Compare & Contrast: Bruiser VS SK in MT Raid Group.....

[Notorious_G]

<DIV>LOL, I thought it was kind of funny that someone had made a new post about SK vs Bruiser when I came here for same reason except to get opinons of them in MT raid group.  Thx in advance to that poster saving me the time to come up w/ a title.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, my raid leader prefers to have a bruiser in the MT group over an SK.  I just burnt a pearl on upgrading Pledge of Armament becuase I ended up in MT grp ONCE & was asked for the buff.  It was only Adept I at the time & I was kind of embarrased, think it might have even been for the previous tier too.  There is now a master available on broker but I figure it is a waste of plat if I never make it in MT grp.  My SK on Nagafen is level 70 & is only lacking roughly 6-7 masters from having all final arts mastered.  My raid leader is a 70 Guardian & when fully buffed is about 3% from mitigation cap, if indeed the cap is 80%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is, do most of your raid leaders chose a Bruiser over an SK for MT grp?  Is the DPS buff they give really better then having an additional 375 (AD3) or 425 (Master) mitigation, a tap health group proc & 41 strength & stamina?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm also disappointed in the fact that the raid leader feels we are pretty worthless in the DPS department.  Granted, there were several SK's that reached the cap prior to me so he may be basing his opinon off parses he has seen w/ them.  However, since I started raiding, I have been doing my own parses & routinely show up in the top 4-6 DPS usually.  Hell, I've even been top DPS a few times (prob people slacking, but none the less work ethic counts too).  The raid leader dislikes seeing parses in raid chat so it's kind of hard disproving his beliefs.  How do you convince your guild/raid leader you actually bring vaue to the raid?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I can take pride in the fact I have saved countless deaths using FD on others who grabbed too much aggro.  I only FD'ed the main tank once in that split second he regained aggro <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking forward to hearing from my fellow SK's =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: I look forward to Intervene being fixed so we can add that bit much more to a raid.  Divine Aura should go a long way for back-up raid tanking when the MT goes down.  It should allow us to take some hits while allowing healers to refocus their heals (and senses) on us as well as someone getting the MT back-up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: I dont think raid leader has anything personal against me either - he just configures raid to what he thinks will be most succesful. BTW it's usually 2-3 healers (different sub-classes, a dirge or coercer & bruiser or assasin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Notorious_GIB on <SPAN class=date_text>06-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:51 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Notorious_GIB on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 AM</span>

[EasternKing]

<P>well just to cheer you up, </P> <P>my MT group is pretty much set in stone and its like this </P> <P>Me / Fury /  Temp / Deflier /  SK / Coercer. </P> <P>i will always take a crusader over a brawler ...mitigation .  str bonus / wards / heals all add up to far far more  than what a brawler brings to an MT group. as for DPS an SK in a mage group with a troub can break 1300 dps ...mine in the MT group floats between 700-900 DPS, so it sounds to me like your raid leader has got no idea what the strenghts and added benefits a crusader adds to the MT group.</P>

[raven0]

LOL, you shouldnt still be in your level 10 newbie guild when you ding 70. Disband from that guild and join a topnotch level 70 guild. Will make all the difference.<div></div>

[Notorious_G]

<P>Thanks you two for the replies.  EasternKing, I'm surprised you choose a Coercer over a Dirge.  I don't want to de-rail this post, but I am curious as to your reasoning.</P> <P> </P> <P>Raven, I'm actually a member of a guild that is considered the premier Freeport based raiding guild on Nagafen.  Exploiters aside, we were the 1st to hit guild lvl 40 in Freeport & 2nd to hit lvl 40 server wide (by like an hour).  Until recently, we were the only Freeport guild raiding T7 content.  If I was to leave my current guild, I would be going to 2nd best.  In addition, I like the people in my guild =)</P>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> raven098 wrote:<BR>LOL, you shouldnt still be in your level 10 newbie guild when you ding 70. Disband from that guild and join a topnotch level 70 guild. Will make all the difference.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I really have to wonder what the heck that has to do with the OP, nor what it has to do at all with the ability for a guild to raid.  Thread hijacking anyone?

[EasternKing]

<P></P> <HR> <P>Notorious writes :</P> <P>Thanks you two for the replies.  EasternKing, I'm surprised you choose a Coercer over a Dirge.  I don't want to de-rail this post, but I am curious as to your reasoning.</P> <HR> <P>ok first off why not to put the bruiser in the Mt group : 1 they buff dps (group) 2 they give the MT a chance to make avoid checks on there avoid</P> <P>ok no 1 if the bruiser is in the scout group the whole group gets the beneift of the dps rather than just the MT and the bruiser so 2 players get 20% or 5 players get 20% dps bonus, i know which i would be choosing. second the avoid buff is about best 47% chance for making avoid checks on the brawlers avoid. i have tested this prety exahustivley and the straight up mitigation bonus from a crusader works out ALWAYS on the MT takes less damage.</P> <P>why do i use a corcer over a dirge ? simply put if you want to be breaking 15k dps as a raid force you need the added hate generation of the coercer, run out of power cos a mob has Drained you,coercer simply   puts mana cloak on you every time the MT is hit they get power back, power is low in the group ? coercer hits channel and evens out the power of the group, so for example i sit about 6500 power raid buffed, my group running low on power ...get mages to feed me and mana cloak soon as im 100% power have the corcer channel and happy days my healers all just jumped from low 5% power to 35% or so power.</P> <P>i know everyone raids with a dirge in the MT group, well mine left to work abroad for 6 months at the start of T7 and i have tanked everything but 6 encounters we havent killed yet with a coercer in the MT group. we take 6-8 healers on a full 24 man raid. so its not like losing the parry buff and the stoneskin procs from the dirge have made us need an extra healer to cope with them buffs not being there.</P>

