Top Five Issues - Shadowknight

[Ceruline]

<DIV> <P>Here's the first aggregation. I'm going to do my best to get the items with the most consensus around them here.  I'll continue to modify these based on all feedback before sending them.  (I apologize for formatting issues, but the boards ate my formatting with that invalid HTML error....)</P> <P>1. Aggro. Shadowknights have a tougher time generating and maintaining aggro than the other fighter classes. The following have been brought up as important contributors to this: (This is an issue both for raiding and grouping) </P> <P>Lack of significant ability to generate "snap aggro". Our primary single target taunt is hate-over-time, which means that often by the time we've regained the mob's attention, this is because it has already finished eating whoever drew aggro. </P> <P>Our overall hate output still seems to pale in comparison to other tanks. It has been observed that generally speaking the dps classes have progressed much more in their output capability than Fighters in general have progressed in their ability to generate hate - however SKs, even with the hate added due to our dps, don't have nearly the aggro generation capability that the Warrior subclasses do (A problem which Paladins would also share if not for Amends) The boost to our primary taunt some patches back was a definite help, but we're still lacking here, and most feel as if it has gotten a lot worse over the past few weeks as dps classes get to higher AA levels.</P> <P>The disease damage component of our single target taunt becomes a significant problem when facing disease immune/resistant mobs. Other tanks do not have mob immunities to a significant portion of the hate generated by their primary taunt.</P> <P>2. Defensive Ability (Combination of Mitigation and HP). </P> <P>Shadowknights are unable to take our physical mitigation to nearly the level which Guardians and Berserkers can - combined with our lesser HP, this is a significant issue against mobs which can do a lot of spike damage (Raids and also instanced zones and tougher group content such as Halls of Fate). This, combined with the aggro difficulties in 1 lead to Shadowknights not being able to fulfill the MT role in these situations nearly as well as the other options. A common complaint is that we have no way to increase our mitigation through AAs, whereas the Warrior subclasses do. This further increases the gap in MTing capability.</P> <P>3. Power Pool. </P> <P>Theoretically, Crusaders were supposed to have a larger power pool in order to compensate for the smaller health pool we get in comparison to the other fighters. In actuality, this doesn't seem to exist. Shadowknights may have the highest power consumption rate in comparison to our power pool size of any class in the game. Some have reported that the dual stat nature of our power pool may be at fault here - at higher (But still not at the stat cap) levels of STR and WIS, adding more does not seem to be increasing the power pool properly. </P> <P>In either case, playing a Shadowknight is a perpetual fight against running out of power. It's common for me to be at 20% power when the rest of the group is at 80% while MTing. This is because we need to make up for our lack of direct taunt aggro with dps, and our dps is extremely power intensive.</P> <P>The two ways to go here which would dramatically help the class are either lower power consumption or a larger power pool. </P> <P>4. Disease Immunity for Disease Using Mobs (Currently a raid issue, but potentially a group play issue with new content)</P> <P>Given the disease mitigation which goes along with the Shadowknight defensive stance, it seems intended that Shadowknights work well as MTs against disease based raid mobs. Unfortunately, a number of these mobs are immune to disease damage, and as we are wholly dependant upon disease based damage to generate aggro, we are excluded from tanking the mobs which seem like the ones most naturally suited to SK MTs. </P> <P>5. Stats</P> <P>Shadowknights are one of very few classes in the game who need every single stat. We're also the only plate user which has a significant need for Int, and unfortunately this shows in the itemization. Even the SK only plate items tend not to include int. This is largely an itemization issue, as much of the plate armor which is available is focused on STR, STA, and WIS.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Ceruline on <span class=date_text>05-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span>

[espmrred]

<P>For me, it's as follows:</P> <P>1. Lack of Snap Aggro</P> <P>2. Lack of Mitigation (sure we can buff other's but what about our own? something lacking from our AA line :smileysad: :smileymad: )</P> <P>3. Mobs that deal disease damage (the ideal ones for us to tank) being immune to disease  *cough* tarinax *cough* ... how are we supposed to tank that when it resists all of our taunts and damage? Maybe if we had some non-disease based taunts/attacks?</P> <P>4-5: Lack of Higher MP Pools (ok, so we lose about 1k HP to warriors, but s'ok cause we get larger power pools, I'm sorry that extra 150 MP doesn't make up for the HP loss) <--- 2 issues</P><p>Message Edited by espmrred on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[mikeyswizz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> espmrred wrote:<BR> <P>3. Mobs that deal disease damage (the ideal ones for us to tank) being immune to disease  *cough* tarinax *cough* ... how are we supposed to tank that when it resists all of our taunts and damage? Maybe if we had some non-disease based taunts/attacks?</P> <P>Message Edited by espmrred on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>This makes sense, A fire dragon that does fire damage sgould be immune to fire. An ice giant who does cold damage is probably immune to cold. And a Disease mob that does disease damage should be immune to disease. You would need to opposite to do damage (IE fire on the cold mob)<BR></P>

[espmrred]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikeyswizz wrote: <P>This makes sense, A fire dragon that does fire damage sgould be immune to fire. An ice giant who does cold damage is probably immune to cold. And a Disease mob that does disease damage should be immune to disease. You would need to opposite to do damage (IE fire on the cold mob)<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>soooo as a disease based tank, what mobs will you be tanking then, and how will your disease resists help you in that fight; and all of your disease based CA's and spells? how will they help? OH, and your disease based taunts, how will they help.</DIV><p>Message Edited by espmrred on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[Dogm]

Yeah it makes sence, but is a huge design flaw.  Your guild  sees a dragon and attacks it,  It does a disease attack to the Guardian.    Your guild says "Hey SKs are good against disease, lets give him a go".   You attack the dragon and immediately tell your guild "Sorry, but I'm useless against this mob as it is disease immune.   My taunts wont hit it because they are based on disease damage.  No way I can hold aggro.  Better just beef up the guardians disease resist",

[mikeyswizz]

<DIV>I agree that it sucks that they are immune to disease yet we are the best tanks for them, but it makes sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, if you were going to tank an SK. They would do lots of disease damage, but be very resistant to disease. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are good against heat, such as a fire dragon, which is probably immune to fire based attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that the mob does lots of disease damage he SHOULD be resistant to disease.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats my point</DIV>

[Dogm]

<P>And as far as my List, I have to agree with Meethos.</P> <P> </P> <P>1: Lack of snap aggro (We can hold aggro fine, but we can't take it when needed to)</P> <P>2: Would expand this to Lack of defensive AAs</P> <P>3: No niche where we can tank (See last post about disease mobs not being tankable by us). Only tank who can have his taunts be made useless by a design change (Our single taunt is the only taunt that does damage, and is made virtually useless on disease immune mobs)</P> <P>4: Larger power pool . This never happened,  we have a 5% HP penalty compared to Warriors, and barely an increase on power if any.  Also to mention with this at 70 the stat cap is about 510, however since we get power from both Wis and Str, we end up with a lower cap.  I have tested this and after about 420 in each, our power stops increasing.  See here for details <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=19478#M19478" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=19478#M19478</A></P> <P>5: Focus on too many stats.  We are a "DPS tank" which is fine, but losing 225 int going into defensive stance (compared to offensive) hurts our aggro controll.  This makes a Fury in as SK MT group a must.  Perhaps our stat buffs should be spread out among other buffs</P><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Dogm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikeyswizz wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree that it sucks that they are immune to disease yet we are the best tanks for them, but it makes sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, if you were going to tank an SK. They would do lots of disease damage, but be very resistant to disease. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are good against heat, such as a fire dragon, which is probably immune to fire based attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that the mob does lots of disease damage he SHOULD be resistant to disease.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats my point</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, and how many Fire attacks does the Guardian have?   The answer is none.   How many Cold attacks does a Berserker have? The answer is none.   How many Poison attacks does a Bruiser have?   Do guardians taunts do fire damage to make up for the lower (compared to other tanks) Threat increase? How bout zerkers, or monks, or bruisers, or even paladins?  The answer to those is nope.  We have the only taunt that does less threat then the others , and makes up for it with damage.</P> <P>And it's not just that our attacks are useless, Our Taunts become useless.     Guardian can still taunt a fire immune mob, Zerker can taunt a cold immune mob etc.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>So yes, while it makes sence that a mob that does disease damage should be resistant to disease, It really cripples SKs and shows a huge design flaw with our class.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thats my point</P><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

[ssythe]

