Hate Generation..

[DMIstar]

<DIV>Per Devs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>1 hate point = 1 damage point</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The same amount of hate is generated when the damage is dealt. 1:1</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Hate naturally decays <U>very</U> slowly, but it can never naturally reach zero alone.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>A pet's death causes the hate they generated to be applied towards the caster.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Taunt amounts are not affected by resists, but lowering resists can help a Taunt from being outright resisted.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Heals/Wards have less than a 1:1 threat return.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Each debuff spell generally causes the same amount of hate appropriate for their level, as do control abilities have amounts of hate that they each generate for their level. Dispatch itself is not the primary cause of grabbing hate, rather it is how a Brigand often combines it with Subdue and Double Up (Subdue having both high damage and a control component hate, and Dispatch having high damage and debuff hate).</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P>So first thing comes to mind is our pet... So when out pet goes away we are supposed to get all the points of hate it did ? going by the 1dmg = 1hate idea ..</P> <P>and would this also Mean that our Lifetaps would get two sets of hate gains.. One for damage and one for healing ?</P> <P>I think both of these are nulled on hate for us ;P</P><p>Message Edited by DMIstar on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[ssythe]

Curious as to how much hate stuns cause or did i totally miss the boat on that 1?

[Ellestil]

<P>Pet as in a sustained pet. Swarm pets ( which have a limited duration and are basically just a fancy graphical dot ) would add hate the same as any damage spell would. A sustained pet divides aggro with the player. He is viewed on the hate list as his own persona. However, if he dies, all hate is then transfered to the owner. If this method applied to swarm pets, nec's and conj's would live very short lives on raids. Hope that helps.</P> <P>Ellestil</P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellestil wrote:<BR> <P>Pet as in a sustained pet. Swarm pets ( which have a limited duration and are basically just a fancy graphical dot ) would add hate the same as any damage spell would. A sustained pet divides aggro with the player. He is viewed on the hate list as his own persona. However, if he dies, all hate is then transfered to the owner. If this method applied to swarm pets, nec's and conj's would live very short lives on raids. Hope that helps.</P> <P>Ellestil</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>swam pet work the same as other pets...  think of a necro casting undeadtide, once the spell expires he'll basically get instant agro if the MT isn't really on the ball...  swarm pets act more like an ice nova type attack for agro generation...  they tic like dots but when they die the hate gained is like that of a straight nuke...  big AE kills the main pet and the swarm pets seems the same as a wizzy hitting icenova and fusion at the same time (50k hate to one person in a split sec)...

[Cichlasoma]

<P>Thats sad that that Dev has generalized that ratio. There is no way it is that simple! If that was the case, then why is it so hard to regain aggro off of someone. You can't tell me that from the moment I lost aggro that the other person has created more damage then what our taunts can produce. Ok maybe an assasin or wizzy, but I don't seem to have a problem holding aggro from them. Could a berzerker or bruiser do that much damage that I could not regain aggro with almost 2.5k worth of taunt? Unfortunately SK's cannot spam taunts that fast to keep up to this 1:1 ratio, and like usual depend on DPS to hold it. Lowering casting timers is not a solution because that would just lead to more power comsumption. Which leads to our 3 main issues.</P> <P>A) snap aggro problems</P> <P>B) too many stats</P> <P>C) High power consumption(partly caused by B)</P> <P>We lose to much defensive capabilities and power to get INT up.  It would be sad to see my SK sitting between fights because he has to wait for power in order to control. Half the time if someone pulls aggro I'll wait to see if the mob can be killed before the mob kills him before I decide to use a rescue option. </P>

[Ardnahoy]

<P>Our hate generation sucks.</P> <P>If you want to cry, play a guardain and marvel at how well they hold agro.</P> <P>Then again, if you want to cry some more, try to solo with the guardian.</P> <P>Our taunts suck, but our soloing skills don't. It's called balance.</P>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ardnahoy wrote:<BR> <P>Our hate generation sucks.</P> <P>If you want to cry, play a guardain and marvel at how well they hold agro.</P> <P>Then again, if you want to cry some more, try to solo with the guardian.</P> <P>Our taunts suck, but our soloing skills don't. It's called balance.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Our hate is balanced from solo ? huh? I guess pallies need a hate nerf then as well by your estimate ...</P> <P>as for Pet thing.. Its as simple as this ..Our pet is Dot that we go zero hate from for casting it.. Thats what it seems and Im to believe Other Classes Dumbfire/Swarm pets associate no aggro to the caster ? This would be like free damage with no concern of getting aggro for them lol. </P> <P>Fact is, theres is a disbalance of hate for Sks and I Can get away with alot spells with out consequence just because of this.. Where as any other class ive tried I actually gain hate for doing so ... I guess i realy shouldnt care for the simple fact that once its balanced i cant do as much in spells as i do, But I prefer a balanced game overall .. </P> <P> </P>