[Impetus]

<div><blockquote><hr>Notorious_GIB wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div>My raid leader is a 70 Guardian & when fully buffed is about 3% from mitigation cap, if indeed the cap is 80%.</div><hr></blockquote>I thought the general theory is that the displayed 80% is only against a mob that is your level. (That is, if your raid leader is tanking something above level 70, he's not at the cap.)Feel free to correct me if that's not the case.</div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P> simply put if you want to be breaking 15k dps as a raid force you need the added hate generation of the coercer,</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>not really true, most nights i have neither a dirge or coercer in MT group...  we still average above 15k...</P> <P>SK over bruiser in MT group...  why have either???  i hate having another tank in the MT group, they just don't add enough to warrent a spot imo...  my normal group has been, MT, inquizy, defiler, warden, swashy, conjy...  on a good night it would be MT, templar, warden, defiler, dirge, coercer...</P> <P>SKs can make a raid easier...  look at HoS, like everything fears there, it can be cured but with a fearless SK why not have him tank???  one less things for healers to cure, less repositioning of the mobs...</P> <P>if i do have another tank i the MT group SK is my first choice, but thats normaly because we're fighting something where the MT has a decent chance of dieing and the SK can pickup the tanking (we're only useing 6 healers on most things)...</P> <P>memwipe mobs the taunts over time actully are a boon...</P> <P>as for total raid setup, i hate having a scout group or a caster group...  you're deminishing the total raid dps doing this...</P>

[Agamemno]

nah SKs are pretty much worthless. Our DPS is easily outdone by classes with far more utility, our utility is easily outdone by pretty much everyone, our tanking is outdone by pretty much any fighter, our buffs are all lackluster.I can see no reason anyone would pick us over any other class for a raid in any situtation.But we'll never get better because then the qtards will cry even more that we're over powered. I just don't understand.<div></div>

[Notorious_G]

<DIV> <P>EaternKing, I see the logic.  Thanks for explaining.  I can see how a Coercer would be prefered over a Dirge for the power draining mobs as well.</P> <P>Wabit, I'm on a PvP server.  As the Freeport faction, we don't have the option to group w/ a templar, conjy or swash etc.</P> <P>Agamemnoch, I feel for you that you feel so badly about our class.  I would suggest shelving your SK for now & playing another class until SOE makes a change you are happy with.  Roll a Troub on Nagafen, we sure as hell could use more of those around.  We got about 13 Troub T6/T7 masters in our guild bank alone waiting for a Troub to join our guild.</P> <P>I finally dropped 5 plat down on the Pledge of Armament master after the guy gave me a 50% discount.  I let my raid leader know in a tell that I can now add 665 to his mitigation.  425(PoA)+240(Elixir of Metallic Hues) I'm a 68 Alchemist as well =) I listed our tap group proc stats along w/ our 54+ Str & Stam.  At least he knows it is there as an option now if he didn't know already.  Also, last night during our relic runs in the Labs, we had 14 people.  Overall DPS parse of all 14 people, I came out 2nd to the necromancer.  Yes, there are so many factors to consider, but when it comes down to it the SK was near the top to represent.  I also make sure to provide the parse at the end of the raid now which the raid leader has no objections to.</P> <P>Regarding mitigation at 80% cap vs a lvl 70 epic, does anyone know if a mitigation buff pushing a lvl 70 MT over the cap will be helpful vs say a lvl 72 or 74 Epic?</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Notorious_GIB on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[Ixnay]

<DIV>In my opinion, a second fighter of any class is a total waste in the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have better options.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before anyone suggests I don't know what I'm talking about, my guild has killed every mob in game except Nagafen in Sol's Eye and the orange level 75 encounter in Halls of Seeing, but those encounter's remain unkilled gamewide.</DIV>

[Xanoth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Notorious_GIB wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Regarding mitigation at 80% cap vs a lvl 70 epic, does anyone know if a mitigation buff pushing a lvl 70 MT over the cap will be helpful vs say a lvl 72 or 74 Epic?</P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>how much it helps im not sure, but as is always the case with epics going over the cap still helps, as its a soft cap.</P> <P>i think there is more info on it at eq2i.com<BR></P>

[Notorious_G]

