SK Raid Idea

[Griffona]

So I've been following the thread in the combat discussion board regarding the uselessness of SK's in raids.I've got an idea for an added skill to make SK's more desireable in raids.Brigand Strength Debuff (ie a broad spectrum debuff on the scale brigs do)My reasonings<ol><li>It fits with the SK MO</li><li>Most skills in the game aren't unique to one class, brig level debuffs are one of the truely super unique abilities....granted I know brigs enjoy that fact, but all of the other cool utilities in the game are shared ....mezz stun stifle root power regen procs damage shields..ect ect.</li><li>It wouldn't, in my opinion overpower the SK as a tank, but rather just give SK's a place as a non MT purpose.</li></ol>My concerns<ol><li>With stackable debuffs on this scale raid content might become trivial</li><li>Pallys might defect en masse</li><li>Doesn't address hate/aggro for SK's</li></ol><div></div>

[Xartan]

<DIV>We already have a strength debuff and a mit debuff... am I missing something here?</DIV>

[Griffona]

Yes, you are missing something....its clear by your question, you have no idea how impotent your debuffs are in comparison to Brig Debuffs.I observed this weekend that my DPS increases a solid 200+ DPS with the presence of a Brigand that arrived mid raid.<div></div>

[Arieneth]

<DIV>no, you are missing something. you are a tank. if you want debuffs, roll a brigand or dirge. SK's aren't designed to debuff...hence why we have so few. i can't even fathom why you are trying to argue that we need more debuffs when our job is to hold agro and take damage. im not sure if you noticed, but your spells do a specific type of dmg, namely disease. you have a big disease debuff and a wisdom debuff. try using them.</DIV>

[Nicholai24]

Brigands are a scout class. Scouts are DPS + Utility. If they have more potent debuffs, that's cool.My DPS increases by around 130 with Despoil (Master 1) and a Hex Doll. We're not supposed to have debuffs on par with a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing Brigand, because we're not supposed to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing scout-level utility, warlock-level DPS, Guardian-efficiency Juggernaut uberclasses that can do everything in the game better than everyone else. If we were, we'd have 24 man raids comprised entirely of shadowknights.A cool idea, perhaps, but let's be reasonable.We don't tank less effectively than a Guardian or a Berserker. We don't even tank differently. We simply require more intelligence to play <i>well.</i> Keeping that in mind, we are already where we need to be in terms of effectiveness as group and raid tanks, we simply need to overcome the stigma that we've been stubbornly fostering and clinging to since pre-LU13.If you cannot find a guild which will accept you, A) work on your people skills, or B) form your own, or transfer. The reason those guilds won't accept you is because A) They already have enough tanks, and don't need more, in which case your argument about making shadowknights -- and paladins, unless you're a hypocrit -- AS integral on a raid as another NON-Tank class is just plain ridiculous, because all you're asking is what everyone else on these threads asks for, after a paragraph or two of complaints, which I'll sum up:<b>" BLAAAAARGH!!! I'M A SHADOWKNIGHT AND I GOT STIFFED BY SOE!! NO RAIDING GUILDS WANT ME!!! I DEMAND EQUAL TREATMENT AS A TANK, BUT I ALSO DEMAND THAT I BE ALLOWED INTO A RAIDING GUILD, EVEN WHEN BERSERKERS AND GUARDIANS ARE BEING TURNED DOWN!!! "</b>Or, it could be B) You're reaping the benefits of the collective inferiority complex half our population cultivates.We are not a utility class. We are a tanking class. If you do not enjoy tanking, find a guild that will let you pretend to be DPS -- something we're decent at, but not something we're built for -- or else, enjoy pick-up raids and one-groupable content. You rolled a tank, not a scout. We all rolled a tank, not a scout. We are tanks. We tank. If we have any utility at ALL to offer, it's more than any other tank can say.Quit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing crying.<div></div>

[Griffona]

<blockquote><hr>Venymous wrote:<div>no, you are missing something. you are a tank. if you want debuffs, roll a brigand or dirge. SK's aren't designed to debuff...hence why we have so few. i can't even fathom why you are trying to argue that we need more debuffs when our job is to hold agro and take damage. </div></blockquote><div>This discussion is reserved for RAID context, which means your often not goign to be the MT taking Damage...I threw this out there specificlly because it makes SK's usefull when not tanking...I guess that one flew over your head.</div><blockquote><div>im not sure if you noticed, but your spells do a specific type of dmg, namely disease. you have a big disease debuff and a wisdom debuff. try using them.</div></blockquote>again...the point is for raid context. For the SK to be helpful to the raid as a whole not just him/herself....massive debuffing to assist the whole raid is a desireable component, more desire than current SK skills or SK Main tanking.<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Nicholai24]

