How desirable are Sk's end game?

[runekee]

<DIV>Hi folks. Im just wondering how desirable are Sk's end game? I've never seen a raid guild advertise for any fighter spots apart from Bruisers in the early days. No one seems to need fighters- due to either the over abundance or the lack of role they play in raiding. My question from a low Sk is would it be unwise to level a SK in the hope that i'll get into a raid guild? Ive read about SK's not being selected to MT on raids too, which makes me rather concerned. I love the SK class, but i also would love to raid. If SK arent picked to MT all i can see them aiding a raid is through their disease debuffs and dps- and theres other classes which can do that better. Should i take the plunge and go for it with determined zeal? :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Grekath]

<DIV>im a level 70 shadowknight on the kithicor server, and im in a guild that raids 4 days a week. I can tell you, from my experience, having been in this and a few other guilds that raid, shadowknights have some value, i.e. disease debuffs and their AoE AC debuff line , pledge of armement line, but honestly ive only heard of one guild that had an sk as a main tank. Our tank is a fully fabled guardian, and when he or the beserker isnt tanking the paladin does. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadowknights can be main tanks but because our mitigation and hp is low compared to guardians and beserkers they almost never seem to be picked to MT.  If you want to level up i the hopes of being the MT in a raid guild, best of luck to you, they will do fine in the right raid setup, i just wish they had better aggro tools availible to them. Shadowknights, ever since live update 13, where our mitigation and avoidence was reduced and we were given life taps instead, have gotten a bad rap for aggro,  i was about ready to tank the x2 epic in forsaken city the other day, (death reveler or something) and a beserker joined at the last moment. I had better gear, more power, and more mitigation, the mob had a nasty disease attack and my disease resistance was around 7.5k,  so why didnt i tank?  i was told i wasnt gong to tank 'because we have a beserker in the raid"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hopefully you wont run into poeple like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best of luck to you</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> runekeepa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi folks. Im just wondering how desirable are Sk's end game? I've never seen a raid guild advertise for any fighter spots apart from Bruisers in the early days. No one seems to need fighters- due to either the over abundance or the lack of role they play in raiding. My question from a low Sk is would it be unwise to level a SK in the hope that i'll get into a raid guild? Ive read about SK's not being selected to MT on raids too, which makes me rather concerned. I love the SK class, but i also would love to raid. If SK arent picked to MT all i can see them aiding a raid is through their disease debuffs and dps- and theres other classes which can do that better. Should i take the plunge and go for it with determined zeal? :smileytongue:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am in a guild that raids between 2 and 4 times a week (situations depending of course for the actual number of days that we raid) and I can tell you that we do make fine raid tanks. You just have to have the raid set up a bit differently with a SK than a guardian. I am the MT for our raids as a SK and have not come across a mob (besides a t7 mob that is disease immune -_-) that I can not tank as well as any warrior. I have done some research on the actual defensive capabilites between the warrior and crusader classes as of late and really can only find a few disparities between us. We have the higher power pool vs. the higher HP pool of a warrior. This is part of the balance of the classes that SoE determinded at LU13. Warriors have more capabilites at protecting their group by taking hits for them (guards) where as we have the greater utility. Warriors have the temp MIT buffs where as we have taps which heal us and give us a great amount of hate for the damage on the mob and the direct heal on us.</P> <P>These seem to be the main disparities between us and warriors that I have found. It seems balanced enough for me honestly as it will fit different play styles. I believe that you will find it difficult to get into a good raiding guild that will let you tank due to the "Holy Trinity" concept that has been passed over from EQ1 and our bad reputation from those that do not know how to play this class. This class is a challenge in every respect, but if you can learn the class' capabilites you'll find that we're actually a really powerful class overall. =D I would say that it's your choice. If you want to be able to get into a raid guild as a MT without any real trouble based on class, then go with a warrior. Not that they're better than us, but more-so from our repuation and the simplemindness with most guilds considering EQ1. GL, either way you go. I have played a SK since I started this game and would not change it at all. This is a fun class. =D</P>

[Ishbu]

Well I am no shadowknight but I am a guild leader of a guild that raids every night and, to be perfectly honest, an SK is one of the least desirable classes out there <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I am not saying they cant tank, they can tank just fine, but so can any fighter and the others bring more buffs/tanking ability/dps to the table than SK's do. If a guild is particular about filling their raid slots, an SK will not be high on the list.Sorry, but thats just the truth of the matter.

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>This new generation of SKs is just sad.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 PM</span>

[gnarkill]

well im usally off tanking or DPSing(i usually out dps bruisers and monks)but we are useful...except on Tarinax..[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is that crap?! my guild is just about to enter deathtoll and ill probably never see him....<div></div>

[Hicar]

<div></div>Am guild leader of a guild that raids 6 days a week and has beaten most raid content. And i am an sk. Often people think only in term of pure classes, that's why they don't understand the power of an SK. If only pure classes were any good, then you would have much less classes played in raids.What brings a sk to the table that is relatively unique : - mitigation transfert (along with paladins)- mitigation ae debuff. Some think that cause others can do it too, and sometimes better, that makes this spell not significant. Despoil M1 is a 1600 mitigation debuff on the encounter. That's very efficient. - disease  ae debuff- sta group buff. It's group. Usefull in any group, weither it's the MT group for higher overall HP to resist aes, or in the mage group to resist physical ae (think about vyemm)- str debuff. M1 str debuff is 73 str debuff. It's huge. It's efficient. I see the life droping  on the MT if i forget to put it.  You want a sk in raid for this. True we aren't the only one debuffing attack skills and attributes, but it adds up for more stabilization.- overall good dps. With a few good items and proper AA you can have nice spell and melee crit, and get nice haste and dps through self buffs and procs, along with group procs. In the correct setting a sk can go over 1k dps on single target w/o harmtouch or pet. It's pretty good dps when you bring other utilities.What makes a sk good to have even if many classes do better than him in each aspect : versatility. We are best at not much, but we have a wide set of options. We make decent tank for the day where you slacker tank doesn't log. We make excellent tank buffers, the best among the tanks. We bring procs to melee groups along with good melee dps which makes meaningfull to put us  in melee group. We bring hp and have good spell dps which makes meaningfull to put us in mage group. We have 2 rescues (rescue and harmtouch) which makes us good offtank or secondary tank.Pure classes don't have that flexibility. Ranger for instance. Imagine a night where you don't have a coercer, a zerk, a bruiser, a fury or a dirge to put with the ranger. Basically, you have a ranger with only his own buff to do his work. He will still dps but won't shine. A sk who knows how to play will make a good job in most situation, and that's what a clever raid leader should see in them.Edit for gnarkill : our debuff always sticked on tarinax, and now he is no longer disease immune. Nothing special about him anymore.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Hicarse on <span class=date_text>06-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:04 PM</span>