<P>Mine is gonna ramble a bit but here goes:</P> <P>1- Agro issues-This needs to be looked at bad and if it's "working as intended"it needs to be trashed and redone.Some possible improvements maybe thru Damae shield,stance penalty,a innate proc maybe while in defensive?,hate siphon to throw some rough ideas out there...(I'd like a full time pet whos hate it generates counts towards us but that will never happen hehe)</P> <P>2-Direction of the class- Atm fighter classes are generally* suppose to be equal for the most part tanking wise.If this is still the current "vision" then it needs some help.If they are planning on tiering it out then the fighters that arent on top needs to get some other abilities to compensate....abilities that the classes on the top of the hill don't get a equivalent for.(i expect some whining on that 1).I'd like to see some spell that has a short but yet useful duration (and rather long recast as to not be over powered)that maybe makes our lifetaps and what not hit for good chunks of damage that maybe can scale up to difficulty of mob or something.(its a rough idea)</P> <P>3-More "oomph" factor- Would like to see more desireability/usefulness for the shadowknight class** in regards for being desired for raids/guilds.This kinda goes back and ties in with #2 with the direction thing.Maybe they could add more "solid" debuffs to our class that are mostly sk only.Despoil is our only really solid one...str is situational.Could also add mobs that require certain fighter classes to tank them(which im sure is already implemented to some degree) however there neeeds to be a major reason to use that certain class since most of the time the fighter with the highest mit/hp is picked regardless........</P> <P>4-the hp "tradeoff"-the trade off for power really needs to be either reworked or rethought.Firstly the fighter archetype is the most competitive out of them all(this isnt nothing new as this is generally how it is in most MMO's for tanks).Generally speaking it's mit/hp and maybe resists in certain situations that are looked at when picking a tank particularily raid wise*(this again brings us back to number 2).This trade off kinda ensures were riding the pine<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>5-Some spell issues-this is gonna have varying opinions but i think some spells could use some lookin at.Our wards for 1; I'm under the assumption that the casting of them was abused back in the earlier days of eq2 so got nerfed.In its current state if u fizzle once ur gonna fizzle twice then followed by a interupt(if u r tanking) and can be a real hassle to get off, I really cant beleive they went live with this.I think our fd duration could use some upgradeing(if its meant to be a true fd, guess thats the devs call).And while its not a spell combat leadership needs some love 1 attack per min(yes im aware if effects every in group and it doesnt always go off) for 4 AA if u wanna advance the wis line is underpowered.... but thats not only a sk issue its crusader.</P> <P>If u notice alot of stuff can be tied into number 2......</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ssythe on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Ceruline]

<P>It occurs to me that perhaps the format of this might be better done with some degree of seperation between playtypes. </P> <P>Let's tag each concern just so we have on record whether it's a concern which applies to raids, grouping, or soloing (Or some combination thereof).</P> <P>From my experience thus far, I'm assuming the issue with the mob both using and being immune to disease is primarily a raid based one?  (I don't think I've run into a disease immune heroic mob yet in KoS)</P> <P> </P>

[Dogm]

<P>Yes it is raid based right now, but who can say what will come with the new expansion.  We could see a whole zone of mobs that are disease immune, effectively telling SKs to go elsewhere.  It is basically one of the major design flaws with our class.  We deal disease damage, we take disease damage.  Where in general if a mob deals disease damage it is immune/resistant to it also.  </P> <P> </P> <P>While my issues come from the view of a Raiding SK, they really effect all SKs.  Raiders just see these issues first (it is easier for us to cap stats and see lack of power gain etc.)</P><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[espmrred]

<DIV>My issues came from my raiding experience, however they are all, IMO valid concerns raiding and non-raiding SK's alike share.</DIV>

[ssythe]

Have a strong feeling agro gonna be #1 on a lot of future posts hehe

[Mmaster]

Snap aggro would be nice, but I like how our taunts work on mem wipe mobs. I agree with the power pool issue, officially we are suppose to have a greater power resevoir compared to other fighters, and it just isnt there, where me as an Iksar, that focuses souly on mitigation because there is a gap between warriors and crusaders mitigation due to AA's, I am left with a thousand less hitpoints on average. I dont have aggro problems in general, and dont think it is as big of issue as our crappy tanking AA's, HP/Power and lame disease immune mobs that cripple classes like us and warlocks. <div></div>

[Tiberuis]

<P>1) Snap aggro is a problem.  (But don't mess with the taunt-over-time, it's very useful with the mem-wipe mobs).</P> <P>2) Disease resistant mobs.  Nothing wrong with the SK here, it's a game/mob design issue.  It really is silly that the Disease mobs we are best suited to tank are immune to most of our offensive spells.  </P> <P>3) Power pool is too low.  If we are a step down from Warriors in HP and MIT, give us the juice to dish out the spells...</P> <P>4) We have too much useful utility.  Evac is awesome.  Feign Death is awesome.  Intercede has saved more than one Guardian's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and thus the raid from wiping.  Despoil, and our Disease MIT de-buff taunt are both awesome.  Self healing massive HP from lifetaps, from a single power pool, is awesome.  Our 6K + Nuke is awesome.  Soloing mobs easier than most classes is awesome.  PVP is...well...you know the old saying...Give Blood...Fight an SK...</P> <P>Sigh, it's hard to be humble...</P> <P>5) OK, we are just too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sexy.  The T7 relic and fabled SK armour and weapon drops look unbelievable on my fat ogre [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  It's OK, I know all you peeps are drooling when I ride up on my Nightmare.  We just look too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cool.  Somebody stop me!  </P> <P>lol</P> <P>Torran Deathrite</P> <P>70 SK</P> <P>Dirty Dozen</P> <P>Oasis Server</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Dogm]

<P>I hope your number 4 is sarcastic.</P> <P> </P> <P>Evac = pointless in raids, and interrupted while tanking.</P> <P>FD = Only good for aggro controll in exp groups, or FDing your guild's Assassin on raids for kicks.</P> <P>Intercede = usefull, but doesnt take mitigation into account  (can intercede a hit that would normally hit for 3k and get nailed for 12k) </P> <P>Despoil = Brigands do it better (Yes theirs is single target, but how often on a raid are you meleeing more then one mob at a time)   (And yes certain classes have AE auto attack Swashy/Zerker, but the additional debuff is minor because they aren't AE'ing every hit, so it is a waste of power most of the time to cast imo)</P><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:18 PM</span>

[Mmaster]

<blockquote><hr>Dogmae wrote:<div></div> <p>Despoil = Brigands do it better (Yes theirs is single target, but how often on a raid are you meleeing more then one mob at a time)</p><hr></blockquote> Scouts do a lot, especially Swashbucklers.<div></div>

[Huevos]

I agree with every point raised so far. I want to put further emphasis on: better defensive capabilities, better aggro control. The fact is that DPS classes have been advancing a lot faster than fighter classes have been. Therefore, the problem is shared by all fighters, but is most noticable by the Crusaders, who lack the larger defensive/aggro capabilities of the Warriors. <div></div>

[Cichlasoma]

<DIV>I would have to agree with most of the points raised, but my order of importance would be:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Aggro(many different ways for this to be resolved)</LI> <LI>Too many stats to focus on.(Especially since we need int to help with aggro, and then that sacrifices my power pool because str lowers)</LI> <LI>I think we have either a low mana pool or a high mana consumption issue</LI> <LI>lack of mit</LI> <LI>lack of HP</LI></OL> <P>The top 3 are my only true issues, but had to add 2 more. What the hell maybe we will get them someday.</P><p>Message Edited by Cichlasoma on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 PM</span>

[Mmaster]

I dont have a problem with mit, I'd be at 5280 solo with claymore items, but I am lazy. Mmm and with those darkbough pauldrons I'd be at 5450. HP is the true problem I have with our class, but we do heal ourselves quite a bit.<div></div>

[Ne]

<DIV>From a raid perspective:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Aggro control. Nothing much needed but I dont think our passive ability (nefarious caress) quite cuts it. Dunno if it adds too little aggro / hit taken, or if it simply doesnt proc when a ward soaks up the hit. Snap aggro isnt too bad imo, we have both rescue and PT. Reducing the reuse timer on PT would do us good. We dont do abusive dps with PT. The other main issue is the complete lack of <EM>true</EM> ae taunt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) HP. The HP trade-off gives us what in return?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Base mitigation is no problem, but our Pledge of Armament that can only be cast on others really locks us up as non-tanks. The other fighter classes have spells that help themselves (as well as group), giving them a big advantage as MTs compared to crusaders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) The STA-aa ultimate is broken. It would help us tanking! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats it really. The whole point is that we lack in these areas but we dont get anything in exchange. Compare to zerkers for example. They have better mitigation (30s selfbuffs), much better aggro, AND do more DPS. What's in it for us?</DIV>

[SinIsLaw]

1-3) Aggro design: If I get the inital aggro, the yes i'm usally able to keep it,  the "snap" aggro as mentioned above is just none existant for SKs imho!!   I have posted it before, I don't really like our single target taunt, TOT + Disease Based dmg. I rather would see a higher  TOT without the dmg! AFAIK SKs are the only class in game who have a "combo" single target taunt. The flaw (imho) with the caress line ... we need to get hit to generate more hate! Ok so I read it low avoidance | high mitigation and or med avoidance | high hp ... unfortunately this ain't the case. Would love to see that if we throw in the caress we like increase mitigation for reduced avoidance maybe, or that any swing at us = hate increase (may overpower us). 4)  INT plate gear usually if u see Pally/SK or Inq/Sk you see a dominance in the +wis, it is very hard to find some decent +int gear 5) a lot of small issues here and there imho call it "some special love form soe to us" -> have a mob which requires a SK to tank it (or be preffered, so don't make em Disease based and then immune to it) -> put evac on the same time then for all other classes (15min) -> let us stack the tainted Essance to 99 like other classes - or better put em in the arrow slot. -> fix all the T7 Symbols that they are finally all range and offhand -> FD with approve window (would take the fun off, but u can cast it through a mob and don't run into the risk of target change, FDing the wrong person || or need of having several /target /useability macros for the aggro heads in a raid) then again most may disagree, or put their priorities differently ... <div></div>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>I just updated the top post with an initial list.  Feedback would be great - I'm going to keep modifying it for a few days before sending it off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks a lot for the issue lists, all!</DIV>

[Gungo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>-> FD with approve window (would take the fun off, but u can cast it through a mob and don't run into the risk of target change, FDing the wrong person || or need of having several /target /useability macros for the aggro heads in a raid<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um wouldnt putting in an approve window destroy the point of this ability. Imho its ment to save people from death. But if you put an approve window most classes who got agro and neeed the fake death would be dead by the time they clicked accept.