<div></div>Yeah, what that other guy said.You do know Agony is a resistance debuff, right? Like, a big one? Around 400 to all resistances across the board? Combined with an 1100 disease resistance debuff, and a 1600 physical mit. debuff?RAIDS DO NOT NEED MORE THAN ONE TANK. If you are NOT tanking, you're a charity case like every other tank allowed to come along. A tank who is NOT tanking is second-string DPS. ( or worse, if you're a Guardian or Paladin.. ) We don't need any more utility than any other tank in the game, but we HAVE more utility by a long shot already. Make do.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nicholai24 wrote:<div></div>Yeah, what that other guy said.You do know Agony is a resistance debuff, right? <hr></blockquote>Not to mention Despoil Master 1 Debuffs physical Mitigation by 1600...yeah I guess that doesnt help anyone in the raid except the Shadowknight.  Wizards can only debuff cold and heat, want to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about that in the Wizard forums too?</div>

[Griffona]

<div></div>Well I'm glad to see SK pride out today....but considering the general concensus in the Combat Discussion forum is that the SK was proported by most everyone as the "Most Useless Raid Class" (Don't blame me, not my words)  I expect there are a few SKs with opinions other than "leave us alone we're fine". And for those citing Despoil....again that's 1/3 the strength that I'm referring to.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Griffonage on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Arieneth]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This discussion is reserved for RAID context, which means your often not goign to be the MT taking Damage...I threw this out there specificlly because it makes SK's usefull when not tanking...I guess that one flew over your head.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>no, it looks like it flew over <EM>your</EM> head. this is quite simple...if are solo, in a group, or in a raid, even if you are down the street shopping for groceries...SK's...ARE...TANKS. regardless of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you are doing and when, you are still a tank and designed to take dmg, tanking or not...its game design...wah, have a tissue. like everyone else has already mentioned, we have a big mit debuff, disease debuff, wis debuff, and str debuff.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P> </P> <DIV> <HR>  <BR>again...the point is for raid context. For the SK to be helpful to the raid as a whole not just him/herself....massive debuffing to assist the whole raid is a desireable component, more desire than current SK skills or SK Main tanking.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>yes yes, i heard you. you aren't hearing us. we have debuffs, they help the raid, etc...quit making me repeat myself.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>btw, what level SK are you?</FONT></STRONG></DIV>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Griffonage wrote:<div></div>Well I'm glad to see SK pride out today....but considering the general concensus in the Combat Discussion forum is that the SK was proported by most everyone as the "Most Useless Raid Class" (Don't blame me, not my words)  I expect there are a few SKs with opinions other than "leave us alone we're fine". And for those citing Despoil....again that's 1/3 the strength that I'm referring to.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Griffonage on <span class="date_text">07-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:06 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Hey, I'm a big supporter of SK's being fine as is, but I do agree that some things need changed.  That said, I don't think debuffs are among the things that need changed.  My biggest problem with the mechanics is that our Blessing line doesnt generate NEARLY enough hate as it should.  If an SK is tanking he should NEVER lose aggro due to the fact that the Blessing line should, in theory, generate more aggro than any other tank's taunts.  If it really were 1 point of damage/heal = 1 point of hate, Grave Blessing Master 1 should generate upwards of 3200 points of hate by the time it expires, and that is most certainly and unarguably NOT the case.</div>

[Nicholai24]

<div><blockquote><hr>Griffonage wrote:<div></div>... but considering the general concensus in the Combat Discussion forum is that the SK was proported by most everyone as the "Most Useless Raid Class" (Don't blame me, not my words)  I expect there are a few SKs with opinions other than "leave us alone we're fine"...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Those idiots aren't even worth dignifying with a response, and I don't have enough tissues to dry their tears.<blockquote><hr>And for those citing Despoil....again that's 1/3 the strength that I'm referring to.<div></div><hr></blockquote>1/3rd, huh. Is that a hard number? How did you calculate that? We don't operate on guesstimates. Also, did you miss the whole, ' Despoil is more utility alone than any other Tank class has ', or the ' If ANY tank is allowed to attend a raid, aside from being the MT, they're there only because the raid leader has a kind heart ', or perhaps even the ' We're perceived as useless because we perceive ourselves as useless ' statements? All I'm seeing here is bland indifference to the truth, and endless repetition of baseless opinions.We don't need more utility. We're fine as is.</div>

[Arieneth]

those are just the SK's that have no effing clue whats going on. a good SK that can play his class produce insane dps/overall dmg in a raid while...guess what...debuffing and helping other classes produce good numbers. the whiners that complain that SK's are useless should make use of the "Delete" button on character select and roll a class that is more suited to their play level.