[Beldin_]

I think a good thing would be if the caress line could work as a group-buff, so that evenif somenone else gets hit it produces some aggro for the SK, because what i noticeis that i mostly have problems to get the aggro back if someone else is pulling a mobbut no problems to hold it if i've pulled the mob and he starts hitting me.

[SillyMonk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DMIstar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Per Devs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Heals/Wards have less than a 1:1 threat return.</FONT><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have a hard time buying into this one. It's a PIA to grab aggro off my healer when it hits him, even after I've been pounding on the mob a full 5-10 sec longer than he has.</P> <P>As far as balance? I think we're pretty balanced actually, we just have to play it with a bit more strategy than other fighters do as most of our hate is built into "Hate over Time" in our spells. We have to generate enough hate initailly to overcome the fact that we have only one strait taunt and let the HoT kick in. In a group setting this isn't easy, but it is doable. We trade the ability to "Spam-taunt" (like my 'Zerker and Bruiser do) for the ability to solo-duo extremely effectively. I can solo things I probably shouldn't be able to, but I have to work at it to keep aggro in a group sitch, but I can still manage to do so. Addt'l hate gain would be nice, of course, but I think that we're doing ok right now.</P> <P>Of course, I'll never turn down any Dev loving that gets thrown our way <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR>

[AziBam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beldin_ wrote:<BR>I think a good thing would be if the caress line could work as a group-buff, so that even<BR>if somenone else gets hit it produces some aggro for the SK, because what i notice<BR>is that i mostly have problems to get the aggro back if someone else is pulling a mob<BR>but no problems to hold it if i've pulled the mob and he starts hitting me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I also think that the Caress line might be the easiest fix for our hate issues.  My thought on the matter is to have the caress line spike a larger hate burst on the first hit...several hundred points of hate or more...then drop down to the normal or current amount.  This would give us a boost of aggro early in the fight when we need it most.  In addition, a spike of hate when we have an essence proc wouldn't hurt although with a 2% proc rate it isn't going to be all that helpful.   </P>

[Diern]

<DIV>Doesnt address how difficult it is too regain hate when you dont have it in the first place tho, sony really needs to throw us a god dmaned bone here :robotmad:</DIV>

[DMIstar]

<DIV>The point Realy im saying is one thing.. Back long ago in EQ i actually had to time my Debuffs and spells in risk of not getting agro ... esp in raids.. Example in Vel era we had a set of debuff taps .. at one time if I chain casted them, I would of had stollen aggro badly... After the nerf that ended and i was able to chain casting mostly every spell that was not linked to another type of caster..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here we have all our own spells and i can chain cast my whole lot with no fear at of stealing aggro... Therefore I have no consequence... Now yeah im happy about it.. but in the end its not right and nor balanced.. </DIV>

[Ardnahoy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DMIstar wrote:<BR> <P>Our hate is balanced from solo ? huh? I guess pallies need a hate nerf then as well by your estimate ...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you think that pallies can solo as well as SK's then we can end our conversation right now because I don't feel like arguing with an idiot.

