Any SKs that tank raids?

[Agamemno]

The guild is facing losing our only guardian soon. Me being the second highest level fighter after him and the bruiser ditch us am a little concerned about my guilds raiding future. Is there a chance that an SK can tank end-game type epic content?I was told tonight by a person who invited me to an XP group that had a 55 zerker (same level as me) that not only would I not be tanking in the group, but that I wouldn't be wanted for any form of tanking end game, even off-tank! This jackhole said all he wanted for was to put my farking gift of armament on (get this) "The real tank".So is this the future I have to look forward to? No more MT? Can this be true? Why is it that we're the only fighter that has been deemed "unworthy" of the MT spot by the masses? And moreover, are they wrong? Has there been a dev response stating we're to be a utility or DPS fighter only? Is there a way to prove them wrong and MT the big stuff as an SK?Problem is, I really enjoy my SK, and I really enjoy MTing. I picked him on the pvp server for copious reasons over the other fighter classes. I'm hoping that there are some of you who DO MT on raids to clear up this question for me.Thanks.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<P>SKs can tank raids...  warriors have inheriant advantages over crusaders that are most apparent when your guild is fist gearing up and learing how to raid...  once gearedup there really isn't much difference between plate tanks...  alot of what you'll have to overcome is the stigma SKs have that they aren't raid tanks...</P>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<DIV>dont worry, SK dont have much trouble tanking the biggest problem is convincing others who dont understand our class to let us tank in the first place, once in the tank spot we do fine. couple things to look out for is our aggro takes a couple seconds more to build at the beginning of a fight. however once we get rolling we hold it like champs. out hp is a little lowerr than guardians so sometimes people who look at just the numbers might think we are lacking. i highly suggest building up the str tree primarily for the aggro boosting ability if you plan to MT. its not the end all/be all of aa but it really has helped mee lock in aggro. that in mind int tree for spell crits will help aggro as well i use both with some other utility thrown in. main thing is show them your skill as a player and learn what it takes to hold aggro from different classes. you can be a viable tank just gotta put in the same focus that guards do. lay of the solo build and focus on group/raid builds. oh yeah dont forget to keep your int high it will help alot with aggro more than strength many will say.</DIV>

[Agamemno]

Whats your take on the stamina line? Divine aura appears like it would be absolutely invaluable for tanking. Am wondering if anyone actually got to the end of the stam line, and what where your impressions of it. I wonder if there's enough available AAs to get the haste from str line, and spell crits maxed from int, and still reach the end of the stamina line guess I'll have to do a count today and see what I come up with.<div></div>

[Xanoth]

<DIV>Divine Aura is nice, but i dont think its invaluble for raids. i only really use it for unexpected guests. its only real use is to buy time for the all the healers to react to that fact that your taking damage. if your a MT this shouldn't be needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>although i think the max health bonus from the STA line is very useful in helping us to get the HP of a warrior, as a 4% increase on 11-12k is a pretty nice bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is something to be gained from all the AA lines, it really depends on what you feel your missing, at the moment i prefer divine aura, to anything else available, as its handy for intercepting adds or saving manic DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for getting everything...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>maxing spell crits costs 16 points, getting divine arua costs 24, concenter requires 1, so you then have 9 free, so if you wanted anything from the str line you'd only be able to get 4-4-1 or probably better off going 4-5, to make better use of what you have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>personaly i'm STA 4-4-8-8-1, Int 5-4-8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i still need to juggle a lot of gear about depending on if im trying to tank or dps, but i can get away with reasonable results from just putting haste item on and switching to 2h+offencive... which i really need a new hotbar for, so its easier to equp tanking and DPS gear... mebies a hotbar each.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im still not sure if spell crits are that useful for holding agro on raids though...</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV><-----Is a raid tank and I see not much disparity between the plate tanks honestly =/. With the right raid set up, you can actually replicate the warriors temp MIT buffs but yes, gear will have a lot to do with it =/. I agree with the STA and INT set up. I am trying this now as a friend of mine and I spoke about this set up and he wanted to see it in action. =D My old set up, which worked well for agro management was:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR: 4/4/4/8 INT: 4/4/8 and then the rest were in stats because I was lacking in those due to gear. =/ We make fine tanks but there is a problem with even SK's listening to the hype that we're not tanks and actually believing it. If your guardian leaves, step up to bat and see how you preform. Just remember, dirge/coercer is your best friend for their hate buff =D.</DIV>

[Kharz]

<P>           SKs can totally tank raid material!</P> <P>               My guild might be an oddity but our tanks are a Guardian, 2 other high lvl Sks and then my little lvl 50 SK. We did a run of raids last night mainly T6 and a few T5 with our SKs tanking, Not one wipe, we got some nice legendary drops and breezed through em. We aren't quite up to T7 raiding yet, but I have every confidence that Sks can tank those as well. We have a ton of high dps classes as well in our guild, namely Conj and Wizards. Not once did the MT lose aggro. Mind you we have been raiding together since EQ1 and use vent, but point being SKs rock. (^_^)</P>

[Dogm]

<DIV>Yes we can tank raids just fine.  It's just that a Warrior can do it better and with less effort. The only problem you may run into is controlling out of encounter adds.</DIV> <DIV><BR>(PS raiding is killing named not just Trash mobs in Labs as some seem to think)</DIV>

[Kabil]

My guild has our SK tank all the time.  We have 2 guardians in the guild but one of them has a Brigand as a main .. so his guardian got put on backup.  We always have the guardian tank but when hes not around we have the Zerkers / Paladins / SK's tank.  Some of them better than others but other than that most plate tanks can handle about the same.Like said above , getting everyone over the fact that your an SK is the hard part.  Plate tanks pretty much work the same but each one has their bonus's to their class that others dont have <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

ive tanked a few times for AllureThe below figures are not accurate just a faint recollection.without a coercer, holding aggro is almost impossible.i tanked with the wisdom and int line of AA's and was probably 2k short of our guardians health, i quickly respeced to str and stam line and was prolly about 1k less healthAs for mitt we have no burst buffs, and even with full fabled im still 1k lower around 6.5k, and without the added mitt when it counts in difficult situations we really do struggle as MT'sof course my character isnt totally geared towards tanking, im sort of a mix of both dps and tankage. i just change armour and items to suit the need.when our MT dies or looses aggro, we have a few tanks there to pick up the mobs, im one of those, but if a healer doesnt get onto me quick im screwed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />i wouldnt say my sk configuration is the best tank, but overall im happy with him, what i would like to see is the SK's bringing more to a raidDeath marth should be raid wide (or at least proc for any groups kill), maybe that and pestilence last a bit longeroh after respecing to STR and STAM i didnt like it and changed back to WIS and INT AA's<p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span><p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 AM</span>

