What can be done to improve the SK, Stop flaming and give some ideas!

[shamansplag]

<DIV>When I first rolled a SK if thought that they would tank less then a Guard & Zerker, and because they took more dmg they would use their spells to heal the difference for a wash with added DPS.  The pro of this was, like the brawler, greenies would be MUCH easier (brawlers because of avoidance and how lvl change the effect of certain stats/abilities) and Reds would hit much harder (where the dmg healing ability would be insignificant, giving the guardian and the zerker the edge.)  </DIV> <DIV><BR>Problem is, that we do NOT heal enough to offset the lower level of Mit & Avoidance, and we have no way to keep aggro.  I feel, developers try to make the classes different always picking a different angle, and ours was Damage Shield Threat.  Great on paper, sucks in play.  That added to the fact that we blow through our mana too fast when trying to heal the dmg that would have normally been absorbed or avoided by Zerkers and Guards and we have an issue.  Here is my idea, and its just one that I would say may fail once moved from paper to play:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make the proc that we have include a mana component, and add a swing speed buff component.  Result, we swing faster (same DPS) but now we have more chances to proc our heal (offsetting the dmg we took due to lower mit) and now the mana component draws some mana (hurts the enemy because they have slightly less mana and we now have a bit more mana to now cast a dd resulting in a bit more DPS over the long haul.)  Maybe also have the % scale with the quality so Ap is 6% and scales to 14-18% proc rate at Master.    This should make us want to swing away, and will make us more of a "mana/hp funnel" that I would have imagined us to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding taunts (The real issue on making us primary tanks), the increased dps we have from procing a mana drain will help dps threat and help us to have a bit more mana for taunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding our pets, increase the timer, and increase our chances of getting a tainted essense from 2% to 5% (I have to group for a while to build up enough to go do some soloing and questing).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, the other issue I see is our diverse stat usage.  Int for spell dmg, Str & Wis for mana (and physical dmg), Sta for Hps, and Agi for avoidance.  Remove the Wis component to the mana pool component so we will have more mana (Again More mana w/mana tap proc = faster regen and larger pool = MORE DPS.  IMO we should be better at 1 target dps then a zerker, Zerkers the god of AE dmg, and Guards the god of taking the dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last part is I guess open ended, what do we do about Raid usefullyness?  Maybe at a later lvl a Damage Shield that will proc a AE drain life/mana.  So in a RAID they would want the SK to cast this buff on the main tank that may proc an AE tap Heal (resulting in taunting and a bit of a heal/mana bump.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am I crazy or on crack, probably!  But they are just some ideas...  What do you want to see to fix our class (not to make ubber) just better at our true class design.?.</DIV>

[Gorl]

Add a darkness line like in eq1, snare dot.  Yes i know these would aid us in PvP, but since we have no range attack anymore while moving, like other fighter and their bow and knives, we could then slow the person running away.We could use another buff line to fill that 5th cont. slot.  4/5.. good planning there.  Have a life tap buff, add a power tap buff.Prehaps a long range melee weapon.. something with a chain that would allow us to hit something 2 or 3 times the distance of normal melee weapons.Improve our spell animations... more dark looking.Prehaps make the pet permanant but with out any control... if follows us and attacks what we attack, we cannot give it comands.Or put it on a 3-5 minute timer, I like seeing my little buddy try to help me out in battle.  30 seconds is such a short time for me to enjoy his company.Work out some way for us to be good tanks against diseased mobs (paladin divine??), else [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is the point of adding that large disease resist to our defensive stance...Great now the mob cannot hurt me and I cannot hurt it... another smart idea there.Mention many times before... whats up with are power pool... I was under the impression that we were to have the largest power pool... I guess a couple hundred more points than other fighters is considered more... Than why not make brawlers have a few hundred more hp than other fighters... That would give the balance...  Simple examaple.  Warriors  2000hp, 2000power - Brawler 2500hp, 1500power, Crusader - 1500hp, 2500power...  Again only an example.Shadow Knight decription mentions causing fear in our enemies... what fear did you mean by this... I see no fear, are we deadly tanks? no... Are we masters of disease? no... Do we have fear spells? no...  Only fear I see is Sk becoming exticint.As for the anger and waith lines... since I now have to stand still and focus in order to cast them.. One would think that those spells would then inflict greater damage... But I guess not...We all know that Guardians and Zerkers make the best solid tanks for absorbing damage.. That is a given.We all know Monks and Brusiers avoid alot and hit alot...Make Sk and paladins the taunt masters... Give us the ability as Crusaders to be able to out taunt the others if we so desire... just cause we can does not mean we alway should or will... but seeing as we trail behind in tanking ability, make us the master aggro managers...  I have no problem not tanking, if the dumb guardians want to get the crap beat out of him, I cool with that...  Just let me impose fear in my enemies...<div></div><div></div>On a side note, add taunts to the mobs...  they need to protect their healers and casters too...  Would be great fun not being able to go after the healers and casters in encounters as easily as it is now...Flame On!