[Ishbu]

No offense, but why the hell would I have a ranger either? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Your exactly right, SK's can do lots of things but none of them all that well in comparison to other classes. If I want debuff's Ill get a shaman who can also buff and heal or a brigand who can also do t1 dps.If I need more mitigation, Ill get a paladin because in a pinch they do make a better tank than an SK for no other reason than that amend is much better aggro than any taunts that SK's get. The paladin also can function as a healer in a raid if they are good.Again with the sta buff, ill take a mystic or a necro. Not that anyone really needs stats. Heck, im a mage and in a group I cap out my stamina. SK's can be successful in high end raiding, any class can. Just in answer to the OP's question, they are not desirable. Easily my two least desired classes are SK and a ranger. Sk slightly more so because the ranger can do better dps than the SK can and other classes tank/hold aggro better than an SK. Ill be the first to say all you guys deserve some better aggro control and something to make you more beneficial to a raid though.Its sad, but its true <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Hicar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:No offense, but why the hell would I have a ranger either? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#6666ff">Cause they can pull without LoS, which makes some situation better? =) not there to argue about ranger, was talking about a straightforward class when it comes to fights.</font>Your exactly right, SK's can do lots of things but none of them all that well in comparison to other classes. <font color="#6633ff">You changing my word : it's not "none of them all that well in comparison blabla" it's we do them well, but some others do them better.</font>If I want debuff's Ill get a shaman who can also buff and heal or a brigand who can also do t1 dps.<font color="#6633ff">You use your debuffs in situations where you don't have a shaman or brigand right? you find them good enough to use them? you have them on your macro at all? They aren't any less good when a shaman or a brigand is around.You want to have a shaman and a brigand anyway for their debuff. You want a sk too cause their debuff stack</font>If I need more mitigation, Ill get a paladin because in a pinch they do make a better tank than an SK for no other reason than that amend is much better aggro than any taunts that SK's get. The paladin also can function as a healer in a raid if they are good.<font color="#6633ff">Amend is good if they put it in a high agro person. they might put it on say shaman if they are in the main group, but that won't make them 2nd in agro or anything. in a pinch, you want rescues.On the healing side : put your reactive on pull on MT, MT will have those heals and agro from it and the damage part. Put a paladin ward, and paladin will have agro.</font>Again with the sta buff, ill take a mystic or a necro. Not that anyone really needs stats. Heck, im a mage and in a group I cap out my stamina.<font color="#6633ff">sta from sk stacks with sta from mystic or necro. If you cap your sta, it means you can switch some sta gear for resist gear or hp gear, which is a good point. 54 sta from master buff is like 3 pieces of gear.</font> SK's can be successful in high end raiding, any class can. Just in answer to the OP's question, they are not desirable. Easily my two least desired classes are SK and a ranger. Sk slightly more so because the ranger can do better dps than the SK can and other classes tank/hold aggro better than an SK. Ill be the first to say all you guys deserve some better aggro control and something to make you more beneficial to a raid though.<font color="#6633cc">SK are desirable in a raid cause they add things other don't, and they are versatile class that won't waste a raid spot if they don't get the ideal group setting some other classes need, just from the fact that we buff and benefit from all types of buffs.</font>Its sad, but its true <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#6633cc">What is sad is that some people see 24 classes and would like to see 24 x 2 or 3 unique abilities that make each class "desirable", from the mindset that if you aren't the ultimate best at something you are not worth anything.</font><hr></blockquote>Now, if you want to give me some more utility, i take. For sure i would trade dps for debuffs anyday.</div>

[Ishbu]

Actually there are debuff caps. A shaman using the right aa lines can hit the disease one and a brigand can hit it on their own as well, so no the SK isnt really useful there (and that doesnt even mention necro's and dirges that significantly debuff it as well as bring other things to the table) :/With relic gear so abundant at non end game raiding, no end game group is going to need to stack sta buffs to swap out for resist gear, their resists are going to be high enough as is. Heck I gain stats when I put on any gear for any resist.We had an SK in guild for a while. Since we are a min/max guild we replaced him with a zerker. It is better. More dps, more dps group buffs, better aggro when they need to tank. In the most efficient end game raids, each slot needs to be bringing something to the table that makes them more useful than someone else. Im sorry, but SK's do not have anything like that as there are always someone out there that can do what they do better.Im not here to argue, Im just trying to give the OP a truthful answer. Im not disputing that any class can be played well and do things to help the raid. Im just saying that it doesnt matter if your the best SK in the world, there are other classes that are able to do those things better and, as the leader of an "end game" guild, a SK is not desired at all.

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Listen, this very argument should tell u that SKs r only like 50%  desirable end Game. have you Ever seen this kind of post on the Zerker Board?... Templar?... Defiler?... Are Dirges useful Endgame raid?... iv never seen any1 post that in those forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SKs r like #3/4 in line for Any ability or senario End Game. Tank? 4th ,Debuffer? at least 6th ,Healer? Ha! ,Buffer? HA! DPS? Mediocre. THAT is the Problem. We do not excel at anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is the Point Ishboo is trying to make,  Given the Small 24 man Raid, IF ur guild strives for Top place and Maximum Effeciancy such as his guild does, SKs do not have a spot in it. We r Ineffecient in too many areas. Therefore there is no slot in a raid if all other classes r avaliable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and Jaaghica, Would u be in ur raids if u had pick of all other classes?.. and not the guild leader?. its EZ to pick yourself for a slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy Izbad</DIV> <DIV>70 SK/Armorer</DIV>

[x82nd77]

