ShadowKnights.

[Alevyan]

<div></div>I have a 67 ShadowKnight on Lucan D'Lere, and recently I rolled a Zerker. After some serious weeks of grinding until my eyes bled, I've managed to raise my zerker to match the level of my ShadowKnight. And let's face it.. Something is seriously wrong here. Zerkers on a good day are able to match the DPS of a scout, of a damned SCOUT. And I don't mean Troubadors, I mean a slightly weakly equipped Brigand. But wait, doesn't that mean that they shouldn't be able to tank? Ho-ho! Not so my pretties, not so! Zerkers are the second best tanks in the game, and given the right equipment and masters can tank as well as any Zerker. Also, and get this my friends from the tree of the Crusader- Zerkers get blue AOE taunts. Not only do they get whacky DPS, powerful single target taunt, powerful group target taunt, they get a F.ING AOE TAUNT? This is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen.. But lets actually see about providing some counter arguments for this, and then dismiss them because they're completely invalid. <b>ShadowKnights can Heal. </b>Ugh, yeah ourselves, mostly and in mediocre proportions with the exception of Tap Veins which we don't get until the end T6. Our ward used to be decent, then it got rewired and is easily the most goofy excuse for a 'Damage ward' I've ever seen in my life. To counter-argue this point futher, Zerkers get a skill which actually increases their in combat regenration per tick by quite a bit as it levels up. <b>ShadowKnights can Nuke. </b>Yeah, once every 15 minutes, whoopee! Using the AA tree zerkers & guardians can heal themselves for 25% of their max health every 3 minutes. Thats not exactly a fair sort of comparison, but don't go thinking ShadowKnights get super cool nukes and thats totally amazing and exciting, it's not. Everyone has an ability to get out of a tricky situation once in a while. ShadowKnights do have the Wrath line, but the Zerker Rake line does MORE damage(yes, it does 3 successive attacks which usually do more damage than the Brigand double-cut line.) it's also on a similar 1 minute reuse timer to the Wrath line. <b>ShadowKnights can Evac & Feign Death. </b>So can Necros and they're teir 2 DPS with their own personal Tank following them around. Skills like Evac and Feign Death are useful but they're not exactly fight-per-fight events. Tanks are not utility. <b>Speaking of Necros, can't ShadowKnights summon pets? </b>Yes, we can, and they used to be quite cool actually. But LU19 saw them put on a 1 minute duration timer with virtually no defensive ability. They weren't nerfed per-say, but their coolness was significantly reduced and they add almost immeasureable DPS to the entire fight as a whole. <b>ShadowKnights get disease debuffs and their taunts also include dots, they're casters that wear plate, thats pretty cool, right? </b>ShadowKnights get disease debuffs attached to their group taunt, which is nice but it really adds marginal damage when compaired to when the enemy is not debuffed before you've applied the umpteen amounts of dots SKs get. One would think that adding a disease debuff to the taunt would make the taunt stronger. Not really. While I am a capable tank, I still loose aggro very easily to the trigger happy mage or the backstabbing scout, and sometimes the Harm Touch line won't actually turn the mob back despite it doing insane disease damage. This shows you just how ShadowKnights are barely ahead of the aggro curve when compaired to the rest of their group. This admittedly does make for exciting tanking but unlike WoW, most EQ2 players are far too stupid to use their deaggro spells regularly in a fight(<i>sorry, lets face it, most of you don't know how to control your DPS let alone reduce your aggro in a fight, then when you do pull aggro and die you blame the Tank trust me, it's not the Tanks fault, it's YOUR fault for not watching your dps. I'm currently working on a Brigand and people love me in a group because to the mobs: It's like I'm not there, but beating them stupid at the same time</i>.) The single target taunt is also a DoT, and a hate-over-time. Let's get one thing straight right now. How-over-time is easily the single most inane idea I have ever come across. Hate over time? So, if the Wizard pulls aggro, it might turn because you've applied a skill which increases the enemies hate towards you by 50 points every 3 seconds, while the Wizard is dealing out/generating 1,000 points ever second. Yeah, that skill is going to be really handy in a pinch. Zerkers have the ability to cripple an enemies physical mitigation which is more or less a debuff against their damage anyway, further negating this argument. Post LU19, the single target taunts DoT used to be really amazing because it would do X damage every .5 seconds for 3 seconds and seriously helped with aggro control, it was reduced to X damage every 2 seconds for I think 8 or 10 seconds. Not only this but as I mentioned: Zerkers actually get more taunts than SKs. <b>Well, the way it was designed was so that when Tanking, the ShadowKnight would offset his/her weaker taunts with DPS. </b>Once again, this argument would be valid if ShadowKnights really did DPS, but we don't. Well, we do but Zerkers do much better DPS anyway, and it really changes depending on a stance. No one is stupid enough to main tank in offensive stance because it makes the healer sweat like a pig. In defensive stance you can't even remotely match the damage you're doing in offensive stance to justify this "Counter it with DPS." One should also make mention that ShadowKnights and Paladins are also the ONLY tank class that has a use for every single stat provided to them, and having every one of them boosted is required to do anything. But at least Paladins get amends which more or less makes them decent tanks. <b>Well heck, maybe you're just a bad ShadowKnight/Well heck, I'm a fanboy and you're making a mountain out of a molehill and I hate everyone who points out something wrong. </b>First and foremost: I've been playing a ShadowKnight longer than most of you tots have been playing this game. I know my character class inside and out, I have that gift for knowing when aggro is locked down and like a good tank: I can sense the direction of a battle as it plays. I have two armor sets, not one, two sets of rare crafted T7 armor. One for DPS and the other for tanking. The zerker simply has the standard Xegonite vanguard. In DPS mode my int reaches 509. Thats 1 point away from cap, just one. In defensive mode my WIS touches 500 as well. Trust me, I know how to play a ShadowKnight better than you know how to tie your shoelaces. In summary, like all classes: we have our issues. But when you're a Tank who can't really Tank, and you're considered a DPS who can't DPS, or a healer who really doesn't heal, theres something wrong. ShadowKnights are being ignored and most likely will be for a very long time. Unfortunately, the devs believe that ShadowKnights have enough power as it is, given their small utility abilities, healing capability, plate wearing nature and a pet. ShadowKnights are jacks of all trades but are the masters of none, and most of us who play them are getting sick of this approach to this class. In finishing, one of these classes abilities either needs to be nerfed or buffed. I'd personally say nerf zerker taunts. They'll freak of their DPS gets taken away, and members of the Warrior tree need to sweat when it comes to tanking, they get it too easy(Yes, you do. You can complain all you want. You have it easy, tanking with my Zerker was a yawnfest because maintaining aggro was no challenge.) I would gladly, GLADLY sacrifice my pet, my harm touch, my evac and all that to be able to do the damage this clowns do. <p>Message Edited by Alevyan on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 PM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<P>I WILL say that you don't know how to play your class. I've had to reroll my SK once already due to dire circumstances, but I have been playing long before LU13 and I have seen all of the nerfs to all of the classes. Zerkers aren't as powerful as you might think. Please, answer a few questions, especially considering that this game is purly circumstantial, before you make such a bold statement:</P> <P>What mob were you fighting?</P> <P>How many mobs were you fighting?</P> <P>What type of mobs were you fighting?</P> <P>Who else was in the group when you were on your zerker? (remember that group buffs make a big difference)</P> <P>What con were the mobs?</P> <P>What is the spell quality and gear quality of both your zerker and your SK?</P> <P>What AA paths have you taken on both of the toons?</P> <P>What was the content of he mobs you were fighting? Herioc, solo or epic?</P> <P> </P> <P>A zerker has some absolutly AWSOME DPS vs. multiple mobs with Open Wounds and Rampage running. If they are in an offensive mood, they can use both of those with Juggarnaut and really pump out some DPS. BUT, and this is a big BUT, so can SK's. Give us a little time to blast off our AOE's and time our AOE's right with Pestilance, and we're just as high on the DPS scale if not higher than the zerker. We have a greater utility than the zerker by far IMO. Our group proc, ward, FD, Armorments (if you're not in the mood to tank), ect. ect. If you're having a problem with hate gain and you're group isn't listening to the fact that you have hate over time, seems to me like that person needs to not be in that group with you. (A saying I saw on the healer boards once fits well: If the tank dies, it's the healers fault. If the healer dies, its the tanks fault. If the DPS dies, it's the DPS's fault). Any DPS class can peel agro off of any tank if they so desire. You want more hate gain, go down the STR line and throw either a dirge or coercer in your group for the passive hate gain.</P> <P>You have made some really bold statements concerning this class. If you don't like it, either figure out how to play your class or reroll for a toon that you enjoy more. Yeah, a zerker can hold agro a bit easier, but isn't that the challenge of this class? Give us some time in a fight and we're nearly impossible to peel agro off of. I have zerker friends that TRY to pull agro from me and can barely do it, but if the shoe is on the other foot, it doesn't hold the same. Our DPS is fine, our tanking capability is fine (you have to build a raid around the MT anyways so it's not that big of a deal honestly) and our utility is fine. My beef right now is that our AA's aren't really geared around our class at this point, but that's something that will be fixed in November.</P> <P>Please, tell me I don't know how to play my class considering that I have made it to lvl 70, group every night with some of the best players on my server and I'm the MT of  my guild for our raids. Yeah, we can't tank, we can't DPS, and we have no utility. ALSO, Guardians can heal, templars can DPS and wizards can tank. -_- We're not that bad off, just need to adjust to a different playstyle than a warrior. If you don't like the class and have so much to complain about, reroll and leave those of us that enjoy our class alone. =D Have a nice day =D.</P>