[luunch]

the aggro issue with sk's is going to forever to be an issue. people says it needs help people saying it doesnt i agree we have to work harder on our aggro than others and i'll leave it at that.as far as wishful thinking for my thoughts on an sk. nothing really screams hey im evil,intimidating,(a tank?) i would like to see some of the following1.) a passive skill that when a shadowknight engages an opponent it hinders the mobs/players some how. for example decresses str or stam(a % chance to fear) whatever.. the longer the fight the more it does.2.) a self buff/passive buff kinda like the gribe of a warrior or the group transfer aggro of a paladin. example: a darkness or blindness or disease cloud or fear, that takes a decent amount of mana for every second or so its up but it increases aggro the same as gribe does or more.3.)  IMO sk's arent a group friendly class and you can go back and fourth on this all day, but i consider a SK a defender of freeport. just like a paladin is a defender of [Removed for Content] i would suggest maybe a mana tap that distributes it to the group. make us a little more helpful/desireable in raids4.)  an increase in lifetap heals would be awsome. pally's get some mean heals and they can cast it on others. i dont think a boost in self only heals is going to be extreamly unfairthats all i got for now.<div></div>

[troodon]

<P>1) Look at our power consumption, there's something very wrong with it.</P> <P>2) Voice line from EQ1.  Aggro buff, make it a single target group or raid buff, incase we aren't MT.  Our Amends equivilent.</P> <P>3) Another encounter taunt would be ideal.  Seriously, I cannot keep multi-mob encounters off of a Warlock to save my life (or more appropriately, his life).  When the stun/stiffle changes go live I'm going to be losing a lot of Warlocks.</P> <P>If they don't want to give us another encounter taunt, at least give us the Terror line from EQ1.  Another single target aggro spell, we could use that too.  I'm asking for taunts because, you know, they turned us from the ultimate aggro guys of EQ1 to the crappy aggro guys of EQ2. It's weird that dark, terrifying knights can't anger their enemies... at all......</P> <P>Seriously, our description on the main website "wreak fear, hate, and despair upon all who would oppose them" makes me laugh.</P> <P>4) Ranged weapon would be nice since they made our spells interruptable **cough**Nerfed our PvE to balance PvP which they promised never to do**cough**</P> <P>5) It wouldn't hurt anything to give Siphon Strength line a longer duration.</P> <P>6) Give Tap Veins the same radius of effect as our other AoEs.  It's weird having two different radii to keep in mind when using area spells.</P><p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class=date_text>06-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

[Kryptonix]

1. Cast on the run. If not cast on the run than a ranged weapon we can use on the run. If not that, then a root or better snare (shorter casting time). Or a mez would be awesome make the mobs stay frozen in fear.2. Bigger power pool, or better power taps. A direct power tap would be good to go along with our power over time tap. A power equivalent of the blessing line would be sick. Get power everytime you get hit.3. An ammends equivalent. That ammends skill pallies have, scales with their level, therefore it never ever ever gets useless. Its weird pallies arent the agro masters that they should be since they have ammends.4. Different kinds of taps. Would love an INT tap or WIS tap. An attack speed tap would be sick.5. Something to make use of our last concentration slot. Could be for the ammends equivalent. Or a procced disease debuff. Or maybe a power regen buff. A proc with an AE effect would be cool.6. Sick class weapons, a sword with a life tap proc. A shield with a nice power tap, or power regen skill.7. More AEs. Yeh I know we have quite a few already, but would still love more. I feel that going up against groups, is our forte. So more AEs please.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Our AA paths generated specifically for our class. From my understanding, this is going to be fixed in November so it's not that big of an issue. I'm not flaming here, but may I ask what AA paths that you all took? Mostly the ones that are having trouble with agro management. What skill lvl are you taunts and spells at compared to the DPS that you are bringing along with you in the group? </P> <P>As far as an Amends equilivant, give me a break ppl. Our life taps and DOTs have enough hate on them if you use them properly. Pallies received Amends due to the major difference in our DPS vs. theirs. The spell may seem a little overpowered, but it's not as bad as we make out here. Our hate generation is going to come from our Hate Over Time, our DOTs, direct nukes and our lifetaps (which give more hate than you may realize. Oh, and don't forget our debuffs. On the subject of lifetaps, do you realize that we receive double the threat out of those? We receive the threat from the initial damage AND threat from the direct heal that we receive from the lifetap. (If you don't believe that you generate hate from healing, pull without a taunt with a healer pre-warding/hotting/reactiving)</P> <P>I would love to see some of the ideas mentioned implemented to our class, but how overpowered  would this make us? Our power pool, yeah, maybe it needs some tweaking  as I believe that  I've seen a post here once about the disparity of our stats vs. the amount of power that we receive overall with capped stats. We have a mana drain. The sypons that I have seen mentioned many times on the boards, hey, not a bad idea. But how overpowered would we be if we could not only drain STR, but also MIT, attack speed, ect. ect. ect.?</P> <P>All of the classes need to be looked at, and always will, for perfect balance. Will this ever happen? Probably not, as it is almost impossible to not only base the mobs around our particular classes as fighters, as well as trying to keep the perfect balance between all of the classes. As far as I can see it honestly, if you spec your SK for DPS, then you're going to be able to push out some nice numbers AND you're going to have an edge that you didn't before with tanking. Try this AA  set-up and see if it will work for you:</P> <P>STR: 4/4/4/8  INT:4/4/8</P> <P>Whatever you do with the rest of your AA's, yeah, doesn't really matter if you're specing for DPSing and tanking at the same time. Proof enough for me was an encounter where I had 467  crits (might be a crit or 2 off, it is almost 4 am here), and held agro the whole time. I might also want to mention that this was not a herioc mob either, it was epic. Keep the ideas rolling though. Just try to keep in mind the true balance of the classes at the same time and not your own personal god of a character that you would like. If anything else, this can give some ideas to the DEV's for our AA paths if they don't have them chosen already <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P> </P>

[DudeSupreme]