<DIV>I am glad there are the "uber" min/max guilds out there that do that kind of raiding... gives the rest of us storys to read and walkthrews when we get to things, however I am always glad when reading a post like this that I never went that route. I am happy being a jack of all trades even if I cant master one. </DIV>

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>psheets wrote:<DIV>I am glad there are the "uber" min/max guilds out there that do that kind of raiding... gives the rest of us storys to read and walkthrews when we get to things, however I am always glad when reading a post like this that I never went that route. I am happy being a jack of all trades even if I cant master one. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Thats a good thing. I dont think anyone will argue that SK's cant be fun to play and be useful. The OP was just asking about the end game, and thats kind of my thing in this game so I figured id throw my opinion out there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MeridianR]

I take comfort in knowing that my class is at least better off then Shadowknights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <div></div>

[Dogm]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>This new generation of SKs is just sad.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 PM</span>

[mikeyswizz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>I take comfort in knowing that my class is at least better off then Shadowknights <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>True, but I take comfort in knowing that i am not a Paladin. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFE

[Coica]

this thread had some value... somewhere. thanks for giving your "opinion"  high end raid dude ( sorry, forgot the name). if I was looking to play that way I would probably not have rolled an SK. so I guess thats good to know for the OP. but I am also glad that I picked this class. it suits me to a T and I even played a SK to 30 on test and on the PvP server ( nagafen ) before I rolled on Butcherblock. I aint looking back! <div></div>

[Hicar]

If you are in a min max guild with always the right classes online all the time, then ye, probably sk isn't the best shot. But how many guilds like this are thre? and are they the only one experiencing the end game. As i said my guild beat most of the content, especially instance. That means we are a serious guild with players that have irl constraints like jobs and such. We did not beat constesteds yet cause we don't have a shot at them, but we beat tarinax, venekor, and farming all instances every week. That means also that everyone isn't online every night. Which means that for us, some versatily is important.About me picking a raid spot cause i am the guild leader, well, you don't know me and you can't know if i am an egoistic brat that want to look cool with an uber class name or if i am someone that consider the best for the group. So i'll grant you that it's a pertinent question. My answer is that i stick with sk since release. I probably get the best of it cause i have next to the best gear available in most slots and several fableds per slot. But if i felt utterly unneeded and a weight for my guild to achieve what it needs, i would have swaped chars long ago.So as i said, for a guild that is serious about raiding all high end content but is more concerned about having balanced raids when there is some variation among the people online than about finishing an instance if 20 less mins, sk is desirable. Of course, one night you'll miss debuff and think that you miss a brigand / swash (depending on which type of debuffs). The night after you'll miss tank buffing and think where is my paladin. Or i miss a MA, where is my 2nd guard / zerk. Miss dps and think would be nice if you had one more dps. A sk can fill those spots fairly and make the lack less obvious, along with continue to contribute with his other aspects.Ishboo, in his min / max setup isn't talking about high end content, but about his particular set up where there is no room for versatility.<div></div>

[Ishbu]

No I am talking about high end content. Im sorry, but KoS has really distorted peoples views of what being an end game guild is. The instances are a joke even compared to instances of the past. I would say if your not getting Chel'drak down below 90%, you are not endgame. If you do not kill a contested a week, you are not endgame. The end game guilds are the ones who did the instances months ago and/or the first day they came out. Getting into deahtoll after all strats have been out and the mobs were instanced is not end game, thats the middle of the raiding game. That is not to say your not a raiding guild or your not successful in your own way. It certantly wouldn classify you as end game though. If I new to this game and come out saying I am a raider I want to be in an end game guild, im not looking for the guild that raids everything successfully months after others have, im looking for the guilds that are among the first doing so. You have your end game guilds that are strict about things. Only certain types of people get in and in very limited numbers and classes.You have your raiding guilds who are more leniant. They still have limits but they have larger member bases than the end game guilds and are willing to make exceptions on classes for friends and/or people they find fun to play with/good.Then you have your casual/family raiding guilds. They raid, they are often successful but they do it with whomever is there and chooses to show up. If you dont want to go, no big deal. If we have 12 fighters, so what? Lets put it this way. Your a guild leader, im a guild leader. If I were an SK, I would have booted myself from the guild because I would be taking up a spot and holding them back. Before LU24, I was preparing to switch full time to my alt because there was a chance that a conjuror would be completely useless in a fight compared to an equally skilled wizard. Thats what end game guilds do, your friends in a sense, but when it all boils down, its all about the guild and whats best for them.

[erimus]

Hicarse Wrote: <HR> <FONT size=2>If you are in a min max guild with always the right classes online all the time, then ye, probably sk isn't the best shot. But how many guilds like this are thre? and are they the only one experiencing the end game. As i said my guild beat most of the content, especially instance. That means we are a serious guild with players that have irl constraints like jobs and such. We did not beat constesteds yet cause we don't have a shot at them, but we beat tarinax, venekor, and farming all instances every week. That means also that everyone isn't online every night. Which means that for us, some versatily is important.<BR>........<BR>So as i said, for a guild that is serious about raiding all high end content but is more concerned about having balanced raids when there is some variation among the people online than about finishing an instance if 20 less mins, sk is desirable. Of course, one night you'll miss debuff and think that you miss a brigand / swash (depending on which type of debuffs). The night after you'll miss tank buffing and think where is my paladin. Or i miss a MA, where is my 2nd guard / zerk. Miss dps and think would be nice if you had one more dps. A sk can fill those spots fairly and make the lack less obvious, along with continue to contribute with his other aspects.<BR><BR>Ishboo, in his min / max setup isn't talking about high end content, but about his particular set up where there is no room for versatility.<BR></FONT> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=2>Jaaghica - Redemption- Runnyeye </FONT></DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>/agree</P> <P>The Question is, how is the SK end game?  Answer: It depends.  It depends on what type of guild your are in,  it depends on how well you play your class. </P> <P>I can tell you that my guild rolls with 2 SKs on our raids and we easily take all T7 content.   We arent the "Uber Guild" of the server, we only raid 3 nights a week, however our success obviously illustrates that fact that with the 24 person raid,  an SK taking a slot is not wasted. </P> <P>I have a hard time hearing someone say that ANY class is not a desired class to have on a raid.  I think that we have slid every class into our raids and still managed to be successful.  I think what matters is that the person behind the box knows what the hell they are doing more than anything, a person that knows how to mesh well and compliment their guildmates playing style.  There are just way to many variables to say that one particular class sucks more than another when it comes to raiding.</P> <P> </P>