[Kelkirra]

I completely agree with that. =/

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>-> FD with approve window (would take the fun off, but u can cast it through a mob and don't run into the risk of target change, FDing the wrong person || or need of having several /target /useability macros for the aggro heads in a raid<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um wouldnt putting in an approve window destroy the point of this ability. Imho its ment to save people from death. But if you put an approve window most classes who got agro and neeed the fake death would be dead by the time they clicked accept.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Those who group with SK's regularly learn fast to make use of the X key.  *nods*<BR>

[mikeyswizz]

<DIV>yea, but they you wouldnt be able to FD random friends on raids nstuff. What fun is that?  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikeyswizz wrote:<BR> <DIV>yea, but they you wouldnt be able to FD random friends on raids nstuff. What fun is that?  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ah ...true.  X key?  Did I say X key?  I meant to say ALT-F4...yeah...that's it! :smileywink:</P>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Ok, sry it's taking so long to post here as I have been working and it can be difficult to post at work. Here we go:</P> <P>1) As everyone else has agreed thus far, hate gain is our primary concern. We have the lowest threat lvls out of the tanking classes and must attempt to use DPS for agro control. The problem comes in because of the major transition between our offensive and defensive stances. If we want a prayer to hold agro, we have to go offensive and still pray but if we enter a tougher zone, we have to go defensive which drastically decreases our DPS thus our agro control. Seems kinda screwy to me.</P> <P>2) Lack of defination as a class. We lack so much to have a true role in raid situations and even group situations at times. If there is a different tank in the group, we can hang it up on being MT if that's what we like to do. Raids, please, we lack in so many areas as a MT that it's not funny. What other roles are we supposed to play? Our DPS is sub-par with other DPSing classes, including brawlers, our utility is almost NIL if there is a pally in the raid and well. . . . . .there really isn't much else that we can do.  We can solo well, if the person playing knows the class that is.</P> <P>3) Our key ability was taken away from us not to long back. The crusader class was considered the class that attacked or defended from horseback riding into battle fearlessly. Ok, this is wonderful for roleplaying but in the game mechanics now we're the class that rides right up to combat, stops to cast a spell and hope we don't get powned, then rides through combat. When SoE took our ability to run and cast away from us, it literaly took the RPing aspect out of the class as well as any minor advantage over the other tanking classes. They have arrows and throwing weapons with attacks that can not be interrupted. Well, we can be interrupted, can't run and cast any longer and do not have the ranged attacks with weapons that other fighter classes do. Good job SoE.</P> <P>4) Our power consumption rate vs. other fighters. The crusader class was supposed to have the highest mana pool of the fighters with the lowest HP pool I don't think that a 1K difference in HP is balanced with a 150 mana pool difference considering the amount of power that it requires per spells. Our DPS is supposed to be used to hold agro. We use mana for spells. We have to use more spells and CA than any of the other fighter classes (excluding pallies as they are crusaders as well <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and ergo would need more power, ESPECIALLY with the drastic difference in HP that exists between the other classes.</P> <P>5) The requirement of all stats to become truly effective in any role we would decide to attempt. Come on SoE, 5 stats vs. 2-3? Balanced eh?</P> <P>6) (my own personal gripe) THEY DIDN'T OFFER FREE MUFFINS WITH THE EXPANSIONS <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Yeah, pretty much a repeat of what other SK's have posted, but these are the truths of our inbalance vs. other fighters. The disparity between SK's and pallies is even warped. Pallies can throw amends on a DPS class and stand there to hold agro. Much less compare us to a warrior on agro management. I understand that there have to be differences between the classes, but to allow this many issues to go unresolved is redicilous. If you're going to promise something to us (i.e. the power pool vs. HP pool) then deliver. Do you believe that a restuaraunt would maintain business if they delivered sub-par food to all of their customers? O_o</P>

[Atiknig]

For power the end item from Infiltrating the sanctum quest is kinda helpful. Draws 210 power from a mob and gives you 200 and recast is 5 min.. helps in bad situations along with mana stone. I almost feel uber when fighting 4 3up easy mobs and i use ward then manastone so i dont loose life and i keep getting healed off the mobs then when wards not up just use ae lifetap and heal with crit spells to full life.. then have ward up again and almost never loose life then when im low again i use the idol to drain power for more heals lol.<p>Message Edited by Atiknight on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 PM</span>

[Arlon]

Very good post. I agree with all 5 issues. ... just waiting for a comment from the devs <span>:smileytongue:</span> <span></span> <div></div>

[Grimm79]

I've stopped using the SK single taunt ages ago.. the single target taunt you can buy in splitpaw is far more usefull. But it's silly that one would have to resort to that.

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimm79 wrote:<BR> I've stopped using the SK single taunt ages ago.. the single target taunt you can buy in splitpaw is far more usefull. But it's silly that one would have to resort to that.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's funny, considering the splitpaw version is for all intents and purposes App IV, and will never be anything else.  I've compared the two, and I prefer Insidious Promise because it gives me the best hate gain consistently.  Of course, the fact that I have it at Master I might also be a factor.

[Ceruline]

<DIV>Well, since nobody seems to have any serious disagreements with the top 5 consolidated in the top level post, I'm going to go ahead and try to get them to the Devs by non-board channels.  May take a few days until I can catch a Dev on Test who's willing to do some mail forwarding, but I'll do my best to get it there!</DIV>

[G3IST]

1) Agro Issues: Other tanks jsut have it so much easier on this one than we do.  I know we can control agro and keep it but getting it is the hard part and can be the thing that gets your group killed. 2) Mana: I have seen no indication that our mana pool is in anyway larger than all other fighters, or atleast large enough to make up for the fact that our HP is so much smaller. 3) Stat Dependance:  I cannot think of any other class that relys on every stat as much as we do.  We need str for melee dmg and pwr, Wis for resists and pwr, Int for dmg so we can keep agro, Sta to make up for our small HP, Agi however seems to be the elast important to me I know it gives avoidance but for one of our agro abilities we have to be hit for it to go off so in a way agi could hurt us. 4) Lack of a Role: I solo, group, and raid, it seems like that we are best a soloing, a little worse in groups and then the least effective in raids.  I know we have a wide range of capabilities but for each one of them there is a class that can do them much better than us, there is really no reason to have an SK in a raid or group. 5) Defensive/Offensive Capabilities:  We are supposed to be dps tanks and our dmg is higher than some tanks which is pretty much just guardians and paladins.  So you would think that we would then be the 3rd lease defensive tanks since berserkers, monks, and bruisers can do more damage than we can without really trying.  However when it comes to chosing a MT when do you see a SK being picked over a guardian, pally, or zerker when each has about equal gear, spell quality and tanking skill.  I may be wrong about this but we are the only tank class that I know of that really only has one defensive buff which is our defensive stance.  To me it just doesnt seem like we are getting anything for what we have lost compared to other tanks Another thing to add is about the usefulness of our spells and CAs, FD for one is jsut about an entertainment spell which I do use sometimes to avoid death buts its recast is 5mins and it only lasts for 20 secs and usually ends up being useless.  Evac is another problem when ever Im tanking or soloing and need to use it I will either get interupted or it will fizzle, and why is the recast 30mins when every other evac is only 15mins, to me the rez that pallys get is much more useful than our evac.  But I think if I had to say what the largest problem with our class is that we dont have any edge over any of the other tanks, our HP and MP are both low, our dmg isnt the lowest but its definatly not high enough to make up for the defensive loses that we have, we just dont have enough of one thing we're spread out way to much.