[Giral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Agamemnoch wrote:<BR>The guild is facing losing our only guardian soon. Me being the second highest level fighter after him and the bruiser ditch us am a little concerned about my guilds raiding future. Is there a chance that an SK can tank end-game type epic content?<BR><BR>I was told tonight by a person who invited me to an XP group that had a 55 zerker (same level as me) that not only would I not be tanking in the group, but that I wouldn't be wanted for any form of tanking end game, even off-tank! This jackhole said all he wanted for was to put my farking gift of armament on (get this) "The real tank".<BR><BR>So is this the future I have to look forward to? No more MT? Can this be true? Why is it that we're the only fighter that has been deemed "unworthy" of the MT spot by the masses? And moreover, are they wrong? Has there been a dev response stating we're to be a utility or DPS fighter only? Is there a way to prove them wrong and MT the big stuff as an SK?<BR><BR>Problem is, I really enjoy my SK, and I really enjoy MTing. I picked him on the pvp server for copious reasons over the other fighter classes. I'm hoping that there are some of you who DO MT on raids to clear up this question for me.<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>IMO , you should have Fd'ed the Jackhole who told you that you aren't a real tank , then /laughed at the Zerker and then left the group  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>What level are you ? would assume your atleast 50+ and that you have tanked befor ? what are your feeling's on how you tank? do you think your capable of Raid tanking ? </P> <P>do you feel inferior to a zerker? do you think a zerker is a better tank? a guard ? </P> <P>do you think that if you do everything possible in a MT raid position that you would fail becuase it say's SK next to your name and not Guardian ? </P> <P>there is a  % of the player base that is Highly biased ( would say classist <--new word for racist in eq2 : ) , these are the player's that have played from game release OR are serious # cruncher's , they look down on anything but the ultimate max set up ,and still have a special little place in thier hearts for guardians <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> as the # 1 MT becuase soe released the game and guardians were way Over powered </P> <P> so say you have a Guardian and a SK both tank the same named and the sk tanking does a better job they will still say that the guardian is still a much better choice becuase of the Stat's and Number's , these type of player's are stuck in thier own realm of denial and they will never admit anything else because to do so would be to admit that they were wrong : ) </P> <P>Number's and stat's acount for eveything working by the book , sk's don't go by the book, we do it diffrently, say our life tap compared to Base HP's ? you can't get an Accurate # from Sk , but the guardian's is easy to calculate it's all right there to be written down and tallied Up = easier to know exactly what your dealing with ,</P> <P> so when they say a Real tank they are talking about the easiest tank to know what they do and how they do it, they aren't talking about skill, playstyle, gear,level,master's  etc,,,,,,, they are basicly making a fool of themselves , </P> <P>what would you chose to use as a tank? a higher level better geared Sk or a lower lvl crappy geared zerker? i myself would try the SK first to see if player skill matched the higher lvl and better gear if not i would then try the zerker as he might be a kick azz tank but just be unfortunate in that he has very limited play time and in a crappy guild and has No luck on drop's : ) </P> <P>As said SK's can and do MT Raid's and Raid named's, if your looking for teh uber elite ultimate raid set up then go with the easy method use a guardian <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, they do it easier, but by no means Better Vs an equal Skilled / Geared SK .   Not everyone play's eq2 to do Everything the easiest way possible and make everything as unchallenging as possible , sure it;s a little more work to use and Sk as MT in a Raid , but then again it's twice as rewarding when you pull it off ,     what's more rewarding doing the Possible OR pulling of the impossible ? i would wholeheartedly say IMO doing the impossible get's me Aroused , doing the Possible makes me Bored :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>   </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. Sk's befor Revamp , had Mt'ed everthing in the game , this was with totally broken skill lines, the Guardian lover's back then when hearing and seeing pictures of Sk's MTing the endgame content called "Sk's" that Guild's charity case and it would have been SO much easier with a guardian ,           did they say Wow great job , Amazing , how'd you do it ?   NOPE they smash,trashtalk, and put these player's down for not doing it THier Way, not doing it BY the number's , in thier mind's someone had done something they Did but accomplished it in a Harder way , who's to say it was Harder ?           those biased people, becuase thier Number's don't lie, but when it comes to SK's those number's DO lie or else thier is no way a SK could possibly have done it and ONLY a guardian as MT should have been able to do it,            this should tell you that it's possible but frowned apon as not the easiest or right way to do it , but in all actuallity it can be done and your reward's will be "doing it your own way, doing the supposed Impossible, and being individual," sure you can be just another raid guild with a guard/zerk  MT but what's fun and exciting about that ?  </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S.S. your in a position Many Sk's wish they were in lol , alot of sk's cant get into a raiding guild, or even get to MA on raid's, if i was in your position [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] straight i would step up to the MT position : )</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes we can tank raids just fine.  It's just that a Warrior can do it better and with less effort. The only problem you may run into is controlling out of encounter adds.</DIV> <DIV><BR>(PS raiding is killing named not just Trash mobs in Labs as some seem to think)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For the record, I tank named. Just in case this was directed at me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Mmaster]

I dont care much for divine aura, but I tried stamina just for the extra max HP, didnt give much so I went back to the spell crits. I always have the wisdom line, thats a must. <div></div>

[Agamemno]

<div>Yeah I left the group and basically added him to my "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" list. I think I do o.k. on heroic stuff, depends on /con of course. I'm 56 now with just cobalt trash for gear and the fabled BP from sol eye. I do feel inferior to guardian tanks, but then... shouldn't i? I mean they lack the utility and general all around prowess and flexibility right? I suspect once I get some real gear and finish massagin my AAs it'll be all good. Tap veins is positively uber though =PI've been tanking groups for all of my 56 levels, I MA'd MG and did just fine and at the time the stuff was white/yellow to me (guard took the named and I handled his lil healer dudes. Tanked some of the lil epics in a 1 group suicide event in clefts. that was pretty fun. The mob had i think 4 levels on me and we almost got him with one group heh.<blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr></blockquote><p>IMO , you should have Fd'ed the Jackhole who told you that you aren't a real tank , then /laughed at the Zerker and then left the group  :smileyvery-happy:</p> <p>What level are you ? would assume your atleast 50+ and that you have tanked befor ? what are your feeling's on how you tank? do you think your capable of Raid tanking ? </p> <p>do you feel inferior to a zerker? do you think a zerker is a better tank? a guard ? </p> <p>do you think that if you do everything possible in a MT raid position that you would fail becuase it say's SK next to your name and not Guardian ? </p> <p>there is a  % of the player base that is Highly biased ( would say classist <--new word for racist in eq2 : ) , these are the player's that have played from game release OR are serious # cruncher's , they look down on anything but the ultimate max set up ,and still have a special little place in thier hearts for guardians <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> as the # 1 MT becuase soe released the game and guardians were way Over powered </p> <p> so say you have a Guardian and a SK both tank the same named and the sk tanking does a better job they will still say that the guardian is still a much better choice becuase of the Stat's and Number's , these type of player's are stuck in thier own realm of denial and they will never admit anything else because to do so would be to admit that they were wrong : ) </p> <p>Number's and stat's acount for eveything working by the book , sk's don't go by the book, we do it diffrently, say our life tap compared to Base HP's ? you can't get an Accurate # from Sk , but the guardian's is easy to calculate it's all right there to be written down and tallied Up = easier to know exactly what your dealing with ,</p> <p> so when they say a Real tank they are talking about the easiest tank to know what they do and how they do it, they aren't talking about skill, playstyle, gear,level,master's  etc,,,,,,, they are basicly making a fool of themselves , </p> <p>what would you chose to use as a tank? a higher level better geared Sk or a lower lvl crappy geared zerker? i myself would try the SK first to see if player skill matched the higher lvl and better gear if not i would then try the zerker as he might be a kick azz tank but just be unfortunate in that he has very limited play time and in a crappy guild and has No luck on drop's : ) </p> <p>As said SK's can and do MT Raid's and Raid named's, if your looking for teh uber elite ultimate raid set up then go with the easy method use a guardian <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, they do it easier, but by no means Better Vs an equal Skilled / Geared SK .   Not everyone play's eq2 to do Everything the easiest way possible and make everything as unchallenging as possible , sure it;s a little more work to use and Sk as MT in a Raid , but then again it's twice as rewarding when you pull it off ,     what's more rewarding doing the Possible OR pulling of the impossible ? i would wholeheartedly say IMO doing the impossible get's me Aroused , doing the Possible makes me Bored :smileyvery-happy:</p> <p>   </p> <p>P.S. Sk's befor Revamp , had Mt'ed everthing in the game , this was with totally broken skill lines, the Guardian lover's back then when hearing and seeing pictures of Sk's MTing the endgame content called "Sk's" that Guild's charity case and it would have been SO much easier with a guardian ,           did they say Wow great job , Amazing , how'd you do it ?   NOPE they smash,trashtalk, and put these player's down for not doing it THier Way, not doing it BY the number's , in thier mind's someone had done something they Did but accomplished it in a Harder way , who's to say it was Harder ?           those biased people, becuase thier Number's don't lie, but when it comes to SK's those number's DO lie or else thier is no way a SK could possibly have done it and ONLY a guardian as MT should have been able to do it,            this should tell you that it's possible but frowned apon as not the easiest or right way to do it , but in all actuallity it can be done and your reward's will be "doing it your own way, doing the supposed Impossible, and being individual," sure you can be just another raid guild with a guard/zerk  MT but what's fun and exciting about that ?  </p> <p>P.S.S. your in a position Many Sk's wish they were in lol , alot of sk's cant get into a raiding guild, or even get to MA on raid's, if i was in your position [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] straight i would step up to the MT position : )</p> <p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class="date_text">06-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:33 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Ellestil]

<P>What's the ideal MT group set up if a SK is the MT? I saw coercer mentioned. Any other classes?</P> <P> </P> <P>Ellestil</P>

[Giral]