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<P>Well.... as much as I hate this dead horse and the fact that there is nothing left of it ... I will put my 2cp in here.</P> <P>SK's and end game raiding is simple and this goes for all classes ... PLAYER SKILL!!!!<BR><BR>I am a 70 SK in an extremely small guild and do alot of raiding with alliances. I have never been asked to leave a raid for another class. I have been in the MT group 9 out 10 times because of my skill. Am I in Fabled gear.. no. I have 2 pieces. Is my gear all Legendary and above ... no. Are my spells at A3 and above ... Yes. Do I know my class .. Yes. </P> <P>Before you say ... well your lucky or well this class or that class can do it too, perhaps they can but we are not the "in a pinch" class infact we are more well rounded and bring more goods to the table than many do. </P> <P>You can be a Zerk, Guardian, Dirge or whatever and bring a wide assortment of tools to the raid and or group *depending on play style* but those tools won't do you any good if you lack SKILL!<BR><BR>I have seen other Plate tanks, Avoidance tanks in better gear than myself and cause wipe after wipe in raid and group situations. I have seen Plate tanks in poor gear and not wipe because of skill. </P> <P>Alot of the encounters that we face require skill and a bit of strategy. Any SK, Pally, Zerk and what not, will agree if they are worth a grain of salt "Player Skill" is what its about. <BR><BR>I am sure many will disagree or agree with what I said but this is one of those posts that in the end will get locked because of the "flammable" nature of it. </P> <P> </P> <P>Edit. Dogmae I agree with you fully on your statement:<BR><BR>True, but I take comfort in knowing that i am not a Paladin. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0><BR></P> <P>/salute</P><p>Message Edited by melaine_dvarvensplitter on <span class=date_text>06-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 PM</span>

[Ishbu]

Why would a top end guild, guild anyone who isnt skilled?

[mikeyswizz]

<P>I think the point here, is that if you can make a raid with 24 players, and make the BEST possible combination, a SK probably wouldnt be there.</P> <P> </P> <P>SOE made 24 different classes, and a raid force that only holds 24 players. If every class could hold up equally on raids then you would want 1 of each class, which is not true.</P> <P>2 brigands? sure a couple warlock and wizards? why not. Some extra assasins and other mage? bring em</P> <P> </P> <P>But an SK wouldnt be one of those "perfect classes"</P> <P> </P> <P>And when you are in an end game raiding guild, you have the ability and option to try and make the "perfect raid"</P> <P>So no, we are not desirable in an end game raiding guild</P> <P> </P> <P>Can we raid? yes</P> <P>Do we do good in certain rolls? yea</P>

[Grimm79]

<P>Ishboozor I'm glad you arent taking yourself too serious man, respect.</P> <P>I myself wonder why people keep doubting/asking what our value is in this game, whe have our spot in raids, just like every class has it's spot. I think you will have to decide for yourself if that place/role is what you want to be playing. </P> <P> </P> <P>And if you are dead serious about getting a raid spot, spots on raids arent given they are earned, no matter what class you play.</P>

[Garlicyesterday]

<DIV>If you wanna raid and play a hybrid plate class , go for paladin....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a former Pally , i use to MT just fine on raids, then again i was fully fabled, but you will rarely see an sk MT although not saying its impossible, just from what ive seen and heard i guess</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again , if you want to MT on raids with a hybrid plate class , you better know your class extremly well, specific skills/taunts/stuns to use at good timing</DIV>

[Giral]