[Alevyan]

<div></div>Ok, I really didn't fight any sort of different mobs with my zerker than my SK, solo content mostly, though I was doing standard runs through dungeons as I levelled. Ultimately, SKs can DPS effectively but seriously, if you have a high level SK and a high level Zerker it really feels like the Zerker is the one pumping out the damage. If you read my post, which obviously you didn't- You'd see that I stated that both my zerker and my SK are decked out in similar gear. The SK however has a set of Devout Vanguard as well as Xegonite Vanguard to increase DPS, whereas my Zerker just has Xegonite Vanguard, before hand he would use typical armor such as treasured or handcrafted, but even then I often out DPSed my co-pilot who was an SK who'd built it for DPS, just so we could compair damage. More often than not, the Zerker parsed higher than the SK, despite the SK using the debuffs and unloading as many DoTs as possible. I feel that I may have hyperextended the gap between ShadowKnights and Zerkers, though Zerkers DO have better DPS even if it is marginal, and they DO have better tanking skills. While it may seem like I've set this out as Zerkers being leaps and bounds ahead of SKs, I sort of didn't mean too. I'm more or less saying that overall, for the roles we're supposed to play? If you take two players of great and even skill and place them in the roles of the SK and the Zerker, both with gear designed for DPS at their teir: The Zerker will most likely come out as both the better tank and the better dps. While the players playstyle is an obvious factor, for this hypothetical situation we will assume it's not. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Alevyan on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 PM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>I disagree with you 100%. It's all circumstantial as I have stated many times on these boards. Show me parses with both the SK and the zerker. Show me the mob, show me the same group set up, the same circumstances with both toons and then come back to the boards. In my experience with this game thus far, the SK and zerker are comparitivatly equal in the DPS department. The biggest factor is going to be the player skill. If you feel that a zerker can tank better than a SK, then play your zerker. I have outtanked warriors many times due to skill alone. If you're tanking in defensive with a high DPS group in an easy instance, then you are by all means a fool. Our DPS is how we hold our agro. And besides, you still never answered my questions. What are the AA paths of both of the characters? I've parsed next to a zerker who was speced for DPS and I still out DPSed him with both of us going all out. For the record, I didn't use HT in our fights either <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. What AA paths are you using on your SK? Do you know what paths to use for DPS? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also for the record, I stopped reading your post about half way through when you stated that you had played your toon longer than anyone here thus implying that none of us here know what we're talking about. Herioc content, I honestly don't think there are many tanks that can hang with us. I've seen very few zerkers that can run through instances anywhere near the amount of time that I can. Raiding, once again, it's all about how you set up your groups. The most effective way for a tank to hold agro, and thyis includes zerkers, during a raid is to have some sort of hate transfer or passive hate gain on the MT and deagro's on the DPS classes in the raid. =D </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've played both classes as a friend of mine liked to swap toons during groups and raids at times. He would play my class, and I would play his. His reaction to playing a SK that was less geared than he was, we call it envy. He loved our DPS, he loved our tanking style and he loved our soloability. He's also probably the best [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] zerker that I have ever seen, even though he retired his zerker for an assassin. Please, come with REAL evidence that there is so much disparity between the classes as you say. We have a different style of hate management, not worse. We have a different approach to DPS, not worse. We do have better utility, but then again, that's our class. A jack of all trades. =D</DIV>

[Rylight]