<P>i remember back at the release of the game in a couple group's like in FG , we had me SK and a Guardian in the group , when grouped asked who is going to MT < i said i will but it don't matter to me , and the Gaurdian said " my roll is to protect the group and back up the Tank " and i did remember reading about guardians in the character discription's and that was what thier discription implied , protect the group , aid in assisting other's , wear the heaviest armor and shields to defend the group , </P> <P>the thing is is that SOE gave guardians a Bunch of tool's to assist Other tank's,  the player's in turn took these abilities and utilized them on the group instead of on another tank,   so IMO , a Guardian was ment to Tank equally as other tank's BUT be the Best MA ,    i can say at release there wasn't a Boat load of guardians , not many wanted to be a walking metal box , with low damage ,  it wasn't until player's started hitting higher level content and Raid content that it became apparent that guardian's tool's and Stat's worked Best with him as MT and not equal with him as MT ,  </P> <P>i would like to talk to a Dev : ) and find out if this is the truth , that Guardian's instead of doing DP's could get a group with another as MT becuase they could bring Alot of protection to the group and the MT or they Could MT themselves but not bring the Dp's or heals etc that other tanks could when MT'ing   .  i have heard of guardians still complaining till this day that they get a Bunch of skill's that make Other Mt's even better , </P> <P>IMO guardians make the Best MA's , they have the HP's and MIT to takeover   IF  thing's go Bad ,   all the other Tank's bring more to the MT position , except HP </P> <P> </P> <P>who made Guardians the # 1 MT in the game? not the Dev's , the Player's themselves made Guardian's the # 1 MT becuase they found out that a guardian could be buffed to invulnerable, that was a Flaw in the design itself,   Dev's have stated since release ALL Tanks should Tank equally , but different;y   </P> <P> </P> <P>also i think Guardian's once agian got a little over loving with AA's , why ? becuase SOE Messed up and RUSHEd AA's and gave them to our SUbclasses and not our Individual classes ,   it's very easy to see what ever DEV is behind Zerker's currently gives them all the best tool's , and IMO the guardian wound up benifiting from this by Accident      and when you take a LOOK at Crusader AA's compared to a Zerker's ??????   the only real choice is to take the INTell for DP"S , wisdom for resists and buff's and then whatever left over go Sta, or Str , once again Crusader;s  have to Spread tehmselves thin , with Stats and AA's  </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>07-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellestil wrote:<BR> <P>What's the ideal MT group set up if a SK is the MT? I saw coercer mentioned. Any other classes?</P> <P> </P> <P>Ellestil</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My usual group runs like this:</P> <P>Me, Coercer, Warden, Templar, Defiler and depending on the mob either a Fury (for urchin) or a MIT buffing class such as another crusader, guardian (for a temp group MIT buff) or conjy. </P> <P>Hope this helps ya =D.</P> <P> </P>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <P>i remember back at the release of the game in a couple group's like in FG , we had me SK and a Guardian in the group , when grouped asked who is going to MT < i said i will but it don't matter to me , and the Gaurdian said " my roll is to protect the group and back up the Tank " and i did remember reading about guardians in the character discription's and that was what thier discription implied , protect the group , aid in assisting other's , wear the heaviest armor and shields to defend the group , </P> <P>the thing is is that SOE gave guardians a Bunch of tool's to assist Other tank's,  the player's in turn took these abilities and utilized them on the group instead of on another tank,   so IMO , a Guardian was ment to Tank equally as other tank's BUT be the Best MA ,    i can say at release there wasn't a Boat load of guardians , not many wanted to be a walking metal box , with low damage ,  it wasn't until player's started hitting higher level content and Raid content that it became apparent that guardian's tool's and Stat's worked Best with him as MT and not equal with him as MT ,  </P> <P>i would like to talk to a Dev : ) and find out if this is the truth , that Guardian's instead of doing DP's could get a group with another as MT becuase they could bring Alot of protection to the group and the MT or they Could MT themselves but not bring the Dp's or heals etc that other tanks could when MT'ing   .  i have heard of guardians still complaining till this day that they get a Bunch of skill's that make Other Mt's even better , </P> <P>IMO guardians make the Best MA's , they have the HP's and MIT to takeover   IF  thing's go Bad ,   all the other Tank's bring more to the MT position , except HP </P> <P> </P> <P>who made Guardians the # 1 MT in the game? not the Dev's , the Player's themselves made Guardian's the # 1 MT becuase they found out that a guardian could be buffed to invulnerable, that was a Flaw in the design itself,   Dev's have stated since release ALL Tanks should Tank equally , but different;y   </P> <P> </P> <P>also i think Guardian's once agian got a little over loving with AA's , why ? becuase SOE Messed up and RUSHEd AA's and gave them to our SUbclasses and not our Individual classes ,   it's very easy to see what ever DEV is behind Zerker's currently gives them all the best tool's , and IMO the guardian wound up benifiting from this by Accident      and when you take a LOOK at Crusader AA's compared to a Zerker's ??????   the only real choice is to take the INTell for DP"S , wisdom for resists and buff's and then whatever left over go Sta, or Str , once again Crusader;s  have to Spread tehmselves thin , with Stats and AA's  </P> <P>Message Edited by Giralus on <SPAN class=date_text>07-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I honestly don't believe that it so much of the tools of the class as any tank can truly be buffed to be invonurable if you place the classes in the right spots. I honestly believe that it's more of ppl being used to the concept of the "Holy Trinity" of EQ1 and attempting to bring it to a game where the mechanics are much different and the classes have greater capabilities. You can have a completly fabled out guardian with all master spells and if someone doesn't know how to play their class, a crusader with adept 3's and some legendary gear will out tank him/her easily bring up the fact that a lot of the basis of the classes is still based on more player skill than class itself. /shrug Just my opinion

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <P>i remember back at the release of the game in a couple group's like in FG , we had me SK and a Guardian in the group , when grouped asked who is going to MT < i said i will but it don't matter to me , and the Gaurdian said " my roll is to protect the group and back up the Tank " and i did remember reading about guardians in the character discription's and that was what thier discription implied , protect the group , aid in assisting other's , wear the heaviest armor and shields to defend the group ,</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>the descriptons of the classes from the release are fluff, guards have tried to hold the devs to them in the past and that was our responce from them...</FONT></P> <P>the thing is is that SOE gave guardians a Bunch of tool's to assist Other tank's,  the player's in turn took these abilities and utilized them on the group instead of on another tank,   so IMO , a Guardian was ment to Tank equally as other tank's BUT be the Best MA ,    i can say at release there wasn't a Boat load of guardians , not many wanted to be a walking metal box , with low damage ,  it wasn't until player's started hitting higher level content and Raid content that it became apparent that guardian's tool's and Stat's worked Best with him as MT and not equal with him as MT , </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>LU13 changed that...  t5 guards took buffs really well, it was a broken game mechanic that got fixed, in t6 guards were honestly no fun to play, we were a medoicer tank class...  even swashys could tank in a group setting better than guards could...  </FONT></P> <P>i would like to talk to a Dev : ) and find out if this is the truth , that Guardian's instead of doing DP's could get a group with another as MT becuase they could bring Alot of protection to the group and the MT or they Could MT themselves but not bring the Dp's or heals etc that other tanks could when MT'ing   .  i have heard of guardians still complaining till this day that they get a Bunch of skill's that make Other Mt's even better ,</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>the only protection things guards can really offer to another tank is interecede and the avoidance check buff (all tanks get these)...  they changed our other intervene abilitys to priest/mage only...  all guards can really offer is our group buffs...  but at that point why bother having 2 tanks at all???</FONT></P> <P>IMO guardians make the Best MA's , they have the HP's and MIT to takeover   IF  thing's go Bad ,   all the other Tank's bring more to the MT position , except HP</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>guards have more tools at their disposal to keep themselves alive, zerkers and paly's have better maintained agro as an offset this...  </FONT></P> <P>who made Guardians the # 1 MT in the game? not the Dev's , the Player's themselves made Guardian's the # 1 MT becuase they found out that a guardian could be buffed to invulnerable, that was a Flaw in the design itself,   Dev's have stated since release ALL Tanks should Tank equally , but different;y  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>all tanks tank heroic content equally...  guards might have a slight edge in epic content, but any plate tank can be raid MT without issues...  so for 5% of the game guards comeout ahead of the rest of the tanks by a very slim margin...  yet soloing and grouping we're middle of the road at best...  lowest dps + no sort of incombat heal/regen...</FONT></P> <P>also i think Guardian's once agian got a little over loving with AA's , why ? becuase SOE Messed up and RUSHEd AA's and gave them to our SUbclasses and not our Individual classes ,   it's very easy to see what ever DEV is behind Zerker's currently gives them all the best tool's , and IMO the guardian wound up benifiting from this by Accident      and when you take a LOOK at Crusader AA's compared to a Zerker's ??????   the only real choice is to take the INTell for DP"S , wisdom for resists and buff's and then whatever left over go Sta, or Str , once again Crusader;s  have to Spread tehmselves thin , with Stats and AA's </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>actully its the zerkers that benifit from the AAs way more than guards...  if you look at most of the AA lines they look good on paper but in practice are really nothing special...  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>wis line gives 19% dps buff and 314 mita, and melle mit debuff with sever restictions on it (ie not useable on raids and requires a hammer/mace)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>str line gives 22% crit chance and 10% hate gain...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>sta line requires a buckler to be used, it gives 72% double attack, and a loss in avoidance (not to mention the loss in mita from a good tower/kite shield)...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>agi gives defence (which i'm already capped on), a 12 sec parry ability (but i'm just standing there for 12 secs, not even auto attack going off), and chance to frontal on my auto attack</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>int gives haste, parry and a faster reuse timer...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>guards have no procing stances or abilities, this is where the zekrer comes out ahead from the AAs...  add their class procs to the frontal attack, the haste, or the crit chance at it pushes their dps threw the roof...  guards benifit some from them but its not anywhere near the extent of that the zerker gets...</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>as i've said in the past a plate tank is a plate tank...  they can all tank raids without any issues...  but to say guards are a more of a buffbot roll is false, its a waist of a MT group spot if another tank is already MT...  there are so few encounters that need an OT (maybe 4 total between all the instances, and 3 for contesteds)...  and of all the encounters you don't need a guardian...  that seems balanced to me...  in t5 you really did need a guardian as MT...</P> <P>if the MT goes down we usually call wipe right then, there are very few encounters that need more than 6 healers so that all we take...  i'll die before the MT will if i'm not tanking (either with intercedes or pulling agro and taking a couple hit while the MT gets back green)...  thats my roll though, if i'm not MT i'm expendable...</P> <P>the best raid MT class right now imo is the zerker, more dps, and alot more AE agro...  they have a little less HP, the same mita, with AAs the make up the defence the guards have over them inherantly...  guards are just the safest choice for MT when just starting out raiding, or trying a new zone...</P> <P>i still think the antifear line is a must for crusader tanks...  it makes zones like HoS so much easier with a crusader tanking..  no mobs shifting into walls or frontaling the melee dps...  just getting into venny's room and setup in our pull spot makes it worth it to me...</P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellestil wrote:<BR> <P>What's the ideal MT group set up if a SK is the MT? I saw coercer mentioned. Any other classes?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>for SK i'll setup templar, fury, defiler, coercer, dirge idealy...  warden works too, but fury buffs int so nice and agitate helps with the melee dps...  helps out alot with agro...  theres alot of stonekin procs there too...</P>