<DIV>besides if the Dev's give shadowknight's a Uber raid skill now , then everyone will just say "the only reason an SK is in the raid is becuase of the X skill the Dev'e gave them out of pity " (sarcasm,j okingly serious : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i Hear that we are suppose to get 5 new branched AA in expansion , think the dev's would be wise enough to make the 3rd one for Sk's an invaluable raid utility ? NOPE i highly doubt it </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       i firmly believe Sk's are supose to be a very rare bread of the game, this allow's the dev's to leave us as is, a very well rounded, tough class to play and master , but when you do, you can hold agro off almost anyone, all tank's lose agro , it's just that when an sk loses it player's have Heard about Sk's and Agro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, they turn a blind eye to the other tank's that lose agro and make excuses about How they lost it and why, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you can Dp's very well if you set your self up for it, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have 2 rescue's + a FD that immediatly drop's that player's agro , i have saved many people with it in raid's , and i MA sometimes in raid's , i will Peel off Named's add's , like in Lab's the MT pull's the named and his Buddie's , and i will peel one off at a time, first one with rescue, second with HT, we kill them and then finish up the named.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>acting as a Pulller , i can cast my reactive lifeatp grab a Named and run him to Raid and Fd , i live 80 % of the time, when using anyother class with FD , they usually bite the bullet from Damage </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>played correctly we do very good dp's , we can tank everything in the game, we are a great MA better then pallie's IMO, we do alot of thing's and we do them well, and imo you would always want one wild card in your raid, everybody else is set in stone, they have there obvious reason for being there , as said Why bring a ranger if thier dp's sucks? that is a Ranger's only reason for being in a raid , without dp's they are Totally useless, where as SK's are not totally useless they have many skill's that can come in handy, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i make thing's happen, i don't have to let my 1 raid specific ability define my character , my character is defined by ME and the way i use the many skill's i have to work with </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>say in real life , you need a toilet installed you get a plumber  , tile done you call a tile installer, window installed you get a window installer, painting you get a painter,    Or   You get a General Contractor who can do ALL of the above And then some : ), the general contractor Might not be as specialized in doin any one of the job's , but can do all of them sufficeintly  and he can do more thing's then they can , he can also do the electrical work, patch sheet rock, install a sprinkler system, etc......... jack of all trades master of non = Sk , it's not that 1 thing we do ,   It's all the thing's we can do  ,    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> BTW our guild raid group call's me a miracle worker : ) i can Peel agro , i can Fd people, i can Dp's , MT,MA, reactive ward, grant armor , call a pet, lure a Named and FD and live, intercede, Debuff,Buff, and So much more : ) , i have saved People, and raid's more than a Few time's </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if your looking for the easiest way to get into a raiding guild then a Sk would not be the easiest choice , BUT even as the UBER elite Endgame Raider on this form stated , He himself was going to re-roll becuase he feared that Soe was going to nerf his toon to hell, so who is to know If the New AA's wont give Sk's a Highly specialized Raid defining feature that would make Sk's have a definite reason to have atleast 1 spot in every single raid , you just never know what's going to happen : ) that's why it's always good to have an sk around we are prepared for just about anything : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Giralus on <SPAN class=date_text>06-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:23 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>06-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>This new generation of SKs is just sad.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dogmae wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Giralus wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>so who is to know If the New AA's wont give Sk's a Highly specialized Raid defining feature that would make Sk's have a definite reason to have atleast 1 spot in every single raid , you just never know what's going to happen : ) <hr> </div></blockquote>Look at the past 5 or so Live updates, and see how many fixes to SKs there are.  We barely mentioned in changes where Paladins/Guardians/Monks/Zerkers/Bruisers get listed many more times then us.   SOE seems to have forgotten we exist.  I have no reason to think that Sony will toss us a bone at all.<p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class="date_text">06-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Come on now, we haven't got jack either in the last 5 LU's either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>I may be a bit late on responding to this thread again, but hey, I have a life guys/gals. Here is the absloute on raiding, and no I'm not in an end game raiding guild because I would be bored a week after the expansions came out and end up quitting after the entire challenge was lost, there are 24 spots in a raid force and 24 selectable characters. I do not know why you , Ish, continues to put down our class thread after thread saying that we're useless in end game. Have you played a SK? Have you ever played with a SK? Do you know the exact strengths and weaknesses of the class? Do you know how to adapt to the weakness of any particular class? Do you realize that your big and bad guards and zerkers that you probably use for MT everything in the game have their own weaknesses? If we didn't have DPS worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], then why would I be able to pull agro from another tank WITHOUT TAUNTING? Why would I be able to take hits as well as a warrior class with the same MIT if we were useless?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a fact. I am a SK and have played this class since I started the game and I have seen probably more nerfs than you would ever think about with your pure classes that you have rolled. Do you know what? I am capable of tanking just as well as a zerker and guard. I have no problems with agro management because I know my class. If things get hairy on heals, I start healing myself like mad and help the healers out. Do you know why? Because A) Its a life tap meaning that I'm dealing DPS to the mob and healing myself at the same time and B) It's part of my agro management. I don't need or want the same threat out of my taunts as a warrior does because it would unbalance the fighters. I don't want the temp MIT buffs, if I did I would have rolled a warrior. If I need it, throw a fury in my group and that's 36 seconds that my raid force has to debuff the mob to make it look like a herioc. You think that guards don't depend on the debuffs from a raid?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What makes you believe that we are not capable of tanking as well as a warrior? Not enough HP for you, sry pal I have more power than warriors by default and I use that power to make up for my HP difference with my taps. I don't have the full fabled that you probably do or your guild MT and I can STILL tank. It's all about raid set up and player skill. To say that we are useless is pure ignorance on your part and I have no respect for that type of player. If you want to believe in the "Hold Trinity" and bringing nothing but pure classes on your raids, do it. But leave us the hell alone stating that we're useless when I'm sure that ANY DEV would agree with me. This is a well rounded class with a greater capability of filling roles in any group/raid situation than any other tank (besides our counterarts) could ever dream of. That's what this class is all about, being a jack of all trades. If a SK wants to tank better than the average of the class, then the SK has the option to spec himself/herself in that direction. Same goes with a SK wanting to play the Battlemage role or one wanting to play the buff bot role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go back to your own boards and leave this thread. I'm not impressed by your accomplishments at beating any mob in the game as you seriously do not understand the true mechanics of the game itself, just how to be at the right place at the right time with a raid force that was created when the game started. You have no orgionality with raid make up from what I can see and I would honestly hate to be in a guild like that, even if I did play a pure class as my main. This game is about having fun and facing the challenges that lie within. And sometimes those challenges require  a different tactic or make up than you might be willing to look at <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Now, leave this thread to those that DO play this class and KNOW our capability in a raid/group set up.  </DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so who is to know If the New AA's wont give Sk's a Highly specialized Raid defining feature that would make Sk's have a definite reason to have atleast 1 spot in every single raid , you just never know what's going to happen : ) <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Look at the past 5 or so Live updates, and see how many fixes to SKs there are.  We barely mentioned in changes where Paladins/Guardians/Monks/Zerkers/Bruisers get listed many more times then us.   SOE seems to have forgotten we exist.  I have no reason to think that Sony will toss us a bone at all. <P>Message Edited by Dogmae on <SPAN class=date_text>06-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:15 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe you could take this as a positive sign that we're not broken and do not need immediate fixes as the other classes do. Just food for thought. Especially considering that most of the time when we're listed in the LU notes, its a nerf <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Wonder why they would nerf a class that is already broken? /sarcasm off

[runekee]

<DIV>Wow- i didnt realise how heated this post would become. I guess i wasnt as clear as i could have been. By end game i just meant any level cap raids really, i'm not one for min/max guilds, i don't care about being in the best guild in the server as i reserve my energy for being the best in real life :smileyvery-happy:.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really dont see why it's such an achievement defeating the content in a min/max guild before other people, surely it's the guilds which dont use the traditional/bog standard classes and defeat that content albeit perhaps a few weeks or months later deserve more credit than those who have just steamrolled content using the easiest combination possible?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway lets get back to the intended discussion and thats about what a SK brings to a raid- since you dont have any Sk in your guild ish then this thread really doesnt apply to you. I realise the SK life is a much harder one than a guardians- but guardians don't really interest me, and berserkers are in my opinion are heading for a nerf as their dps whilst tanking is  utterly crazy- plus theres so many zerkers around these days due to people realising just how overpowered they are. Ok so the SK brings usefulness to the raid, but doesnt bring any required abilities i can cope with that. I played a coercer and necro from release and know first hand how classes that arent desirable can change literally over night. Desirablity is completely situational. Things evolve and change in EQ2, just like in  EQ1. underdog classes become the desired classes. As it stands now i have a lvl 15 sk and am loving it. The first levels were hard compared to the other classes ive leveled but now i have the infernal blessing spell things have got alot easier. I rolled a erudite SK as extra DPS is always good, and the STA/STR stats are  relatively easy to raise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In terms of grouping- how do you guys find it later on? When i was a coercer and necro before the changes i could literally lfg for hours and not get a bite. As a tank i'm going to make more groups from scratch as dps is pretty easy to fill and there seems an abundance of healers on my servers nowerdays; however how do you guys find lfg as a Sk?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks guys. Your help has been invaluable. I dont mind playing an underdog class- in fact i gain more pleasure playing a difficult class to master.</DIV>