[Nicholai24]

<div><blockquote><hr>Razerblaze wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Hey, I'm a big supporter of SK's being fine as is, but I do agree that some things need changed.  That said, I don't think debuffs are among the things that need changed.  My biggest problem with the mechanics is that our Blessing line doesnt generate NEARLY enough hate as it should.  If an SK is tanking he should NEVER lose aggro due to the fact that the Blessing line should, in theory, generate more aggro than any other tank's taunts.  If it really were 1 point of damage/heal = 1 point of hate, Grave Blessing Master 1 should generate upwards of 3200 points of hate by the time it expires, and that is most certainly and unarguably NOT the case.</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>The 1/1 ratio of damage to hate is, by all accounts, correct. However, 1/1 heal per hate is not accurate. Devs have stated that heals generate (much) less hate than damage. The real 'issue' shadowknights have with Hate is that, as not everyone seems to be aware of, Hate decays over the course of a fight, which means that three 1500 Hate taunts will not give you 4500 accumulated hate at the end. What we're not sure of is exactly how rapidly hate decays, but I think it's actually quicker than many believe. If so, this explains why anything short of Adept III taunts lack the snap-aggro. capability needed to maintain aggro. in a group. Of all the tanks, however, shadowknights seem to have the most stable aggro., once properly AA'd and Master'd out, because our Threat-over-Time works to staunch the 'bleeding out' of aggro. we accrue over the course of protracted combat. I'd like to see some hard numbers on how hate decays, myself.</div>

[Ultimatum]

<div></div>Yeah, that makes sense...I'd also like to see SOE put in how much you actually taunt for...they added the useless "XX rolls 54" for loot rolls, it can't be that hard to add "you taunt XX for 1034 hate"  Also, if SOE would allow critical taunts I think that alone would fix the crusader aggro issue everyone complains about, because we'd have a 68% chance to crit taunt, and be able to see and parse it.  I definately agree with the taunt over time thing though....I have seen countless SKs complain and tear it down, but what they are overlooking (in addition to balancing taunt decay) is when a mob aggro wipes, an SK will have a MUCH easier time getting aggro back as his taunts will still be ticking even if all taunts are refreshing.  I still believe, however, that the Blessing line generates far less hate than it should, not just for SKs, but for the MT that an SK would cast it on.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Razerblaze on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 AM</span>

[Arieneth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Razerblaze wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hey, I'm a big supporter of SK's being fine as is, but I do agree that some things need changed.  That said, I don't think debuffs are among the things that need changed.  My biggest problem with the mechanics is that our Blessing line doesnt generate NEARLY enough hate as it should.  If an SK is tanking he should NEVER lose aggro due to the fact that the Blessing line should, in theory, generate more aggro than any other tank's taunts.  If it really were 1 point of damage/heal = 1 point of hate, Grave Blessing Master 1 should generate upwards of 3200 points of hate by the time it expires, and that is most certainly and unarguably NOT the case.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The 1/1 ratio of damage to hate is, by all accounts, correct. However, 1/1 heal per hate is not accurate. Devs have stated that heals generate (much) less hate than damage. The real 'issue' shadowknights have with Hate is that, as not everyone seems to be aware of, Hate decays over the course of a fight, which means that three 1500 Hate taunts will not give you 4500 accumulated hate at the end. What we're not sure of is exactly how rapidly hate decays, but I think it's actually quicker than many believe. If so, this explains why anything short of Adept III taunts lack the snap-aggro. capability needed to maintain aggro. in a group. Of all the tanks, however, shadowknights seem to have the most stable aggro., once properly AA'd and Master'd out, because our Threat-over-Time works to staunch the 'bleeding out' of aggro. we accrue over the course of protracted combat. I'd like to see some hard numbers on how hate decays, myself.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i disagree. i have a master 1 ae taunt, ad 3 single target taunt, and master 1 shield bash, and i still get agro holding problems. warriors get bigger taunts and never lose agro. if i dont get good agro right off the bat, i tend to lose it easily cuz of taunt-over-time. i dont feel i should have to pass up more benefitial AA's because SOE is overlooking the SK agro issue. it could be such an easy fix because we already have the buff in our lineup. the Caress buff line could be easily modified to be useful beyond giving essences. the measly 47 hate and 23 dmg or whatever it does is useless. it could be tooled to work like Amends or something

[Nicholai24]

Master 1 Caress = around 150ish threat each time you're hit. Combined with quickfire AEs and a lifetap ward, we're fine in the AE aggro. department. Also, if you use Heroic Opportunities ( very frequently, like you should, because they're free.. ), aggro. becomes even more stable. I've always said this, and I'll say it again: We're not like other Tanks, in that we can engage an enemy and mash taunts, and expect to hold aggro. with any sort of consistency. Always have your Ward up before you pull, always pull with a damage spell or a taunt, and always launch a heroic op. directly after you engage the enemy. If you have issues with aggro., it's a problem with your AA set-up, your spells or combat arts, or your playstyle, because if <i>I'm </i>not having issues, and I wasn't having issues with even a Legendary weapon and half the AAs, you shouldn't be. I'll give a description of exactly what I do on a particular pull later on.At the moment, though, I feel our aggro. capacities are alright. They could be better, I guess, but I don't have any problems at all, even on protracted group combat, like fighting Sothis with two healers, a 66 paladin, a 70 Coercer, and a 70 Ranger. We had time for three adds to show up, and I never lost aggro. once to anyone in the group. If you need extra hate on named encounters, just burn Harm Touch. It reloads more than fast enough to use it on every named in Halls of Fate, for instance.<div></div>