<DIV> <DIV>Ixnay, you must be on a PvE server.  On a PvP server you lose about half your class choices for raids.  I'm curious, what would be your MT group make-up if you could only choose from evil or neutral classes vs a 75 Epic?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xan, I'm not having any luck w/ that address.  Would you mind providing a link?</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Notorious_GIB on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Xanoth]

<P>i guess the site had the plug pulled or i having trouble, i've not been there for a while so could be either...</P> <P>its explained quite well here though:</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mochlod wrote:<BR>It's not exactly 6000 mit/resists to hit 80% in all cases. The formula to see the 80% cap for a lvl 70 player  is <B>Level of mob * 80</B>, but for some reason there is a difference between gear and buffs and the returns they give.<BR><BR>ex. 1 If you're using ONLY the mods from gear then the number to achieve 80% resist/mit vs a lvl 70 mob is only 5600 (<B>70 * 80</B>). <BR><BR>ex. 2 If you use any kind of buff to increase a resist or mitigation then the new number to reach 80% vs a lvl 70 mob is 6000 (<B>70 * 80 + 400</B>)<BR><BR>It is very easy to see this in action if you're a fighter. Activate your defensive stance and look at the resist that your stance increases (Heat for Guardians, Cold for Berzerkers, etc). In order to get 80% vs. a level 70 mob you need 6000. Now deactivate that stance and use items (like moonstone resist gear) to increase your heat resist and you'll see that you only need 5600 to get 80%. <BR><BR>The actual number required to hit 80% vs a lvl 75 mob (not counting the penalty for orange mobs because there isnt a visible way to see what the penalty is) is actually 6000. Remember though that in this case the 6000 would have to be without using buffs to get that number. If there is a constance 400 difference (as in the above examples) between the two then the number maybe more like 6400 if you include your buffs. Please note that my level of buffs could be efffecting that 400 number so im not sure if that number applies to everyone though it seems to apply to me and the other 2 guardians in my guild. <BR><BR>Pinski above me said <I>"Highest Level "killable" mobs are Level 75, you'd need around 9000-10000 mitigation due to the orange penalty to get 80% mitigation."</I> <BR>... i'd be interested in knowing where he gets this information. I'm unable to see any noticeable difference against any level of mob with any resist between 6000-13000, the parses just dont show me taking less damage. <BR><BR><I>"Any idea if we could test that? Perhaps take a scout with 3.5k mit and mentor to 60"....<BR>..</I>I tried to mentor to 60 to do some testing but it seems that mentoring jacks the numbers up. A level 70 guardian mentoring to 60 is quite a bit stronger than a natural 60. The display numbers maybe incorrect when mentoring but i wasnt able to get data that i would consider reliable. Not enough to figure out the Tier penalties anyway.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Ok, to answer the OP and a few other issues that I see here. First off, a crusader in the MT group over a bruiser, I agree, if you want another MT in there. The only true reason that I can see them is if the MIT of the MT is too low to be attempting  the mob that you're after, in which case the MIT buff from a crusader is excellent at filling some of the gap.  Personally, I don't use another tank in my group usually. Our MT group is set up like this usually: Me, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge, and usually a swashie/conjourer. I would perfer a coercer for their hate buff since it's a bit higher than the dirge and their utility is awsome IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as SK's as DPS, yeah. I've parsed 1st on our raids when I was DPS/MA in our raids. My usual spot on the parser was around 3-6 usually. If you have all of your spells upgraded to adept 3 or higher, are in defensive with the spell crits maxed and your INT and STR capped, you're going to deal some serious damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the poster that stated that our class was useless, man, roll a new toon if you feel that way. I for one love this class and honestly see it as one of the more powerful plate tanking classes if played properly. Guards can whine that they're broken all that they want, they're not the only classes whinning on these boards. This class can be used for almost any purpose if you or your raid leader so chose. I personally am the MT for my guilds raids and have yet to really run into a mob that I can't handle as well as a guardian or zerker my lvl. If you have a mob that is hitting hard initially, throw a fury in your MT group, use urchin for the initial blows and have a defiler/mystic and brigiand debuff the hell out of the mob and as soon as urchin is down, you're gtg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, by all means tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm not in a high end raiding guild by far. My guild raids t7 content a few times a week as we are a casual raiding guild. I don't personally see a point in thrashing every mob in the game at the moment considering that we won't really see much new content with the new update in june and will have to wait untill november to see some different action. I like to personally hit every mob that my guild can take at this point and enjoy the challenge, it's what makes the raiding aspect fun imo. As far as a guild or any raid using a SK as a MT, hell, why not honestly. The words that I've heard Wabbit say, sry if I don't repeat them word for word wabbit but I have had a long week -_-, "A plate tank is a tank." I've seen him/her go off about using all of their tanks to MT their raids and I've seen other guilds use SK's for the MT spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the OP, if your guild leader doesn't see your worth after your parses, I would move on to a different guild, even if it is second best. At least that way you can enjoy the game again and not have to worry about it. This is the point of the game, is it not? If you don't think that we can tank, then follow me my friend, I'll show you a whole new world to this class =D. Nice seeing you again EK, at least I know you haven't died off the boards <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </DIV>