[Draq]

Just wanted to give a quick overview from a "mid-endgame" raiding guild. We do 4 Raids a week and got to DT befor the instancing of the access quest. We once had 5 activ  SKs in our guild and so we're not a min max guild and we almost always have too many people for a raid.Today all 5 SKs play something diffrent on a raid.1st quit the game after a few month of DoF2nd is now playing a Fury3rd is playing a Coercer4th is playing a Guardian and I'm now playing a warden on Raids. All of us changed or main raid char for the same reason: SKs didn't bring enough to a raid and we often had skip a raid evening because too many tanks were just inefficient. My advise for you would be to try out the "endgame" for a while with your SK and see if you like it, but you'll probably start a twink for raiding ..<div></div>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> runekeepa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow- i didnt realise how heated this post would become. I guess i wasnt as clear as i could have been. By end game i just meant any level cap raids really, i'm not one for min/max guilds, i don't care about being in the best guild in the server as i reserve my energy for being the best in real life :smileyvery-happy:.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really dont see why it's such an achievement defeating the content in a min/max guild before other people, surely it's the guilds which dont use the traditional/bog standard classes and defeat that content albeit perhaps a few weeks or months later deserve more credit than those who have just steamrolled content using the easiest combination possible?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway lets get back to the intended discussion and thats about what a SK brings to a raid- since you dont have any Sk in your guild ish then this thread really doesnt apply to you. I realise the SK life is a much harder one than a guardians- but guardians don't really interest me, and berserkers are in my opinion are heading for a nerf as their dps whilst tanking is  utterly crazy- plus theres so many zerkers around these days due to people realising just how overpowered they are. Ok so the SK brings usefulness to the raid, but doesnt bring any required abilities i can cope with that. I played a coercer and necro from release and know first hand how classes that arent desirable can change literally over night. Desirablity is completely situational. Things evolve and change in EQ2, just like in  EQ1. underdog classes become the desired classes. As it stands now i have a lvl 15 sk and am loving it. The first levels were hard compared to the other classes ive leveled but now i have the infernal blessing spell things have got alot easier. I rolled a erudite SK as extra DPS is always good, and the STA/STR stats are  relatively easy to raise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In terms of grouping- how do you guys find it later on? When i was a coercer and necro before the changes i could literally lfg for hours and not get a bite. As a tank i'm going to make more groups from scratch as dps is pretty easy to fill and there seems an abundance of healers on my servers nowerdays; however how do you guys find lfg as a Sk?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks guys. Your help has been invaluable. I dont mind playing an underdog class- in fact i gain more pleasure playing a difficult class to master.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would of sticked with the coercer.  They are a lot more usefull now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>If you plan to just do heroic content through the hole game, an SK would be very good if not better then other plate tanks.  However if you plan to create your sk for the idea of being MT on raids then you are waisting your time.</P> <P>As for mastering your SK, well there are certain things that you cannot master (e.g. damage taken from 74epicx4 nameds).</P> <P>When we raid we tend to be low on healers 3-4, so a guardian/zerker tanks.  I talked to my raid leader about my role, and he simply said (hes a mystic ftw) "Warriors are much easier to keep alive then crusaders, and cus we tend to be low on healers, we need a warrior to tank".  He also said "Its a shame, but I think SOE always intended Crusaders to be buffers"  </P> <P>I have to agree with him I'm afraid.  </P> <P>No I havent tanked in T7 cus of the lack of healers.  Oh and why get more healers just for me to tank, when we could get extra dps to end the fights quicker?</P> <P>Those Sks that are taking agro off ur MT, replace your MT as he/she aint doing the job.  Only way I pull agro off our MTs, is if I do a 12K+ HT nuke.</P> <P>Some of the SKs that are complaining in here have done the harder raid zones in T7 and they know, as do I, that a Warrior is the most affective and hassle free choice to make for MT. </P> <P>I for one am thinking of leaving the game, as there is no point in being a Tank if you are 4th in line for tanking, and I'm sick of playing this game on "very hard" mode.</P> <P>Plant</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[DUNN]

<P>My main is a SK that hasn't seen a raid since right after  LU 13, well not really i have attended a few here and there.  My alt is my Dirge who raids all the time.  I play my dirge to raid and a SK fr groups.  I still get some declines from groups saying "oh we are not looking for a SK".  </P> <P>We can tank just sometimes it is hard to convince people to change the way they play to let the SK tank succesfully.  We can buff but only if the other tanks aren't around.  We can dps if a mage or scout isn't available but we are not first choice for any of these things. Do i play my SK ? all the time,  but if i want to raid i have to play my dirge.  </P>

[EnraptureE]

<P>As others have posted, its not that we do any 1 thing great, its that we do many things decently.  We can very easily, in the span of 10 secs go from tank to dps or both by stance, couple gear changes & target buff cancels.  We live though ae's better than the other classes due to plate & hps (IE just having a ton of scouts doesn't make them necessarily the ones that live the longest).  We are great at doing AE dmg usually without pulling agro.</P> <P>I'll end with, you want at least 1 SK in the raid, just like you want at least 1 of all the classes in the raid, for their collective either huge uniqueness, or subtleties that stack up in the end.  You wouldn't want 3 illusionists, 3 paladins, 3 guardians or 3 troubaders, but you want at least 1.  Therein lies the problem.  Most guilds already have 1+ of the classes needed.  It goes with healers, you don't necessarily want 10 healers, or everything else suffers from lack of dps to tank.  I know we generally have 6-8, dependant on raid target.</P> <P>The hope that you do have, is that it doesn't take much to get another guild going.  As time goes on, guilds get larger, slowly & sometimes you end up turning away more and more & thats when some break away.  It gives you have the good chance to get in, just like the guard, zerk, coerc, dirge, all small in numbers.</P>