<DIV>Mana is the biggest issue with me.  I burn through it so quickly even while spamming manastone and mana sieve.  I end up spending half the fight trying to regain enough mana to finish the mob off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems like the issue of our lack of darkness is gaining a lot of steam.  I agree. We don't have anything that really makes us stand out as evil like I had pictured when I first rolled an SK.  Even brigands at least have an AA that allows them to steal coin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The group issue is killing me lately.  Besides tanking, we have nothing to offer a group compared to other classes.  And even then, we are generally looked down upon as tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just trying to add fuel to the fire.</DIV>

[Xanoth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DudeSupreme wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And even then, we are generally looked down upon as tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just trying to add fuel to the fire.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>please try to fuel that fire as little as possible <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>As far as an Amends equilivant, give me a break ppl. Our life taps and DOTs have enough hate on them if you use them properly. Pallies received Amends due to the major difference in our DPS vs. theirs. The spell may seem a little overpowered, but it's not as bad as we make out here. Our hate generation is going to come from our Hate Over Time, our DOTs, direct nukes and our lifetaps (which give more hate than you may realize. Oh, and don't forget our debuffs. On the subject of lifetaps, do you realize that we receive double the threat out of those? We receive the threat from the initial damage AND threat from the direct heal that we receive from the lifetap. (If you don't believe that you generate hate from healing, pull without a taunt with a healer pre-warding/hotting/reactiving)</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im sorry but i have to disagree with this on the hate generated by our dots. While DPSing in either group or raid, I have not problem Chain casting every spell back to back, except for one instance.. Grave blessings and wrath - And its still slim, and it only alters the hate list a tad, so normaly i dont get aggro, it just hops.</P> <P>As for any other combo or back to back cast, Regardless even if its Pestilence, I still see Me not pulling aggro off of the tank. Now if there was double hate generation on them, I would pull aggro in instances while im pushing it, and clearly I am ;P. But unless thier hate is somehow buffered with us using taunts, I dont see record of it happening.</P> <P>i still believe our hate is dumbed down on our spells compared to what it should be, If we where truly at 1:1 hate and with the DPS we have, we would clearly control aggro, but thats not happening.. In the meantime will constantly check out different chains for any Hate impact, but right now there is nothing stopping me from going all out on spells.<BR></P>

[troodon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>Our hate generation is going to come from our Hate Over Time, our DOTs, direct nukes and our lifetaps</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You think anyone on this board was not aware of this?</P><p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 AM</span>

[Cichlasoma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DMIstar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>As far as an Amends equilivant, give me a break ppl. Our life taps and DOTs have enough hate on them if you use them properly. Pallies received Amends due to the major difference in our DPS vs. theirs. The spell may seem a little overpowered, but it's not as bad as we make out here. Our hate generation is going to come from our Hate Over Time, our DOTs, direct nukes and our lifetaps (which give more hate than you may realize. Oh, and don't forget our debuffs. On the subject of lifetaps, do you realize that we receive double the threat out of those? We receive the threat from the initial damage AND threat from the direct heal that we receive from the lifetap. (If you don't believe that you generate hate from healing, pull without a taunt with a healer pre-warding/hotting/reactiving)</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im sorry but i have to disagree with this on the hate generated by our dots. While DPSing in either group or raid, I have not problem Chain casting every spell back to back, except for one instance.. Grave blessings and wrath - And its still slim, and it only alters the hate list a tad, so normaly i dont get aggro, it just hops.</P> <P>As for any other combo or back to back cast, Regardless even if its Pestilence, I still see Me not pulling aggro off of the tank. Now if there was double hate generation on them, I would pull aggro in instances while im pushing it, and clearly I am ;P. But unless thier hate is somehow buffered with us using taunts, I dont see record of it happening.</P> <P>i still believe our hate is dumbed down on our spells compared to what it should be, If we where truly at 1:1 hate and with the DPS we have, we would clearly control aggro, but thats not happening.. In the meantime will constantly check out different chains for any Hate impact, but right now there is nothing stopping me from going all out on spells.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you time your AoE properly yes you can control the amount of hate you are generating, but I can easily pull aggro if I go all out. Maybe in a raid configuration what you say is true, but in a group situation is it not hard to gain aggro when going all out, especially fighting a group. <BR></P> <P>As for the 1:1 ratio. I agree, I don't think it is that simple.</P> <P> </P>

[Margen]

<P>In the group format I can pull aggro from guardians, beserkers hardly never and rarely paladins.  Raid format if dpsing I rarely pull aggro, but that is due to our MT group having both a dirge and a corercer.</P> <P>Things I would like to see:</P> <P>1)  We should be kings of Aggro in DEFENSIVE mode, our class description talks about hate, give it to us.</P> <P>2)  We could use more or better lifetaps for end game.  I personnaly would like to see our reactive be based on pct of hp's hit for versus a hard number make it self only if they want.</P> <P>3)  Some extra utility would be nice, I like the idea of a Int tap someone mentioned, plus that could help us in the aggro department since we are so INT based on spells.</P> <P>4)  Make Deathmarch more raid friendly please, plus has anyone else noticed it doesn't proc for some reason if pestalnce is up.</P>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cichlasoma wrote:<BR> <P>If you time your AoE properly yes you can control the amount of hate you are generating, but I can easily pull aggro if I go all out. Maybe in a raid configuration what you say is true, but in a group situation is it not hard to gain aggro when going all out, especially fighting a group. <BR></P> <P>As for the 1:1 ratio. I agree, I don't think it is that simple.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dont know, I just dont have any thing holding me back from either raid or group on casting. I do nothing but button spam nowadays at max INT/STR and with haste from STR AA I just sit back and watch the numbers fly.. If there was a timeing i needed to do, then there would be a chain that i could see that would pull aggro and would probably use that to an advantage while tanking, but there isnt .. If you know of a chain that would get aggro off the tank, put it down and will gladly try it. <BR>

