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Greyfawn
06-04-2006, 11:27 PM
<DIV>Level 22 Shadowknight and new to tanking here...my main being a dirge, I have a few questions regarding spells.  First the intercept/intervene line:  when exactly is this used?  If my healer or other group member is getting creamed by the mob, do I throw this on them and then try to peel the mob off?  Or should I be proactive and cast this before the pull?  How do other tanks use this type of spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, I need some advice regarding buffs such as "evasive tactics" and "offering of armament."  Should I always put evasive tactics up on someone who stands a good chance of getting bashed...like the healer or dps?  Is "offering of armament" something I would use only if I was off-tanking? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would appreciate information regarding these targetted buffs and any other bits of useful advice you might offer...I want folks in my group to live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

HajimeSai
06-05-2006, 02:32 AM
Well, in any one of those cases it is completely situational. For Intervene / Intercept, consider the following: 1) Use it when some one other then yourself is pulling. This helps soften the burst damage to the puller while they get the mob to you, and debuffs are applied. 2) The second a high DPS mob gets pulled off you. If you are quick enough with using Rescue, HT, and other agro abilities... the damage you soak up could be enough to decide if the person makes it. 3) When you are offtanking and the MT is getting a touch low. Be it because the healer likes to make the tanks sweat, or he just sucks... or he is OOP. It may not be much, but I can't count how many fights I have won by the seat of my pants... or the ones I have lost by a slim margin. 4) With the upcoming fixes to the line, allowing us to actually use our mitigation when intercepting damage, it will be pretty useful in raids to use on the MT to soften up the burst damage on the pull. This falls in line with item 1, but it will be accentuated when the fix comes online. Evasive Tactics - this is a combat art that I don't usually throw out right at the start of the group except for the bonus parry. I will watch the group closely and see who is most likely to pull agro off me. If I have an Assassin that can't distinguish between [Removed for Content] and DPS, I will toss it to them. If I get a healer that can't stomach the notion of me being below 98% HP, they will get it. If everyone is conservative then I will just toss it on a healer and call it a day. If I have time, I may even try to transition it if something goes crazy, but it is not usually on the top of my list of things to do. Offering of Armament - This is a tricky one. I usually only use this when I am fairly certain I won't be called on to tank. If I do find myself tanking, the MT finds himself short of that mitigation buff. I for one thing this line is an absolute insult to our class. Shadow Knights are selfish... we couldn't care less if the Guardian has a couple hundred more mitigation... especially if we have to sacrifice our own to give it to them. The only time the words "sacrifice" and "Shadow Knight" should be used in the same context is if virgins are involved! I would like to add one other tip which I am certain you have figured out by now, but I found it the hard way. When it comes to our FD spells, it may seem like a good idea to just target through a mob when it turns to some one else.... but it can be DEADLY. I was tanking in Fallen Gate when the healer snagged a smidge of agro from me. After the first taunt and his health failing, I decided to feign him. Well at the same tick that I hit the spell, the mob came back to me. Needless to say, I hit the deck followed closely by my group. Figures... the one time the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spell actually works and it killed us all. Make a macro, or get good at switching targets fast.... just be very careful about using FD while targeting through a mob! <div></div>

Greyfawn
06-05-2006, 08:05 AM
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.  You have validated much of what I thought I had figured out (except it probably would have taken me a tank or two before I thought about putting Intervene on the puller...so far it's mostly been me.)