[Haavo]

I have a lv51 sk alt. When I learned of our raid effectiveness, I was seriously considering rerolling my fighter as a zerker. I had a full set of pre-nerfed cobalt, too. If I'd read this post before hand and gotten a bit more enlightened, I wouldn't have attempted to go against the odds and attuned it all. Sort of kicking myself right now for doing that. SKs are a nice tank assist class though, I can attest to that. Though alot of groups are unknowledgeable of the SKs abilities and just regard them as a [Removed for Content] tank. If a group has 2 healers, then I'd rather have a pure dps class in the SKs slot, one healer and I'd more than welcome the SK for tank assist.In my experience though, I have consistently seen better SK tanks than the other tank classes except pally, I play Nagafen freeport. Even when I play my SK, I get alot of complements and added to friends list. I'm not sure if that's a common thing amongst tanks, but I get it alot.If I could do it all over again, I'd have to pick the zerker.<div></div>

[Kharz]

<P>Here is the simple answer~</P> <P> </P> <P>                     Not everyone is meant to beat games. T7 is as close to "beating" EQ2 from a raid point of view as you will get right now. Some people simply are better tanks then others. Some guild and raid leaders are simply better then others.</P> <P>                      What this means is if you cannot tank T7, probably just you or those around you. Every class page has people that say thier class is broken. Doesn't bring enough to the raid or there is no point for more then one of them. Guess what, reality check, you are not a good player. </P> <P>                      Could be that you need to try different classes and find something that you take easily to. Could also be that you need a mentor to show you how to tank raid material. Contrary to popular belief you cannot just step into a raid and tank well. There actually are skills, namely strats and communication that need to be in place. </P> <P>                      Our guild is a raid guild we have done everything from EQ1 Time, to MC and BWL in WoW and now starting into EQ2 territory. We have had Monks tank raids in EQ1. We proved a Druid in Bear form could tank all of MC in under 3 hours. Now we are proving that SKs are very good raid tanks.</P> <P>                        For those who think SKs cannot tank, ba-bye. Go re-roll as a Guardian, you'll be whining on thier boards soon enough saying how you can't solo. Or how more then one Guardian is pointless on a raid. All the same, bad players with forums access = whining.</P> <P>                         As for me I have tanking to attend to. :smileywink:</P>

[Giral]

<DIV>what can be done : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well IMO the Dev's could change the Sk agro AA skill, they should just increase our Agro , and make this skill a RAid worthy skill that would give Sk's a Raid Spot , and be equal to a Guardian or zerker's AA for Raid MT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>secondly they could tweek our skill's  and make us Way over powered for say 3 to 4 month's ,  it will be 2 years into the game in a couple month's , and we have always been 3rd or 4th or less on the Tanking list ,  would be nice for SK's to Shine for a while , and Then Slowly over the 3 or 4 moth's decrease the new Tweek's so we are equal with a guard/zerker MT raid , guardian's were way over powered at release , and look where they are now ,Still # 1 tank , so a Little bit of overtweeking for sk's for a few month's should get us some nice recognition : ) it worked for the guardians</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lastly , there just isn't any vocal power on the sk forum's , it's just the same 5 or 6 poster's over and over again  90 % of the time, we all agree that sk's need a little loving , but none of us see that happening LOL , and we are even scared we will get more nerf's for no reason , so best if we just Hide with what we have now and hope for the best HAHahahahahaahah,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have tried, begged,pleaded for the Sk's , frankly i am just sick of wasting my time,   it's quite obvious the Dev's read the forum's and they have read this forum and seen the problem's with the class posted by lvl 70 Capped player's that know how to play thier toon's ,   you would think atleast 1 post in here would get a tiny dev response about our current problem's , but why should they waste thier breath for the 5 or 6 sk's ? they would rather we re-roll like 80 % of the sk's have done and let Sk's fade away ,    and then at level 80 in a year they will give Sk's a Uber skill line and the 10 Sk's left in the game will have the last laugh , MWahahahahaha lol just kidding they will never give those 10 sk's anything 2 usefull</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Yeah, what ^ said. =D Go enjoy your newly founded class considering it's so much easier. As for me, I'm going to be getting ready to tank, once again, another raid. Enjoy the moaning guys. We can't tank, and I'm the easter bunny =D.</DIV>

[Beldin_]

Have fun with your guardian .. especially when you notice that every raid guild already has a guard and nobody needs a second guard <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Xartan]