[standupwookie]

There are other classes that can debuff mitigation and defense, and some do it better than a SK. Despoiling Mist was a great debuff during the 1-50 game.  Now, other classes can do the same...that being said, I always cast it..hehe

[Arieneth]

<P>i shouldn't have to burn long reuse spells just to keep agro. all my high dmg spells and my ward are at master 1. my taunts are ad3 and master 1. i have my full 68% spell crits.</P> <P>i chose certain AA's because i play on a pvp server. I took INT for spell crits, WIS for +35 to disruption, ministration, crushing, etc, and STA for Hammer Ground. the STR is a waste of AA's because STR is not needed by our class. i know i could have gone STR for hate increase, but what about before KoS when AA's weren't an option and agro was still an issue? there are times when i don't lose agro, but i dont feel i have the ability to walk into a fight and say "no way are you taking my agro." Warriors don't have any agro issues and Paladins have Amends to ensure they don't lose agro. SK's don't have a surefire method of keeping agro without burning long reuse spells. i find ae agro to be harder to keep. for instance, if grouped with a warlock, they can easily outdamage our 20sec reuse ae taunt with all of their ae's. i would just really love to see a buff that helps our agro aside from direct taunts.</P>

[Kryptonix]

I feel a lot more comfrotable holding agro when it comes to groups. I feel its much easier for me to lock down agro because of the AEs I have (all adept 3 or higher). It probaly helps that when I pull a group, I use Wrath on the first target and unload a full HO on him, then change targets because the other mobs in the encounter reach me before he does, finish an HO on the newly targeted mob and toss up some AEs. <div></div>

[Beldin_]

<P>Ok .. here is what we really need .. Double our life .. double our Miti .. double the damage of all spells and taunts .. make HT an instant recast and give us a 20k instant detaunt also for that for the case we're not tanking <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>And i think if we really would get all that, some people were still complaining how SKs suck <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Nicholai24]

If someone says, one more time, that 'Sure, shadowknights can debuff defense and disease, but so can X class!', I'm going to murder seventeen kittens, throw their corpses into a blender, puree them, forcefeed them to the individual's grandmother, and send a digital videotape of the entire process, including Before and After pictures, to said individual's P.O. Box.<div></div>

[Coica]

good read at least. but dear god.. dont do it!! --><img src="http://www.hometown.aol.co.uk/tizdebz/kitten%20and%20gun.jpg"><div></div>

[wakkogooch]

<DIV>i think the kitty will catch the bullet between his paws,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways, with the utilities and if you can get a good healer, SK's are awesome in a raid if there are multiple targets, also, the debuffs are nice, especially if you have several sk's, you can take an encounter down to 0 wis effectively removing his magical resistances and the mages can super nuke the target, and the str debuffs can make his attack practically useless. only problem you have at that point is our stun is useless against epics so we have to deal with him casting his own spells, which we don't have an int debuff, now that would be a nice addition to our spell repetior. another effective tool in raiding is our damage share spells, just cast it on you main casters and healers, and you can effective not have to worrk about aggro, if it attacks him, you'll take the damage anyways, and with the str line of aa's we also get boosts to hate at the upper tiers, very useful, and in the same line is a dps mod of 2.2% per level, maxed out that comes to 17.6% dps increase, plus the 30% from the previous level of aa's in the same line, makes you a dps machine while tanking at the same time, and with the buff/debuffing spells you can become a formitable raid machine, you just gotta look at you spells closely and plan ahead, and you can show them how tanking is really done.</DIV>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wakkogooch wrote:<BR> <DIV>i think the kitty will catch the bullet between his paws, <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Only if kitty is a guard or zerker, and the person who fires is a SK .. if kitty is an sk and the person who fires a zerker kitty will instantly explode into 1000 pieces .. lol <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Nicholai24]

<div></div>So, what you're saying is, Kittens are the most useless class on raids. Of course! SOE nerfed their size, their claw and teeth attacks, and reduced all of their base stats to one, while giving them a 'Adoreable Wide-Eyed Kitten Stare' power on a 15 minute reload. Sure, when the Stare criticals, it can do awesome damage, but as the other fellow mentioned, it's not really fair to have to rely on innate cuteness to maintain aggro.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <span class=date_text>07-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 PM</span>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>Nicholai24 wrote:<div></div>So, what you're saying is, Kittens are the most useless class on raids. Of course! SOE nerfed their size, their claw and teeth attacks, and reduced all of their base stats to one, while giving them a 'Adoreable Wide-Eyed Kitten Stare' power on a 15 minute reload. Sure, when the Stare criticals, it can do awesome damage, but as the other fellow mentioned, it's not really fair to have to rely on innate cuteness to maintain aggro.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <span class=date_text>07-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 PM</span><hr></blockquote>ROFL, im sure if such a class existed my wife would drop her fury in a second and re-roll <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class=date_text>07-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

[Colin MacLaren]

I am playing a SK on Talendor, which suffers from a very low population. I am in the only guild capable of doing raids. The guild officers told all the Shadowknights: "If you want to raid on a regular basis, reroll something else!" I doubt it is much different in most of the guild on other servers. So yes, we do need something useful.