<P>hmmm......you both make valid statements, Rylight lvl 60 sk AB server and Ryzik lvl 51 dreadnaught sk here. admittingly I have not gotten into teir 7 yet because when pvp servers came out I jumped on asap. anyways I hear what you are saying OP but im not sure what the point of the entire point was, I guess to buff up or debuff one of the classes?</P> <P>ok I do remember the devs stating that sk's are supposed to be like zerkers dps wise, and I must agree that that is most likely untrue. even with our spells im not sure an sk is really equal or near to a zerker. but honestly.....I really dont care. Do zerkers out dps sk's, YES...are they "better" tanks then sk's? well define "better". if by "better" you mean they can MT in raids, and when they MT they have a lesser chance of losing aggro, then sure they are better. but all in all how much better is $1000 then $1001?</P> <P>ok maybe those numbers arnt exactly comparable with this situation (this situation is probably $1000(zerker) compared to $850(sk) of course thats comparing tanking and dps only.</P> <P>THE QUESTION IS, WERE WE NOT SUPPOSED TO EXPECT ZERKERS  AND GUARDIANS TO TANK BETTER? now yes soe did say that every fighter can do his base job (tank) and that does seem to hold true, but if sk's could tank or dps as good as a zerker,,,then why would anybody pick a zerker? the whole point of the crusader class (to me) was that we were well rounded, good at everything but not the best at anything. I mean we are not the best dps, but we certianly are not the worst (guardians/pallies) and overall we can hold aggro, (except maybe in some raid situations) but once agian if we could raid just as well as a zerker why would anybody pick a zerker?</P> <P>now im not saying we are perfect, we could indeed use some slighty better aggro control, or simply higher numbers on our taunts. but isnt the whole point of the zerker to ....well go berserk? which is pretty much when they toss out the dps numbers. mind you I have not played a zerker personally but have been watching them since day one of EQ2 (yes I've been playing since day 1)</P> <P>but something you said really got to me. you said something alone the lines of "I would gladly give up my pet, my evac and my (something) to get the dps of a zerker" now what gets me with that statement is that you basically just gave up everything that makes an sk, which means you rather just be a zerker, which throws off the whole diversity of the game.</P> <P>anways, the point is they have there strong points and weak points, sure zerkers can raid, but thats were they shine, IN GROUPS, which is why they can raid so well, but let a zerker go out on his own solo, and he may have a problem getting by, where as an sk can solo the whole game no problem (now im not saying a zerker cant but sk's have more resources). point in case, the sk is more solo friendly so it gives up some of its group advantages (not much but some). now am I saying an sk shouldnt be able to MT in a raid? no im not saying that (heck many sk's do sometimes, I have once or twice) all I'm saying is that considering the zerkers main job is to be the head of the group, it shouldnt be a big surprised that they shine when it comes to raiding because they are simply built for mostly group play (much like a coercer) whereas an sk can group or solo quite efficeintly</P> <P>however considering your an sk and a zerker I'm sure I really dont need to tell you this. but you did seem to downplay alot of our strongpoints in the first post , for instance our heals, though small, are lifesaving in solo fights, and surprisably lifesaving in group fights also (cant begin to tell you how many times it saved my life when the healer was, forever whatever reason, unable to heal me the second I needed it)</P> <P>anyways it seems in your second post you begin to level things out. Overall I think most sk's dont expect to do the same amount of dps a zerker does, most of us are happy with the way our spells work, (and lets face it, in pvp sk's own zerkers) and as to aggro, well,,,,,,,,,I have all adept 3's and im doing quite well, but when I get my pvp sk toon in the the 60's I may have something different to say.</P>

[Kryptonix]

My main is an SK, the second toon I made was a Zerker. When I play the Zerker, the dps, the hate gain, and agro control is IMO better than an SKs. They have more taunts and high DPS. But like the OP said it was so high that it was REALLY boring. I can say that it takes so much more skill to play an SK well, than it takes to play a Zerker well. Playing a Zerker is really really really easy, coming from an SK to a Zerker, I thought would be a little difficult changing play styles. But it wasnt at all, the play style of a Zerker is pretty straight forward. I eventually deleted my Zerker, because well it wasnt that much fun to play. I replaced my Zerker with a PVP SK. Yes a Zerker can shell out DPS with minimal effort. With the right spells, CAs, creativity and elbow grease we can be on par with zerker DPS.Yes a Zerker can can lock down hate better and quicker than we can. But we can still lock down hate.But the class is boring to play. With an SK its exciting. We have so many more options available to us than Zerkers do. Our skill set is the best in the game. We can do things other tanks cannot. We can do things most DPS classes cannot. We are a tank class that can do everything REALLY well, not great, but good enough. Why do you think we have FD, evac, heals, and a nuke? We are the only class that has all of those things. The only thing we dont have that another class has is a mez/root (and I do think we should get one, since we are a jack of all trades). SKs shouldnt be like Zerkers when it comes to dps and agro. If they started gearing SKs the way Zerkers were, then I would stop playing SKs. I would stop playing tank classes all together, IMO the SK is the hardest tank class to play in the game, and the most fun. Brawlers and warriors, are boring, they offer no creativity or imagination what so ever. The only thing IMO that zerkers have that SKs should have, is the ability to do ranged attacks while on the move. When they nerfed our running cast, I was really [Removed for Content]. They should give us that root or mez we need to complete our jack of all trades title. I dont like Qs running away from me.<div></div>

[Beldin_]

<DIV>Hm.. to be true .. in normal group play i never saw a zerker does that much damge .. the last parse i found when i was with a 70 zerker as MT in Scaleborn the zerker did 212 dps .. when i tanked with my 65 SK in Sanct yesterday i did 320 dps .. our pally normally does around 150-180 dps. I also never lost aggro to the scoutpet of a 70 Necro .. and since i'm really a tank noob who normally always played damage dealers .. i was really happy with that. However .. i'm no raider but only group / solo player <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Beldin_ on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:26 AM</span>

[Shadowwhip]

<DIV> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alevyan wrote:<BR> <BR>I would gladly, GLADLY sacrifice my pet, my harm touch, my evac and all that to be able to do the damage this clowns do.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Alevyan on <SPAN class=date_text>06-08-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:46 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I won't make those sacrifices because I'm not broken. If that makes me a fanboy - so be it.</P> <P>If you don't like your SK, do us all a favor and stick to your zerker. </P> <P>One last thing, pick one forum or the other to post your so-called comparison. Cross posting isn't necessary.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Shadowwhip on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beldin_ wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hm.. to be true .. in normal group play i never saw a zerker does that much damge .. the last parse i found when i was with a 70 zerker as MT in Scaleborn the zerker did 212 dps .. when i tanked with my 65 SK in Sanct yesterday i did 320 dps .. our pally normally does around 150-180 dps. I also never lost aggro to the scoutpet of a 70 Necro .. and since i'm really a tank noob who normally always played damage dealers .. i was really happy with that. However .. i'm no raider but only group / solo player <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Beldin_ on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:26 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If a Zerker did only 212 dps then he wasn't playing very well, our Zerker when MT in raids has numerous times hit 2k on grouped teir 7 epic mobs, when I MT my dps goes down the tubes due to losing a large portion of my intelligence.</P> <P>I think the issue is that guardians are the best at taking hits, beserkers (Strongest tank class IMO) are only a little behind guardians and own every other class on dps in defensive (where it really matters) and aggro.  Paladins are also a head of us in taking hits and in the right MT group set up are great in aggro, plus to be honest they have the "utility" edge on us also (and no I don't want the silly rez LOL) but do poor dps unless against undead.  I personally would have prefered something a bit more end gamed orianted versus the evac we recieved.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong I find the Shadow Knight a fun class and like some aspect of it, but in our main function tanking we are not up to the level that the other three classes are at end game.  </P> <P>As a raider I wish an area that all six tank classes can shine, vs all MT duties being either guardians or beserkers,  Yes we can tank, but we are going to be the last choice all things being equal (gear/skill etc.) in every situation in game now.  </P> <P>Some of our community think we are great and need no changes, some think we are totally broken.  Me I fall in the middle ground, I want raiding guilds to go dang wish we had a SK for this mob once in while versus what we have now were if a guild has a good Guardian or Beserker there really isn't a reaon to have a Shadow knight.   </P> <P>You all are welcome to disagree with me and I keep plugging on, but I still think we need a place we shine versus being middle of the road in every aspect of tanking.</P>

