell functions fully.  To not fully understand our spells, and then complain about thier flaws, is totally disrespectful to all those other Shadowknights who want to learn the spell in question and how to benifit from it fully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used to be the same as you on this spell.  I hated the conditions.  Much like Pestilence.  But you know, learning that timing a spell when those conditions are set, and making the best out of it, will make you shine more then spouting off garbage about your dissatisfaction.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ultimatum]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Chaaz wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <hr> Razerblaze wrote: <div>Of course it would still be limited on raids as the most important group to avoid control spells is the MT group and 9 times out of 10 there is going to be a Templar in the group which provides an infinately more reliable control prevention spell in Sanctuary. <hr>  </div></blockquote> <div>I fully agree with this statement.  The Immunity isn't without it's conditions that need to be met.  But, it is a bonus to the spell that makes for constant killing within the limited duration.<font color="#ff0000">To take advantage of the constant killing would imply that you are clearing trash mobs.  Please tell me where you are blowing through trash mobs that this immunity is beneficial to you and your group?  Vaults is the only place I can fathom that this spell would be remotely useful, and I for one have cleared that zone many times with nary a thought about even casting Death March.  Possibly Cazel too but I have solod that zone also without Death March.</font></div> <div> </div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Razerblaze wrote: <div>Also of note, SKs hardly benefit from such a boost as we are largely a casting tank class and as such will get minimal benefit from a 100% increase to auto attack damage for 15 seconds... <hr> </div> <div> </div></blockquote> <div>Razer, please help me with this portion of your statement.  I do not believe I see your point.  To say we hardly benifit from a DPS boost is like saying every other melee will also hardly benifit from the boost.  CA's, like spells, do not receive any help due to DPS boosts.  And the INT increase helps out casting side of our abilities.  Also, if you have Trample, DPS increase is definitely not a trivial boost.</div> <div> <font color="#ff0000">Actually it's not like saying that at all.  Next time you do an instance or a raid zone, run a parse for the entire zone and check your percentages.  8-10% of an SKs total damage is attributed to melee.  Scouts are in the 20-40% range, Zerkers/Guardians are about 30%, Bruisers are roughly 35%, Monks are 60% easy, hell even Pallys can be in the 30-40% range...see the point yet?  SK's cast almost as much as Mages therefore, while we crank out good DPS, only a very small portion is from melee, yet we have a buff that gives us a 100% increase for 15 seconds...even if we had a permenant 100% DPS increase over the course of a raid, it would only effect our DPS in a minimal amount as we would still be behind practically every other class for melee % : spell/CA ratio.  While you could argue that an SK could spec for melee and haste and benefit much more from this buff, I highly doubt such an SK would be able to compete DPS-wise with one that specs for spell crit DPS.  As for the INT portion, if you are speccing for DPS and still need to rely on the +175 INT from DM to cap your INT, you aren't doing something right.</font></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Razerblaze wrote: <div>What the spell needs is at the very least some kind of group wide hostile spell proc, focus, and disruption buff (to be more beneficial to the SKs fighting style than a laughable autoattack DPS increase), as well as somehow being made much more reliable and usefull against single target encounters.  I've said it a thousand times before, but hopefully at least some of the SKs that read this can see how flawed the spell is.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Ok, I truely feel for your dusgust for the spell.  If you want a melee proc, focus, and disruption buff, get Seal from a Warlock.  You can get 33 skill from the Master.  If you want spell procs, get gear for it.  If you want a spell against a single target opponent, use other abilities.  This spell, like Pestilence, relies on conditions.  Please, for the love of that which is most unholy, live with the spell the way it is without complaining.  I for one, do not see it changing ever.  I can fully utilize this spell to its maxium potential givin its condition constraints.  And, I'm sure you can as well...<font color="#ff0000">I am fully aware of other classes buffs, as well as the crusader AA that gives +32 to all combat attributes, I have spell proc gear (an SK with troub/illusionist spell proc buffs can crank out insane DPS).  </font>"If you want a spell against a single target opponent, use other abilities." <font color="#ff0000">Ummm every other group hostile spell or CA for every class is still effective against a single target except Death March.  I do, in fact, use other abilities because I don't use DM, ever.  I realize that the spell relies on condition, that is my entire argument...the conditions in which the spell relies on are what makes it useless!  Pestilence is an excellent, efficient spell against a single target...its use is magnified if there are other targets to spread to, but either way it doesnt detract from the usefullness of the spell.  DM on the other hand is UNUSABLE against a single target.  Why would I want to live with the spell the way it is in its flawed state?!  You are telling me you wouldnt like to see this spell broadened in utility to where it is useful no matter when you cast it or what mob you cast it on?  </font>"I can fully utilize this spell to its maxium potential givin its condition constraints."  <font color="#ff0000">You cant, in any feasible way, use this spell to it's maximum potential for the sole reason that it HAS no maximum potential due to the fact that it is USELESS AGAINST A SOLO MOB unless you are planning on chain pulling.  