[Arieneth]

or maybe what SK's really need are compitent raid leaders...

[Kelkirra]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>Brigands are a scout class. Scouts are DPS + Utility. If they have more potent debuffs, that's cool.<BR><BR>My DPS increases by around 130 with Despoil (Master 1) and a Hex Doll. We're not supposed to have debuffs on par with a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing Brigand, because we're not supposed to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing scout-level utility, warlock-level DPS, Guardian-efficiency Juggernaut uberclasses that can do everything in the game better than everyone else. If we were, we'd have 24 man raids comprised entirely of shadowknights.<BR><BR><BR>A cool idea, perhaps, but let's be reasonable.<BR><BR><BR>We don't tank less effectively than a Guardian or a Berserker. We don't even tank differently. We simply require more intelligence to play <I>well.</I> Keeping that in mind, we are already where we need to be in terms of effectiveness as group and raid tanks, we simply need to overcome the stigma that we've been stubbornly fostering and clinging to since pre-LU13.<BR><BR><BR>If you cannot find a guild which will accept you, A) work on your people skills, or B) form your own, or transfer. The reason those guilds won't accept you is because A) They already have enough tanks, and don't need more, in which case your argument about making shadowknights -- and paladins, unless you're a hypocrit -- AS integral on a raid as another NON-Tank class is just plain ridiculous, because all you're asking is what everyone else on these threads asks for, after a paragraph or two of complaints, which I'll sum up:<BR><BR><BR><B>" BLAAAAARGH!!! I'M A SHADOWKNIGHT AND I GOT STIFFED BY SOE!! NO RAIDING GUILDS WANT ME!!! I DEMAND EQUAL TREATMENT AS A TANK, BUT I ALSO DEMAND THAT I BE ALLOWED INTO A RAIDING GUILD, EVEN WHEN BERSERKERS AND GUARDIANS ARE BEING TURNED DOWN!!! "<BR><BR></B>Or, it could be B) You're reaping the benefits of the collective inferiority complex half our population cultivates.<BR><BR>We are not a utility class. We are a tanking class. If you do not enjoy tanking, find a guild that will let you pretend to be DPS -- something we're decent at, but not something we're built for -- or else, enjoy pick-up raids and one-groupable content. You rolled a tank, not a scout. We all rolled a tank, not a scout. We are tanks. We tank. If we have any utility at ALL to offer, it's more than any other tank can say.<BR><BR>Quit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing crying.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>/nod</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with 99% of this. My only concern is that you say that we do not tank differently  than warriors. Why do you believe this? We have to use a different management system for maintaining agro, have different types of attacks, different strengths and different weaknesses. What similarities do you see in the styles of tanking between warriors and crusaders. Not flaming here, I just want to know your prospective on this issue. Outside of that, I agree with everything else. We're a tanking class that has some utility and good DPS for a plate class =D. I'm happy with my SK and for the record, I'm not  in an end game raiding guild, just a family guild that raids t7 content =D, and I STILL tank. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Venymous wrote:<BR> or maybe what SK's really need are compitent raid leaders...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>AMEN

[Sokolov]

You are screwed then, Naldir.<div></div>

[Nicholai24]