[Xanoth]

<blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<BR><P><BR>for SK i'll setup templar, fury, defiler, coercer, dirge idealy...  warden works too, but fury buffs int so nice and agitate helps with the melee dps...  helps out alot with agro...  theres alot of stonekin procs there too...</P><hr></blockquote>same set up i'd have suggested and often get. although usually have a second tank rather than a fury... i'd rather have a fury <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Giral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <P>i remember back at the release of the game in a couple group's like in FG , we had me SK and a Guardian in the group , when grouped asked who is going to MT < i said i will but it don't matter to me , and the Gaurdian said " my roll is to protect the group and back up the Tank " and i did remember reading about guardians in the character discription's and that was what thier discription implied , protect the group , aid in assisting other's , wear the heaviest armor and shields to defend the group ,</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>the descriptons of the classes from the release are fluff, guards have tried to hold the devs to them in the past and that was our responce from them...</FONT></P> <P>the thing is is that SOE gave guardians a Bunch of tool's to assist Other tank's,  the player's in turn took these abilities and utilized them on the group instead of on another tank,   so IMO , a Guardian was ment to Tank equally as other tank's BUT be the Best MA ,    i can say at release there wasn't a Boat load of guardians , not many wanted to be a walking metal box , with low damage ,  it wasn't until player's started hitting higher level content and Raid content that it became apparent that guardian's tool's and Stat's worked Best with him as MT and not equal with him as MT , </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>LU13 changed that...  t5 guards took buffs really well, it was a broken game mechanic that got fixed, in t6 guards were honestly no fun to play, we were a medoicer tank class...  even swashys could tank in a group setting better than guards could...  </FONT></P> <P>i would like to talk to a Dev : ) and find out if this is the truth , that Guardian's instead of doing DP's could get a group with another as MT becuase they could bring Alot of protection to the group and the MT or they Could MT themselves but not bring the Dp's or heals etc that other tanks could when MT'ing   .  i have heard of guardians still complaining till this day that they get a Bunch of skill's that make Other Mt's even better ,</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>the only protection things guards can really offer to another tank is interecede and the avoidance check buff (all tanks get these)...  they changed our other intervene abilitys to priest/mage only...  all guards can really offer is our group buffs...  but at that point why bother having 2 tanks at all???</FONT></P> <P>IMO guardians make the Best MA's , they have the HP's and MIT to takeover   IF  thing's go Bad ,   all the other Tank's bring more to the MT position , except HP</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>guards have more tools at their disposal to keep themselves alive, zerkers and paly's have better maintained agro as an offset this...  </FONT></P> <P>who made Guardians the # 1 MT in the game? not the Dev's , the Player's themselves made Guardian's the # 1 MT becuase they found out that a guardian could be buffed to invulnerable, that was a Flaw in the design itself,   Dev's have stated since release ALL Tanks should Tank equally , but different;y  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>all tanks tank heroic content equally...  guards might have a slight edge in epic content, but any plate tank can be raid MT without issues...  so for 5% of the game guards comeout ahead of the rest of the tanks by a very slim margin...  yet soloing and grouping we're middle of the road at best...  lowest dps + no sort of incombat heal/regen...</FONT></P> <P>also i think Guardian's once agian got a little over loving with AA's , why ? becuase SOE Messed up and RUSHEd AA's and gave them to our SUbclasses and not our Individual classes ,   it's very easy to see what ever DEV is behind Zerker's currently gives them all the best tool's , and IMO the guardian wound up benifiting from this by Accident      and when you take a LOOK at Crusader AA's compared to a Zerker's ??????   the only real choice is to take the INTell for DP"S , wisdom for resists and buff's and then whatever left over go Sta, or Str , once again Crusader;s  have to Spread tehmselves thin , with Stats and AA's </P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>actully its the zerkers that benifit from the AAs way more than guards...  if you look at most of the AA lines they look good on paper but in practice are really nothing special...  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>wis line gives 19% dps buff and 314 mita, and melle mit debuff with sever restictions on it (ie not useable on raids and requires a hammer/mace)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>str line gives 22% crit chance and 10% hate gain...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>sta line requires a buckler to be used, it gives 72% double attack, and a loss in avoidance (not to mention the loss in mita from a good tower/kite shield)...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>agi gives defence (which i'm already capped on), a 12 sec parry ability (but i'm just standing there for 12 secs, not even auto attack going off), and chance to frontal on my auto attack</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>int gives haste, parry and a faster reuse timer...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00ff>guards have no procing stances or abilities, this is where the zekrer comes out ahead from the AAs...  add their class procs to the frontal attack, the haste, or the crit chance at it pushes their dps threw the roof...  guards benifit some from them but its not anywhere near the extent of that the zerker gets...</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>as i've said in the past a plate tank is a plate tank...  they can all tank raids without any issues...  but to say guards are a more of a buffbot roll is false, its a waist of a MT group spot if another tank is already MT...  there are so few encounters that need an OT (maybe 4 total between all the instances, and 3 for contesteds)...  and of all the encounters you don't need a guardian...  that seems balanced to me...  in t5 you really did need a guardian as MT...</P> <P>if the MT goes down we usually call wipe right then, there are very few encounters that need more than 6 healers so that all we take...  i'll die before the MT will if i'm not tanking (either with intercedes or pulling agro and taking a couple hit while the MT gets back green)...  thats my roll though, if i'm not MT i'm expendable...</P> <P>the best raid MT class right now imo is the zerker, more dps, and alot more AE agro...  they have a little less HP, the same mita, with AAs the make up the defence the guards have over them inherantly...  guards are just the safest choice for MT when just starting out raiding, or trying a new zone...</P> <P>i still think the antifear line is a must for crusader tanks...  it makes zones like HoS so much easier with a crusader tanking..  no mobs shifting into walls or frontaling the melee dps...  just getting into venny's room and setup in our pull spot makes it worth it to me...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yeah i wasn't harping on Guardian's , i was just stating my feeling's about the Game at Release, and how guardians were just another tank class, until it was realized by the Player's that a guardian was the easiest Tank to use in every situation </P> <P>it is annoying and fustrating to be hearing about SK's , still having issue's with Classism in Eq2, still getting Rude comment's and smart azz remark's from other player's,  </P> <P>i know guardians after re-vamp were Knocked way down , but this is a standerd eq2 practice,Guard's were on top so long they tried to give a Little time for players to try diffrent tanks as MT's, it helped a little but not enough or for long enough IMO , it's  like the New social agro ,they  release it OVER the top in ALL zones and then cut it back some, if they released it in the CUT back already state? then players would be whining that was to much and they would have to Trim it to be pointless to even have implemented it </P> <P>i myself love my SK , i have my issue's , thier are thing's that need tweek's , for me personaly it's my power consumption and regain when in Def, 1h and shield,  +  the Huge drop in my Intell in Def, agro usualy isn't an issue, but i work like a flippin dog for it every second i MT, if i slack off just alittle or do something wrong or get resisted, interupted one time to many BLAM agro is GONE , getting it back can be a BEAR,  if FD , rescue,  HT  our out, or rather 1 of the three , with all three i can get agro back 98 % of the time, but with just HT , or Rescue i can fail getting it back 50 % of the time </P> <P>yes player skill goes a long way IMO, but when it comes to equal skill between 2 seperate classes? as you said guards have a 5 % better Raid MT ability ,  i would say more like 10 % Vs an SK , but that is IMO</P> <P>ALL Sk's agree we need some tweek's but we aren't broken , and it pisses me off that this is still implied in-game to Player's that Sk's are gimped, look at this post you have a LvL 56 Sk that is comming to the SK board's asking if it's true : ( , there shouldn't have been a doubt in thier mind , but their it is a tiny bit of doubt instilled by a rude jerk , next time they lose agro they think Im broken(NOT THE OP PERSONALLY JUST IN GENERAL : ) , or well Sk's suck, etc..... how many post's on the Sk boards from player's switching to Pallie's with the dumb stupid Weak azz class change at any level ?  (god this game is getting so pathetic) ( and Thank the Dark god those weak minded pallies in disguise  left the Sk community : )  ,  </P> <P>but anyway i was just giving the OP a backround on why they were getting Flak , and how the game was at release, and some of the reason's why there is a Classist player base in Eq2, Min / maxers will be in all games , it's just more obvious when you are one of the MIN class : ) , and have been since release, and proving the Maxxer's wrong along the way,  </P> <P>yeah i have tanked since release with broken skill's , and blew away alot of other tank's (prop's to the ones i didn't : ) , i would have People add me to friend's list's and then get a tell from them next day " Hey wanna come MT for our group? " , i say  " Sure No prob's where 2  ? " , silence 5 minutes later  "  O sorry man : ( umm the healer don't wan't an SK for a MT , say's they aren't tank's " , and i would reply  " lol thats ok , thanks for tryin is no biggy don't worry about it, maybe we party later  " , and this would happen ALL the time, and i don't wish that on anybody, , i have had Friend's tell me  " man i sorry i didn't know that Sk's were so broken  " and i would say  " what ? what r u talkin about ? i have tanked for you how many times ? " , and they say " o well i was in a group last night and they wanted a tank i said there was a SK lfg, and the group flipped , sayin sk's Suck, sk broke , don't ever use a Sk as a MT etc.." </P> <P>i have been there , done that , have you Wabit ? i mean you guys had to deal with it for a couple months after LU 13, but you had friend's and guildy support,  Sk's been dealing with it since release with little or no support , so yeah i can feel for the OP< and how it feel's hearing crap like that , and fully understand the situation </P> <P>i myself don't feel inferior to any Tank, and i would do everything in my power to be victorius, but sometimes Other player's Disbelief in your abilities will determine the Outcome,  i can tell when a healer isn't interested in me As a MT , i can tell when they are just Waiting the wipe, or waiting for me to lose agro and say " I knew it , sorry got to go BYE " but when that doesn't happen and hour's later after not 1 player died you think they would be happy ? nope they just think you got lucky ROFLlllllll becuase they have been force fed the same drivel everybody else is fed , and they believe it and so does Alot of the player base . </P> <P>yeah we need some thing's , if we don't get them i will deal and roll on ,  i have done more with less for along time , SK FTW </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>07-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 PM</span>

