Did we ruin our own reputation?

[Alevyan]

<div></div>I'm a level 70SK equipped with reasonably decent gear (a couple of legendary pieces, some xegonite and some treasured claymores questline rewards.) A handful of masters and adept III'd, mostly my taunts, stances and AOEs, and I hold aggro down exceptionally well(unless I have a monk or a bruiser off-tanking/dpsing, then my life becomes hell.) I'm an efficient tank and often desired by those who I tank for regularly. I don't have much trouble getting groups, but sometimes the stigma follows me.If I remember correctly, when they nerfed our taunts, I think we were the ones who shouted the most about it.. "OH LAWD, THEY NERFED MY TAUNTS, I'M THE WORST TANK _EVER_ NOW." I think we need to go around telling stories about how we pull aggro from Guardians. OH, we also need to tell people about our amazing DPS too.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Alevyan on <span class=date_text>07-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 PM</span>

[Giral]

<DIV>lol you maka me laugh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>agro can be an issue, try this : ) go start telling people how you pull agro off a guardian and your an agro master , and then see if you can hold the agro off them , better yet tell them they Suck and you can hold agro off anybody anytime anyplace : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we don't have some magical great agro all of a sudden, Agro is a mother to work for AND work i do, i can keep it locked down most of the time, if Dp's starts going HOG wild ? you better believe i'm losing agro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what work's best is telling people the Truth , i can and Do hold agro , just start out with Debuff's, and/or low damage attack the first couple second's and then build into your damage and  away we GOoooooooooooo,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also if your level 65 + with alot of Aa's and decent gear this isn't the average SK, think more like level 45 to 60 with ok to decent gear, maybe a master or 2 and a couple adpt 3 and or ALL adept 1's  <<<<------ this is more the average player  IMO  ,  so might not wan't to sceam to loud we hold great agro , when infact we don't, and only Sk's who have realy taken the time to work everything , everyway possible have found ways to control it , These low lvl sk's will get a Very bad Rep as a MT if everyone think's SK's hold Great agro and they can't hold it for Jack when the Dp's starts flyin off the shelf</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>one way to hold agro off a egger Backstabber is to turn the mob a couple times befor you position it , so pull mob , ho tuant get back to group,Turn it,  , when you see the backstabber go to get into position , you quickly Turn  the mob a Little more : ) this throw's them off a sec and allows you to get in 1 more kick,shieldbash,tuant, Maybe even get another Ho started : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but these are thing's that you Need to work at , this isn't like having Snap agro, there is alot more going on for Sk's to find ways to hold agro , and if these forum's are a sign of how many Sk's can and do hold agro i see Alot more post's in here about Sk's having Agro issue's then player's sayin they don't have a problem with it at all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO i hold agro with Blood , Sweat , and Tear's , that's fine by me , but even i admit we need a little little bit of love in the agro department , if for anything else to save us some power usage so we don't go OOP so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] much</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Alevyan]

I think for me the power thing is the biggest issue, we really are power pigs.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alevyan wrote:<BR>I think for me the power thing is the biggest issue, we really are power pigs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>all tanks are...

[Xanoth]

i dont find power a huge issue, yet its mentioned all the time... and most tanks have agro issues if you have DPS going all out on a mob so fast they almost pulled it before you did.we probably did ruin our old reputation, but since the slam line was fixed way before KoS, i dont think life has been that bad.wizards that double buff ice nova or fussion to crit with 25% (or close to that) more damage probably pull agro of every tank other than a pally with amends on them.but i dont think its always other peoples perspective of a SK thats the only thing that needs to change. a lot of people feel that we genuinly are gimped on holding agro. my SK although my main was only created nevomber 2005, he hit 60 the day before KoS came out. before that i've had a guardian and a bruiser, both do have thier own problems, and agro certainly isn't handed to them on a silver plate. but the only time i felt SKs had agro issues while leveling, was when i was pre20 trying to hold agro of a summoner tank pet.but anyway i dont think boasting that we're uber is guna win us any better reuptation. its just inviting people to prove it wrong.

[Beldin_]

I was tanking HoF for the first time yesterday .. we had no wipe, only once a healer dieddue to an AoE of a Zenturio .. our Swashie who normally gets amends when our Pala tanksnever got aggro .. at the end the fury said : you were really great in holding aggro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Since i still see myself as a tank-noob .. because i mostly played DD Classes andsoloed my SK most of the time .. i think that it can't really be such a big problemlike others here often try to make everyone believe.