I mean, I see no difference in end-game raids between what I do, and what all the other raid tanks in my guild do. We pull the boss, we head to the pin corner, we position the mob, and we attack the thing while the DPS waits for us to call 'engage'. Healers heal me and cure me, same as Guardians and 'Zerkers. If I lose aggro., I burn Harm Touch. If I lose aggro. again ( I can't remember a time in my recent past that this has occurred.. ) I burn Rescue. If I lose aggro. a third time, I debate whether to waste feign on some [Removed for Content] who can't use their own deaggro. spells, or else I check each bruiser and monk to see if their Rumble or D-Stance is up. Our taunts only take about a tick before reactive damage shield aggro., lifetap ward aggro., and melee and spell criticals match us up with any other tank. From my standpoint, I don't really tank any differently, aside from a little bit of self-healing here and there.<div></div>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>Master 1 Caress = around 150ish threat each time you're hit. Combined with quickfire AEs and a lifetap ward, we're fine in the AE aggro. department. Also, if you use Heroic Opportunities ( very frequently, like you should, because they're free.. ), aggro. becomes even more stable. I've always said this, and I'll say it again: We're not like other Tanks, in that we can engage an enemy and mash taunts, and expect to hold aggro. with any sort of consistency. Always have your Ward up before you pull, always pull with a damage spell or a taunt, and always launch a heroic op. directly after you engage the enemy. If you have issues with aggro., it's a problem with your AA set-up, your spells or combat arts, or your playstyle, because if <I>I'm </I>not having issues, and I wasn't having issues with even a Legendary weapon and half the AAs, you shouldn't be. I'll give a description of exactly what I do on a particular pull later on.<BR><BR>At the moment, though, I feel our aggro. capacities are alright. They could be better, I guess, but I don't have any problems at all, even on protracted group combat, like fighting Sothis with two healers, a 66 paladin, a 70 Coercer, and a 70 Ranger. We had time for three adds to show up, and I never lost aggro. once to anyone in the group. If you need extra hate on named encounters, just burn Harm Touch. It reloads more than fast enough to use it on every named in Halls of Fate, for instance.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>150ish threat for caress line? I take it that your adding the dmge it does onto the threat?</P> <P>As for your group, well if you lost agro in that group I would laugh.  Rangers afik have agro transfer.  Coercers afik have a group agro transfer.  Plent xfer of agro in that group.</P> <P>IHere is something I would like an sk who thinks our agro is fine to eplain to me.</P> <P>Group 70 zerker, 70sk, 57 defiler, 57 zerker.</P> <P>Location: Final lvl 65 named in poets palace (heroic drops dragon scales).</P> <P>Ok so i'm tanking.  Pretty decent geared, masters in all taunts cept Insid Promise.  I pull this named with M2 AE taunt, then hit HT which does 6000K+ dmge, then hit Venomous Slam.  So 1 threat = 1 dmge = 8k threat.</P> <P>Guess what??? The lvl 57 defiler pulled agro 3 sec later, omg I was shocked, she died and i got agro back, only to loose it 2sec later to the zerker.  Afik this mob does not have mem wipe.  </P> <P>Do you know how embarrassed I was, to loose agro to a 57 healer.</P> <P>Time for all you sks that think we are not broken to put your money where your mouth is and explain why on gods green earth this happened.  Taunts were not resisted.</P> <P>Btw, dont even bother posting if you have other grp members transfering agro to u.</P> <P>Plant<BR></P>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

lolz, mabye your just too uber and it was scared of you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Beldin_]

<P>I think the defiler was a cheater and instantly casted Ice comet and Fusion onto the mob <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Also now you should know .. always use wis debuff before HT <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Seriously .. the only moment when i see that healers a getting is aggro is on buddy pulls where i don't want to taunt directly because of social aggro. Then often the mobs first turn on the healer until i taunt them .. however .. don't know what went wrong there but there is normally now way that a 57 defiler can pull aggro from a 70 SK as long as the SK is not afk <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Beldin_ on <span class=date_text>07-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:34 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>Master 1 Caress = around 150ish threat each time you're hit. Combined with quickfire AEs and a lifetap ward, we're fine in the AE aggro. department. Also, if you use Heroic Opportunities ( very frequently, like you should, because they're free.. ), aggro. becomes even more stable. I've always said this, and I'll say it again: We're not like other Tanks, in that we can engage an enemy and mash taunts, and expect to hold aggro. with any sort of consistency. Always have your Ward up before you pull, always pull with a damage spell or a taunt, and always launch a heroic op. directly after you engage the enemy. If you have issues with aggro., it's a problem with your AA set-up, your spells or combat arts, or your playstyle, because if <I>I'm </I>not having issues, and I wasn't having issues with even a Legendary weapon and half the AAs, you shouldn't be. I'll give a description of exactly what I do on a particular pull later on.<BR><BR>At the moment, though, I feel our aggro. capacities are alright. They could be better, I guess, but I don't have any problems at all, even on protracted group combat, like fighting Sothis with two healers, a 66 paladin, a 70 Coercer, and a 70 Ranger. We had time for three adds to show up, and I never lost aggro. once to anyone in the group. If you need extra hate on named encounters, just burn Harm Touch. It reloads more than fast enough to use it on every named in Halls of Fate, for instance.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>150ish threat for caress line? I take it that your adding the dmge it does onto the threat?</P> <P>As for your group, well if you lost agro in that group I would laugh.  Rangers afik have agro transfer.  Coercers afik have a group agro transfer.  Plent xfer of agro in that group.</P> <P>IHere is something I would like an sk who thinks our agro is fine to eplain to me.</P> <P>Group 70 zerker, 70sk, 57 defiler, 57 zerker.</P> <P>Location: Final lvl 65 named in poets palace (heroic drops dragon scales).</P> <P>Ok so i'm tanking.  Pretty decent geared, masters in all taunts cept Insid Promise.  I pull this named with M2 AE taunt, then hit HT which does 6000K+ dmge, then hit Venomous Slam.  So 1 threat = 1 dmge = 8k threat.</P> <P>Guess what??? The lvl 57 defiler pulled agro 3 sec later, omg I was shocked, she died and i got agro back, only to loose it 2sec later to the zerker.  Afik this mob does not have mem wipe.  </P> <P>Do you know how embarrassed I was, to loose agro to a 57 healer.</P> <P>Time for all you sks that think we are not broken to put your money where your mouth is and explain why on gods green earth this happened.  Taunts were not resisted.</P> <P>Btw, dont even bother posting if you have other grp members transfering agro to u.</P> <P>Plant<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is unconfirmed, but from my experiences with PLing ppls alts through groups in the higher teir instances when the mobs are red/orange to them they seem to generate the most hate out of anyone else in the group. I've been in groups with my fury with a 70 pally tanking with amends on me, a 70 conj, 70 templar and a 70 wizzy and I'll still pull agro from doing jack but tossing out an AE heal here and there.. That part of the game seems a bit bugged to me but it's been consistant through out all of my tests with it. Even with amends on me, the tank taunting and the DPS going ape[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I'll still manage to get agro. Same with anyone else that rolls with  a lower toon when I'm tanking. I'll use my same tactics for tanking and the lowest person in the group will usually end up getting one shotted a few times during the group for no apparant reasoning. Even with them just standing there, they still manage to pull agro. We DO NOT have agro issues man. </P> <P>Nich, I see where you can believe that we tank the same as warriors but we have more options that we have to use due to the differences in classes. The heals, wards and hate over time. Warriors use nothing but CA's where we can use spells. I've heard of guardians tanking mobs like the Corsilander but I don't honestly understand how they could hold agro and not die honestly. Even with over 10K heat resist in my MT group for that fight I'll still get blasted by that damage shield if I try to equip a weapon. O_O I've heard it stated over and over and over that all tanks tank equally but differently and that certian mobs are designed for certian tanks and I still believe it to be true. I don't expect to be able to tank certian mobs AS WELL as the class that the mob was designed for. Not to say that I CAN'T tank it, just that I may not be as proficient at it as another class might be. </P>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR>You are screwed then, Naldir.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for telling me now O_O

