Different but Equal.

[hukikatlok]

<DIV>Ok, I've been thinking about this for a while but I'm just curious. Pretty much most of the spells that we have are different but equal to Pallys. They have 5 point blanks, we have 5 point blanks. They have lay on hands we have harm touch, the list goes on, etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do we have that is different but equal to Ammends? Or that group agro transfer, I think it's called Holy Sigil? That's 2 agro transfer spells they have. We get none.</DIV>

[Giral]

<DIV>Fieghn Death = Amends : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Holy Sigil = SK's AE damage ,   i never have a problem holding Group agro, it's the single target's that wiggle away from us, and when they do it's Fiegn death, <---gets agro right back,   if agro bounces to healer = Rescue,   if not back by then = HT  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can round up 5 group's and not lose Agro on any but the one i have targeted, and then only if i have a Dp's with a itchy trigger finger , i have grouped with Many paladin's that lose agro on group mob's consistantly , single target's they normally dont lose agro very often.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Skillied pallies will hold great agro as will any Skilled tank, and lose it rarely as agro is a group function and if you cant lead and command the group on what to do,  and when to do it then more times then not no matter what type of Tank you use they will lose agro .  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i personally don't care what pallies have ,  i MT 98 % of the time and only dont MT if a equal/better  Geared/ skilled Guardian is present as they cant do much if they arent MT ,  and then i can have fun being MA , Dp'sing, and pickin off add's , and lost agro : ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rylight]

<DIV>and remember we are not perfectly equal, most ALL our spells give damage, even those that dont do it directly, like cursed caress, plus they have nothing to equal up to our pet, and when things go wrong we get evac (they may get rez, but if they are all dead who is gonna rez?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways I see you were more focused on aggro, and yeah, I think they do hold aggro better then us, but they are more defensive so it kinda goes along with what they do, fair? not sure. equal? nope, but then agian I dont want to be a pally, so,,,,,,whatever, im happy with what I got now, though I do know exactly where you are coming from.</DIV>

[ArmadaXeenelk]

I was under the impression that they get a heal spell that uses a component similar to how our pet uses a component. I could be wrong :shrug:<div></div>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>SKs and Pallys have gotten to a point where we are quite possibly the most divergent classes in the game, out of all of the original subclass pairs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not really even different but equal - it's different and not entirely comparable.  While the duality makes sense from an RP perspective, it falls apart from a functional one.  We're closer to tank-necro hybrids, while Pallys are tank-priests.  Not all of our abilities are going to have direct counterparts - and I wouldn't want them to, as that unnecessarily limits the ability of the designers to deliver to each constituency a class that fits their needs.</DIV>

[Lord Montague]

Closest thing I can think of as far as passive hate abilities is the Caress line (the Feign Death isn't passive so it can't really compare - I look at it as an emergency spell only).  It may not seem like much, but that's hate being generated with each and every hit you take.  Disease debuffs in the beginning are a key factor in establishing aggro as they add a lot to the effectiveness of the Caress line.

[Margen]

<P>FD does not equal amends not even close.</P> <P>FD is a five minute timed spell, that might not even work.  Amends is a passive ability that continously transfers hate through every fight.  With no lose of dps from the dps class, you cast FD on a player they lose dps from that fight.  Why do you think warlocks love paladins?</P> <P>Also paladins have aoe's too.</P> <P>Our carress line is suppose to be the counter to amends, but its underpowered at this time in comparison.  Personally I don't want amends I want out carress line improved to make it equivilant to amends in hate gain.</P>

[Lord Montague]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> <P>FD does not equal amends not even close.</P> <P>FD is a five minute timed spell, that might not even work.  Amends is a passive ability that continously transfers hate through every fight.  With no lose of dps from the dps class, you cast FD on a player they lose dps from that fight.  Why do you think warlocks love paladins?</P> <P>Also paladins have aoe's too.</P> <P>Our carress line is suppose to be the counter to amends, but its underpowered at this time in comparison.  Personally I don't want amends I want out carress line improved to make it equivilant to amends in hate gain.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Grr....forum ate my post...so let me try this again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks love paladins?  Not mine.  I think it has a lot to do with what I know of how the different classes work and how they can compliment each other - this gets more into the teamwork element, which so often gets overlooked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as Amends vs. Caress, we are given numbers but we do not know what the numbers truly mean.  Part of that is meant to be a mystery so that we can apply more tactical thinking to a fight instead of just blind button-mashing.  They certainly don't compare, but it's more over how the different mechanisms work.  And I'm fairly certain that even if a warlock has Amends on them, if they start all out nuking at the beginning they will draw aggro anyway.</DIV>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lord Montague wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> <P>FD does not equal amends not even close.</P> <P>FD is a five minute timed spell, that might not even work.  Amends is a passive ability that continously transfers hate through every fight.  With no lose of dps from the dps class, you cast FD on a player they lose dps from that fight.  Why do you think warlocks love paladins?</P> <P>Also paladins have aoe's too.</P> <P>Our carress line is suppose to be the counter to amends, but its underpowered at this time in comparison.  Personally I don't want amends I want out carress line improved to make it equivilant to amends in hate gain.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Grr....forum ate my post...so let me try this again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks love paladins?  Not mine.  I think it has a lot to do with what I know of how the different classes work and how they can compliment each other - this gets more into the teamwork element, which so often gets overlooked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as Amends vs. Caress, we are given numbers but we do not know what the numbers truly mean.  Part of that is meant to be a mystery so that we can apply more tactical thinking to a fight instead of just blind button-mashing.  They certainly don't compare, but it's more over how the different mechanisms work.  And I'm fairly certain that even if a warlock has Amends on them, if they start all out nuking at the beginning they will draw aggro anyway.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Of course a warlock can steal aggro from any tank, thats not the issue really.  The issue is that a warlock is much more comfortable with a pally tank vs us, look on the warlock forms.  Fact is some warlocks say they won't except a SK tank (fortunatly my guild mates don't think that way).</P> <P>I just feel that our carress line is where we should get an improvement.   Amends is a powerful tool for pallys (good for them), and I feel that fits their class well, making our damage shield more in line with the amends hate I feel would help us fill our primary role better is all.  The problem in part is as a offensive tank, our dps takes IMO the largest hit of the tank classes when in defensive, due to how we produce our dps.</P> <P>I don't button mash and I don't expect us to cast our taunts and go get a beer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but i do get tired of losing hate when I am using every tool in my arsanal vs when I group with a pally who does not have that problem, or a beserker also.</P>