[Beldin_]

<P>I spoke about normal groups .. not raids .. what most people often don't see is wherr the damage comes from ..  today for example my damage was much higher then yesterday .. but around 35% came from the ice-shield from a wizzy in the group .. and there is the problem that parsers add this damge to the MT and not to the wizzy. In normal Groups .. and even in the few raids i was i nearly never saw any character hit 1000 dps .. and when were it on short AoE fights with maybe Rain of Arrows from my Ranger ready .. so from my experience i give nothing about any parses where i dom't know the group setup and where in the end the damage really comes from. All i can say is that for group play i'm really satisfied with my SK <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Giral]

<DIV> <DIV>Just like to add to the Sk's Dp's statement , am also a lvl 70 Sk Mostly M or Adpt3 and Parce after parce the only time i Top the chart over other Tank's is on Hugemongous group's .  and as i never see anybody else pasting parses or group set ups : ) dont ask  : P </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> And the only way to do that in a Group set up is to Vs Mob's lower then you normally would so you can Pull 3 or 4 Group's at a time to Max  Dp's ,  Tanking in S. O. S. at level 70 i can pull  3,4,5 group's of mob's at a time and hold agro on Par with any other Tank  , go to Hof and single target Pulling 1 target or 1 Group at a time ? Nope i will lose agro alot  and  Yeah it's up to the Group to control Agro and i Agree with that , if i held agro ALL the time it would be very boring Gameplay IMO , but when the same Group can go thru the Same Zone and have to Control thier agro alot Less with another MT why use an SK? when is the Last time you saw  " Group looking for SK to Tank Hof " i have seen Group Seeking Guard or Zerker to tank Hof" they probably have tried befor with a Pally/Sk/Monk etc.... and failed maybe they weren't high enough LvL/gear/master/adpt3 Maybe they just sucky tank's, or sucky group's . who know's but what is known is Guard's / Zerker's are easily the Best all around Tank's in the game . i'd say Zerker is better on group mobs Vs Guard , but Guard is  better at Single target Vs Zerker ,Yes i have tanked Hof without any death's just making a point . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    i believe they Re-vamped Sk's Skill's based on Combat Befor the Re-vamp , with Taunt over Time , all  of our Dot's , Our Skill's all have decent recast timer's on them , you can go down the line using our skill's and then sit in auto attack waiting for them to one by one come back up ,  Our Ae Dp's Increasing Skill can only be used 1 time every 3 to 4 Fight's = Death march and then it only last's for 1 minute and only proc's of a death of a mob for 15 Second's , add pestilence Very similar recast to Death march, and also similar way it proc's off the death of a Mob, etc......... all of our skill's are Set up for LONG encounter's = Befor Re-vamp when fight's took 3 to 4 minute's Each <---- in this set up We Dp's with Deathmarch, Pestilance on almost everyfight and that would make our Dp's closer with a Berserker's In-game , i don't know the Re-cast's for Berserk or Open Wound's Etc.. on zerker's but if they are usable on everyfight Or everyother fight this would explain the Large differance in DP's and Agro control over an SK ,     (also i would think Berserker's would all be dead by level 40 of heart problem's, going berserk every 5 minute's must be insane amount of stress on your heart , i find going berserk to be something that would be Rare and happen in certain situation's Similar to HT ,   after the first 800 times he went berserk when does berserk no longer = berserk but just his normal mode of fighting so his name should be changed to Angry Guy : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        I  belive this is true Becuase Sk's have been Gimped since release and in Doing the Re-vamp i would think they had started on it a Long time befor they decided to Re-vamp the MOB"S , and i also believe they would start working on the Most broken classes first OR that they tried to come up with fixes and in doing these fixes they decided they would need to Re-vamp ALL tank's, then same with Mage's , Scout's ,etc...... and hence we wound up with a Total combat re-vamp  and a Further example of How this is True  = When POF was released Fight's took a Very Very long TIME and Guess what ? SK's when KOS released Could hold AGRO not all the time BUT we could hold it Very well = to a Guard or a Zerker and IN some cases Better , and then they fiddled with Mob's , and game play was Suddenly in Fast Forward , Want More proof , ? POF is Still screwed up and it is a Place where Most Sk's have the Biggest problem with agro IN-game,   look at the SK's who say Agro isn't a Problem normally = Level 26 thru  56 , then 58 to 68 say they have a Realy Rough time holding agro , and then level 69 and 70 SK's that say agro is a Pain in the Asterick's BUt can be done .        ( i don't think that has to do with Learning your class But more with Mob's die to fast and dp's(Dot's) + taunt's for Sk's Work Over time to me that alone Spells T R O U B L E : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if they reduced DeathMarch's Recast and Pestilance Re-cast to be used in Every Fight or Every other fight i personally think this would bring us closer in Dp's to Zerker's still wouldn't be Equal as i have Used Death march and pestilence in group's Dp'sing with a Zerker Dp's ( Guard Mt : )  and only time i Out dp's Zerker is on Multi Pull Mob's With death march and Pestilence and all debuff's on Etc....... Normal Group's with Death march and pestilence Zerker Out Dp's me 10/10 times ..  this or reduce or power consumption/make mob's Last Longer = More Hate over Time so we have the Most agro of all tank's at the 1/2 to 3/4 way of fight's since all other tank's have Up front hate and equal Hate to Us , why shouldn't we have Backend Hate meaning we have the Most hate at 1/2 to 3/4 of the fight = Balance,  or another Idea = Tweak our Normal Ae Dp's to be Just under Zerker's Dp's  we tank the same way as a Zerker, but we Are Very far behind Zerker's Dp's , if zerker's Tuant's are Better then our's(don't know) then we should atleast have equal dp's to make up for the less Agro of tuant's+the tuant over time issue ,     i don't play a zerker so i don't know all thier skill's and tuant #'s, but if they OUT Dp's Us,Out Tuant Us, have Upfront Hate, and can negate the negative effect's of Stances with an AA : ( < , ,     i Personally don't care what Zerker's have BUT Imo Zerker's and Sk's are very alike in how they Tank = Ae dp's + tuant's  and if Zerker's hold Great agro then It's very obvious that SK's need A) more Ae Dp's Or More Hate ,  or drop off a couple Dot's Raise thier Dmge and make them Instant damage </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyway Please take the time to look over and around all my Bad grammer,spelling and especially my Capitilization that doesn't make sense : ) i =sucky typer but this is Just a foruM and the Capital's are to emphisize certain parts i was stressing when writing the post   </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div>Zerkers have more taunts is more or less a misconception. The only extra taunt that Zerkers get over the SK is one of their Ancient spells.  This spell is a PBAE which needs care to use.  And if you look at the 3 Ancient spells for each class, you will see they are fairly balanced in nature and likely in total hate generation as well: Zerkers: - limited time proc buff that turns all attacks into AE attack - PBAE taunt - anti-death proc chance buff SKs: - AE life tap - AE power tap - temp group proc buff boosting a variety of stats and grants immunities In my experience, my guild's SKs and Zerkers achieve the same level of DPS and tank equally well. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 PM</span>