[Nostarn]

<DIV>The only thing I wanted to add were to the comments about Despoil.  I use it every time it's up.  You might think it doesn't do much, but every debuff helps on a raid.  You also have to keep in mind, a Brigand's debuff doesn't cover the same as ours does.  The group aspect to ours doesn't necesarily mean all the damage is done AE physical, but when you fight a group of mobs, you kill one, go to the next, go to the next, and the debuff is already set.  It's a big help IMO.  If I could add to our utility on a raid, I would make our str tap a group debuff as well as our wisdom debuff.  I think that'd be a good addition to our skills.  </DIV>

[Margen]

<P>I agree with the list, seems to cover the main issues I see with a SK's, specially no clearly defined role in raids.  </P> <P>Basicly all we do is a single debuff (have mine at master 1) and some dps.  While we can pump out good dps if put in the correct group (INT/STR buffs, coercer or dirge in group etc.) its not like we are threating well played true dps classes.</P> <P>As for raid tanking, can anyone give a single logical reason why you would choose a SK tank over the other plate tanks?  I really can't think of one (trust me I would like to come up with one), disease based mobs .... nope they are immune to our attacks and taunts.  Being last in Mitigation/Hp's and aggro basicly says don't even ask.</P> <P>The wisdom line (which effects pallys also), seems to be the frosting on the cake, I don't know about anyone else but I would love 300plus extra mitigation, mind you my mitagtion doesn't suck (think self buffed I stand at like 4666 with 49.3 pct avoidance, in defensive gear), but we are behind the warrior classes (every warrior I know picks that line for the mitigation, as would I) so that increases the difference in tanking ability.</P> <P>Part of the problem is that our dps is INT based.  First on a raid you have to talior your gear to be int/str for dps (since we rarly tank), so if we have to step into the fight for emergancy tanking we get squished.  If we are tanking, we switch to gear that in most cases has almost zero int, lose our int buff and our dps goes through the floor, thus our aggro takes a major hit.</P> <P>The problem is that Tanks are the most competive classes for raid spots and many guilds won't touch SK's for raiding because they don't see situations where its not better to use a Guardian or beserker or even a Pally vs our class.  It puts the SK community in a bind in the raiding enviroment and to a lesser extent grouping.</P> <P>Just how I see it, feel free to disagree.</P>

[Zoradan]

<P>Just to toss my 2 cp in:</P> <P> </P> <P>1) Hate</P> <P>2) hate</P> <P>3) hate</P> <P>4) hate</P> <P>5) FD timer.... or Hate close 5th.</P> <P> </P> <P>Every thing is candy after hate gain. Simply put ours sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Every thing the same, Mit, HP, power pool, Power consumption, DPS every thing, I would be happy as a cat in the sun with more hate, I'll be honest; I to my bone think SK's should be the best hate makers in the game.</P>

[Telka]

<DIV>If were a dot aggro I think like most dots we should end up with the most hate over time then in 1 straight shot like the other tanks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see us drop wis for our mana pool and give it to int to be more like eq1 tanks sense we no longer share a crusader class with paladin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think just these 2 would go along way to putting us back on par with others</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id like to see a more defined role in raids but ill settle for better taunts and one less stat to worry about</DIV>

[rabid.pooh]

So.... hate, that's an intresting one, our single target hate is harder to maintain without spending more mana on average then other classes.  However let us not kid ourselves, look at a guardian who's MT'n in a raid and you'll see he's near tapped out at the end of the fight too.  Even tanking a group, you'll see whoever is taunting has less mana when the fight is over.Now we have, as far as I've seen the best out of encounter hate bar none, infact a really wierd thing happens, the more encounters you have, the easier it is to maintain the hate on everything your fighting.  This isn't our number 1 issue, it's more like 5th, there's a balance here.  This immunity to our taunts in death toll tho has to go. Power pool, uhm I have to disagree here sorry, it's larger.  Tonight I was tanking an epic x 2, and with my tank group I got up to about 1.2k more mana then the main tank for our raids does(same group makeup), and he's way more decked out then I am.  (I consider my gear of average raid level right now). our number 1 issue:  Deffensive ability.  Several issues here, where there deffinately isn't a give and take.- Mitigation, warriors with mitigation based spells and the wisdom aa, we just can't compete with at all when it comes to raid mobs.  A guard/zerker will always be choosen over us if they're of equivilent gear (of course the person behind the keyboard can factor in here too, but most raid level players are good).  Our only balance is in group fighting, as we can make up for this with our taps.  And I will take the pepsi challenge against any tank out there when it comes to group tank, we are a very good group tank.- avoidance - crusader avoidance is the lowest, the fact we concentrate on 5 different stats and have no extra avoidance type buffage besides our stances is sad.- Hit points - lowest HPs, the rational for this is we have taps/healing, that doesn't wash our heals don't scale with damage like miti does.  Less miti + same heal = more damage being taken.- No emergency skills save our STA AA line top.  We have nothing, if we're going down we're going down, no tower of stone, no extra 30 sec mitigation buff.  Nothing (okay if we're lucky and there's 8 mobs we can tap viens for an almost complete heal).- Our STA AA god mode ability, I'll take the warrior one thanks, our 15 minute recast vs their 10 minute recast, half our health damage prevention vs their full parry, our 10 secs or 30 hits, vs their just 10 secs.  Sure we can suck up an AOE here, but that 15 min vs 10 min, and to limit our hits on top of it?As far as defensive role there isn't a balance at all, we're dominated bar none WORK on this SOE, find a better balance here.  You'll know when you find a balance, because other classes will start crying out, neft the SK <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and we all know up to this point, no one has ever called to nerf the SK.Another thing on hate, the we build up hate during the fight, that's a crock, we can loose it at any time.  ps, forgive grammar/spelling errors, it's 1:45 am ....<div></div>

[Giral]

<DIV>i agree with everything Rabid.pooh said , </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Tank's we Rock , i'm chosen to MT overall except equal geared/skilled guardian's and then i contribute more by going Dp's and MA'ing then the guard can </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group mob's we Hold outstanding Agro , single target Mob's we do not hold the best but in a skilled group you should almost never lose it , Pick up group's? well enough said if you aren't Very vocal and Lead and command the group you will have problems</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raiding , yeah we lack the tool's to be a Near equal choice for Raid tank </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.s, Feign death is IMO an invaluable tool for Agro , i use it First  befor Rescue OR HT and 98 % of the time get agro back Immediatly , if not then Rescue </DIV>

[ArmadaXeenelk]

<div></div>here goes my reponse.... I won't comment on Raids cause I haven't done any since level 50(pre expansion)<b>Taunts and Hate</b>:  I notice most of the responses are about other classes, i'm not really sure its a valid argument to say "He taunts better then me so I need to taunt better". In groups(HoT and other difficult places) I haven't noticed any "problems" with agro.  Ofcourse some classes will and can take agro but I don't feel like my class is unfairly balanced against regaining or maintaining agro...<b>Defense: </b>The problem seems to be as someone in the paladin boards pointed out that our Defense stance is lacking an avoidance (Warriors and Monks get parry and some other component) if this is intended then fine I don't see a problem the way we're tanking atm anyways, but if it is an oversight and will solve some of the problems then I say it should be fixed.  The spike damage in HoT and other zones seems to be just as bad for every class i've gone to the zone with so I don't really see a problem there. BUT i've heard it mentioned on other boards this was done because of the crowd control most groups have that trivialize encounters, this is going to change as they have given crowd control exclusively to enchanters (so this problem is being fixed another route and is not JUST a SK problem).<b>Power Pools</b>: I don't see a problem with power pools, they addresse this issue a long time ago so maybe i'm just still happy compared to previous versions of the SK. but I don't have any power pool problems, I'd recommend buying some power potions from your local Alchemist <grin> but seriously, I don't consider this a problem AT ALL.<b>Disease Immunity</b>: The issue of raid mobs having disease immunity and our primary damage being disease based was discussed and compared to other MTs, I agree that it seems weird but it IS the way other MTs deal with in raids (this was discussed in another thread at length).  ALTHOUGH I do think it is worth considering that our percieved(can anyone back it up?)  DMG(mostly from our disease spells) is our primary means of HATE gain and making a RAID Mob resistant to that drastically hurts our hate gain abilities in a raid environment?(not sure about this just an idea).<b>Stats</b>: I see our USE (read: NOT dependancy) on all the stats as a good thing, it means that with armor that adds to odd stats we will benefit from as apposed to other classes that see very little if any gain from odd stats.  The dependancy issue is tied into the idea that without our dmg we're not holding agro.SO in closing I think the overall issue is hate gain and (I'm not sure on this one) that our dmg output should not be our main means to control hate... is that right?honestly I don't have any issues with my Shadowknight besides some cosmestic.On mounts I get two instances of particle effects for my hand of luclin and firework abilities. *one at my hand and one under my horse.<div></div>

[Diern]

All my issues have been expressed in some way or another, it just forcibly reminds me that sony looked at all the flaws of the Shadowknight class in EQ1 and recreated them for the sequel, adding a couple more for good measure along the way

[plantb]

<P>Disagree with rabid about group mob hate, raid or in a group. You can taunt as much as you like, but as soon as a Zerker does open wounds+rampage+all the other CAs, your hate is gone.</P> <P>On raids our Zerker MT says "hold on a sec" does a full spread of his dmge and taunts CAs "Ok you can go all out now, hate has beeen locked down" and at the end of the fight hes got 700-800dps to his name.</P> <P>However Rabid, I agree with everything else you say, especially our Tsunami being on a 15min recast and the warriors on a 10min recast.  Fix this SOE</P> <P>Plant</P>

[ssythe]

So just curious is there actually a dev/gm on test that actually interacts/listens to peoples input? Also when this list gets sent in is this thread gonna be used as reference so they can see other people co-signed on it? not like it probably matters

[Ceruline]

We have QAs on Test who are on consistantly.  We also have devs and the like who will show up for specific content test - what I'm trying to do is see if one of the QAs will forward this to the appropriate dev.  No idea if we'll get any response on it though.