[Lord Montague]

<P>I think a major part of the problem is that this class has its challenges in group settings, and it is very easy at those times to play the class poorly.  A lot of people make a Shadowknight as their first character because of the coolness factor (hell, I did!) and the fact that we solo extremely well.  Then when it comes time to actually group they have no teamwork skills so the group ends up wiping because of some bad mistakes being made on the part of the Shadowknight.  Others in the group then translate that into Shadowknight = bad tank.</P> <P>So perhaps it's really more a mix of things.  A) Caress could use a boost, because at what point do you get an equivalent hate generation to the 41% transfer that Amends does? (we don't know, but perhaps the devs do), B) Other classes still need to learn to work with us (or any tank they are with for that matter, because they all have their shortcomings), and C) There is an image problem we have in the eyes of a few that we are not competent and that we can't get the job done - and that I think is most unfortunate for those people.</P> <P>Oh, and I do read the warlock board and I don't see them talk much about who their preferred tank is.  I see a lot of bickering between the disenchanted, the die hards, and everything in-between as far as whether or not the class is broken.  Like many of the classes, some have adapted and learned to excel in spite of everything, while others - not so much.</P><p>Message Edited by Lord Montague on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[Cichlasoma]

<DIV>Warlocks can either love or hate us depending on the person playing the SK, and their gear/spell lvls. If the SK can hold aggro well then a Warlock should love us as we debuff disease which is their damage base as well(this is why you hear Warlocks and SK's do not make a good combo). If the SK can't hold aggro then hell will break loose. </DIV>

[joeygopher]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cichlasoma wrote:<BR> <DIV>Warlocks can either love or hate us depending on the person playing the SK, and their gear/spell lvls. If the SK can hold aggro well then a Warlock should love us as we debuff disease which is their damage base as well(this is why you hear Warlocks and SK's do not make a good combo). If the SK can't hold aggro then hell will break loose. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly, if we both debuff on disease, we actually widen the gap between the amount of hate we're each generating.  Its asking to lose aggro to them.  But hey that's a small issue and I don't think many SKs would really complain about it - I'm sure other tanks can bring about situations like that with other DPS classes.</P> <P>I guess what I don't like about SK aggro-holding is how reactive it is.  We have to be being hit for caress to generate hate.  We have to have lost aggro to make use of FD.  Our single taunt is a taunt-over time.</P> <P>If we have to rely on FD, HT and Rescue to win back aggro, it makes us look lame as tanks.  If I was a dress-wearing caster, I'd pick the tank that wasn't gonna randomly let me take a brief but hard whacking.  Also, the recast on each of those means you can't use them every fight.  Or even every couple of fights.  But if you're not burning everything you have, you can easily find yourself needing them and more if you have 3 DPS classes in your group.</P> <P> </P>

[Giral]