[Margen]

<P>Beserkers do have better taunts then we do, my guild beserker and me compared AOE taunts one night while getting ready for a raid, his was over 400 more hate then mine (both M2).  We get the debuff which is nice, but it doesn't help on the hate production that much.   Personnaly I wish they would replace mana sieve with a straight diesease debuff (plus it would be less dangerous to use it vs the debuff being tied to a taunt).</P> <P>As for the difference between beserker and Sk dps, I think the problem is that in defensive both classes lose weapons skill, but the beserkers damage is primarly str based and with their group buff (something like 100ish str) they don't lose their primary damage stat.  While we also lose the skill and our Intelligence buff so our dps goes way down due to how our skills are built.  So comparing the difference in dps and taunts beserkers have decided edge vs Shadow Knights in aggro generation.</P> <P>I rember the devs at one time when LU13 was coming up said that the amount of damage a tank did was in portion to the raw tanking ability the class had for taking damage.  But the way the game developed can anyone really argu that a Shadow Knight can take the hits that a beserker does with the AA set they get and their temprory MIt buffs.  Plus when tanking they own us on dps due to how the characters are built and in offensive mode they will in most fights still beat us.</P>

[Zoradan]

<P>LOL one guy claiming every thing is wrong, another claiming every thing is right.</P> <P>I have played an SK from day one, I have played a raiding SK in T5, T6. and T7. I have tanked, I have beaten every thing in the game, in every aspect (ok ok not MO, sue me).</P> <P>While I agree, if you think SK's suck so much, quit /shrug.</P> <P>On the other hand if you think for one second SK's arn't the 4th in line so far as plate tanks, your a fool.</P> <P>We are not the tanks Guards are, Zerks are better rounded, Pallies have better utility. All we do is look cool and half our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] looks pink.</P> <P>Want to be valuable? Work hard, pay atention, be set with you emergancy taunts, time your aoe's for dps, play back up fiddle, but play it well.</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW: asking for another class to be nerfed is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing childish, work for getting our class boosted, not some one elsce [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed.</P> <P> </P>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>I think you are a fool for saying that we're the last on the plate tank line. We have a better versitility than the rest of the tanks, and we can tank equaly well. Like I said before, in herioc content we lack the snap agro that warriors do. Give us a few seconds and we agro locked just as well as they do. Raid content, I honestly can't think of one tank that I have ever raided with that didn't want a dirge/coercer so that the DPS could unload seconds after the fight started. Literally, my DPS can start button mashing to their little hearts desire 4 seconds after I pull an epic mob, whiich is just enough time for me to get the mob in place,  when I have a dirge in my group. If I don't have that, they just have to wait an extra 6 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To say that this class is broken or useless would be foolish. I've have made ppl believers of this class, including myself honestly, and now have ppl that perfer SK's over any other tanking class. I don't know of any other class that can walk into a room and pull the whole room, heal themselves, hold agro and do it with almost no power. This class is fun, exciting, challenging and probably the best [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tanking class in the game imo. If you like your zerker, as the rest of the ppl said, play the zerker. After all, this game is all about having fun, correct?</DIV>

[Margen]

<P>I never said the SK sucked, or called for any other class to be nerfed, but we are 4th in line of plate tanks at this time.  Where do we shine, Mitigation ... Nope, Hp's ..... Nope, Aggro ... Nope, Avoidance .... Nope, Utility ..... Nope (when our besereker is not tanking he is placed in the scout group for their huge strength buff), and paladins are great.</P> <P>Does that mean SK's are completly broken, of course not.  But to say we are the best tank or most prefered tank is incorrect.  If our lifetaps had a factor in the amount of damage we took then we could say were competive, but when mobs are hitting you in the thousands and lifetaps heal maybe 400ish at best then it doesn't equal out.  Mitigation effectiveness ups with the amount of damage you take, lifetaps don't.</P> <P>Our lifetaps were suppose to make up the difference between us and warriors in HP's which it could be argued they do.  But they do not make up the difference in mitigation.  </P> <P>While I am a raider I don't claim to have beaten every mob in the game yet and I don't claim do know every class in an out, but I can compare the differences in the tank classes and we do need some tweaking,   I've tanked epics and I am fabled out (except for some jewlery items ... bad luck on drops) and I have every skill at adept III or master, and my guildies at least tell me I know my job (all four of our plate tanks are very good IMO).  But compared to our other tanks (all pretty much equally equiped), I am last or second to last in mitigation, hps and we all know the aggro issues.</P> <P>No we don't suck, but we aren't were we should be either.</P><p>Message Edited by Margen on <span class=date_text>06-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 PM</span>

[Kelkirra]

Then I would say that you aren't playing your class correctly and your guild is not puting togather the groups properly either. In a raid set up a warrior can buff their personal MIT to ~ 1K higher for 30 seconds. If you have the right set up and even a warrior that doesn't have the best gear in he game you can still have their MIT up to about 5200+ easiliy. This will mean an inrease to 6200 ish for 30 seconds for the hard hitting mobs so that your raid can drop debuffs and you can withstand the first wave of attacks comming at you in the most crucial part of these fights. We can obtain these same results with a bit different set up. Just add a fury to the group for urchin. This will increase our MIT by over 2400 for 36 seconds while the rest of the raid dumbs down the mob for you.Best MIT buffs, no, but these are problems that can be overcome. Best HP, we're not supposed to have it with our powerpool being higher than the rest of the tanks. Best Hate generation, man, in a raid enviroment there isn't a tank that can hold agro without some sort of agro buffer, so we're not alone here. If there is a problem with agro, then its game wide and not class specific. As far as our lifetaps, dude, I've kept myself up on certian mobs that we would split while the healers would focus on a different tank. Herioc content, I've tanked without healers and healer buffs and still didn't lost agro and didn't have a hate buffer in my group. We can't heal others like pallies, but hell, we don't need to. Our lifetaps are truly powerful if you time them right. We don't heal enough with them? O.o I've healed myself for over 10K in a single encounter that lasted about 2 or 3 min. How is this not powerful enough for you? What other class do you know, fighter wise, that can accomplish this outside of our couterparts? O.oYou dont seem to understand your class nor do you seem to honestly enjoy it. Play a different toon and see how quickly you come back to your SK. Or hell, maybe you don't and were all the better for it as we don't have to hear you complain on several different boards that we're not up to par with the other tanks. We have our differences as it should be. We shouldn't be able to tank all epic content, nor should any tank. To be honest, there isn't a tank out there that is going to be as proficient at every mob as they are with particular mobs, this is how the raiding system is set up. But, hey, what do I know? At least I can come here from experience with tanking epics on a regular basis and not just whinning because I'm not good enough because my guild told me I'm not. <div></div>

[Margen]

<P>I understand my class fine thank you and I know how to play it.  I get sick and tired of that BS statement when I didn't attack you at all.  You don't gain converts by insulting people that disagree with you.  </P>

[Diern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR><B>ShadowKnights can Heal.<BR></B> Our ward used to be decent, then it got rewired and is easily the most goofy excuse for a 'Damage ward' ...... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I couldnt read any further than that,and take it seriously enjoy your Zerker.