[Wabit]

<P>i soloed most of the way from 55-60, so i only had about 3 lvls of grouping before that (most of that was tanking in a robe and resist gear)...  the first 2 lvls i made before they changed the cons system...</P> <P>i'm all for SKs getting some love in the AA department, they really are horrid...</P> <P>i just responed cause you were pointing at guards inparticular...  as for the raid tanking disparity between the classes, 5% is the difference between a guard and SK it drops more as the mita cap is reached (easy to do really)...</P> <P>i've seen good tanks and bad tanks of all 6 classes...  but the sheer number of pals and gurds in the game make it easy to offset the bad ones...  bruisers and SKs are much rares, so a bad one of them really stands out in ppls minds (i think i saw 1 bruiser and 1 SK from 1-50)...</P> <P>i definatly wouldn't go around shouting that x tank class can pull agro from y tank class...  we can all pull agro off each other...  most tanks have the common sence/curotisy not to if they aren't tanking (not the zerker mentioned above)...</P>

[Sokolov]

Sarasoon/Naldir tanked the Essence of Fear for 8 and a half minutes in Lyceum on Friday evening - with a 3 group raid.<div></div>

[plantb]

<P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Mortal]

<div><blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div></div> <p>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</p> <p>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</p> <p>Plant</p><hr></blockquote>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)</div>

[Nicholai24]

<div><blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div></div> <p>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</p> <p>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</p> <p>Plant</p><hr></blockquote>You're a [Removed for Content].</div>

[Grimm79]

Since our Guardian MT left us to join a die hard raidguild I've been tanking Labs 2 times now, 1st time was absolute hell. 2nd time when I gave the raid some clear instructions about waiting with dps untill I got 1 or 2 taunts in it went pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well. Havent killed vyemn yet though.. maybe we will tonight.

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Adapting to an SK as MT will probably envolve wipes, and the need for certain classes.  At the end of the day, people dont want to wipe if it can be avoided.  Maybe when the zone is no longer much of a challange you can stick an SK in.</P> <P>I've been in 3 different guilds.</P> <P>Casual - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Semi hardcore raiding - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Hard Core - Never MTed, and nore will I when there is 2 Guardians 2 Zerkers 1 Pally and 2 Sks.</P> <P>The other SK in my current guild doesnt tank as well, hes on MA duty, and he says exactly the same things as me.</P> <P>Call me all the names under the sun, I dont really care, at the end of the day I know what I see.  </P> <P>Tbh, I'm sick of having to be the best to do a job that a warrior class can do with ease.  This is a game not a stupid job.</P> <P>All I care about know is looking good, hopefuly something that Warrior classes will not take away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Flame On</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Amen. I've met the SK from your guild back before I left Oasis and I must say that I was impressed by his set-up and mentatlity with the class. I just saw to much controversey on Oasis when I was there with the SK class doing anything, but then again that was back in t6 when we did have a few issues with hate gain. =/

[Mmaster]

<blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MortalQ2 wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> plantboy wrote: <div></div> <p>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</p> <p>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</p> <p>Plant</p> <hr> </blockquote>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Adapting to an SK as MT will probably envolve wipes, and the need for certain classes.  At the end of the day, people dont want to wipe if it can be avoided.  Maybe when the zone is no longer much of a challange you can stick an SK in.</p> <p>I've been in 3 different guilds.</p> <p>Casual - Never MTed in T7</p> <p>Semi hardcore raiding - Never MTed in T7</p> <p>Hard Core - Never MTed, and nore will I when there is 2 Guardians 2 Zerkers 1 Pally and 2 Sks.</p> <p>The other SK in my current guild doesnt tank as well, hes on MA duty, and he says exactly the same things as me.</p> <p>Call me all the names under the sun, I dont really care, at the end of the day I know what I see.  </p> <p>Tbh, I'm sick of having to be the best to do a job that a warrior class can do with ease.  This is a game not a stupid job.</p> <p>All I care about know is looking good, hopefuly something that Warrior classes will not take away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>Flame On</p> <p>Plant</p><hr></blockquote>That is the whiniest load of garbage I have heard yet, you're a chump. The very essence of being hardcore is knowing your class exceptionally well and making good decisions, knowledge is power. I have MT'd in T7, you havent, with your pessimistic attitude no wonder they dont let you tank. Every other tank has it just as we do, we play the same game and have the same role, if you cant fullfill that role while many others can it sounds like you have a personal problem.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR>Sarasoon/Naldir tanked the Essence of Fear for 8 and a half minutes in Lyceum on Friday evening - with a 3 group raid.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sustained raid DPS for this zone for us was between 9 and 10K consistantly and I only lost agro once during the entire 6 hour exploration of the zone and it was to a conjy that enjoys attempting to rip agro from me. On our raids we have a wizzy that is now pushing between 2K and 2500 DPS that starts as soon as I pull the mob, no time to obtain agro or even position the mobs, this guy starts right away. But we have a problem with agro Plant? By all means, show me your tactics when tanking. If you're speced for DPS, then you should have NO problems maintaining agro. Even without a hate buffing class, our raids can produce around 9K DPS and I still maintain agro, but maybe I've just learned enough about the class to be proficient with it and our guild has learned enough about raiding to have a proper raid set up that even the worst tank would have very few problems with. /shrug What do I know.