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> espmrred wrote:<BR> <P>For me, it's as follows:</P> <P>1. Lack of Snap Aggro</P> <P>2. Lack of Mitigation (sure we can buff other's but what about our own? something lacking from our AA line :smileysad: :smileymad: )</P> <P>3. Mobs that deal disease damage (the ideal ones for us to tank) being immune to disease  *cough* tarinax *cough* ... how are we supposed to tank that when it resists all of our taunts and damage? Maybe if we had some non-disease based taunts/attacks?</P> <P>4-5: Lack of Higher MP Pools (ok, so we lose about 1k HP to warriors, but s'ok cause we get larger power pools, I'm sorry that extra 150 MP doesn't make up for the HP loss) <--- 2 issues</P> <P>Message Edited by espmrred on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so let me get this straight u can ward yerself steal life fd evac have all same importnat def buffs as a warrior since update 13 and now you want our aa line to? wow... sigh.. why didnt all you jsut roll a warrior!</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> espmrred wrote:<BR> <P>For me, it's as follows:</P> <P>1. Lack of Snap Aggro</P> <P>2. Lack of Mitigation (sure we can buff other's but what about our own? something lacking from our AA line :smileysad: :smileymad: )</P> <P>3. Mobs that deal disease damage (the ideal ones for us to tank) being immune to disease  *cough* tarinax *cough* ... how are we supposed to tank that when it resists all of our taunts and damage? Maybe if we had some non-disease based taunts/attacks?</P> <P>4-5: Lack of Higher MP Pools (ok, so we lose about 1k HP to warriors, but s'ok cause we get larger power pools, I'm sorry that extra 150 MP doesn't make up for the HP loss) <--- 2 issues</P> <P>Message Edited by espmrred on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>your health pools are lower due to guards focuing on stamina and also racial traits in alot of instances... in addition guards have a sta and life buff... it has nothing to do with inate helth</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arlon wrote:<BR>Very good post. I agree with all 5 issues. <BR>... just waiting for a comment from the devs <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ig you had all those 5 issues fixed you would be a guard that does more dmg and can heal and has a ton of group utility not to mention awesome debuffs... </P> <P>guards dont have any of that and now are just a generic fighter.. when will all thse other fighters just let us have a certain edge and leave it at that... we give up alot for our 594 life buff</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<P>ToS sucks.. it eats up the shield so fast with these long instances it is not usbale due to the fact I need a shield to tank</P> <P> </P>

[Kelkirra]

<P>whewt, a guardian coming to our boards to start flaming. </P> <P>Ok bud, obviously you don't know the true dispariaty that lies between the tanking classes so please, but out. These are issues that we have with our class that are REAL issues wether you would like to believe it or not. Facts are shown, and have been shown. There is a major difference between the amount of health and power between the classes. I would take the lack of health if SoE gave us the actual amount of power that they promised us. A 1K HP to 150 mana pool difference is not balanced.</P> <P>Have you ever fought side by side with a SK? Have you ever played a SK? Have you studied the class itself to the point that you UNDERSTAND the issues that we have delt with and continue to deal with? Do you know what it's like to have every DPS class peel agro off of you everytime you pull a mob? Look man, not trying to stir up [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] here, but you've come here pretty much telling us that we don't have problems. Take a look at your own boards, every fighter has a concern or 2 with their class and we have probably more concerns than you truly have.</P> <P>If you are going to offer something constructive, then by all means post away, if not, then leave.</P>

[Xanoth]

<div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> <p>ToS sucks.. it eats up the shield so fast with these long instances it is not usbale due to the fact I need a shield to tank</p> <hr></blockquote>Most guardians ive known that MT on raids have about 10 tower shields purely so they wont run out if they need to use ToSI agree with most of the 5 issues lsited in by the OP, mainly snap agro though.</div>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> espmrred wrote:<BR> <P>For me, it's as follows:</P> <P>1. Lack of Snap Aggro</P> <P>2. Lack of Mitigation (sure we can buff other's but what about our own? something lacking from our AA line :smileysad: :smileymad: )</P> <P>3. Mobs that deal disease damage (the ideal ones for us to tank) being immune to disease  *cough* tarinax *cough* ... how are we supposed to tank that when it resists all of our taunts and damage? Maybe if we had some non-disease based taunts/attacks?</P> <P>4-5: Lack of Higher MP Pools (ok, so we lose about 1k HP to warriors, but s'ok cause we get larger power pools, I'm sorry that extra 150 MP doesn't make up for the HP loss) <--- 2 issues</P> <P>Message Edited by espmrred on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so let me get this straight u can ward yerself steal life fd evac have all same importnat def buffs as a warrior since update 13 and now you want our aa line to? wow... sigh.. why didnt all you jsut roll a warrior!</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Boy you havn't a clue bud, our best lifetap doesn't equal the difference in hps between warriors and us, </P> <P>Our evac makes not difference in tanking, its a freaking travel spell basicly (which we share with 8 other classes).  </P> <P>Wards, not a true ward by the way, its a reactive lifetap it heals us for something like 200ish each hit depending on the quailty, yeah makes a big difference when mob is hitting you for 5k.  Plus have you tried casting a 2 second spell while a mob is smacking you, not even going into the fact it feaking fizzels half the time.</P> <P>You get 300 more mitigation vs us from a passive AA vs us that can get somehting like 60 hp's regen EVERY SIX SECONDS, meaning yours is very useful for fighters primary job and ours is totally garbage.</P> <P>You guardians won't be happy till you are the only tank left in the game .... what a loser.</P> <P>A village is looking for you.</P> <P> </P>

[Kelkirra]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lmfao

[ssythe]

whatever this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - head is smokin i want some must be good stuff

[Kelkirra]

You and me both. Remember my friend, puff puff pass. =)

[rabid.pooh]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>ig you had all those 5 issues fixed you would be a guard that does more dmg and can heal and has a ton of group utility not to mention awesome debuffs... </P> <P>guards dont have any of that and now are just a generic fighter.. when will all thse other fighters just let us have a certain edge and leave it at that... we give up alot for our 594 life buff</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I happen to agree with JNewby here, if all the issues were addressed we would be on the other side of unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of the issues need to be addressed, I can handle the lowest HPs, I can handle lowest mitigation, I can handle the lowest avoidance, I can handle the worst agro control.  I can handle it, but is it fair?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance implies a balance is actually achieved somehow.  A warrior being better at every tank stat/ability but has the inability to solo what a monk/sk/zerker does, doesn't mean your balanced, there's tons of classes that solo far worse.  You also have to compare youself to equally equiped classes.  I couldn't solo the nest up to the last mob where as Wabbit could, however as my aa's topped out and my raid gear got closer to his, I could solo the nest up to the last mob as he did.  I'm sure there's more 70th level SKs that can't finish the nest to the last boss, then those who can solo it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And JNewby don't kid yourself, guards have thier utility too, and with the next live update you will see some outstanding issues get fixed.  Or better yet, you can have our mitigation buff and you can be the miti buff bot :p.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest issue for me is deffensive capability I outlined earlier in this thread, if that is brought up, not even to the level of the guardian, but brought up never the less, that will make this class more usefull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And frankly this class should have the best agro in the game simply by the fact we are shadow knights, that is a class defining feature for this class.  Masters of hate, not mitigation buff bots.<BR></DIV>

[rabid.pooh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <P>Disagree with rabid about group mob hate, raid or in a group. You can taunt as much as you like, but as soon as a Zerker does open wounds+rampage+all the other CAs, your hate is gone.</P> <P>On raids our Zerker MT says "hold on a sec" does a full spread of his dmge and taunts CAs "Ok you can go all out now, hate has beeen locked down" and at the end of the fight hes got 700-800dps to his name.</P> <P>However Rabid, I agree with everything else you say, especially our Tsunami being on a 15min recast and the warriors on a 10min recast.  Fix this SOE</P> <P>Plant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If your taunting all you like then you will loose agro, like the zerker use your other abilities.</P> <P>Get your int up as much as you can, (raiding don't sacrifice miti, group mobs sacrifice that miti).  And I hope your not one of the people that preach on how much death march sucks, that's a huge agro machine (when a mob agros someone in your group cast it to test it, the mob will bounce right on you).  If someone grabs some agro, drop a tap viens and get it right back.  I'm talking fighting multiple groups here btw, that's where our hate is stronger.</P> <P>Bezerkers in deffensive stance have a lot of the same hate problems we do.</P> <P> </P>

[Dogm]