[Nataenel]

<DIV>Full time pet with about the same hps/dps and longer recast timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fewer AOEs.  We're not going to be able to use them on raids wiht the changes to mezz.  Trim the 5 we have (yes, I still have Doom Judgement on my hotbar at 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to 2 or 1 and give us similarly powered Single damage melee attacks instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better power management - even out our power consumption so that we're similiarly winded after a fight as other tank classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shorten our casting time and/or remove some of our spells.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have our ward reflect damage back on the mob for 5 hits instead of what amounts basically to a semi-reactive for (up to) 5 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add some mitigation to one of our buffs - would go a ways towards us bringing something extra to a raid. As it is we give some Str and Sta.  A little mitigation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Re-work mob disease resists so that mobs who do lots of disease damage (the ones we should be tanking) are susceptible to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok ok.. I'm dreaming.  It's fun to dream though.   =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cichlasoma wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> DMIstar wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sarasoon wrote: <div></div> <p>As far as an Amends equilivant, give me a break ppl. Our life taps and DOTs have enough hate on them if you use them properly. Pallies received Amends due to the major difference in our DPS vs. theirs. The spell may seem a little overpowered, but it's not as bad as we make out here. Our hate generation is going to come from our Hate Over Time, our DOTs, direct nukes and our lifetaps (which give more hate than you may realize. Oh, and don't forget our debuffs. On the subject of lifetaps, do you realize that we receive double the threat out of those? We receive the threat from the initial damage AND threat from the direct heal that we receive from the lifetap. (If you don't believe that you generate hate from healing, pull without a taunt with a healer pre-warding/hotting/reactiving)</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Im sorry but i have to disagree with this on the hate generated by our dots. While DPSing in either group or raid, I have not problem Chain casting every spell back to back, except for one instance.. Grave blessings and wrath - And its still slim, and it only alters the hate list a tad, so normaly i dont get aggro, it just hops.</p> <p>As for any other combo or back to back cast, Regardless even if its Pestilence, I still see Me not pulling aggro off of the tank. Now if there was double hate generation on them, I would pull aggro in instances while im pushing it, and clearly I am ;P. But unless thier hate is somehow buffered with us using taunts, I dont see record of it happening.</p> <p>i still believe our hate is dumbed down on our spells compared to what it should be, If we where truly at 1:1 hate and with the DPS we have, we would clearly control aggro, but thats not happening.. In the meantime will constantly check out different chains for any Hate impact, but right now there is nothing stopping me from going all out on spells.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>If you time your AoE properly yes you can control the amount of hate you are generating, but I can easily pull aggro if I go all out. Maybe in a raid configuration what you say is true, but in a group situation is it not hard to gain aggro when going all out, especially fighting a group. </p> <p>As for the 1:1 ratio. I agree, I don't think it is that simple.</p> <hr></blockquote>I think that it might be. My only issue is not knowing exacty how much hate is gained by actual debuffs. If you ppl are really having a hard time holding agro during herioc content, then your group is not forming to your tanking style. Hate Over Time. Give us a few seconds in a fight and we have agro locked as well as any tank. I have learned in raids, not just my guilds raids but ANY raid that I am a part of as a DPS slot, that if I go all out if the MT doesn't have a hate generating class in their group then I'm toast. Group setings in herioc content, yeah, I don't group as a DPS any longer. I have been in to many groups where I went completly offensive and would pull agro off of ANY tank in a matter of 2 or 3 spells. AoE agro, yeah, there isn't a class out there that can keep agro off of me with groups if I open up with my AoE's. I've died countless times in raids because of this. Open up with the quick casting AoE DOT, the 2 sec DOT and Tap Veins and I'm getting my teeth kicked in so hard it's not funny.I honestly don't see exactly why you ppl are having such a hard time with agro management. I've seen my times with it and no, I don't hold agro on every fight in herioc content, but I don't know a tank out there that has honestly. A tank is going to lose agro once in a while, its part of the game. Wether it's your taunts not procing at their highest amount or your DPS critting at the wrong times, its going to happen. Once again, those that are teling me that I'm wrong with this issue, please provide your AA paths and spell lvl of your spells and taunts vs the spell lvl of your DPS classes that you consistantly group with. There is a stratagey for everything, and most of ours just requires a bit of time and timing on everyones part. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As far as the rest of the ideas, keep them rolling. I'm seeing a few great ideas out there =D</div>