[Kelkirra]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Adapting to an SK as MT will probably envolve wipes, and the need for certain classes.  At the end of the day, people dont want to wipe if it can be avoided.  Maybe when the zone is no longer much of a challange you can stick an SK in.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Incorrect. We actually have had fewer wipes due to lack of a class tanking than we have just learning strats to a zone. We don't completely follow any sort of guide or instructions from any guild. We find the easisest way for us and this is what will actually cause our wipes, trial and error on strats for mobs. /shrug I still don't understand what you're doing or NOT doing.</FONT></P> <P>I've been in 3 different guilds.</P> <P>Casual - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Semi hardcore raiding - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Hard Core - Never MTed, and nore will I when there is 2 Guardians 2 Zerkers 1 Pally and 2 Sks.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I've been in all 3 myself. In the casual raiding that I do here and with an old guild on Oasis, I didn't tank much due to gear and lvl to be honest. I wasn't even in full legendary untill t6 and I still tanked the lower teir epics. In the harder core raiding guild, I didn't tank because I perfered not to. I enjoyed being a DPS/buff-bot and did not want the responsibility. At the end of t6 and begining of t7, after having tanked raids in the past mind you, I had lost faith in the SK class due to a ton of circumstances. I was given new hope when my own guild mates pushed for me to MT the MoA raid after we had failed with a warrior 2 or 3 different times. That was a breath of freash air to me. Maybe you need the same honestly. All plate tanks can tank equally, we all just tank differently. As wabbit has stated, using a warrior in the begining is just EASIER not better. </FONT></P> <P>The other SK in my current guild doesnt tank as well, hes on MA duty, and he says exactly the same things as me.</P> <P>Call me all the names under the sun, I dont really care, at the end of the day I know what I see.  </P> <P>Tbh, I'm sick of having to be the best to do a job that a warrior class can do with ease.  This is a game not a stupid job.</P> <P>All I care about know is looking good, hopefuly something that Warrior classes will not take away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Flame On</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>To be honest myself, I enjoy the challenge of tanking with the SK class. I would be so fregging bored playing a warrior as my main. I've tried them out and even played my buddies zerker during raids at times. Can't say that I enjoyed it honestly. The crusader class itself is a challenge in the fact that we are jacks of all trades but masters of none. It might be a bit more difficult to start with using a crusader, but once you learn the class and your raid learns your playstyle, it's some of the most fun in the game. I don't know man. You seem to be as discouraged as I was, if not more, back at the end of t6. Give it a shot. I would probably go as far as saying that you probably have better gear than even I do, better spell qualities and I can still do what you say is poposterous. W/e though. If you would keep such a grim outlook on the class, then continue to. I'll keep tanking raids and breaking your impossibilites while you remain down about something that you "can't" do.</P> <P>I should also mention that our sustained raid DPS with 4 groups pushes between 10-11K pretty easily for most fights as well, with me tanking. As a class that you say can't tank epic content.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Sarasoon on <span class=date_text>07-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mmaster wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Adapting to an SK as MT will probably envolve wipes, and the need for certain classes.  At the end of the day, people dont want to wipe if it can be avoided.  Maybe when the zone is no longer much of a challange you can stick an SK in.</P> <P>I've been in 3 different guilds.</P> <P>Casual - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Semi hardcore raiding - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Hard Core - Never MTed, and nore will I when there is 2 Guardians 2 Zerkers 1 Pally and 2 Sks.</P> <P>The other SK in my current guild doesnt tank as well, hes on MA duty, and he says exactly the same things as me.</P> <P>Call me all the names under the sun, I dont really care, at the end of the day I know what I see.  </P> <P>Tbh, I'm sick of having to be the best to do a job that a warrior class can do with ease.  This is a game not a stupid job.</P> <P>All I care about know is looking good, hopefuly something that Warrior classes will not take away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Flame On</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is the whiniest load of garbage I have heard yet, you're a chump. The very essence of being hardcore is knowing your class exceptionally well and making good decisions, knowledge is power. I have MT'd in T7, you havent, with your pessimistic attitude no wonder they dont let you tank. Every other tank has it just as we do, we play the same game and have the same role, if you cant fullfill that role while many others can it sounds like you have a personal problem.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OH SNAP!!!!!! I'm with ya bro. =D

[Nicholai24]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote: <P> </P> <DIV>You're a [Removed for Content].<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I like this guy. He's succinct.<BR></DIV>

[mikeyswizz]

<DIV>you cant say you like yourself</DIV>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mmaster wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Adapting to an SK as MT will probably envolve wipes, and the need for certain classes.  At the end of the day, people dont want to wipe if it can be avoided.  Maybe when the zone is no longer much of a challange you can stick an SK in.</P> <P>I've been in 3 different guilds.</P> <P>Casual - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Semi hardcore raiding - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Hard Core - Never MTed, and nore will I when there is 2 Guardians 2 Zerkers 1 Pally and 2 Sks.</P> <P>The other SK in my current guild doesnt tank as well, hes on MA duty, and he says exactly the same things as me.</P> <P>Call me all the names under the sun, I dont really care, at the end of the day I know what I see.  </P> <P>Tbh, I'm sick of having to be the best to do a job that a warrior class can do with ease.  This is a game not a stupid job.</P> <P>All I care about know is looking good, hopefuly something that Warrior classes will not take away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Flame On</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is the whiniest load of garbage I have heard yet, you're a chump. The very essence of being hardcore is knowing your class exceptionally well and making good decisions, knowledge is power. I have MT'd in T7, you havent, with your pessimistic attitude no wonder they dont let you tank. Every other tank has it just as we do, we play the same game and have the same role, if you cant fullfill that role while many others can it sounds like you have a personal problem.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Fine!! You go and make a thread on the Combat forums telling Raid Leaders to ditch their Warriors as MTs and use their SKs, like to see the responses you get.</P> <P>Before you all slate me more Answer me this question with a yes or no only please.  Do Sks have Agro problems?</P> <P>Knowledge is power, but name calling makes u look dense.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[Wabit]

with the right raid setup no they don't...  with a bad raidsetup agro is an issue for all tanks...

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mmaster wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Adapting to an SK as MT will probably envolve wipes, and the need for certain classes.  At the end of the day, people dont want to wipe if it can be avoided.  Maybe when the zone is no longer much of a challange you can stick an SK in.</P> <P>I've been in 3 different guilds.</P> <P>Casual - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Semi hardcore raiding - Never MTed in T7</P> <P>Hard Core - Never MTed, and nore will I when there is 2 Guardians 2 Zerkers 1 Pally and 2 Sks.</P> <P>The other SK in my current guild doesnt tank as well, hes on MA duty, and he says exactly the same things as me.</P> <P>Call me all the names under the sun, I dont really care, at the end of the day I know what I see.  </P> <P>Tbh, I'm sick of having to be the best to do a job that a warrior class can do with ease.  This is a game not a stupid job.</P> <P>All I care about know is looking good, hopefuly something that Warrior classes will not take away. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Flame On</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is the whiniest load of garbage I have heard yet, you're a chump. The very essence of being hardcore is knowing your class exceptionally well and making good decisions, knowledge is power. I have MT'd in T7, you havent, with your pessimistic attitude no wonder they dont let you tank. Every other tank has it just as we do, we play the same game and have the same role, if you cant fullfill that role while many others can it sounds like you have a personal problem.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Fine!! You go and make a thread on the Combat forums telling Raid Leaders to ditch their Warriors as MTs and use their SKs, like to see the responses you get.</P> <P>Before you all slate me more Answer me this question with a yes or no only please.  Do Sks have Agro problems?</P> <P>Knowledge is power, but name calling makes u look dense.</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As wabbit stated, with the right raid set-up, no we don't have agro issues. Sorry to ruin your perception of what your raid leader gave you pal, but we're a TANKing class. If I wanted to do nothing but DPS in a raid, I would have grinded my assassin to 70 instead of my SK. /shrug

[Zoradan]

<P>/sigh</P> <P> </P> <P>The great SK board flame wars on tanks and agro. That never ends. Funny thing is both sides are genraly correct.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tanking: Sk's can tank t7 raid content. I have. They could tank t5, Spit-paw pack, and t6 as welll. Pre-and post lu13. I've done it all. I know many others who have as well.</P> <P>We can hold agro, we have utility, and all that.</P> <P> </P> <P>That said, we are not the priemere or even prefered plate tank for a raiding guild. We do have some issues.</P> <P>I got lucky I guess, I ended up in a good guild and we never seemed to be able to hold on to Guards, gone thrue 5 or 6 of them LOL. Myself and our Zerker tanked most every thing, along with our other SK and our pallies. We got good at using off flavor tanks for raiding, be it t5, Split-paw or t6, Princess, or any thing elce. We have a good guard now and we typicly run the Guard/Zerker MT thing, it is the better set up. My self and our Pallie tank along side of them quite often, either as Back up, add graber, or when deagro mobs are being fought.</P> <P> </P> <P>End truth is SK's can tank.<BR>SK's do have the short end of the stick on agro control, however:<BR>A good SK is beter than an avrage Guard, and:<BR>A Great SK is capable any time.</P>

[Agamemno]