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ardnahoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DMIstar wrote:<BR> <P>Our hate is balanced from solo ? huh? I guess pallies need a hate nerf then as well by your estimate ...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you think that pallies can solo as well as SK's then we can end our conversation right now because I don't feel like arguing with an idiot.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats Real educational.. Do you have any other nonsense to spill ? </P> <P>If ye have nothing intellegent to say why bother ?</P><p>Message Edited by DMIstar on <span class=date_text>05-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

<P>You forgot to spell 'intelligent' properly, smart guy.</P> <P>Go away, before someone who isn't as tolerant and mild as I am decides to eat your face.</P>

[Xanoth]

<div></div>i always thought pallies could solo quite well, but i dont really know any to really ask what they can solo.so, you're in PoA, your bored and waiting for the dragon to respawn, you drop group, and pull a deathknight (71 heroic), finish the fight on full health, half power. its not really a tough task, they dont hit hard, we do, we can self heal.  i would have though a pally could do the same, they have much less dps, but much better heals, surely they can do what we can, but take longer doing it?  i've also seen a guardian take the same challenge and was fine, although that was when their buckler avoidance was bugged, not sure how well they'd do normally.anyway... aint this offtopic? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />i think the real point is, most tank classes can solo well, some just take more effort, but the same goes for agro.  go read the forums for other tanks.. i dont think any forum has threads discussing how much they rock at holding agro, guardians included.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Xanoth on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <P>You forgot to spell 'intelligent' properly, smart guy.</P> <P>Go away, before someone who isn't as tolerant and mild as I am decides to eat your face.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Now we have two with nothing but insults ? how bout getting onto topic or is that much harder for you ?</P> <P>I dont like added threads to the endless lock pile that you guys like makeing... </P>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanoth wrote:<BR> i always thought pallies could solo quite well, but i dont really know any to really ask what they can solo.<BR> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually they can, May guild has 3 Active pallies. Two of which i dou with time to time... One of them is working on every inch of quests there are and has zero problems soloing things other then ^^^ greens and above. Also they have good healing capabilities if you know how to play them. </P> <P>anyway ufortunetly i dont have much else to say on.. in which wasnt in the two posts above. <BR></P>

[Nicholai24]

<P>So what you're saying is, paladins can solo well unless they're up against a green ^^^?</P> <P>Halfwit.</P>

[DMIstar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <P>So what you're saying is, paladins can solo well unless they're up against a green ^^^?</P> <P>Halfwit.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>and they are supposed to be takeing blue heroics ? Umm right ....

[Nicholai24]

<DIV>I've seen a shadowknight do it. I've seen necromancers handle yellow ones. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Alevyan]

Ah-hah, I understand now, so it reads to the mob as though the tank had actually done that much damage. Though I believe aggro can be locked down, honestly. For example, when a level 70 guardian has used 4 taunts in a fight, generating roughly 5,000 points of aggro, and possibly another 3-4,000 in aggro in damage dealt along side these taunts, a Wizard can use Fusion, crit and do 15,000 points of damage and not pull aggro. I'd be more inclined to believe that the Damage:Hate reading is actually somewhere around 1:3 or 1:5. <div></div>

[Xanoth]

lockeye confirmed that  1 damage = 1 hate; 1 health healed = 1 hatehe didn't say how buffs generated agro however.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alevyan wrote:<BR>Ah-hah, I understand now, so it reads to the mob as though the tank had actually done that much damage. Though I believe aggro can be locked down, honestly. For example, when a level 70 guardian has used 4 taunts in a fight, generating roughly 5,000 points of aggro, and possibly another 3-4,000 in aggro in damage dealt along side these taunts, a Wizard can use Fusion, crit and do 15,000 points of damage and not pull aggro. I'd be more inclined to believe that the Damage:Hate reading is actually somewhere around 1:3 or 1:5.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>wizzy casts deargo right before fusion, has the pet out, and maybe the lower hate AA (dunno if it actully works or not)...</P> <P>guard has 10% hate gain AA, lowering wizzy agro by 38% (moderate M1), frontloads his hate (6k from taunts), 5k from damage is like 12 secs (5ish CAs)...  one of our taunts isn't much use on a single mob, cast time is too long...  but most heroic encounters are dead within 10-20 secs...</P> <P>the 70^^^ droags below the dragons in PoA take me ~60 sec to solo, i'll only try the fighter and scout types though...  the priest/mage ones eat me up...  a yellow ^^^ just hits too hard for me to solo...  (my gear is the reason i can solo this)</P> <P>if you've got 3+ ppl grouped all lvl 70 wizzy might as well open up with icenova, he might get the cast off before the mob is dead...</P> <P>and tbh a guards agro is middle of the road at best, single target agro we're behind all but SKs, group we're behind paly and zerkers...  our only saving grace is reinforcement...  paly's are the true kings of agro...</P>