<P>Joeygopher Said     :       If we have to rely on FD, HT and Rescue to win back aggro, it makes us look lame as tanks.  If I was a dress-wearing caster, I'd pick the tank that wasn't gonna randomly let me take a brief but hard whacking.  Also, the recast on each of those means you can't use them every fight.  Or even every couple of fights.  But if you're not burning everything you have, you can easily find yourself needing them and more if you have 3 DPS classes in your group.</P> <P> </P> <P>   all tanks can and will lose agro occasional to a group with 3 caster's , and every tank will try thier tuants first , and they dont nornally get Snap agro back , then they will go to thier secondary Regain tool's (Sk's  happen to be FD,HT,Rescue) all other tank's have some form of Emergancy tools to TRY to regain agro , and all Tank's hold out using Rescue(the Emergency regain tool)  as it's the only Regain tool that has the greatest chance of regaining agro,  And even MAstered Rescue can Fail . </P> <P>,Just last night Our Raid Guardian lost agro continuosly to the Berserker, did the Guard just use a Magic tuant button and he regained agro Immediatly ? NOPE he stood thier Tuanting his Aztericks off and if i wasn't blind had to use Rescue to get it back a couple times and when it wasn't up the Zerker either finish the mob off as Tank , or the Guard cycled thu his Tuants 3 time's and Finaly regained Agro . </P> <P> </P> <P>If Gaining ,Keeping,and Regaining agro was THAT easy for Tank's then what would be the Fun factor? you grab it keep it, if you lose it you get it Right back, <--- sound's kinda boring : ), and i seriuosly don't believe that SOE intends tanks to hold agro with No problem's even when they are Doing all they can to hold agro, and it's Intentional that we Lose agro and hence the reason we all have Various Tools to regain agro , YOU aren't Ment to lose Agro EVERY single fight and that is why the Emergency agro tool's have Long Re-cast timers on them , if they ARE always UP and ready to Snap agro back, then Tanking is as simple As pull Never lose agro 99% of the time and When you do lose agro that other 1 % of the time you will ALWAYS without Fail get it back with 1 Cast of a Magic save me button, </P> <P>Why can all Classes take quite a Few hit's ? even a Mage can take 4 or 5 hits from a MOB without a healer and Live , AND They get De-Agro tool's themselves as do i believe ALL non-Tank classes, why do other classes get De-agro tool's if it is intended a TANK should regain agro just with 1 or 2 tuant's , and this also would be a seriously Boring life for Healer's , just SIT and heal MT 99.9 % of the time  :   ( </P> <P>i believe all Tank's have an Issue with agro , and so do ALL the other classes : ) , i wil Admit that Holding Agro off of a Berserker to me is the hardest but they are a Tank/Dp's 99% of the time they are going to live thru the Whole fight with the Agro wyle you stand thier Tuanting and wasting your time , they are Still Laying on the DP's , A MAge would not still be Dp'sing , they would be awaiting Death : ) or for you to re-gain Agro so they could live another day , </P> <P> i normally don't lose agro to WIz,Warlock,Ranger,Etc....... and if i do they apologise : ) They know im going FULL out, they know i'm Working my Behind off to Grab-and Keep the Agro and if i Lose it  it was by no fualt of my own and when i do lose it , say 1 out of 10 fight's , i lose it for a 1 to 5 second's <-------------not enough time for even the weakest Paper mage to die , and even grouped for 4 hour's i can end the group with Rescue having never been used, </P> <P> </P> <P> (i would like to Know what SOE's-Random Agro loss Variable is set at  :  )  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. i have many Alt's and i don't know any  Tank Type i have ever grouped with that Can regain Snap agro to a Lost mob EVery single time ? depend's on lot's of factor's , did the person who grabbed agro Immediatly stop what they are doing and Wait for Tank to regain agro ? Did they cast thier De-agro Skill? Etc...........................i'm sure 1 or 2 Tank's have the Best ability to re-gain Agro better then a Sk with Normal Tuant's BUT even if it takes us 2 seconds longer  and 1 extra cast to get agro back realy the only person who could care about that 2 second's needs to Go Take a Breath of fresh AIR , lol </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[Margen]

<P>I don't have a major problem with Wizards and rangers (unless they go to hard on dps of course), but I have major problems with Warlocks, monks, and besekers and a lesser extent brigands (very good dps and debuffs make major hate LOL).  Single targets are easier then groups on maintaing hate, thats why I still feel that carress is where we need improvement.</P> <P>I never understood the logic of the class with the least amount of Mitigation and Hp's has to work the hardest for hate in all the tank classes.</P>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> joeygopher wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>Exactly, if we both debuff on disease, we actually widen the gap between the amount of hate we're each generating.  Its asking to lose aggro to them.  But hey that's a small issue and I don't think many SKs would really complain about it - I'm sure other tanks can bring about situations like that with other DPS classes.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It can work for the warlock...or against them.  Debuffs are a double-edged sword, so that's something to bear in mind.  Also, our aggro generation is very heavily disease based, so disease debuffs give us far greater aggro potential but it has to be given a little time to build or it's not effective.

[Beldin_]

<blockquote><hr>Margen wrote:<P>I don't have a major problem with Wizards and rangers (unless they go to hard on dps of course), but I have major problems with Warlocks, monks<hr></blockquote>The problem with monks is mostly that they forgot to turn of dragon stance, and even if you thinkits stupid to ask .. ask them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Margen]

Oh I do trust me LOL, just they can produce awsome dps and have no hate drain.  So they can snag aggro in offensive fairly easy.

[Atiknig]

<DIV>I'm not sure if anybody has already posted this but we can pull with our pets and seperate some of the mobs. Never seen a pally able to do that. I will just pull a group of mobs and as long as pets atking it, I can feign death  and let other non grouped mobs run back and get up and take the agro and loot lol.</DIV>