There are spells which are less effective against a solo mob, for instance an AoE loses its efficiency if cast on a solo mob, but it still does something against that mob.  You CHOOSE not to cast an AoE on a solo mob because of that very reason, therefore you are using that spell to its maximum potential at any time because you are CHOOSING when it is useful and when it isn't.  The exact SECOND in time that Death March is up against a solo mob and you don't cast it for the reason that it will have no effect, you just threw "maximum potential" out the window because weather or not you cast the spell it will have no effect against the solo mob you are currently fighting.  I suppose that, in and of itself, is the spell's maximum potential, but if you ask me, that's a pretty limited potential.</font></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Razerblaze wrote: <div>Death March is a group buff...if the threat increase from buffing 6 people was significant, than the spell is even worse than I thought because whoever scores the killing blow would actually proc the spell and get the threat. <hr> </div></blockquote>I'm sorry Razer, this comment iritated me.  This is why any class if you will, get a bad name.  If you do not realize that the spell On the March originates from you, no matter who gets the killing shot in your group, you do not realize how this spell functions fully.  To not fully understand our spells, and then complain about thier flaws, is totally disrespectful to all those other Shadowknights who want to learn the spell in question and how to benifit from it fully.</div> <div> </div> <div>I used to be the same as you on this spell.  I hated the conditions.  Much like Pestilence.  But you know, learning that timing a spell when those conditions are set, and making the best out of it, will make you shine more then spouting off garbage about your dissatisfaction.</div></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">I fully realize that the spell ORIGINATES from me.  The spell Frostbound Gift is a short duration group-wide hostile spell proc.  The spell reads "on a successful hostile spell this spell will cast Ice Lash on target of spell" much like Death March reads "when target strikes a death blow this spell will cast On the March on target"  If the Wizard casts Gift, do the procs from everyone in the group count as hate towards the wizard or the initiator of the proc?  Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the person who procs the spell generates the hate from it.  Same goes for Death March.  This is different than a spell such as Netheros Realm which is a Warlock buff applied to the mob which reads "when target is damage with a spell this spell will cast Netheros Void on target" Clearly stating that any time anyone in the group or raid damages the target with a spell during the duration, the WARLOCK procs extra damage effectively generating agro toward the Warlock.  However, even so, this whole "who gets hate from proccing On the March" is irrelevant to my argument, it was just a side argument that doesnt sway my opinion that Death March is a useless spell.  Implying that my arguing this gives SKs a bad name as a whole is offensive to me as I stick up for the SKs who know what they are talking about, I provide help to new SKs and their questions, and frankly I supply valid topics of discussion and argument that try and help broaden other SKs ways of thinking and overall help the community in general, even if I do appear to some as an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]hole.  It is my personal goal to get Death March changed to where it remains a similar buff, but has applications in any situation against any number of mobs so it isnt a dead buff on every SKs hotbar for every solo named fight.  You never used to be the same as me for the very reason that after I have supplied valid reasons and mathematical proof that the spell is flawed as it is, you still fail to see any of my points, so please do not compare yourself to me in any way.  Also for the record, I loved pestilence from the time that it was a broken AE, and I love it even more now because it is, in my opinion, one of the most flavorful and perfect class-fitting spells in an SK's arsenal, and one of the coolest spells in the game.  And don't try to talk to me about timing and making the best out of things, because I already do those things.  I'll spout off my dissatisfaction over this terrible spell as much as I want, because I, unlike you, am making valid points meant to make other SKs see the light that the spell isn't all it appears to be in hopes that some will agree and try to get it changed into something useful.  It's your choice to read my "garbage" posts...if you don't like it, don't read it, because once you read it you can't unread it <span>:smileywink:</span></font><hr></blockquote>All I'm saying is that everything about that spell contradicts itself and the SK class as a whole.  We are a casting tank class with minimal total melee damage output, yet the spell gives us a negligable DPS increase.  The buff relies on killing a large amount of mobs to recieve immunity to control spells, yet 90% of such large mobs don't cast any control spells.  Against mobs where control immunity actually MEANS something, the spell is useless because 9/10 said mob is by itself, and the few times a mob with control spells ISN'T by itself, immunity from DM isn't even worth the trouble of trying to work out some strategy of killing an add, switching to the named for 10 seconds, killing an add, switching, etc. to keep the immunity going.  And finally, we are a class that relies on INT for spell damage, and our adept 3 offensive stance gives us +197 INT, thus reducing the effectiveness of the INT buff from Death March.  I realize that this is a GROUP wide buff, but in a case where all of those buffs would actually matter, the benefits are far outweighed by the hassle of casting and maintaining the buff.   /end rant</div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>