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div></div><p>150ish threat for caress line? I take it that your adding the dmge it does onto the threat?</p> <p>As for your group, well if you lost agro in that group I would laugh.  Rangers afik have agro transfer.  Coercers afik have a group agro transfer.  Plent xfer of agro in that group.</p> <p>IHere is something I would like an sk who thinks our agro is fine to eplain to me.</p> <p>Group 70 zerker, 70sk, 57 defiler, 57 zerker.</p> <p>Location: Final lvl 65 named in poets palace (heroic drops dragon scales).</p> <p>Ok so i'm tanking.  Pretty decent geared, masters in all taunts cept Insid Promise.  I pull this named with M2 AE taunt, then hit HT which does 6000K+ dmge, then hit Venomous Slam.  So 1 threat = 1 dmge = 8k threat.</p> <p>Guess what??? The lvl 57 defiler pulled agro 3 sec later, omg I was shocked, she died and i got agro back, only to loose it 2sec later to the zerker.  Afik this mob does not have mem wipe.  </p> <p>Do you know how embarrassed I was, to loose agro to a 57 healer.</p> <p>Time for all you sks that think we are not broken to put your money where your mouth is and explain why on gods green earth this happened.  Taunts were not resisted.</p> <p>Btw, dont even bother posting if you have other grp members transfering agro to u.</p> <p>Plant</p><hr></blockquote>How is an isolated incident which smacks of bugged or suspect game mechanics a good indication of the aggro abilities of a class in question?I would venture that the situation would have not been significantly different whatever class you were.In any case, playing a Defiler, I know I can rack up some pretty good hate if I want to tho.  Good enough that I can even tank sometimes.It is also true that on EQLive lower level characters had inherent "low level" aggro, and evidence suggests that is the case on EQ2 as well.</div>

[Sine]

<div><blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div></div><p>Ok so i'm tanking.  Pretty decent geared, masters in all taunts cept Insid Promise.  I pull this named with M2 AE taunt, then hit HT which does 6000K+ dmge, then hit Venomous Slam.  So 1 threat = 1 dmge = 8k threat.</p> <p>Guess what??? The lvl 57 defiler pulled agro 3 sec later, omg I was shocked, she died and i got agro back, only to loose it 2sec later to the zerker.  Afik this mob does not have mem wipe.  </p><hr></blockquote>While the HT may have the ability to hit for 6K damage, did it actually hit for that much?  Also did the defiler put a ward on you before you pulled?  If so all that damage the ward is keeping off of you is huge aggro off the bat for the defiler.  The high level shamans I have talked to, granted not a lot but some, say that you in general shouldn't put a ward on the tank before the fight for that very same reason. Combine that with he probably landed some huge debuffs right off the bat, means he was racking up some serious aggro.  </div>