[Danimal24]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beldin_ wrote:<BR>I was tanking HoF for the first time yesterday .. we had no wipe, only once a healer died<BR>due to an AoE of a Zenturio .. <EM><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>our Swashie who normally gets amends when our Pala tanks<BR>never got aggro</STRONG> </FONT></EM>.. at the end the fury said : you were really great in holding aggro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Since i still see myself as a tank-noob .. because i mostly played DD Classes and<BR>soloed my SK most of the time .. i think that it can't really be such a big problem<BR>like others here often try to make everyone believe.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Swash was giving you (I forget the actual number as I hardly ever group with a swash) 30-ish% of their hate, making your life much easier. Still, great job, not the easiest place to tank.<BR></DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div><div>if Dp's starts going HOG wild ? you better believe i'm losing agro</div> <hr></blockquote>This is true for any tank.</div>

[Beldin_]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danimal24 wrote: <DIV>Swash was giving you (I forget the actual number as I hardly ever group with a swash) 30-ish% of their hate, making your life much easier. Still, great job, not the easiest place to tank.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah .. i know they have a hate transfer .. however even with amends on him he from time to time pulled aggro from our Pala .. so i really think we shine on holding aggro against multiple targets <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Ellestil]

<P>WARNING: Math incoming! May be faulty!</P> <P>Ok just thought of something. Let's say the swash generates 1000 hate (made up number for simplicity). He gives the pali 30%. That leaves 700 hate for the swash. However, the paladin put amends on him to take 40% of the swash's hate (700 left), that's 280. 280+300=580 extra hate for the pali.</P> <P>Now, let's say another dps is in the group with the swashy also doing 1000 hate. If the swashy gave the pali 300 hate, and the pali amended the other dps taking 400, his total extra hate would have been 700. 580 vs 700. And that may be why he lost hate even when amending the swashy. Just a theory.</P> <P>Ellestil</P>

[NosajMa]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ellestil wrote:<div></div> <p>WARNING: Math incoming! May be faulty!</p> <p>Ok just thought of something. Let's say the swash generates 1000 hate (made up number for simplicity). He gives the pali 30%. That leaves 700 hate for the swash. However, the paladin put amends on him to take 40% of the swash's hate (700 left), that's 280. 280+300=580 extra hate for the pali.</p> <p>Now, let's say another dps is in the group with the swashy also doing 1000 hate. If the swashy gave the pali 300 hate, and the pali amended the other dps taking 400, his total extra hate would have been 700. 580 vs 700. And that may be why he lost hate even when amending the swashy. Just a theory.</p> <p>Ellestil</p><hr></blockquote>Swashie agro transfer and Amends don't stack.  That's why he pulled agro in that setup.Agro transfer on the pally and Amends on a different dps would work just fine though.</div>

[Giral]

<DIV>here's another theory ,  some player's have gotten more exposure to Sk's as Tank's and have been told, or found out themselves how to group with an SK MT ,  this is most obvious in the post's that say " I Group with my guildies all the time and never lose agro " or ,  "  i play with friend's alot and never have issue's with them and agro and 1 is a Wizzy "  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's the pick up group's And the player's that don't like SK's as MT's that realy can make a Sk look bad if the Sk isn't controling the group ,  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's also the Dp's fiend's and the Player's that LOVE stealing agro that can also make a SK look very bad </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YES i know ALL tank's loss Agro : P but this thread isn't about ALL TANK'S so go sit on your finger </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes ALL tank's BURN power, again this thread wasn't about ALL tank's, but in response , Anyway , Not as bad as SK's do , when i'm consuming the Best regain Drink, and Totem of the beholder, and i have Groupie's, askin if i need a drink, or a Totem ?  <---------- this is when you know you have a power issue : )  and i get asked that in almost every pick up group i tank for  , yes it is that bad , i don't rember ever being grouped with any of my alt's or my Main with a guard/zerker/pally as MT and having to ask them if they needed a Drink or totem, unless it was Very obvious they actually need one <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , and in my case it Looks like i need Drink and Totem , when in fact im using BOTH already always : ( </DIV> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>07-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

[Beldin_]

<P>When i play my Ranger and our Bersi is tanking, i have to ask him each time if he has something to drink <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And to the Swashie Problem .. i think it is that we can much better hold aggro against Groups of mobs because of our AoEs and caress .. if you ever have also played a monk you will know what the difference in holding aggro against groups <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Diern]

<DIV>remember they did recenty improve taunts across the board as well as our shield bash line. Its not so bad now but before then it was abysmal</DIV>

[DwarvesR]