[Cichlasoma]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I think that it might be. My only issue is not knowing exacty how much hate is gained by actual debuffs. If you ppl are really having a hard time holding agro during herioc content, then your group is not forming to your tanking style. Hate Over Time. </STRONG></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>The discussion was about stealing aggro from a tank, not holding aggro. </FONT></P> <P>Give us a few seconds in a fight and we have agro locked as well as any tank. I have learned in raids, not just my guilds raids but ANY raid that I am a part of as a DPS slot, that if I go all out if the MT doesn't have a hate generating class in their group then I'm toast. Group setings in herioc content, yeah, I don't group as a DPS any longer. I have been in to many groups where I went completly offensive and would pull agro off of ANY tank in a matter of 2 or 3 spells. AoE agro, yeah, there isn't a class out there that can keep agro off of me with groups if I open up with my AoE's. I've died countless times in raids because of this. Open up with the quick casting AoE DOT, the 2 sec DOT and Tap Veins and I'm getting my teeth kicked in so hard it's not funny.<BR><BR>I honestly don't see exactly why you ppl are having such a hard time with agro management. I've seen my times with it and no, I don't hold agro on every fight in herioc content, but I don't know a tank out there that has honestly. A tank is going to lose agro once in a while, its part of the game. Wether it's your taunts not procing at their highest amount or your DPS critting at the wrong times, its going to happen. Once again, those that are teling me that I'm wrong with this issue, please provide your AA paths and spell lvl of your spells and taunts vs the spell lvl of your DPS classes that you consistantly group with. There is a stratagey for everything, and most of ours just requires a bit of time and timing on everyones part. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>As far as the rest of the ideas, keep them rolling. I'm seeing a few great ideas out there =D<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>As for your discussion of holding aggro that gets brought up alot with your response of I never have this problem. Everyone understands that gear/spell lvl is a huge part of this game, but it is sad that SK's(or any other tank for that matter) should have to have master spells for DPS in order to hold aggro. I agree the masters should make some kind of difference but I don't think it should be that close of a percentage. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I.E.  SPELL/CA = AGGRO</FONT></DIV> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#3399ff>AP I   = 40%</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3399ff>AP 2  = 50%</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3399ff>AP 4  = 60%</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3399ff>AD I   = 70%</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3399ff>AD III  = 80%</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#3399ff>MASTER I   = 90%</FONT></LI></OL> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Now that is just pure pulled out of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] info up there, but I am not saying that is what it is or should be. It seems that the percentage of aggro hold is much lower. Someone who is decked out in all masters or ad III should not lose aggro very much at all. Nevertheless it does happen. </FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Cichlasoma on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cichlasoma wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <div> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ffff00"><strong>I think that it might be. My only issue is not knowing exacty how much hate is gained by actual debuffs. If you ppl are really having a hard time holding agro during herioc content, then your group is not forming to your tanking style. Hate Over Time. </strong></font></p> <p><font color="#3399ff">The discussion was about stealing aggro from a tank, not holding aggro. </font></p> <p>Give us a few seconds in a fight and we have agro locked as well as any tank. I have learned in raids, not just my guilds raids but ANY raid that I am a part of as a DPS slot, that if I go all out if the MT doesn't have a hate generating class in their group then I'm toast. Group setings in herioc content, yeah, I don't group as a DPS any longer. I have been in to many groups where I went completly offensive and would pull agro off of ANY tank in a matter of 2 or 3 spells. AoE agro, yeah, there isn't a class out there that can keep agro off of me with groups if I open up with my AoE's. I've died countless times in raids because of this. Open up with the quick casting AoE DOT, the 2 sec DOT and Tap Veins and I'm getting my teeth kicked in so hard it's not funny.I honestly don't see exactly why you ppl are having such a hard time with agro management. I've seen my times with it and no, I don't hold agro on every fight in herioc content, but I don't know a tank out there that has honestly. A tank is going to lose agro once in a while, its part of the game. Wether it's your taunts not procing at their highest amount or your DPS critting at the wrong times, its going to happen. Once again, those that are teling me that I'm wrong with this issue, please provide your AA paths and spell lvl of your spells and taunts vs the spell lvl of your DPS classes that you consistantly group with. There is a stratagey for everything, and most of ours just requires a bit of time and timing on everyones part. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As far as the rest of the ideas, keep them rolling. I'm seeing a few great ideas out there =D</p></blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div><font color="#3399ff">As for your discussion of holding aggro that gets brought up alot with your response of I never have this problem. Everyone understands that gear/spell lvl is a huge part of this game, but it is sad that SK's(or any other tank for that matter) should have to have master spells for DPS in order to hold aggro. I agree the masters should make some kind of difference but I don't think it should be that close of a percentage. </font></div> <div><font color="#3399ff"></font> </div> <div><font color="#3399ff">I.E.  SPELL/CA = AGGRO</font></div> <ol> <li><font color="#3399ff">AP I   = 40%</font></li> <li><font color="#3399ff">AP 2  = 50%</font></li> <li><font color="#3399ff">AP 4  = 60%</font></li> <li><font color="#3399ff">AD I   = 70%</font></li> <li><font color="#3399ff">AD III  = 80%</font></li> <li><font color="#3399ff">MASTER I   = 90%</font></li></ol> <p><font color="#3399ff">Now that is just pure pulled out of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] info up there, but I am not saying that is what it is or should be. It seems that the percentage of aggro hold is much lower. Someone who is decked out in all masters or ad III should not lose aggro very much at all. Nevertheless it does happen. </font></p><p>Message Edited by Cichlasoma on <span class="date_text">06-13-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:30 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ok, then to turn the direction towards pulling agro from a tank. If you can't pull agro from a tank while in offensive, then you're not really trying. I've stated before on either this thread or another, I can't play in a group  as a DPS because I don't do anything in the group BUT pull agro and end up taking a dirt nap constantly. For the love of god, STOP [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING.</div>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I think that it might be. My only issue is not knowing exacty how much hate is gained by actual debuffs. If you ppl are really having a hard time holding agro during herioc content, then your group is not forming to your tanking style. Hate Over Time. Give us a few seconds in a fight and we have agro locked as well as any tank. I have learned in raids, not just my guilds raids but ANY raid that I am a part of as a DPS slot, that if I go all out if the MT doesn't have a hate generating class in their group then I'm toast. Group setings in herioc content, yeah, I don't group as a DPS any longer. I have been in to many groups where I went completly offensive and would pull agro off of ANY tank in a matter of 2 or 3 spells. AoE agro, yeah, there isn't a class out there that can keep agro off of me with groups if I open up with my AoE's. I've died countless times in raids because of this. Open up with the quick casting AoE DOT, the 2 sec DOT and Tap Veins and I'm getting my teeth kicked in so hard it's not funny.<BR><BR>I honestly don't see exactly why you ppl are having such a hard time with agro management. I've seen my times with it and no, I don't hold agro on every fight in herioc content, but I don't know a tank out there that has honestly. A tank is going to lose agro once in a while, its part of the game. Wether it's your taunts not procing at their highest amount or your DPS critting at the wrong times, its going to happen. Once again, those that are teling me that I'm wrong with this issue, please provide your AA paths and spell lvl of your spells and taunts vs the spell lvl of your DPS classes that you consistantly group with. There is a stratagey for everything, and most of ours just requires a bit of time and timing on everyones part. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>As far as the rest of the ideas, keep them rolling. I'm seeing a few great ideas out there =D<BR></DIV> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>My thing is, not realy tanking, I have a gear set just for DPSing that boosts me to max int/str with group/raid buffs easily, and have the gear to balance out the two...</P> <P>With going full out DPS, and taunts left alone, I can consistantly Chain my spells with no concern of aggro. Right now its a good thing, I dont want aggro, im not there to tank.. and to be honest .. it would hurt the dps of the group/raid more if i where to go tank... a pally or war side bareing the in the meantime wont come do as much dps ..</P> <P>Now morrality and game balance wise, is it right for being able to chain cast consistantly and gain no aggro ? But on the other side of it, If they gave us more hate on our dps, would we take advantage of it ? Well certainly im takeing advantage over the DPS thing, and i guess they figure there would be less ppl takeing advantage on that vs, The more hate on our spells to slow down our DPS.. After all Sks Jumped from Disiese Cloud, to Heart flutter (other debuff spells) To Clinging Darkness and fear for aggro rather then playing with the voice and hate lines.</P> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DMIstar]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, then to turn the direction towards pulling agro from a tank. If you can't pull agro from a tank while in offensive, then you're not really trying. I've stated before on either this thread or another, I can't play in a group  as a DPS because I don't do anything in the group BUT pull agro and end up taking a dirt nap constantly. For the love of god, STOP [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just saw this, I have no clue what your doing or what you have, but Personally I dont pull aggro no matter the chain i do and no matter the damage output. and to top it all off, I never turn caress off the whole time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why you pulling aggro with out taunting ? Is strange. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DMIstar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, then to turn the direction towards pulling agro from a tank. If you can't pull agro from a tank while in offensive, then you're not really trying. I've stated before on either this thread or another, I can't play in a group  as a DPS because I don't do anything in the group BUT pull agro and end up taking a dirt nap constantly. For the love of god, STOP [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just saw this, I have no clue what your doing or what you have, but Personally I dont pull aggro no matter the chain i do and no matter the damage output. and to top it all off, I never turn caress off the whole time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why you pulling aggro with out taunting ? Is strange. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think I'm going to say this for the last time, you really don't understand the power of this class. In full offensive I'll come close to capping out both my STR and INT with the gear and INT potion that I use for the occasions. A combo of shelling out our spells is enough to override the amount of hate that any tank can build up considering that we DON'T have a deagro ability. The only way that tanks can keep the agro themselves is to either be a pally with amends on me, or have a pally in the group with amends on me. If you're NOT pulling agro while chain casting in herioc content with a tank that doesn't have a hate buffer, then you're not doing something right. This doesn't have to do with the caress line considering it only procs if YOU are hit and you don't have to taunt to accomplish what I'm talking about.</P> <P>This isn't comming from my days of having all adept 3 or higher abilities and spells. This stems from my days of running with a few adept 3's and mostly adept 1's with my attacks. Now my spells are adept 3 or higher and I refuse to play a DPS class because there is no point in my going DPS in herioc content. I can shell out the DPS during the group, but I'm also gong to be tanking just a few seconds after the tank pulls. This ends up in debt, big deal at lvl 70, and a bad repair bill for me -_-.</P> <P>Sry if I offend any of you, but you are not taking anything seriously but your own negative opinion of this class because somene tells you that you're not a tank. A lot of mis-conceptions go around about this class because it's a hard class to play and there are a lot of ppl that find the initial idea of it appealing. They get ahold of the class and never figure out what exactly to do in situations nor how to do their job in a group and it puts a bad taste in ppls mouths, which in turn gives the rest of the  SK community a bad feeling because they are told time after time that they're not tanks. We're not tanks, we're not utility, we're not DPS and we're just a completly useless class. Go hand that garbage to someone that is honestly going to take you seriously. I know why the DEV's won't answer the pleas for help that a lot of you toss on these boards. Most of it is nonsense and actually IS working as intented.</P>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DMIstar wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, then to turn the direction towards pulling agro from a tank. If you can't pull agro from a tank while in offensive, then you're not really trying. I've stated before on either this thread or another, I can't play in a group  as a DPS because I don't do anything in the group BUT pull agro and end up taking a dirt nap constantly. For the love of god, STOP [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just saw this, I have no clue what your doing or what you have, but Personally I dont pull aggro no matter the chain i do and no matter the damage output. and to top it all off, I never turn caress off the whole time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why you pulling aggro with out taunting ? Is strange. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think I'm going to say this for the last time, you really don't understand the power of this class. In full offensive I'll come close to capping out both my STR and INT with the gear and INT potion that I use for the occasions. A combo of shelling out our spells is enough to override the amount of hate that any tank can build up considering that we DON'T have a deagro ability. The only way that tanks can keep the agro themselves is to either be a pally with amends on me, or have a pally in the group with amends on me. If you're NOT pulling agro while chain casting in herioc content with a tank that doesn't have a hate buffer, then you're not doing something right. This doesn't have to do with the caress line considering it only procs if YOU are hit and you don't have to taunt to accomplish what I'm talking about.</P> <P>This isn't comming from my days of having all adept 3 or higher abilities and spells. This stems from my days of running with a few adept 3's and mostly adept 1's with my attacks. Now my spells are adept 3 or higher and I refuse to play a DPS class because there is no point in my going DPS in herioc content. I can shell out the DPS during the group, but I'm also gong to be tanking just a few seconds after the tank pulls. This ends up in debt, big deal at lvl 70, and a bad repair bill for me -_-.</P> <P>Sry if I offend any of you, but you are not taking anything seriously but your own negative opinion of this class because somene tells you that you're not a tank. A lot of mis-conceptions go around about this class because it's a hard class to play and there are a lot of ppl that find the initial idea of it appealing. They get ahold of the class and never figure out what exactly to do in situations nor how to do their job in a group and it puts a bad taste in ppls mouths, which in turn gives the rest of the  SK community a bad feeling because they are told time after time that they're not tanks. We're not tanks, we're not utility, we're not DPS and we're just a completly useless class. Go hand that garbage to someone that is honestly going to take you seriously. I know why the DEV's won't answer the pleas for help that a lot of you toss on these boards. Most of it is nonsense and actually IS working as intented.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>By the first paragraph of what this sounds like.. .Meaning is your not grasping it. One i know the full potential of this class, Im not sitting here under DPSing Rangers, Scouts and not going to toe to toe with Berserkers, Im sitting here out dpsing most pick up groups, Mainly every pally ive seen and grouped with and so on. at tier lvl 70 Ive had instances where ive blown away on damge. </P> <P>Most instances look similar to what ive been posting in guild:</P> <P>----</P> <P>Me 31378</P> <P>Tank 23367 </P> <P>------</P> <P>Me - 74,208</P> <P>Tank 56,362</P> <P>and goes on, regardless of Group or not.  There are no Hate debuffers on Me, there are no speacitly spells on these tests to go by. Ive been challangeing this for awhile now in this game. </P> <P>I dont know why your getting aggro, and why im not, But im just plain saying this is what it is. I know what i can do, I know what my limits are in different situations. </P> <P>and by the way your putting words in my mouth about the negatives about this class, I m just pointing what is, Ive been an sk since 12/1999 and not switching up now. </P>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>I think I'm going to say this for the last time, you really don't understand the power of this class. In full offensive I'll come close to capping out both my STR and INT with the gear and INT potion that I use for the occasions. A combo of shelling out our spells is enough to override the amount of hate that any tank can build up considering that we DON'T have a deagro ability. The only way that tanks can keep the agro themselves is to either be a pally with amends on me, or have a pally in the group with amends on me. If you're NOT pulling agro while chain casting in herioc content with a tank that doesn't have a hate buffer, then you're not doing something right. This doesn't have to do with the caress line considering it only procs if YOU are hit and you don't have to taunt to accomplish what I'm talking about.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>IF the full potential of this in a DPS situation is lowering it, then maybe you know something i dont.. I am at max most the time I achieve this casue my Base STR/INT is in the 450 Range, when in Group I normally atleast have one Buffed to 580 or so, and I have pieces of gear to lower the str and higher the int or vice versa to pan the stats out. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>I have done Several chain combos Without Deaggro or buffers to do this. The only one ive seen that affects (but does not give me aggro) was chaining Blessings then wrath, vice versa didnt do a thing. I did this three times to see if the results stayed, and they did but it was a minor effect, Two of out three got results. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>IF not doing somethign right is maxamizeing my DPS, then im guilty but right now your just assumeing your right.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Between last post in this, Im sorry i was fighting named... Now see this. I came back in Doellin the young nocked me off the ledge near the pool, and i run back up with the dragon at 73%</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>DPS log on that </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Coercer pet : 55222dmg</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Ranger: 29475</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Me: 24564</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>tank: 22177 and so on.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>I dont have amends on or such and did not get aggro, I matched his DPS from straight chaining. </FONT></P> <P>This isn't comming from my days of having all adept 3 or higher abilities and spells. This stems from my days of running with a few adept 3's and mostly adept 1's with my attacks. Now my spells are adept 3 or higher and I refuse to play a DPS class because there is no point in my going DPS in herioc content. I can shell out the DPS during the group, but I'm also gong to be tanking just a few seconds after the tank pulls. This ends up in debt, big deal at lvl 70, and a bad repair bill for me -_-.</P> <P>Sry if I offend any of you, but you are not taking anything seriously but your own negative opinion of this class because somene tells you that you're not a tank. A lot of mis-conceptions go around about this class because it's a hard class to play and there are a lot of ppl that find the initial idea of it appealing. They get ahold of the class and never figure out what exactly to do in situations nor how to do their job in a group and it puts a bad taste in ppls mouths, which in turn gives the rest of the  SK community a bad feeling because they are told time after time that they're not tanks. We're not tanks, we're not utility, we're not DPS and we're just a completly useless class. Go hand that garbage to someone that is honestly going to take you seriously. I know why the DEV's won't answer the pleas for help that a lot of you toss on these boards. Most of it is nonsense and actually IS working as intented.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Negative and what is going on, is two different things, your assumeing everything that is said is negative and trying to put in that people are downing the class. and Furthermore just ignoreing select things. You do have alot of information and you do look into a lot of things. But you are not the only one. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>THERE is never one way to play a class, There are people who have different play styles and view each class differently. I was not the SK tank in EQ, I was adept at Pulling and useing Utility to get rid of or to control different situations. I knew a couple others that was sorta like that on TP, and i know others that Where on the tanking end in that Game and they did it well. Those who Believe SKs couldnt tank in EQ, must of bypassed Furors Rant on Knights back in the LDoN days ...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Overall Sorry But i disagree only cause the game is telling me different, IF there is a chain that i have not tried and you know that gets aggro, please tell me and ill try it.</FONT>  <BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[DMIstar]