<DIV>First, I don't care about solo or grouping, the points I make are about raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers in defensive stance have nowhere near the aggro problems we do.  The loss of 225 int for us going to defensive is a huge hit, and unless you make that up with a fury we will be hurt. All a zerker loses is some +crush/slash/pierce, and unless you're fighting Tarinax it doesn't matter much.  They have a reactive taunt (I think it is 50% for 500threat), so on multi encounters they can hold aggro with less effort then us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem for most of us, isn't that we can't hold aggro (I can hold it just fine on Single targets, groups, and multi groups if people aren't going ae crazy).  But the problem is that we can't take aggro when we need to.   In a raid  if the MT dies, how many more people die before we can take aggro to tank the mobs. The only tools we have to use in that situation is  :  Rescue (Doesn't always take you to top of threat list), and HT (can take aggro if it crits but nothing guaranteed).    FD is useless in that situation because you weren't number 2 on the hate list, and you only saved Assassin 1, so the mobs could kill Assassin 2.  </DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>whewt, a guardian coming to our boards to start flaming. </P> <P>Ok bud, obviously you don't know the true dispariaty that lies between the tanking classes so please, but out. These are issues that we have with our class that are REAL issues wether you would like to believe it or not. Facts are shown, and have been shown. There is a major difference between the amount of health and power between the classes. I would take the lack of health if SoE gave us the actual amount of power that they promised us. A 1K HP to 150 mana pool difference is not balanced.</P> <P>Have you ever fought side by side with a SK? Have you ever played a SK? Have you studied the class itself to the point that you UNDERSTAND the issues that we have delt with and continue to deal with? Do you know what it's like to have every DPS class peel agro off of you everytime you pull a mob? Look man, not trying to stir up [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] here, but you've come here pretty much telling us that we don't have problems. Take a look at your own boards, every fighter has a concern or 2 with their class and we have probably more concerns than you truly have.</P> <P>If you are going to offer something constructive, then by all means post away, if not, then leave.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hate generation I agree with.. but then you are saying you want same life mit and avoidance of a warrior... that is what warriors do... we dont have any useful skills... and like I said the life difference has to do with our buffs guards buff life... we buff defense also which helps are avoidance..  I am not flaming I am stating simply that if you had all the stuff we had.. plus all the awesome abilties of a sk... what woul be the point of a guard?  I agree every tank should be able to hold agro but heck my guard cant hold aggro all the time... cause SOE pumped up the dps so hard.

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanoth wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <P>ToS sucks.. it eats up the shield so fast with these long instances it is not usbale due to the fact I need a shield to tank</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Most guardians ive known that MT on raids have about 10 tower shields purely so they wont run out if they need to use ToS<BR><BR>I agree with most of the 5 issues lsited in by the OP, mainly snap agro though.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ok I can agree to that you can switch shields out on the fly.. but that takes awhile and if ur not taunting constantly agro goes bye bye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> espmrred wrote:<BR> <P>For me, it's as follows:</P> <P>1. Lack of Snap Aggro</P> <P>2. Lack of Mitigation (sure we can buff other's but what about our own? something lacking from our AA line :smileysad: :smileymad: )</P> <P>3. Mobs that deal disease damage (the ideal ones for us to tank) being immune to disease  *cough* tarinax *cough* ... how are we supposed to tank that when it resists all of our taunts and damage? Maybe if we had some non-disease based taunts/attacks?</P> <P>4-5: Lack of Higher MP Pools (ok, so we lose about 1k HP to warriors, but s'ok cause we get larger power pools, I'm sorry that extra 150 MP doesn't make up for the HP loss) <--- 2 issues</P> <P>Message Edited by espmrred on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>so let me get this straight u can ward yerself steal life fd evac have all same importnat def buffs as a warrior since update 13 and now you want our aa line to? wow... sigh.. why didnt all you jsut roll a warrior!</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Boy you havn't a clue bud, our best lifetap doesn't equal the difference in hps between warriors and us, </P> <P>Our evac makes not difference in tanking, its a freaking travel spell basicly (which we share with 8 other classes).  </P> <P>Wards, not a true ward by the way, its a reactive lifetap it heals us for something like 200ish each hit depending on the quailty, yeah makes a big difference when mob is hitting you for 5k.  Plus have you tried casting a 2 second spell while a mob is smacking you, not even going into the fact it feaking fizzels half the time.</P> <P>You get 300 more mitigation vs us from a passive AA vs us that can get somehting like 60 hp's regen EVERY SIX SECONDS, meaning yours is very useful for fighters primary job and ours is totally garbage.</P> <P>You guardians won't be happy till you are the only tank left in the game .... what a loser.</P> <P>A village is looking for you.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok but again that is what we have you have fd wards dps evac and can tank..</P> <P>OUR buffs are life buffs we buff self for about 900 that is our skills our buffs not cause we start out with more life.. and the mit is another advantge we just got.. I mean seriously the hate I understand but the life and mit.. you woudl just then be a guard with all yer other abliities you have,... what good would it be being a guard?</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rabid.pooh wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>ig you had all those 5 issues fixed you would be a guard that does more dmg and can heal and has a ton of group utility not to mention awesome debuffs... </P> <P>guards dont have any of that and now are just a generic fighter.. when will all thse other fighters just let us have a certain edge and leave it at that... we give up alot for our 594 life buff</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I happen to agree with JNewby here, if all the issues were addressed we would be on the other side of unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of the issues need to be addressed, I can handle the lowest HPs, I can handle lowest mitigation, I can handle the lowest avoidance, I can handle the worst agro control.  I can handle it, but is it fair?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance implies a balance is actually achieved somehow.  A warrior being better at every tank stat/ability but has the inability to solo what a monk/sk/zerker does, doesn't mean your balanced, there's tons of classes that solo far worse.  You also have to compare youself to equally equiped classes.  I couldn't solo the nest up to the last mob where as Wabbit could, however as my aa's topped out and my raid gear got closer to his, I could solo the nest up to the last mob as he did.  I'm sure there's more 70th level SKs that can't finish the nest to the last boss, then those who can solo it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And JNewby don't kid yourself, guards have thier utility too, and with the next live update you will see some outstanding issues get fixed.  Or better yet, you can have our mitigation buff and you can be the miti buff bot :p.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest issue for me is deffensive capability I outlined earlier in this thread, if that is brought up, not even to the level of the guardian, but brought up never the less, that will make this class more usefull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And frankly this class should have the best agro in the game simply by the fact we are shadow knights, that is a class defining feature for this class.  Masters of hate, not mitigation buff bots.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with the hate.. all tnaks should hold hate better thern they do now....</P> <P>those intercept lines suck bro they wont be being used still <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I stated this before.. SOE shoudl jsut make a class called tank and this would all be fixed.. then everyone coudl play the boring vanilla guard type class and they coudl all do little dmg and tank raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <DIV>First, I don't care about solo or grouping, the points I make are about raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers in defensive stance have nowhere near the aggro problems we do.  The loss of 225 int for us going to defensive is a huge hit, and unless you make that up with a fury we will be hurt. All a zerker loses is some +crush/slash/pierce, and unless you're fighting Tarinax it doesn't matter much.  They have a reactive taunt (I think it is 50% for 500threat), so on multi encounters they can hold aggro with less effort then us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem for most of us, isn't that we can't hold aggro (I can hold it just fine on Single targets, groups, and multi groups if people aren't going ae crazy).  But the problem is that we can't take aggro when we need to.   In a raid  if the MT dies, how many more people die before we can take aggro to tank the mobs. The only tools we have to use in that situation is  :  Rescue (Doesn't always take you to top of threat list), and HT (can take aggro if it crits but nothing guaranteed).    FD is useless in that situation because you weren't number 2 on the hate list, and you only saved Assassin 1, so the mobs could kill Assassin 2.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>its called rescue  bro.. it is the only way I can take aggro as well... same for any other tank class.

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Ok, you took what I stated and attempted to twist it. I stated that if SoE were to fix the HP vs. Power Pool between the classes that I would be happy. Sry if you misread that. I don't need the HP pool of a guard if I have my mana pool where it should be natually because of my lifetaps. That HP pool would only benefit me on an initial pull where spike damage could go through the roof. I also don't want the complete line of MIT buffs warrirors have. I have seen the idea thrown around of a MIT syphon that I would like to see. If it worked out, then it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 MIT temp. Not that unbalanced if you ask me considering you can max your MIT as a plate tank with the right gear anyways. Would help out on the lower end and for those of us that don't have the uber gear. There, maybe now there won't be a misconception. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, you took what I stated and attempted to twist it. I stated that if SoE were to fix the HP vs. Power Pool between the classes that I would be happy. Sry if you misread that. I don't need the HP pool of a guard if I have my mana pool where it should be natually because of my lifetaps. That HP pool would only benefit me on an initial pull where spike damage could go through the roof. I also don't want the complete line of MIT buffs warrirors have. I have seen the idea thrown around of a MIT syphon that I would like to see. If it worked out, then it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 MIT temp. Not that unbalanced if you ask me considering you can max your MIT as a plate tank with the right gear anyways. Would help out on the lower end and for those of us that don't have the uber gear. There, maybe now there won't be a misconception. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>hehe we dont have any mit buffs cept aa line <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oh and temp ones but it was sonys dumb idea to make it so each different class had more health/power or whatver... we get the raw end of it we dont get high power or life <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not sure what idff that makes anyhow..</P> <P>oh and if they changed yer debuff that takes mit and made it like a 30 sec mit syphon.. that would be cool imo</P><p>Message Edited by JNewby on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Giral]