<P>I was tanking in RE the other day, with a necro, monk (mentored down from 70, has almost 50 aa's and is spec'd for max dps, also has quite a few M1 skills), wizard (twinked with all Ad3 spells), and mystic in the group.  No hate buffs or transfers.</P> <P>I have pre-LU24 ebon armor, and a legendary blade from level 30 that I really ought to replace.  Average to sub-standard jewelry, a decent shield, and all my skills are Adept 1, with the occasional App4.  No Ad3's. no M1's.</P> <P>The monk could pull aggro from me on any 1 mob in a group, but couldn't get the rest of the group from me.  He could always pull aggro on a ^^^ if he wanted it.  He mostly just offtanked and picked up adds if I wasn't quick enough.  The wizard pulled aggro 1x, and it was early on when he deliberately tried to pull it to see "how far he could go."  Once he knew, he never pulled aggro again.   Necro lost his mage pet once in a 3-encounter situation where he got targeted on the wrong group.  Mystic never got aggro.</P> <P>We did well, overall.  I was much impressed with the wizard.  I'd grouped with him in the mid-20's while on my zerk, and I felt like I was fighting him for aggro more than I was tanking the mobs in that group, and the zerk has M1 taunts, Ad3 taunt-proc defense, and several Ad3 skills.  But with the SK, never once felt like there was a problem.</P> <P>Overall, I thought we all did fine, didn't feel like I was having any trouble as MT.  I never have felt it's been bad, really, and so I've often wondered at the complaints I see so often on the boards here.  Of course, when I mention that I'm only in my 40's, I usually get dismissed as a lowbie and told that the problems don't really show up until level 54 or so. . . .  I'll get there eventually I suppose.  My SK isn't my main, so it will be a while before it happens.</P>

[Genag]

IMO it is almost practically impossible to compare tank class ability to hold aggro - there is a lot of variables: playing skills, spell qualities, AA, hate buffer in group and EQUIPMENT. For SK I see three major problems:- The best aa ability for increasing ability to hold aggro is spell crits in INT line. IMO 8 points spent in this ability is necessity for every SK- For holding aggro we need decent INT (remeber that 1hate~1dmg)- Do not underestimate good weapon. I did this mistake so I did not want to spend DKP points for good weapon because I thought I need to save them for armor or other pieces of jeewelry - but once upon a time I was forced to bid Scepter of Doom Sworn (every other player in raid already get this weapon or similar so I bided for it beacause I did not want let this item be trashed) - and difference in ability to hold aggro in comparision to prisma 2 sword or T7 legendary weapons was evident.- masters seems to me ATM on the last part of the list. I get around 20 masters on lvl 70 (of course every single spell that have hate in its description I had on master quality). with str line, low int and prisma2 sword my ability to keep aggro was terrible. Changing same setup to INT line, better weapon and increasing int on equipment for around 100+ in comparision to previous equipment allowed to me to hold aggro on raids in very usefull way.<div></div>I hope that this experience can help other SK.GL all

[Beldin_]

Hehe .. maybe one reason that i never noticed aggro problem is also that i mostly play with a fury, and often also a wizzy .. and so often have over 400 int even in defensive stance <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Kryptonix]

<div></div>Yesterday was the first time I tanked HoF too. Was SK(me), Pally, Necro, Templar, Wizzie, and a Ranger. Pally tanked up until the first named, we wiped 4 times, he got all mad and said "Make the SK tank." At first I was hesitant, because if a Pally is losing agro with Amends, good chance I may too. I also had less HP less power and less MIT then the pally had. As soon as I started tanking it was all good rarely lost agro to any of the DPS classes, I lost it to the Pally, but he was using a 2 hander with a sick proc and I think he still had ammends on one of the DPS classes, we almost wiped once (named that you had to revive). Not to take anything from the Pally, I have grouped with him before and hes a good tank. Most of the times I lost agro to the pally, it was on a single mob. Grouped mobs I can lock agro better (I have adept 3 AEs, Master 2 AE taunt, master 1 Single target taunt). I have other adept 3s... 2 buffs, and 2 spells (Coil and Wrath). EDIT: I also have to give credit to the Templar that was with us, he has a lvl 70 gaurd alt, he gave me advice on where to stand when I pulled a named mob.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Kryptonix on <span class=date_text>07-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:25 AM</span>

[Beldin_]

Loose aggro to a pally ? :smileysurprised: Hm.. must really be the combination of that he still used amends on a DD and maybe used also his big heals on you, since you only had one "real" healer in the party, i doubt it was due to the üb0r-DPS of the Pala <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kryptonix]

Yeh Maybe, I found it odd I lost agro more to the Pally then I did any of ther other DPS classes. Maybe it was amends and his healing, but I never lost agro to the healer. Maybe he threw in a taunt in here and there in case I did lose agro to the DPS. <div></div>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kryptonix wrote:<BR>Maybe it was amends and his healing, but I never lost agro to the healer. Maybe he threw in a taunt in here and there in case I did lose agro to the DPS. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The other reason is .. like we have disease debuff on our group-taunt .. pally have devine debuff i think .. so also for that reason i use my group taunt from time to time when i'm not tanking <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Alevyan]

After going down the INT & CRIT line I felt that my damage was pretty epic(I've outparsed brigands on good runs.) I'm certainly able to hold aggro down, and if I can get a good healer or two- I can tank in offensive mode, which ultimately means that as long as I'm alive, I'm not losing aggro.<div></div>