<P>To answer your original question - "end game" being level 70</P> <P>I can tank, I can dps, I can solo, I can heal, I can train and fd my way through most zones (hey, ever heard of a guardian soloing riddle of the vault? When SoS was fully populated with mobs btw. I have, along with a bunch of other SK I know)</P> <P>On a raid I can tank, I can dps, I can debuff, I can backup tank, I can save healers with FD or fd myself to rez the raid, I can buff, I can heal (in fact I have outhealed slacker healers on raids before)</P> <P>No other class has the utility or versatility of a shadowknight. none. not one. NOT A SINGLE CLASS!</P> <P>As a shadowknight (that knows their class) you will be envied by smart players. I have inspired several people to roll SK toons for fun. I never, ever get bored of my class.</P> <P>You look tough, you act tough, and for *** sake you're just plain Tough.</P> <P>Want to dps? pick the dps aa's, int and stamina. I parse over 1K when I'm trying on a well formed raid. Want your tank to last longer? put me in MT group, with WIS line I have 68 regen to the entire group, +38(i think 36 or 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to all skills. Here, have an extra 425 mit while you're at it. And some stamina to look like you've got way more hp than me too. Don't forget I get disease debuff, mit debuff, str debuff, and wis debuff (god bless Agony). Wizard got aggro? no problem I'll just nuke it and tank away like no problem even if the MT ca'tn get aggro back, since every time I get hit I get the potential for more hate. Want your bruiser to tank? No way you say? Sure he can, with a SK in his group for the lifetap procs and extra mit to boot!</P> <P>I have changed many raidleaders minds with regards to shadowknights after one or two raids with them. Believe me... get your foot in the door and you'll see people's opinion change. And yes, I have heard the excuses millions of times. I've been stuffed in group4 several times on raids with raidleaders who just have no clue. Hey, they play guardians for a reason right? Move me to MT group and see a noticeable difference. </P> <P>For those of you who don't agree, thats fine. We don't care really. Go play your guardian and realize that unless you start your own guild, there's no way you'[re going to supplant the existing MT. And whats the point of a guardian in any other group than the MT group? Exactly. Throw me in any group and instantly it becomes much better. Can't say that for any other fighter class (maybe brawlers for dps buffs)...</P> <P>You wanna be tough and uber, make an SK. You may not get many superjerkraid invites, but you will make a name for yourself regardless.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Xartan on <span class=date_text>07-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xartan wrote:<BR> <P>To answer your original question - "end game" being level 70</P> <P>I can tank, I can dps, I can solo, I can heal, I can train and fd my way through most zones (hey, ever heard of a guardian soloing riddle of the vault? When SoS was fully populated with mobs btw. I have, along with a bunch of other SK I know)</P> <P>On a raid I can tank, I can dps, I can debuff, I can backup tank, I can save healers with FD or fd myself to rez the raid, I can buff, I can heal (in fact I have outhealed slacker healers on raids before)</P> <P>No other class has the utility or versatility of a shadowknight. none. not one. NOT A SINGLE CLASS!</P> <P>As a shadowknight (that knows their class) you will be envied by smart players. I have inspired several people to roll SK toons for fun. I never, ever get bored of my class.</P> <P>You look tough, you act tough, and for *** sake you're just plain Tough.</P> <P>Want to dps? pick the dps aa's, int and stamina. I parse over 1K when I'm trying on a well formed raid. Want your tank to last longer? put me in MT group, with WIS line I have 68 regen to the entire group, +38(i think 36 or 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to all skills. Here, have an extra 425 mit while you're at it. And some stamina to look like you've got way more hp than me too. Don't forget I get disease debuff, mit debuff, str debuff, and wis debuff (god bless Agony). Wizard got aggro? no problem I'll just nuke it and tank away like no problem even if the MT ca'tn get aggro back, since every time I get hit I get the potential for more hate. Want your bruiser to tank? No way you say? Sure he can, with a SK in his group for the lifetap procs and extra mit to boot!</P> <P>I have changed many raidleaders minds with regards to shadowknights after one or two raids with them. Believe me... get your foot in the door and you'll see people's opinion change. And yes, I have heard the excuses millions of times. I've been stuffed in group4 several times on raids with raidleaders who just have no clue. Hey, they play guardians for a reason right? Move me to MT group and see a noticeable difference. </P> <P>For those of you who don't agree, thats fine. We don't care really. Go play your guardian and realize that unless you start your own guild, there's no way you'[re going to supplant the existing MT. And whats the point of a guardian in any other group than the MT group? Exactly. Throw me in any group and instantly it becomes much better. Can't say that for any other fighter class (maybe brawlers for dps buffs)...</P> <P>You wanna be tough and uber, make an SK. You may not get many superjerkraid invites, but you will make a name for yourself regardless.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Xartan on <SPAN class=date_text>07-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/clap</P> <P>Couldn't have said it better myself<BR></P>

[Haavo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sarasoon wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Xartan wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>To answer your original question - "end game" being level 70</p> <p>I can tank, I can dps, I can solo, I can heal, I can train and fd my way through most zones (hey, ever heard of a guardian soloing riddle of the vault? When SoS was fully populated with mobs btw. I have, along with a bunch of other SK I know)</p> <p>On a raid I can tank, I can dps, I can debuff, I can backup tank, I can save healers with FD or fd myself to rez the raid, I can buff, I can heal (in fact I have outhealed slacker healers on raids before)</p> <p>No other class has the utility or versatility of a shadowknight. none. not one. NOT A SINGLE CLASS!</p> <p>As a shadowknight (that knows their class) you will be envied by smart players. I have inspired several people to roll SK toons for fun. I never, ever get bored of my class.</p> <p>You look tough, you act tough, and for *** sake you're just plain Tough.</p> <p>Want to dps? pick the dps aa's, int and stamina. I parse over 1K when I'm trying on a well formed raid. Want your tank to last longer? put me in MT group, with WIS line I have 68 regen to the entire group, +38(i think 36 or 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to all skills. Here, have an extra 425 mit while you're at it. And some stamina to look like you've got way more hp than me too. Don't forget I get disease debuff, mit debuff, str debuff, and wis debuff (god bless Agony). Wizard got aggro? no problem I'll just nuke it and tank away like no problem even if the MT ca'tn get aggro back, since every time I get hit I get the potential for more hate. Want your bruiser to tank? No way you say? Sure he can, with a SK in his group for the lifetap procs and extra mit to boot!</p> <p>I have changed many raidleaders minds with regards to shadowknights after one or two raids with them. Believe me... get your foot in the door and you'll see people's opinion change. And yes, I have heard the excuses millions of times. I've been stuffed in group4 several times on raids with raidleaders who just have no clue. Hey, they play guardians for a reason right? Move me to MT group and see a noticeable difference. </p> <p>For those of you who don't agree, thats fine. We don't care really. Go play your guardian and realize that unless you start your own guild, there's no way you'[re going to supplant the existing MT. And whats the point of a guardian in any other group than the MT group? Exactly. Throw me in any group and instantly it becomes much better. Can't say that for any other fighter class (maybe brawlers for dps buffs)...</p> <p>You wanna be tough and uber, make an SK. You may not get many superjerkraid invites, but you will make a name for yourself regardless.</p> <p>Message Edited by Xartan on <span class="date_text">07-03-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:30 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>/clap</p> <p>Couldn't have said it better myself</p><hr></blockquote>I have a 51 Sk alt, up until this point I was a bit leary on rerolling as a zerker....but upon reading this, maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'll stick with it. I'm in a good raiding guild so chances are my alt will be given an opportunity instead of thrown to the side like I always hear about in raid guilds.Good post, man.</div>