<P>in a raid HP and Mitigation is what a Tank need's , if Sk's have  Lower HP, Lower Mit,  how can they compete to Raid MT, We self heal even Less then a Paladin, and our Re-active liftape 2sec cast(more like 3.5) , gets Interupted and Fizzles constantly, <--doesn't come close to equaling HP/MIT, </P> <P> If they made Our Re-active UNinteruptable, and Heal for More at would help Alot with the Hp differance ,  and then the Mitigation problem , Since Sk's Lifetap i dont think a Mitigation Syphon is out of character , and since it Syphon's it would take Time to build up the Mitigation, This would still leave us Weaker for the Initial assualt on Raid  Mob's , But allow us to last longer as the fight goe on.  </P> <P>Sorry but there is NO way our "GROUP" oriented Lifetap's / Re-active lifetap Self heal us anywhere close to a Guardian's  HP pool, and MITigation in a Raid set up <----this is where the Huge gap in Tanking of Guard's Vs Sk's in Raid lie's Sk's don''t have the RAW HP/MIT, and they have no way to Create MIT or HP's to be Near equal to a Guard for Raid MT </P> <P> </P> <P>The Problem with Berzerker's IS VERY VERY Clear in a "Group" , Berzerker's Are a Tank/ Dp's that Can take an Increadible amount of Punishment ,  They have NO fear NO FEAR AT ALL  of ripping agro off the MT , 99 % of the time they will LIVE , they have NO reason to control thier agro in a Group that they Arent MT , and THAT is where the Problem with Losing Agro to a Berserker in a Group comes in ,     YOu hear Berzerker's sayin how much Dp's they can PUMP in a Group , TEL THEM TO TRY DOING IT NAKED and UNBUFFED ,       then see how LONG they last   :  ) , they will change there toon Very fast when they DIE 90 % of the time from Ripping agro,     How many times have you had a Zerker in a group that Doesn't WANT to tank, "Nah You tank i'd Rather Dp's" and then 30 seconds into every fight Berserk is UP and WHO's IS NOW TANKING?  the Berzerker : ( , WhY ? becuase HE is GOING ALL OUT , NON STOP DP'S,   Mage's /Healer's/Scout's have to Watch their AGRO and Control it or they stand a Great chance to Die and Die FAST ,     Honestly , They don't need to Hold back, they have no fear of death in a Group , with Some Good Gear a Zerker in Offensive will have Better stats then a Standerd Zerker in DEF/ Mitigation might be Lower BUT the Group MT already had the first 30 Seconds of the Fight = the Mitigation lost by going Offensive </P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>05-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Disagreed with the zerker issue. I don't have a problem at all holding agro from a zerker. If anything, it's the other way around. I've died many times because the zerker couldn't hold agro off of me. Problem was though that I was in offensive with my DPS gear which has lower MIT and is some cloth. To be honest, I can't think of a tank that CAN keep agro off of me outside of a pally with amends on me. -_-</P> <P>The HP difference, imho, would not be an issue if our power pool was where it is suposed to be at. Giving us 2 stats to cap it out is a pretty good idea, if it were to work. -_- I want to see that fixed probably more than anything as hate generation can be waivered with the right class in your group (woot, go bards =)).</P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>Disagreed with the zerker issue. I don't have a problem at all holding agro from a zerker. If anything, it's the other way around. I've died many times because the zerker couldn't hold agro off of me. Problem was though that I was in offensive with my DPS gear which has lower MIT and is some cloth. To be honest, I can't think of a tank that CAN keep agro off of me outside of a pally with amends on me. -_-</P> <P>The HP difference, imho, would not be an issue if our power pool was where it is suposed to be at. Giving us 2 stats to cap it out is a pretty good idea, if it were to work. -_- I want to see that fixed probably more than anything as hate generation can be waivered with the right class in your group (woot, go bards =)).</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The difference is in defensive, a zerker can put out major dps as a defensive tank, if you compare the dps and hate a beserker puts out vs what we do equally geared (as much as possible) and both in defensive the beserker has a major edge.

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Agree and disagree. It is all a matter of the type of hate output. A zerker has better snap agro capability but we have the Hate Over Time which does give us an edge over zerkers and every other class imho on memwipe mobs. We have the capability of a constant flow of hate if our taunts and spells are timed right. The zerkers and guards have the edge on snap agro which gives them the edge on initial agro. Defensive or offensive, I can still push out some decent DPS and I'm NOT in the best gear in the game by far. I have a zerker buddy of mine that LOVES me tanking for him when we're in a group togather. He knows that he can go full DPS without fear of peeling it off of me once <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Diern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rabid.pooh wrote <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And frankly this class should have the best agro in the game simply by the fact we are shadow knights, that is a class defining feature for this class.  Masters of hate, not mitigation buff bots.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I wholeheartedly agree. I could live with the lesser mitigation if we had the best hate generation and could fufill a roll as the "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hits the fan" tank<BR>

[Cichlasoma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rabid.pooh wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><STRONG>Get your int up as much as you can</STRONG>, (raiding don't sacrifice miti, group mobs sacrifice that miti).  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>It is very true that we need to do this for DPS, but the problem is our STR gets lowered by a great amount, in turn causing us to have a much lower power pool. An interesting way of correcting this would be to maybe switch the stat that gives us power via our stances. </P>

[Giral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Agree and disagree. It is all a matter of the type of hate output. A zerker has better snap agro capability but we have the Hate Over Time which does give us an edge over zerkers and every other class imho on memwipe mobs. We have the capability of a constant flow of hate if our taunts and spells are timed right. The zerkers and guards have the edge on snap agro which gives them the edge on initial agro. Defensive or offensive, I can still push out some decent DPS and I'm NOT in the best gear in the game by far. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a zerker buddy of mine that LOVES me tanking for him when we're in a group togather. He knows that he can go full DPS without fear of peeling it off of me once <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>yeah i have a Zerker buddy that group's with me also , im  better geared and mastered and have about 500 more HP and 300 more MIt then he does  , but when ever he goes berserk he gain's agro more time's then not, and i have to cycle tuant's and if the need come's Fd,ht,rescue etc......</P> <P>  Same  for grouping with a Guild group of the Raid MT Guardian, the Main Guild Zerker, just last night i watched the Raid Guard lose agro to the Zerker about 3 times an HOUR , and struggle to regain it, and the zerker finish the fight with agro , or guard finally regained it,  Gaurd never lost agro to any one else in the group ,  even when i would de-buff , go all out Dp's, and useDeath march and when  On the March  kicked in i use  HT i never pulled agro ( was an all tank group : ) Monk , Pally, Zerker, Guard, Sk and Defiler  : ) . </P> <P> </P> <P>any other Sk's have a problem with Zerker's and Agro ?</P> <P> </P> <P> i figured it was just me that has a issue , and then seeing a Raid MT Guardian lose agro consistently to a Zerker i didnt feel so bad : ) ,  but if no other sk's have a problem with zerker's could you shed somelight my way please , as this is the one class that i lose agro to constantly and if i could be tanking and Never lose agro to a Zerker i would be one evily happy Sk ; )  and i could have fun shoving it in my buddie's face : ) </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[rabid.pooh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cichlasoma wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rabid.pooh wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><STRONG>Get your int up as much as you can</STRONG>, (raiding don't sacrifice miti, group mobs sacrifice that miti).  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>It is very true that we need to do this for DPS, but the problem is our STR gets lowered by a great amount, in turn causing us to have a much lower power pool. An interesting way of correcting this would be to maybe switch the stat that gives us power via our stances. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually I think they should drop wisdom as being our secondary power stat, and make it int.  Soe has spread us thin, and my guildies mock me on how many equipment specs I have.  Drop the int and wisdom bonus from our stances, give us a stand alone int buff.  Wisdom does help with resistances of course, but as a DPS tank it's less in character, more a fit for them girly pallies.   I can get my int to about 459 self buffed in my DPS config, and it has little effect on my strength, huge impact on my mitigation tho.</P> <P>Now, my mitigation, avoidance and HP being equal that of guardian doesn't lessen the guardian, it's not your class defining feature.  This wouldn't make guards vanilla at all.  Guards have more tanking type abilities, such as your tempoary mitigation buff, Tower of Stone, and your aa 'god mode' (which totally trumps ours, we'll burn ours out on a mob that has a bloody damage shield on it).  If an SK had those 3 stats equal to that of guards, the guard would still be choosen on the tanking skill set, so I'm sorry but that point has little weight. </P> <P> </P>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Agree and disagree. It is all a matter of the type of hate output. A zerker has better snap agro capability but we have the Hate Over Time which does give us an edge over zerkers and every other class imho on memwipe mobs. We have the capability of a constant flow of hate if our taunts and spells are timed right. The zerkers and guards have the edge on snap agro which gives them the edge on initial agro. Defensive or offensive, I can still push out some decent DPS and I'm NOT in the best gear in the game by far. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a zerker buddy of mine that LOVES me tanking for him when we're in a group togather. He knows that he can go full DPS without fear of peeling it off of me once <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>yeah i have a Zerker buddy that group's with me also , im  better geared and mastered and have about 500 more HP and 300 more MIt then he does  , but when ever he goes berserk he gain's agro more time's then not, and i have to cycle tuant's and if the need come's Fd,ht,rescue etc......</P> <P>  Same  for grouping with a Guild group of the Raid MT Guardian, the Main Guild Zerker, just last night i watched the Raid Guard lose agro to the Zerker about 3 times an HOUR , and struggle to regain it, and the zerker finish the fight with agro , or guard finally regained it,  Gaurd never lost agro to any one else in the group ,  even when i would de-buff , go all out Dp's, and useDeath march and when  On the March  kicked in i use  HT i never pulled agro ( was an all tank group : ) Monk , Pally, Zerker, Guard, Sk and Defiler  : ) . </P> <P> </P> <P>any other Sk's have a problem with Zerker's and Agro ?</P> <P> </P> <P> i figured it was just me that has a issue , and then seeing a Raid MT Guardian lose agro consistently to a Zerker i didnt feel so bad : ) ,  but if no other sk's have a problem with zerker's could you shed somelight my way please , as this is the one class that i lose agro to constantly and if i could be tanking and Never lose agro to a Zerker i would be one evily happy Sk ; )  and i could have fun shoving it in my buddie's face : ) </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/sigh html bug</P> <P>gonna make this short</P> <P>Have same problem</P> <P>Those that dont, get zerker to use destruction, juggernaught, open wounds etc and watch ur agro go.</P> <P>Zekers Final wis AA removes all penalties in their different stances, meaning if they dont need 500miti they can then tank in offensive.</P> <P>As for power - I would like</P> <P>Str = 50%</P> <P>Wist = 25%</P> <P>Int = 25%</P> <P> </P> <P>Plant</P>