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> <P>I understand my class fine thank you and I know how to play it.  I get sick and tired of that BS statement when I didn't attack you at all.  You don't gain converts by insulting people that disagree with you.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I haven't attacked you personally quite yet, <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. The fact is remaining that you either don't know your class or you haven't played your class to its fullest potential. You're comming here spewing BS with no viable evidence to your claim that we're broken. We are not a broken class. If we were, they why would I be TANKING epics? Why would I be DPSing groups and taking agro from every tank that comes my way? Why would I understand how my UTILITY effects the group that I'm in and watch them enjoy it? O.o

[Giral]

<P>:smileyvery-happy:    learn how to play your Class you lvl 70 Nub's   :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P>O sorry that wasn't my line    :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P>was going to write a Long post and then i just Had to Laugh as i knew i would get called a NUb' and get told how to play my class:smileyvery-happy: so instead i decided i would just tell myself </P> <P> </P> <P>Giralus Go learn to Play your Class or Re-roll :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>there glad that's all over with , now i can get some sleep :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P> <P>o Hey Just wanted to give you ALL a head's up Resistance is Futile you might as well Just go right now and Re-learn your Toon or Re-roll ,   Sk's are the TEH UBer RAID MT/Group MT/Solo artist's/Docor's/Lawyer's and Hotdog contest eating winner's Didnt you know ? you didnt ? DAng bro You better GO relearn your class : ( you should be Out PArcing Scout's and MT'in with 1 Eye and Self healin your self for 50 BZilion and Shiztz ,    dont know if i said it man BUT Dude Go releaern your class Bro , or just reroll if you hate it sa so much * i know you didnt say you hated it or its broken But sounds Great ) So Yeah go re roll instead maybe or if not then releaern or Man just go </P> <P> </P> <P>:smileyhappy:</P> <P>:robothappy:</P> <P>:manhappy:</P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>06-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

What the heck was that?<div></div>

[Giral]

<DIV>     lol its called Sleep depravation OR sarcasm : )  read the rest of the thread and similar thread's count the number of times you see "Learn how to play your toon or Re-roll " even tho people make valid point's and never say thay Hate the class or that it's totaly broken . there is a common theme to everyone of these post's and i can Practicly see one person Foaming at the mouth about SK's are Teh Uber elite Roxxer class and if you disagree then GO relearn or reroll your class , even when people are agreeing with him : ) Rofl :smileyvery-happy:   to f'ckin funny </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have a couple people Claiming Sk's do 1200+ dp's constantly and keep even dp's with scout's and most saying we do OK dp's</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have most saying we can go full bore on dp's and almost never  pull agro off MT and 1 saying they  pull agro of any MT everysingle time and it's totally impossible for them to Dp's in a group and that was with with adpt 1's  ; )  and now they even More Teh Uber so fo-get-about-it .        just a Fyi  Agro is a Group function     guess who's fualt it would be if you can't control your agro? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have a couple saying agro isn't a real Huge problem it's still a little lax for us , and other's saying we can't hold agro for Jack </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we all Agree Sk's have some Minor issue's ,   a couple of tweak's and we golden </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <DIV>     lol its called Sleep depravation OR sarcasm : )  read the rest of the thread and similar thread's count the number of times you see "Learn how to play your toon or Re-roll " even tho people make valid point's and never say thay Hate the class or that it's totaly broken . there is a common theme to everyone of these post's and i can Practicly see one person Foaming at the mouth about SK's are Teh Uber elite Roxxer class and if you disagree then GO relearn or reroll your class , even when people are agreeing with him : ) Rofl :smileyvery-happy:   to f'ckin funny </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have a couple people Claiming Sk's do 1200+ dp's constantly and keep even dp's with scout's and most saying we do OK dp's</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have most saying we can go full bore on dp's and almost never  pull agro off MT and 1 saying they  pull agro of any MT everysingle time and it's totally impossible for them to Dp's in a group and that was with with adpt 1's  ; )  and now they even More Teh Uber so fo-get-about-it .        just a Fyi  Agro is a Group function     guess who's fualt it would be if you can't control your agro? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have a couple saying agro isn't a real Huge problem it's still a little lax for us , and other's saying we can't hold agro for Jack </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we all Agree Sk's have some Minor issue's ,   a couple of tweak's and we golden </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Almost amused. The fact remains that this class is awsome. We're not the best at everything which makes it all the better. I know there will be mobs that I won't be able to tank due to particular game mechanics. I know there are a few problems, but if you go back and reread the history of these boards, you will see that it's the same argument brought up evertime. We can't tank, we can't DPS, can can't do this when in fact this class  CAN. Truth, I pull agro when I am functioning as a DPS part of the party, more-so now than before thanks to spell upgrades and certian combo's I use. Truth, we CAN tank even in epic content. Now how well the class tanks is strictly up to the player behind the keyboard. There are so many ppl on these boards that state that we can't tank and we're not a viable raid tank ect. ect. ect. and they never honestly try. Truth, we DO have good utility and even more-so if you're wanting to take the utility AA's built for crusaders. I personally am nobodies buff bot so I went DPS and hate gain with my AA's and it fits my playstyle.</P> <P>I state that these ppl can't play their class because they are honestly not making any true valid points. Sure, it might be easier to keep a guardian up, for the 30 seconds that he throws up his temp MIT buffs, something that we can replicate with a single class in our group. These ppl state that they can't produce DPS enough to pull agro. Come on, I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's [Removed for Content] when I say that I can usually pull agro with 3 spells. With a 68% spell crit chance and all adept 3's/masters it's actually pretty easy. Should I be pulling off of the MT in a group? Not really, but it amuses me when another tanking class decides to get in the group and play hot [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because they don't see us as tanks thinking that we're just a filler in the group/raid.</P> <P>If I were to honestly see a valid point made without the running theme that runs through all SK hating threads, then I wouldn't even bother. I would simply do what I usually do, give a few pieces of advice and have you test them out. But it doesn't work this way as it seems that most ppl that decide to say that this class sucks and can't do this that and the other haven't even TRIED half of what they complain about. -_- "I can't tank raids", "Have you tried?" "No, but I still can't tank raids because my guild only uses guardians and tells me that I"m there for buffs and DPS". Can you understand now? I've tanked through all teirs of this game. </P> <P>I will admit, right after LU13 and even into t6 we had some SERIOUS issues with our class. Most of which have been altered either by game mechanics, adjusting to the nerfs or SoE actually doing their job and fixing what is actually broken. Still ppl are here today, as they have been since after LU13 in game and out, stating that our class still has MAJOR issues and that everyone else can outperform us in every function that we have. If you gear your toon towards DPS, don't expect to tank as well. If you gear your toon towards tanking, don't expect to push out uber DPS. If you gear your toon towards utility, then don't expect to be picked for the MT position at every opprotunity.</P> <P>There is one factor that everyone here is missing that plays a major part in this game: PLAYSTYLE. If you can't tank a raid, then it's not the class, it's the ppl behind the keyboard. If you can't DPS, then it's the ppl behind the keyboard, not the game mechanics. Do you see a pattern?</P>