Jebaris
06-05-2006, 08:15 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfawn wrote:<BR> <DIV> First the intercept/intervene line:  when exactly is this used?  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Real Shadowknights do not put these on hotbars. If you want to wear plate but dont want to tank then be a templar.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV>If my healer or other group member is getting creamed by the mob, do I throw this on them and then try to peel the mob off?  Or should I be proactive and cast this before the pull?  How do other tanks use this type of spell?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Better to FD the offender. A face plant in the dirt should teach them how to manage aggro better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, I need some advice regarding buffs such as "evasive tactics" and "offering of armament."  Should I always put evasive tactics up on someone who stands a good chance of getting bashed...like the healer or dps?  Is "offering of armament" something I would use only if I was off-tanking? </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Both are wastes of spells.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would appreciate information regarding these targetted buffs and any other bits of useful advice you might offer...I want folks in my group to live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>huh? Did you say you were a SK or paladin?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Rylight
06-05-2006, 09:09 PM
<DIV>Jabaris wrote </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Greyfawn wrote:<BR> <DIV> First the intercept/intervene line:  when exactly is this used?  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Real Shadowknights do not put these on hotbars. If you want to wear plate but dont want to tank then be a templar.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>alright first off this simply is<U> not true</U>  (not sure if Jabaris was just kidding around a bit but...), "REAL" shadowknights use every one of their spells to their full advantage when the time comes to use that spell. the intercept line is mostly an off-tank kinda spell, as well as offering of armament line and evasive tactics. All spells used when you are in a group where another tank is MTing and you are helping out. as an off-tank sk you can grant a heal/damage ward, take damage (intercept line) when the MT is getting in the red and the healer could use a few more extra seconds to cast, and also give your mitigation to the MT considering you are off-tanking and dont need it. I have used all these spells to save lifes before (except maybe the evasive tactics line considering you really cant tell) anyways like I said, if you are MTing most of the time you will rarely use these spells, otherwise use them when the time has come, like when the MT is really low on life, take some damage for him, or all your tuants are down and the wizard is getting beat on, intercepting his damage may give you just enough time to recast a tuant or give the healer enough time to get a big heal on him, whatever seems to work the best. These spells are not the always the best or direct, but they do give us options.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If my healer or other group member is getting creamed by the mob, do I throw this on them and then try to peel the mob off?  Or should I be proactive and cast this before the pull?  How do other tanks use this type of spell?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Better to FD the offender. A face plant in the dirt should teach them how to manage aggro better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>partially true, as an sk you have basically 3 emergency tuant's, rescue, Harmtouch , and Feign death in that order (if your on a pvp server you may want to save your HT if possible, unless in an instance or something) if all three of your emergency taunts are down as well as your regular tuants, then my advice is to kick/stun as much as possible, and toss on that intercept spell till you can get your regular tuants back up and recast them, and if you cant gain aggro back,,,,,well your healer is probably dead by this point, I mean honestly you have done everything you can do and are basically out of options, but if you ever get into a group were you have to use all 3 of your emergency tuants, all your regular tuants, and are still having aggro problems, either A) something is wrong with that group or the healer in that group, or B) something is wrong with your tanking skills and you need to upgrade your spells. Every now and then you will lose aggro, that keeps the game interesting, but as the sk you can be the hero and have many skills/spells to gain aggro back. (honestly I really dont have any problems with healers when it comes to aggro, just assasians, necros, and warlocks, and even then I can usually do just fine)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, I need some advice regarding buffs such as "evasive tactics" and "offering of armament."  Should I always put evasive tactics up on someone who stands a good chance of getting bashed...like the healer or dps?  Is "offering of armament" something I would use only if I was off-tanking? </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Both are wastes of spells.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>once agian not true, these spells (well at least offering of armament) are both useful. most sk's dont like to admit they are ueful because it makes most sk's feel inferior because for the most part they are indeed off-tanking spells. first off nobody in the group should have a "good chance of getting bashed" and if they do they need to hold off on the dps/aggro a bit, because they are probably just button mashing. Even though you are the MT aggro control is a group effort, and sadly sk's are on the bottom of the list when it comes to aggro, so ppl have to work with you, which is what we like to call (playing your class). much like when I invite a coercer into the group I no longer use my aoes. otherwise why the heck would I invite a mezzer? all in all if you are off-tanking cast these two spells on the MT, (though most tanks already have a spell similiar to evasive tactics, so dont be surprised if you get a message saying "well not take effect")</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would appreciate information regarding these targetted buffs and any other bits of useful advice you might offer...I want folks in my group to live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>huh? Did you say you were a SK or paladin?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>hehe, sounds like he is just messing with you, anyways good luck and I hope that advice helped</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV>