<P>Some More fun ... </P> <P>Me- 44211</P> <P>Tank - 21285 </P> <P>Sorry was an AoE thing ;P</P> <P>Me- 52920</P> <P>Tank 46948</P> <P>He getting better. </P> <P>Im not even going to post the other one... I have no need. </P> <P>Now im saying we are overpowered with DPS, By all means im not. I only get these numbers when im concentrateing on it. Example Last Labs Raid I concentrated on getting Voracious Soul Up on the tank and have it reach higher numbers. that and work with hex dolls. Needless to say my DPS dropped and i was averageing 3-6th on DPS chart. My tanking is even worse on DPS chart but i dont focus on DPS while tanking, ill leave that to the other classes that want. </P> <P>I guess everyone on the server cant play thier class to support me getting these numbers ... lol </P> <P>anyway this topic has been derailed and ill comment on Original Topic: </P> <P>Im stiill working on our lifetaps, and how much we gain on healing vs other classes.. </P> <P>Mini Labs run showed this on my total healing: (The first of many)</P> <P>73,033 (15 encounters) (52,019 was V.C, aka grave blessings leaveing .. 21,014 with other taps ;/ )</P> <P>Pally 1 was at: 49,208</P> <P>Pally 2 was at: 45,644 </P> <P>In Retro Spect, DPS: </P> <P>Pally 1: 570,165</P> <P>Me: 504,308</P> <P>Pally 2: 365,303</P> <P>My DPS lacked in keeping up with V.C each refresh... </P>