[Grudge1]

<DIV>Wait If a zerker can tank better then a sk, and a zerker can dps better than a sk, wouldn't that make the zerker the more well rounded class not the sk.  What makes an SK well rounded? We can't outdamage a plate tank class and yesterday for the first time I had to let the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] monk tank in the new instance cause i was dieing way to fast for the healer to heal me( I'm in T7 fabled and legendary).  I'm not switching over to pally (a crusader class that can actually tank well) however, I'm hoping one day the devs will get off their butts and fix me, so I'm not the last one invited into raids <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Grudge145 wrote:<div>Wait If a zerker can tank better then a sk, and a zerker can dps better than a sk...</div><hr></blockquote>Um... if you are going to take one side's argument and try to use it as the evidence for the other side, obviously you won't get anything that makes sense. In case you missed it... the contention is that Zerkers and SKs are more or less balanced in terms of overall tanking ability and DPS ability.</div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 AM</span>

[Grudge1]

<DIV>It's true we can't hold agro.  All you people who say you can are obviously not playing with all mastered decked out dps.  The reason we can't hold agro is because our damage is intelligence based, now this would be fine if they made some good tank gear with intelligence on it, but most tank gear has str(helping out our friend the zerker) sta, agi or wis.  Yesterday in the new instance I got new plate gaunts with around 450mit, 20int some other stats and FT4 on it, so lets hope there is more of that laying around.  Maybe the devs do care about us, a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>70SK</DIV>

[Grudge1]

<DIV>LOL, an SK cannot tank nearly as well as Zerker, I can't believe people are trying to argue differently.  Zerkers have more HP more Mit, same avoidence for the most part and better taunts.  What do SKs have that could possibly balance this?  I mean we even have diseased based resists along with diseased based damage, what were they thinking?  Hell a bruiser can tank better than me in most cases.</DIV>

[Kaedi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> Zerkers have more taunts is more or less a misconception.<BR><BR>The only extra taunt that Zerkers get over the SK is one of their Ancient spells.  This spell is a PBAE which needs care to use.  And if you look at the 3 Ancient spells for each class, you will see they are fairly balanced in nature and likely in total hate generation as well:<BR><BR>Zerkers:<BR>- limited time proc buff that turns all attacks into AE attack<BR>- PBAE taunt<BR>- anti-death proc chance buff<BR><BR>SKs:<BR>- AE life tap<BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff9900>- AE power tap<BR></FONT></STRONG>- temp group proc buff boosting a variety of stats and grants immunities<BR><BR>In my experience, my guild's SKs and Zerkers achieve the same level of DPS and tank equally well. <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>FYI - it's not ae, it's power over time,  and it doesn't scale at all ... ie it soon becomes near worthless.

[Kryptonix]

I'm gonna say SKs can tank, better than most other tanks. We can tank just as well if not better than a zerker. The problem is, SKs take a little more work. The only classes that can trump us in tanking are gaurds and zerkers. Zerkers like I said, we can tank just as good as they can. Yea they have more mit and HP, we got better utility, life taps, and more options available to us when things go bad. Earlier today was grouped with a zerker, and I kept stealing agro from him. Maybe it was just me or maybe the zerker wasnt working as hard as he should. I just remember getting yelled at for stealing agro to much. I ended up being the MT and kept agro the whole time, except when my idiot friend assassin would use his assassinate too soon (he would call it though). Pallies IMO are the worst tanks in the game. I know I have stated we should have an ammends equivalent, but now I dont really want one. In every group I have been in with a pally MT it has gone to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. This doesnt include raids just groups. <div></div>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grudge145 wrote:<BR> <DIV>It's true we can't hold agro.  All you people who say you can are obviously not playing with all mastered decked out dps.  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A full mastered DPS can take aggro from every tank .. its also his job to look how much damage he can do .. our swashie who as a lot masters more often takes aggro from our pala then from my sk even with amends. On the other hand my Ranger can easier pull aggro from a berseker then from a Pala if i have amends.Or take a monk / Bruiser .. they can hold aggro on a single mob .. but not on a multi encounter if all people throw out their AoEs like mad. It really depends on the encounters and the group has also to know a little bit how the tank works.