Jebaris
06-05-2006, 10:29 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rylight wrote:<BR> <DIV>Jabaris wrote </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Greyfawn wrote:<BR> <DIV> First the intercept/intervene line:  when exactly is this used?  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Real Shadowknights do not put these on hotbars. If you want to wear plate but dont want to tank then be a templar.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>alright first off this simply is<U> not true</U>  All spells used when you are in a group where another tank is MTing and you are helping out. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Real Shadowknights MT and not just 'help out'. There is no other tank. Therefore there is no need to put these on hotbars.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>If my healer or other group member is getting creamed by the mob, do I throw this on them and then try to peel the mob off?  Or should I be proactive and cast this before the pull?  How do other tanks use this type of spell?</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Better to FD the offender. A face plant in the dirt should teach them how to manage aggro better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>partially true, as an sk you have basically 3 emergency tuant's, rescue, Harmtouch , and Feign death in that order </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Your 3 taunts have short recast timers and you should be casting them (ie Blasphemy) every 30 seconds or so. Then comes FD because the reuse timer is 5 min</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Then comes Resuce because the reuse timer is 10 min </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Then comes HT because the reuse timer is 15 min</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>There seems to be some sort of aversion to using FD as aggro control. I like to combat that with using it more often like for mouth control.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Second, I need some advice regarding buffs such as "evasive tactics" and "offering of armament."  Should I always put evasive tactics up on someone who stands a good chance of getting bashed...like the healer or dps?  Is "offering of armament" something I would use only if I was off-tanking? </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Both are wastes of spells.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>once agian not true, </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>sadly sk's are on the bottom of the list when it comes to aggro</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>This line of thinking dosent take into consideration the gazillion variables that come into play like: spell levels, skill levels, gear quality, weapon choice, mob type, number of mobs, character development choices, AA choices, etc. I will consent that weak players cause perception because its harder to play an SK well. </FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000> if you are off-tanking cast these two spells on the MT</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>Real SKs dont off tank. you have plate and a shield, if you want to DPS play a wiz alt</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I would appreciate information regarding these targetted buffs and any other bits of useful advice you might offer...I want folks in my group to live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6633ff>huh? Did you say you were a SK or paladin?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>hehe, sounds like he is just messing with you, anyways good luck and I hope that advice helped</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P><BR><FONT color=#6633ff>I'm mostly tounge and cheek here and obviously just my option, but i hope my message is getting through = why play an SK if you arent going to be MT?  </FONT><FONT color=#6633ff>I'd rather be tradeskilling</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nicholai24
06-06-2006, 12:25 AM
<DIV> <P>Now me personally, I love to tank, and as far as aggro. control is concerned, I was handling Level 70 wizard and warlock aggro. when I was a 65 shadowknight, so I can't imagine what the issue would be for people with better equipment than myself at 70.</P> <P>In any event, there's no reason <EM>not </EM>to have Devious Evasion up, simply because it can keep a healer alive if an unexpected add shows up, and because it benefits us via a boost to our own evasion by way of increased Parry skill.</P> <P>Offering of Armament is nice if you're lower level and more poorly equipped than another tank in the group, but it doesn't amount to much more than an extra 1% damage absorbed, which isn't enough (in my mind) to warrant transferring several % of your own absorb. rating. Truth to tell, if things are going poorly and an enemy is on a healer or soft class which the other tank is ignoring, you'll need to step in and handle it with your own rescue powers and taunts, and you don't want to be gimped by being in both Offensive stance <EM>and </EM>Offering of Armament. You'll have the mitigation of a ranger, and that's no good at all.</P> <P>I'll say they're situational. Learn what works in which situations, and what makes a bigger difference to you. Myself, I'm a lazy lizard, and sometimes I'd rather whip out my katana, drop into Offensive stance, launch Death March, and carve into things for 2,000+ after I've been tanking for the better part of five hours. There's nothing wrong with letting some poor fool from Qeynos get punched in the face <EM>for </EM>you.</P></DIV>

Cichlasoma
06-06-2006, 01:58 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfawn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Level 22 Shadowknight and new to tanking here...my main being a dirge, I have a few questions regarding spells.  First the intercept/intervene line:  when exactly is this used?  If my healer or other group member is getting creamed by the mob, do I throw this on them and then try to peel the mob off?  Or should I be proactive and cast this before the pull?  How do other tanks use this type of spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>I'd have to agree with Jebaris, whomever pulls agro will eat dirt everytime. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, I need some advice regarding buffs such as "evasive tactics" and "offering of armament."  Should I always put evasive tactics up on someone who stands a good chance of getting bashed...like the healer or dps?  Is "offering of armament" something I would use only if I was off-tanking? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>The only time I have ever used whichever one of these has been in a raid situation. As for Group situation if you don't have the avoidance or mit for group content then get the hell out of my way and I will tank it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would appreciate information regarding these targetted buffs and any other bits of useful advice you might offer...I want folks in my group to live <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>If someone gets agro don't screw around, use FD, HT or rescue them right away.  If you ever get into a situation where one of those 3 are not up then you better re-evaluate the group you are in. </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Nicholai24
06-06-2006, 02:52 AM
<DIV>If there's a choice between <EM>having </EM>an extra 1% ( or even <EM>less </EM>) avoidance, and <EM>not </EM>having it.. Can you give me a scenario where it would be better to <EM>not </EM>have it?</DIV>