[Cichlasoma]

<P>DMIstar, as much I hate to agree with Sarasoon, it is possible to pull aggro. His version of that story is a little exagerated but it can be done. </P> <P>Single Target Combo</P> <P>Despoil, Agony, Abominable wrath, Abominable anger, drain vitae</P> <P>On a group of mobs try this combo</P> <P>Despoil, Doom Judgement, Unending Misery(oops screwed up the spell name), Death Circle, Pestilence, Death March, TAP Veins</P> <P>If you haven't pulled aggro with those then, it maybe be spell lvl related, crit %, or the tank just has that much DPS to hold aggro. It certainly isn't because he has enough taunting power. </P> <P>What is your AA config and what kind of tank are you grouping with? </P><p>Message Edited by Cichlasoma on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 AM</span>

[DMIstar]

<DIV>Will try that out, next chance i get, thank you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since Ive been more focused on DPS ive been going for those type aas, Right now im at max Crits on INT and im working on STR line into the Base Haste Ability. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Weapon WIse, Id prefer an Axe due to the haste boost, but my best axe, Axe of the Seer, thinks its a great sword currently ;/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks i Mainly Group with are Pallies and Guards, I dont sit back and let berserks and misc tank, unless Im tired and dont care (Rare) or testing out dumb things. </DIV>

[DMIstar]

<DIV>Ok tried them both out, as much as possible .. the single target nadda.. Though with the group chaining Despoil > Misery > Circle > Pest > Tap Viens > Easily gets me aggro no matter much of the situation so far. </DIV>

[Agamemno]

Well I used to think our DPS needed help too, now I'm not so sure. I seem to parse pretty good on (thus far) heroic content. Would like to see a touch more hate from our taunts though, I tend to burn power pretty fast when trying to keep aggro off of a couple of wizards or warlocks if I don't have an assassin in the group for hate transfer =POther changes I'd like to see but aren't game breakers:cast time on sacrement and blessing. Can be a right [Removed for Content] to get these off in pvp with lots of dudes beating on you especially If i have the AE dot ticking away, seems to break stuns before I can get any use out of them.I'd like to see our AA lines be more SKish, and less Crusaderish. Weapon dependancies are kinda lame too. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I wanna equip a symbol for for the love of all that is Unholy!And yeah, if i'm not careful in a group as DPS I'll rip aggro off of a guardian or zerker. Still need a good 2 hander... any ideas for a good 54+ 2 hand hammer of whoopass?<div></div>

[Xanoth]

<P>i still find the only real gripe i have with the class is lack of DPS if defencive stance, the loss of INT and how much we relly on it for damage is kind of annoying.</P> <P> </P> <P>there are ofcorse other things, but i put it down to balance, every class has a list of things they'd like, but that doesnt mean that getting them would be a step forward in the grand scheme of things in balancing the classes. its easier to enjoy the class the way it is if you dont focus on what you'd like to improve.</P> <P> </P> <P><hopes for more INT on plate armour in expansion> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[JoarAddam]

<DIV>One thing that would really make a difference for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change the death Death March proc on death to Raid or Group kill.  If I and my friends hurt it, and it dies, Death march should fire... not "if one of 6 people on a 24 person raid gets the kill shot"  .  Yes, still make the proc only work for the group, or hell, only for the SK.  I'm not saying the effect should be raid wide, just the kill shot thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That one little change would severely increase SK desirability on top end raids.  The occasional 1.4k parse would be nice, and raid strategists might actually put in the effort to use it effectively, then.  Right now, some doofus outside a group, who doesn't listen to instructions(damned button mashers), usually screws up the attempt to use this skill properly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xanoth]

a none raiding gripe i have with death march is that pet kills dont count...so if your grouped with a fury, they put their fire pet down, fire pet gets the death blow. no "on the march" same goes for dumbfire pet, or any other pet that isn't considered "in the group". fixing that would be a good start, making it useful for raids would be even better.