[Giral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <DIV>     lol its called Sleep depravation OR sarcasm : )  read the rest of the thread and similar thread's count the number of times you see "Learn how to play your toon or Re-roll " even tho people make valid point's and never say thay Hate the class or that it's totaly broken . there is a common theme to everyone of these post's and i can Practicly see one person Foaming at the mouth about SK's are Teh Uber elite Roxxer class and if you disagree then GO relearn or reroll your class , even when people are agreeing with him : ) Rofl :smileyvery-happy:   to f'ckin funny </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have a couple people Claiming Sk's do 1200+ dp's constantly and keep even dp's with scout's and most saying we do OK dp's</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have most saying we can go full bore on dp's and almost never  pull agro off MT and 1 saying they  pull agro of any MT everysingle time and it's totally impossible for them to Dp's in a group and that was with with adpt 1's  ; )  and now they even More Teh Uber so fo-get-about-it .        just a Fyi  Agro is a Group function     guess who's fualt it would be if you can't control your agro? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have a couple saying agro isn't a real Huge problem it's still a little lax for us , and other's saying we can't hold agro for Jack </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we all Agree Sk's have some Minor issue's ,   a couple of tweak's and we golden </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Almost amused. The fact remains that this class is awsome. We're not the best at everything which makes it all the better. I know there will be mobs that I won't be able to tank due to particular game mechanics. I know there are a few problems, but if you go back and reread the history of these boards, you will see that it's the same argument brought up evertime. We can't tank, we can't DPS, can can't do this when in fact this class  CAN. Truth, I pull agro when I am functioning as a DPS part of the party, more-so now than before thanks to spell upgrades and certian combo's I use. Truth, we CAN tank even in epic content. Now how well the class tanks is strictly up to the player behind the keyboard. There are so many ppl on these boards that state that we can't tank and we're not a viable raid tank ect. ect. ect. and they never honestly try. Truth, we DO have good utility and even more-so if you're wanting to take the utility AA's built for crusaders. I personally am nobodies buff bot so I went DPS and hate gain with my AA's and it fits my playstyle.</P> <P>I state that these ppl can't play their class because they are honestly not making any true valid points. Sure, it might be easier to keep a guardian up, for the 30 seconds that he throws up his temp MIT buffs, something that we can replicate with a single class in our group. These ppl state that they can't produce DPS enough to pull agro. Come on, I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's [Removed for Content] when I say that I can usually pull agro with 3 spells. With a 68% spell crit chance and all adept 3's/masters it's actually pretty easy. Should I be pulling off of the MT in a group? Not really, but it amuses me when another tanking class decides to get in the group and play hot [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because they don't see us as tanks thinking that we're just a filler in the group/raid.</P> <P>If I were to honestly see a valid point made without the running theme that runs through all SK hating threads, then I wouldn't even bother. I would simply do what I usually do, give a few pieces of advice and have you test them out. But it doesn't work this way as it seems that most ppl that decide to say that this class sucks and can't do this that and the other haven't even TRIED half of what they complain about. -_- "I can't tank raids", "Have you tried?" "No, but I still can't tank raids because my guild only uses guardians and tells me that I"m there for buffs and DPS". Can you understand now? I've tanked through all teirs of this game. </P> <P>I will admit, right after LU13 and even into t6 we had some SERIOUS issues with our class. Most of which have been altered either by game mechanics, adjusting to the nerfs or SoE actually doing their job and fixing what is actually broken. Still ppl are here today, as they have been since after LU13 in game and out, stating that our class still has MAJOR issues and that everyone else can outperform us in every function that we have. If you gear your toon towards DPS, don't expect to tank as well. If you gear your toon towards tanking, don't expect to push out uber DPS. If you gear your toon towards utility, then don't expect to be picked for the MT position at every opprotunity.</P> <P>There is one factor that everyone here is missing that plays a major part in this game: PLAYSTYLE. If you can't tank a raid, then it's not the class, it's the ppl behind the keyboard. If you can't DPS, then it's the ppl behind the keyboard, not the game mechanics. Do you see a pattern?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>    I agree whole heartedly with everything you say in this post Sar , and playing since release when we had totally broken skill's,and  way underpowered skill's , and even back then i was a great MT and working with 1/2 of what we have now , even back then SK's had tanked Everything IN-game "Everything" , so now we are Light year's ahead of how we were at release and Guess what Sk's Have once again Tanked everything,"Everything"  IN-game any other Tank has. so that to me Say's we are NOT broken, Margen did make some valid point's , and no we all don't think SK's are totally broken, but we agree that we need a few minor thing's as all classes DO, and some classes need alot of fixing,  i never tried to play a Zerker, Paly,Guardian, and so i could care less if they tank easier , i like thing's Challenging, and if Sk's stop being a challenging Tank class to play , i will stop playing Eq2, i have had 1 1/2 years to switch to a diffrent Tank class and i have NO need , i love my SK </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S.  </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grudge145 wrote:<BR> <DIV>It's true we can't hold agro.  All you people who say you can are obviously not playing with all mastered decked out dps.  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Beldin_ Wrote :    A full mastered DPS can take aggro from every tank .. its also his job to look how much damage he can do .. our swashie who as a lot masters more often takes aggro from our pala then from my sk even with amends. On the other hand my Ranger can easier pull aggro from a berseker then from a Pala if i have amends.Or take a monk / Bruiser .. they can hold aggro on a single mob .. but not on a multi encounter if all people throw out their AoEs like mad. It really depends on the encounters and the group has also to know a little bit how the tank works.       </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>exaclty Beldin_ , Agro is a group function , if a Wizard is Full Mastered he know's He's a Dp's Machine so has to control HIS agro , you can't Play his toon for him, and if he constantly pull's agro in everygroup he's in he will eventually stop getting grouped :  *  ) < and then he can go SOLO for all anybody care's , Group means more then a Bunch of Soloer's that decided to band together for a minute' , a Group is a Team, that agree's to work Together to achieve a common goal, </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:47 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<blockquote><hr>Kaedian wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote: <div></div> <div></div>Zerkers have more taunts is more or less a misconception.The only extra taunt that Zerkers get over the SK is one of their Ancient spells.  This spell is a PBAE which needs care to use.  And if you look at the 3 Ancient spells for each class, you will see they are fairly balanced in nature and likely in total hate generation as well:Zerkers:- limited time proc buff that turns all attacks into AE attack- PBAE taunt- anti-death proc chance buffSKs:- AE life tap<strong><font color="#ff9900">- AE power tap</font></strong>- temp group proc buff boosting a variety of stats and grants immunitiesIn my experience, my guild's SKs and Zerkers achieve the same level of DPS and tank equally well. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">06-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:01 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>FYI - it's not ae, it's power over time,  and it doesn't scale at all ... ie it soon becomes near worthless.<hr></blockquote>Thanks for the clarification.  It's actually nearly exactly the same as the Defiler cannibalize, which is one of the most awesome spells in my arsenal and it doesn't scale either.  The extra taunt zerkers get also doesn't scale.. so you know.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaedian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> Zerkers have more taunts is more or less a misconception.<BR><BR>The only extra taunt that Zerkers get over the SK is one of their Ancient spells.  This spell is a PBAE which needs care to use.  And if you look at the 3 Ancient spells for each class, you will see they are fairly balanced in nature and likely in total hate generation as well:<BR><BR>Zerkers:<BR>- limited time proc buff that turns all attacks into AE attack<BR>- PBAE taunt<BR>- anti-death proc chance buff<BR><BR>SKs:<BR>- AE life tap<BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff9900>- AE power tap<BR></FONT></STRONG>- temp group proc buff boosting a variety of stats and grants immunities<BR><BR>In my experience, my guild's SKs and Zerkers achieve the same level of DPS and tank equally well. <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:01 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>FYI - it's not ae, it's power over time,  and it doesn't scale at all ... ie it soon becomes near worthless.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the clarification.  It's actually nearly exactly the same as the Defiler cannibalize, which is one of the most awesome spells in my arsenal and it doesn't scale either.  The extra taunt zerkers get also doesn't scale.. so you know.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Blame this on me as he was asking during a group and I might have stated that it was an AE tap. Might have been during the communication with my group. I do understand that we have some problems. I have not denied that. My biggest issue is someone here stating that we can not do something that they are not attempting. We CAN tank, we CAN DPS and we DO have utility. We could use some upgrades as all classes could. =D I appreciate anyone's argument, as long as it remains valid. If you haven't attempted to tank a raid mob,  how can you come here and state that we can't just because your guild stated you can't. Try it, if it doesn't work, come back. It might just take a different strat than you have used thus far <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.