Diern
06-06-2006, 04:49 AM
<P>I follow the school of thought if you arent using all of your arsenal, you arent playing your Sk to its fullest potential.</P> <P>Offering of armanent and evasive tactics have thier uses. You cant tell me you have never been in a situation where it was better for the group if another tank took over as MT due to the encounter or simply being better equiped. Its about using your brain.</P> <P>Intercept with the changes to mitigation will be a good tool, no where near a waste.</P>

Rylight
06-06-2006, 09:52 AM
I totally agree with most of you, I too think the best role for the sk is the MT in a group, however there are those situations where that just doesnt happen, and you are reduced to off-tanking. however as an sk you have the power to lead and start the groups, and with that power you can also exclude inviting other tanks to the group, which is pretty much what I do (my exception is a lower lvl bruiser)

Jebaris
06-06-2006, 05:02 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote:<BR> <P>Intercept with the changes to mitigation will be a good tool, no where near a waste.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree You can come to my group and give me your mitigation if I cant find a DPS class.

Xanoth
06-06-2006, 05:05 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>If there's a choice between <EM>having </EM>an extra 1% ( or even <EM>less </EM>) avoidance, and <EM>not </EM>having it.. Can you give me a scenario where it would be better to <EM>not </EM>have it?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>killing lots of solo trash mobs, i generaly wear a robe, ditch my shield...  but i also usually have a fury and warlock with me, both have reactive damage procs. so i do a lot more damage if i get hit more, as all those reactive procs crit at my spell crit chance.</P> <P> </P> <P>the only time i do serisouly wish my avoidance was higher is on raids</P>

Jebaris
06-06-2006, 05:17 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>If there's a choice between <EM>having </EM>an extra 1% ( or even <EM>less </EM>) avoidance, and <EM>not </EM>having it.. Can you give me a scenario where it would be better to <EM>not </EM>have it?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The 2 seconds it takes to cast Evasive Tactics is better used typing /g dont get aggro or you will get a face plant</P> <P>That spell is an enabling crutch that can give a false sence of security</P>

Greyfawn
06-06-2006, 08:13 PM
Thanks for all the advice.  I just dinged 25 last night, so now with rescue in my arsenal some of my other questions are moot points.  One last question...as a dirge, and an old school EQ player, I use /assist [main tank name] for targetting.  I know there is controversy whether people use this or just assist through the tank.  I'm inclined to prefer others use /assist on me, or target through a main assist, because I'm already noticing that I have to change targets sometimes to peel off an add.  What are your preferences for how others target?  Is this really only a problem at lower levels when folks are still learning.  Does it really just not matter in the long run?

Cichlasoma
06-07-2006, 01:13 AM
Everyone in the group should be targetting through you or a MA or using /assist. If you are having problems where you are losing agro on a group mob that you are not targetted on then the person who pulled agro is not doing their job. Explain to them to target through you. If they keep pulling agro let em die and they will change their mind. Agro is a group effort, especially for a SK. You also may want to have the group delay fighting for about 4 seconds to allow you to get some good agro established.

Jebaris
06-07-2006, 07:59 AM
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for 99% of players:</DIV> <DIV>everyone should target you and know that if you change targets before the mob is dead you are doing it for aggro reasons</DIV> <DIV>different classes will react differently to that information, healers know what to do if your new target is a group member, DPS will decide weather or not its safe to nuke or find the origional target, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why? On top of HOs, spell timers, heals, tells from your harem, guild chat, beer, etc you have aggro. It's hard enough to follow whats happening, using a separate MA can quickly complicate the situation which makes it extra challenging</DIV>