Well we did drakota raids last night for prismatics and I did some off-tanking and MA'ing with my 56 SK. We have a 62 guard who did the MT work but I was pleasantly surprised to realize that I not only parsed well, but helped out quite a bit being in the MT group. Mit, extra buffs and all that jazz and had to FD the guard once because he accidentally pulled one of the drakota when clearing the yard trash.So bollocks to anyone who says we are useless in raids, and may the flees of a hundred drakota infest thier ball zacks =P<div></div>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<blockquote><hr>MortalQ2 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>plantboy wrote:<div></div><p>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</p><p>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</p><p>Plant</p><hr></blockquote>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)</div><hr></blockquote>agreed, we had our wizard take a few mobs im lyceum for fun, lol buffed him up and put him in group 1. Hehe he won too without dying and held aggro fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MortalQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>If ya wanna get through T7 raid content efficiently an SK will not tank.  Some raids encounters you will need to have a Sustained dps raid output of 10K+ .  Some raid spots will be on a class need. Guard + zerker + maybe pally.  Sk last on the list.</P><BR> <P>Theres a reason why raiding guilds use Warriors as MTs.</P><BR> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then we must be totally backwards, we have used our SK to tank everything(cept Tarinax since he was immune), and he does a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job of it.  Its not the same as a warrior, but once your guild learns the differences between them, its easy to adjust and work with whoever.  Hell with the right setup *I* could tank a lot of the stuff in T7.  It is all about knowing the strength's and weaknesses of who ya got =)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>agreed, we had our wizard take a few mobs im lyceum for fun, lol buffed him up and put him in group 1. Hehe he won too without dying and held aggro fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LMFAO</P> <P>OMG, I had tears in my eyes when I read this. I've actually thought about doing this with a buddy of mine that raids with us in Labs, just never did. =D And they say that wizzies aren't overpowered O_O j/k</P>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sarasoon wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Pitt Hammerfist wrote:agreed, we had our wizard take a few mobs im lyceum for fun, lol buffed him up and put him in group 1. Hehe he won too without dying and held aggro fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote> <p>LMFAO</p> <p>OMG, I had tears in my eyes when I read this. I've actually thought about doing this with a buddy of mine that raids with us in Labs, just never did. =D And they say that wizzies aren't overpowered O_O j/k</p><hr></blockquote>Oh man.  We are so going to try doing a labs farming run with a Warlock tank tonight.</div>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Ack!  See what you made me do!  I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into this thread.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR>Ack!  See what you made me do!  I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into this thread.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>heh, sucked into the flame war eh?

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zoradan wrote:<div></div><p>End truth is SK's can tank.SK's do have the short end of the stick on agro control, however:A good SK is beter than an avrage Guard, and:A Great SK is capable any time.</p><hr></blockquote>Perfect summary, and the same exact thing for Paladin's.  People are just used to the stigma of having Warriors tank....and while they are the prefered tank, Crusaders can do just fine.Though I do agree that SK's are at the short end of the stick for aggro control...and while a Coercer / Dirge / Swash / Assassin, etc...can help that, putting the other 3 plate tanks in a group with a mix of those people, they will hold aggro better.</div>

[Kelkirra]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zoradan wrote:<BR> <P>End truth is SK's can tank.<BR>SK's do have the short end of the stick on agro control, however:<BR>A good SK is beter than an avrage Guard, and:<BR>A Great SK is capable any time.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Perfect summary, and the same exact thing for Paladin's.  People are just used to the stigma of having Warriors tank....and while they are the prefered tank, Crusaders can do just fine.<BR><BR>Though I do agree that SK's are at the short end of the stick for aggro control...and while a Coercer / Dirge / Swash / Assassin, etc...can help that, putting the other 3 plate tanks in a group with a mix of those people, they will hold aggro better.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're only going to be right with that statement if the SK in question is doing nothing but taunting and not using their DPS to their advantage. We will hold agro just as well as a warrior or any other tank for that matter if we're doing our job. Our threat on our taunts per taunt compared may be a bit lower than the other classes, but we make up for it with our raw DPS. Any Sk that MT raids will tell you that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We're not better nor worse than the other tanking classes, just different.</P> <P> </P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sarasoon wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Zoradan wrote: <div></div> <p>End truth is SK's can tank.SK's do have the short end of the stick on agro control, however:A good SK is beter than an avrage Guard, and:A Great SK is capable any time.</p> <hr> </blockquote>Perfect summary, and the same exact thing for Paladin's.  People are just used to the stigma of having Warriors tank....and while they are the prefered tank, Crusaders can do just fine.Though I do agree that SK's are at the short end of the stick for aggro control...and while a Coercer / Dirge / Swash / Assassin, etc...can help that, putting the other 3 plate tanks in a group with a mix of those people, they will hold aggro better.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You're only going to be right with that statement if the SK in question is doing nothing but taunting and not using their DPS to their advantage. We will hold agro just as well as a warrior or any other tank for that matter if we're doing our job. Our threat on our taunts per taunt compared may be a bit lower than the other classes, but we make up for it with our raw DPS. Any Sk that MT raids will tell you that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. We're not better nor worse than the other tanking classes, just different.</p> <hr></blockquote>I don't mean this (even though it might sound it) to sound offensive, but MT a raid with the DPS putting up 15k+ DPS, and a SK will not be able to hold aggro even with Troubs, other hate siphon's etc. SK hate is well below Guardians (moderate, reinforcement, etc) and Paladin's (Amends, Sigil)...and while you might be able to hold aggro in your raids, a higher end guild with a SK tanking will have more of an issue.Again I don't mean to sound offensive or question you or the guild you raid with.....just going from past experiences.</div>

[Giral]

<DIV>Sarasoon Said :  Our threat on our taunts per taunt compared may be a bit lower than the other classes, but we make up for it with our raw DPS. Any Sk that MT raids will tell you that</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so when we are MT we have high raw Dp's ?    i thought when we MT we put on all our HP/Mitigation gear and go 1 handed and shield and lose so much Intell from gear and Stance in Defensive that our dp's realy suffer's   ?  or maybe there is a way to Max our Dp's as MT to be doing 1100+ ?   raiding with a zerker as MT i have seen him parcing constantly over 1100+ dp's, what are your Parces when you are Raid MT Sarasoon  ? </DIV> <DIV>        </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Giralus wrote:<div>Sarasoon Said :  Our threat on our taunts per taunt compared may be a bit lower than the other classes, but we make up for it with our raw DPS. Any Sk that MT raids will tell you that</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>so when we are MT we have high raw Dp's ?    i thought when we MT we put on all our HP/Mitigation gear and go 1 handed and shield and lose so much Intell from gear and Stance in Defensive that our dp's realy suffer's   ?  or maybe there is a way to Max our Dp's as MT to be doing 1100+ ?   raiding with a zerker as MT i have seen him parcing constantly over 1100+ dp's, what are your Parces when you are Raid MT Sarasoon  ? </div> <div>        </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I knew that after reading Naldir (Sarasoon's) comment that someone would say what you did.So here's the thing.  Yes, "everybody" knows a zerker who can do "X" DPS.  Does that mean that the same zerker playing an SK wouldn't do the same DPS?  Because that's the only test.  For our raids, Sarasoon tanks, in defensive of course, and typically keeps up with our zerkers with a range of 500-900 DPS, depending on circumstances.   Gear is roughly equal, generally speaking - none of us are uber.The actual numbers hardly matter, it's how much you do versus a similiarily geared player in the same instance, and in my experience, an SK outputs good damage.</div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div>I don't mean this (even though it might sound it) to sound offensive, but MT a raid with the DPS putting up 15k+ DPS, and a SK will not be able to hold aggro even with Troubs, other hate siphon's etc. SK hate is well below Guardians (moderate, reinforcement, etc) and Paladin's (Amends, Sigil)...and while you might be able to hold aggro in your raids, a higher end guild with a SK tanking will have more of an issue.Again I don't mean to sound offensive or question you or the guild you raid with.....just going from past experiences.</div><hr></blockquote>We have a wizard that has parsed over 2k over multiple fights without pulling aggro off him.  Altho as a raid we don't come close to 15k, hehe.In any case tho, you may well be right, hopefully we can get there ourselves and see with our own eyes.</div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

There's not much issue in my experience. I've tanked raids which parsed around 13.5 or 14.0, and I rarely, rarely lose aggro. Our hate generation is not really inferior, as far as raw numbers are concerned. The main problem I've always had is highly disease resistant enemies who consistently bounce our single-target taunt and shield slam, and any tank in the game will have issues holding aggro. without the use of their taunts. Our taunts are one of the most highly resisted, without the proper debuff classes on a raid.. But then again, this only happens with Tarinax for me, and only near the beginning, before the Dirges and Necromancers and everyone and his brother with a Disease Mit. debuff lands their stuff and makes my life easier.Anyway, whatever. Boring thread. Convincing others about this is an act of charity.. -I- don't need convincing, because I'm living it.Find out for yourselves, or don't.. but if you end up getting us nerfed somehow, I'll find out where you live.<div></div>

[Colin MacLaren]

Today a Bruiser was picked over me for a lower level raid lathough we both were the same level and had full pre-nerf mastercrafted gear. Time to reroll, or I won't participate in any raids once I hit 70.

[Pitt Hammerfi]

Allure can dps at 16k + a second i can still hold aggro fine.<p>Message Edited by Pitt Hammerfist on <span class=date_text>07-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[MidNiteSun]

With all that's been said what are some good things to take to help keep aggro. I've a lvl 56 SK and sometimes i loose aggro to monks, bruisers, most DPS, etc. does this mean i'm a bad tank? (I'm just asking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) Most times I can pull aggro back, but against some DPS its hard to regain aggro.