[Ultimatum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sineri wrote:<div>While the HT may have the ability to hit for 6K damage, did it actually hit for that much?  Also did the defiler put a ward on you before you pulled?  If so all that damage the ward is keeping off of you is huge aggro off the bat for the defiler.  The high level shamans I have talked to, granted not a lot but some, say that you in general shouldn't put a ward on the tank before the fight for that very same reason. Combine that with he probably landed some huge debuffs right off the bat, means he was racking up some serious aggro.  </div><hr></blockquote>I've critted HT for over 14,500 before, and on raids it would rarely do less than 10k a hit because I always timed it with a Brigand's debuffs, so in short, yeah, I'm sure it hit for 6k as he just said <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sineri wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>Ok so i'm tanking.  Pretty decent geared, masters in all taunts cept Insid Promise.  I pull this named with M2 AE taunt, then hit HT which does 6000K+ dmge, then hit Venomous Slam.  So 1 threat = 1 dmge = 8k threat.</P> <P>Guess what??? The lvl 57 defiler pulled agro 3 sec later, omg I was shocked, she died and i got agro back, only to loose it 2sec later to the zerker.  Afik this mob does not have mem wipe.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>While the HT may have the ability to hit for 6K damage, did it actually hit for that much?  Also did the defiler put a ward on you before you pulled?  If so all that damage the ward is keeping off of you is huge aggro off the bat for the defiler.  The high level shamans I have talked to, granted not a lot but some, say that you in general shouldn't put a ward on the tank before the fight for that very same reason. Combine that with he probably landed some huge debuffs right off the bat, means he was racking up some serious aggro.  <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes 6.2k crit in defensive with 200ish int.  Was not warded.  Its a lvl 65 heroic i dont need warding. 1 dmge = 1hate is a load of bs unless a Dev can prove it.  And yes we do have an agro problem, end of story.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Sokolov]

What you describe, if truthful and consistently reproducible, is not an "aggro problem" so much as broken/bugged/strange game mechanics. It is, therefore, certainly not anything that can be considered to be evidence for the idea that a Shadowknight's aggro ability is inferior to that of other Fighter classes, considering it's specific nature and liklihood for it not to be "working as intended." The taunt alone should have given you aggro if no Wards were pre-applied or left over.  Of course, it is plausible the Ward was applied on the wrong person, or you did not notice.  Additionally, if you are slow on the taunt (or if it was, in fact, resisted despite your claim to the contrary) and the Defiler had already been hit, I've noticed that getting damaged seems to generate some measure of aggro as well. In any case, we have a host of SKs here who know and have tanked raids without aggro problems.  You describe a specific situation designed solely to aid your argument which appears to indicate game mechanic concerns. Sorry, not convinced here. <div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sineri wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>Ok so i'm tanking.  Pretty decent geared, masters in all taunts cept Insid Promise.  I pull this named with M2 AE taunt, then hit HT which does 6000K+ dmge, then hit Venomous Slam.  So 1 threat = 1 dmge = 8k threat.</P> <P>Guess what??? The lvl 57 defiler pulled agro 3 sec later, omg I was shocked, she died and i got agro back, only to loose it 2sec later to the zerker.  Afik this mob does not have mem wipe.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>While the HT may have the ability to hit for 6K damage, did it actually hit for that much?  Also did the defiler put a ward on you before you pulled?  If so all that damage the ward is keeping off of you is huge aggro off the bat for the defiler.  The high level shamans I have talked to, granted not a lot but some, say that you in general shouldn't put a ward on the tank before the fight for that very same reason. Combine that with he probably landed some huge debuffs right off the bat, means he was racking up some serious aggro.  <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes 6.2k crit in defensive with 200ish int.  Was not warded.  Its a lvl 65 heroic i dont need warding. 1 dmge = 1hate is a load of bs unless a Dev can prove it.  And yes we do have an agro problem, end of story.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please, delete your character, go to a bar, grab a beer and get a life. Flamming on the concept that SK's are a broken class because you have one strange occurance with a bug is redicilous. You have yet to ever show valid evidence of anything except your incapability of playing your class. I'm sorry man, but the facts are clear. We can tank WITHOUT agro issues, we can produce some nasty DPS (I've been at the top of the parser before when not tanking), we have utility and we can FREGGING TANK RAIDS. You haven't tried ergo, you don't know if we can actually tank. You allowed those in your guild to destroy your perception of a great class and you come here attempting to destroy our perception. Oh, and to say that a SK can not hold agro in a raid with the raid force producing near 15K DPS is a lie. We didn't even have a trouby and I was holding agro against 14K+ DPS fights. But it's impossible right? ha<BR>