[Nicholai24]

The stupid monks and bruisers you're grouping with have a Combat Art which provides them a 50% chance to increase threat to whatever enemy they're hitting with every melee attack. No, you're not a bad tank.. They just don't know to turn off their own buffs. When in doubt, always look around to see if someone else is screwing up. Chances are, they are.There's no secret to holding aggro. Get upgraded taunts ( AdIII or M1 of Insidious Promise / Sacrilege / Venomous Slam / Nefarious Caress ), get a solid weapon of your choice in style, and find yourself a rhythm which seems to work for you. Once you're 58, your aggro. problems will be resolved for the most part, in the form of Death March. Keep going, pal.<div></div>

[Terron]

My guild's normal tank for high end raids is a SK. He's a fat, ugly, stupid ogre but does a good job. But if you have to choose between an equally equipped and skilled guard and SK as MT, I would say make the guard the MT. Not because he would be the better MT, but because he would likely be worse in any other role. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>Update:  Naldir has successfully kept aggro vs 16k+ dps with multiple members approaching 2k dps.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>10-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> Update:  Naldir has successfully kept aggro vs 16k+ dps with multiple members approaching 2k dps.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HIghest so far was 18K i believe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Warlock hit 5K DPS on that fight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> Update:  Naldir has successfully kept aggro vs 16k+ dps with multiple members approaching 2k dps.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HIghest so far was 18K i believe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Warlock hit 5K DPS on that fight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>24k dps and counting.

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> Update:  Naldir has successfully kept aggro vs 16k+ dps with multiple members approaching 2k dps.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HIghest so far was 18K i believe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Warlock hit 5K DPS on that fight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>24k dps and counting.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>:smileysurprised:  You're kidding right? JESUS, I don't even remember that fight O_O.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>At 24K dps it was probably over so fast you don't remember hehe:smileyvery-happy:</DIV><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>10-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>At 24K dps it was probably over so fast you don't remember hehe:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>if I remember correctly it was less than 30 seconds of carnage.  i'll have to check the parser when i get home

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>At 24K dps it was probably over so fast you don't remember hehe:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're prolly right. I can remember hitting 17 and 18K pretty consistantly on certian nights and on certian AE mobs we hit 20K but I didn't know that we had hit 24K  . . . .hell, I think I'm even impressed that I've held that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Now, to kill off all of the raiding guilds and camp Huri for the hate procing gear *evil grins* Yes my pretties, it will be mine O_O

[IllusiveThoughts]

<FONT size=2></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:<BR> <DIV>At 24K dps it was probably over so fast you don't remember hehe:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're prolly right. I can remember hitting 17 and 18K pretty consistantly on certian nights and on certian AE mobs we hit 20K but I didn't know that we had hit 24K  . . . .hell, I think I'm even impressed that I've held that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Now, to kill off all of the raiding guilds and camp Huri for the hate procing gear *evil grins* Yes my pretties, it will be mine O_O<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>okay I lied it was <STRONG>26K DPS</STRONG></P> <P>btw raid dps is in ext dps, individual's are listed in dps, so yes the raid actually did 26k dps and naldir held agro through 40 seconds of carnage.</P> <P> </P> <P>Allies: (00:40) 1051043 | <STRONG><FONT size=4><U>26276.07</U></FONT></STRONG> [Illu-Fusion-10828]<BR>Illu 145817 | 3738.90                 3645 ext dps  me wizard<BR>Oben 135851 | 5031.52            3396 ext dps  warlock<BR>Alle 122553 | 3604.50                3063 ext dps  conj<BR>Trit 117764 | 3680.13                2944 ext dps  conj 2<BR>Numb 72642 | 2504.90              1816 ext dps  ranger<BR>Haka 68849 | 2294.97               1721 ext dps  paly<BR><STRONG><U>Nald 56596 | 1451.18                1414 ext dps  sk MT</U></STRONG><BR>Acce 52179 | 2484.71               1304 ext dps  necro<BR>Sand 42397 | 1514.18               1059 ext dps corecer<BR>Fuzz 38234 | 1318.41               955 ext dps assasin<BR>Mill 33848 | 1091.87                   846 ext dps  sk<BR>Zzie 31854 | 1061.80                 796 ext dps  paly<BR>Pand 30021 | 1765.94               750 ext dps fury<BR>Vinh 24923 | 1083.61                 635 ext dps monk<BR>Eapa 22903 | 738.81                  572 ext dps conj 3<BR>Etho 19493 | 721.96                   487 ext dps paly<BR>Aery 17676 | 883.80                  441 ext dps troub<BR></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>10-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 PM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>And they said that a SK wouldn't be able to hold more than 15K raid DPS . . .pfft. . . /flex</DIV>

[ThrashVTX]

<DIV>If we can keep the MOB outta the ceiling so I can get "Shifty" to actually cast the whole fight, I'll give ya another 2k at least next week by myself, not to mention whatever that does for others in the raid.  Wouldn't it rock if old Naldir could hold 30k? 32k? 36?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"New Tactic" FTW =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Alle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>New Outriders: Pushing the boundaries of sane thought since 1992</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allestair McCallister</DIV> <DIV>*NOR/CT-EQ2 DMG-RM</DIV> <DIV>Mistmoore</DIV><p>Message Edited by ThrashVTX on <span class=date_text>10-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[Sportak]

<P>Ok I have a question and it doesn't merit a new thread so this is as good a place as any. I recently joined a raid allaicne made up of guilds with people wanting to raid, but not enough people. We have a good group, and it's fun, but something happened in labs that I find odd.</P> <P>I'm MT at least until our Guardian gets better gear, and you can see mine here <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=572509204" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=572509204</A></P> <P>It's not too bad, maybe not going to be worrying matron or whatever, but it is a start. Anyway, with a 1 ahander and shield (obviously) and a few changes in jewelery I can get my resists up to around 6000, and my mit capped against crushing and 75% or so against others. We do labs to get gear, and practice (since we don't have 24 people yet who can raid at once) but twice now one of them has hit me for 12,500 damage, or 9800 (my HP is at around 9000) so of course these are insta kills. I think the ravagers did it. The thaumaturges also kick crap out of me (I know they are nasty but I've tanked them before no real issues). I should say in the last raid we only had 12 people, and only 3 healers, but being 1 shotted it seems even with 24 healers it wouldn't matter</P> <P>So, finally, to the question. Is there some debuff they have, maybe that doesn't show up as a curable effect? No n00b comments please I know I'm inexperienced at raiding but it's not like I'm trying to tank it as a monk, right? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>All advice/comments gratefully accepted and appreciated.</P>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>The ravagers use debilitate (large Mit debuff)...it's a cureable trauma. If the healers aren't getting it off fast enough that's possibly casuing you to get hit quite bad. Even with my Mit around 6100 to 6400 raid buffed....I can get dropped quite fast if one assigned healer is not spam curing trauma until the Ravs dead. Can't remmber which one..but it could be a hammerfist that hit you. Are you doing the named also? The only one in there that hits that hard is usually the named Zatrack. If we are lacking a 3 healer MT group setup that night,  we usually have backup tanks take turns intercepting (and they die on the hit usually) for that named. With a 3 healer setup...and possibly even a grandmaster constitution potion you should be able to get your HP up around 12+ though anyway, should keep you up. The Trio can often hit quite hard early off the pull too, buff mental hard and divine. You can up your Mit a lot by switching back to the CoP for chest, the Aviak bracelet, or Golden searing and 2 Light Chits too if you are having Mit issues..and shield of course (Grizzle or Four winds or what not). The pearl orb has more Mit on it than the cobalt, neckband of might, Hooloo's helm instead of the deathknight will also jump you a bit. Anyway, just a few ideas that may help. You have some nice gear pieces for doing labs, you should be fine with the changes above. We often do it with no shaman for non named runs, my Mitigation is around 6200ish, Hp around 10,350 with 4 to 6k on resists not buffing for a particular type. If the healers are on top of the cures, there is no non-named that is really any danger like that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>10-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>In terms of named, there is a mob in Labs which also does an attack called "Mortal Wound" which can hit a tank for upwards of 10k damage in one hit (I've seen it hit for close to 12k before).  This same mob has an AE arcane debuff which hits a player for 90% of his/her health when it wears off.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>10-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 PM</span>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Ya, that's Zatrack. Mortal wounds is Magic based apparently. It must be the Hammerfist you were thinking of , if non-named. The Endbringers used debilitate and hit one of the MTs on 2 diff fights for 13,400 and 14,300...ouch. <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>10-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ThrashVTX wrote:<BR> <DIV>If we can keep the MOB outta the ceiling so I can get "Shifty" to actually cast the whole fight, I'll give ya another 2k at least next week by myself, not to mention whatever that does for others in the raid.  Wouldn't it rock if old Naldir could hold 30k? 32k? 36?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"New Tactic" FTW =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Alle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>New Outriders: Pushing the boundaries of sane thought since 1992</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allestair McCallister</DIV> <DIV>*NOR/CT-EQ2 DMG-RM</DIV> <DIV>Mistmoore</DIV> <P>Message Edited by ThrashVTX on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:20 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah yeah yeah, I tried to get it into place after being knocked up through half of the zone thanks to the new strat <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. You'll get your shot as long as the mob isn't stubborn again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.