[Macors]

<P>Hello, I don't really post on these boards but lately I've felt compelled to add my perspective on the sk class. I've struggled through the earlier levels disappointed and on the verge of quitting many times, but I knew from EQ1 it was a class that was poor in the begginning but became overpowered in the later levels. So I stuck with it and gritted my teeth. When I reached 70th and finished off my aa's I found nothing had changed. I felt like I was playing a bastardized version of the original vision of what a shadowknight was to evolve into.</P> <P>Agro is a real issue and my main gripe. I don't casually press my taunts. I'm mashing all of my highest hate generators from begginning to end, and usually I have to resort to indirect tanking through Intercede and wards. I mean are we to feel that our class is being punished for becomming to powerful in Eq1? I love the thought of a dark knight, but it's hard when everyone knows your limits and pretty much see's you as a charity case on raids. We will never be dps, cannot be believed in enough to MT, Solo decently ,but not nearly quick enough to make it viable, and pvp isn't so bad as long as you see them first and hit your ht fast enough. I'd like to not resort to using it, but trying to work my other skills doesn't always pay off. I get worked over too fast by scout and casters. So what is our role? It's to stand there and let everyone look at how cool we look. "Wow, thats what sk relic looks like? Just glad I got to see it without having to roll that useless class." Sorry if I sound bitter, but it's tough not feeling useful, and rerolling to a class I have no affinity for just seems like jumping on the bandwagon.</P> <P>~                                                                                                                                                                                                                       </P> <P>1) Aggro- This has got to happen!</P> <P>2)a Real Pet- I don't want a fancy dot. Make sk's a real pet class again even if the pet is on par with Defiler's wolves. This could also help in pvp due to our low dps, and lets face it plate armor or not we go down just as fast as everyone else.</P> <P>3)Fix Fd- I have never saved a group members life without them cussing me out. Our spells should be selfish like what an sk is all about. make this self only on a much shorter recast timer. It may help us find a better role on raids.</P> <P>4)Spells- Death March is original and I love using it but make it worthwhile. Make the duration 2-3 minutes with 20-25 burst increments. Pestilence needs to be upgraded as well. Again a inventive spells, but falls short on the usefulness.</P> <P>5)Shadow Step- Many of you may not agree with me here, but you can't always expect gains instead of losses. I think evac was never really meant for sk's. The fact that so many of the classes have copies of the same spell makes the game bland. I don't mind chucking it if for a version of shadow step is implemented where you can randomly teleport just out of reach of combat. In pvp evac is kinda out of control, and it'll probably be ganked from a few classes so it might be good for a trade off while we can.</P> <P>On a side note I'd like to see more fluff spells. I think if they are creative they could add to the immersion of the game. I don't mean just throwing in shapechange spells that try to make everyone say ,"cool that sk just turned into a zombie", but maybe spells like sk's could get a spell that creates a huge cloud of fog around the caster. Or one that makes plants wilt wherever a necro walks for a short time. There are plenty of ideas out there, just thought it would add to the fun.</P>

[Xanoth]

personally i think our problem with agro is snap agro only, if your regularly loosing agro, either the people you are grouping with are just mashing buttons every time they can, or you really need to upgrade or re-think what generates the msot agro for you.pets... please no, i was [Removed for Content] off enough when my illusionist was gimped and given a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] pet to compensate.... yeh right.  you mentioned before about SKs being selfish, well yeh, no pets pls <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i dont role a necro, im happy being a SK, i dont overly like the dumbfire pet, but in master 1 its got some nice dps.if our FD is self only we're not gianing raid utility we're loosing it, brawlers and necro's have self FD, we can feign anyone, thats much more versitile.deathmarch has its uses, as does pestilence, although the later is much worse and i rarely use it unless fighting lots of trash solo mobs. DM is awesome though when it comes in useful.im sure im not the only SK that would be [Removed for Content] off to loose evac just because it causes problems for PVP... i dont PVP... EVER, and i didn't buy this game nor contoinue to play it so that i can get screwed over because PVP was tacked onto the game post launch.more fluff would be useful for all classes, especially illusionists, who currently have garbage for fluff.to answer your question for raids, personally i buff and DPS, and i give wizards and other T1 classes a run for their money too.obviously we all have our own perspective, and despite playing the same game, we dont have the same gear, same spells and same experiences, i just think its easy to be disapointed what wht you have based on waht you expect, rather than trying to make the most out of it.<div></div>

[gnarkill]

I totally agree with macorsha..only a few thing needed to fix us...perma pet would be great..and evac on my pvp server is awesome but id give it up for other things..hell id trade HT for safefall =P...I love my sk..tho I am a minority in being a lvl 70 fabled out SK on nagafen...I cant imagine how other SKs feel...I dont want to reroll but SKs suck in pvp and thats why I play..please help us out SOE dont punish us for eq1!

[Haavo]

1) Not being able to cast spells while running.2) Snare sucks, we need a snare line.3) We suck down the mana like no tomorrow. Don't care if we're a plate class, all plate classes need a mana cost reduc.Really the only ones that bother the hell out of me.<div></div>

[Jask]

First off, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off Gnarkill .... Just kidding, but yes it sucks to be a SK in average gear.  I agree with most of the common themes in this thread.  I mean I don't want to be the best tank in the game.  I would have rolled a Guardian if I did.  However being made to look like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing clown because a well equipped brig tanks as well as I do is BS.  I don't want a pet Shadow Step was cool when I played wizard but don't understand logic to giving sk.  And the whole power sink to keep decent hate needs to be fixed too.  Anyway,  it's all been said already.  Just really discouraging to not have a niche, feel like an EQ1 druid.  My best quality is helping nubs do things like carpet quests.

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

<div><blockquote><hr>Haavokk wrote:1) Not being able to cast spells while running.2) Snare sucks, we need a snare line.3) We suck down the mana like no tomorrow. Don't care if we're a plate class, all plate classes need a mana cost reduc.Really the only ones that bother the hell out of me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Those 3 things should be addressed, although citation 3 should read "Appropriately proportion the differential between Health and Power reserves as it relates to the other fighter classes." <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></div>

[Ramglob]

<div></div>1.  <font color="#ff3300" size="6">Cast on the run.</font>  By far the most important........especially in PVP.  If we are not going to be able to use bows / hammers / axes at least let us be able to kill a runner by using spells.   If we are fighting a Scout class we should be able to close distance and not have to worry about being interupted.  It is hard enough targeting the right toon in PVP let alone having to wonder if you are moving.  We should not have to just auto attack someone while chasing.  That is worthless.  Since our snare is basically just a damage spell at least allow us to chase after someone casting spells.  Every time I beat somone one on one they just turn and run.  It looks like Chariots of Fire with me just running behind them.  By the time we stop....cast a spell...They are already so far out of reach we can not catch them again.  If you are not going to let us cast spells at least give us some kind of unholy device we can throw that can stun or knockdown a runner.  2.  <font color="#ff3300" size="6">Death March </font>- Needs to be at least 1 minute in duration.  Come on.........15 seconds?  The spell itself is great!!!!  It makes having an SK in the group very attractive to other members but the duration needs to be increased.  The spell is just getting useful but the time it runs out. 3.  <font color="#ff0000" size="5">Hate and Snap Agro</font> - More hate / More Snap agro taunts!!!!!!!! 4.  <font color="#ff0000" size="6">Power -</font> Being a caster we should have more power regen and more power period.  Fine if you don't want to give us close to equal HP's but counter balence it with regen power or higher power pools. 5.  Give us<font color="#ff0000"> Fear</font> -  We are a scary class.  We should have fear. 6.  <font color="#ff0000">Invis</font> - Hello, the name of our class is invisiknight.  Therefore we should get shadow hide or something along the likes. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ramglobal on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[Margen]

<P>You know I think the thing that really irks me with death march.  Half the time it seems it doesn't proc, and no I am not talking about the stupid pet bug either.  I will cast it while tanking a group of mobs and kill one with no pet up and it still doens't proc the bleeping spell.</P> <P>Its bad enough that the raid use for this spell stinks, but for petes sake if you kill something make it proc.  Seems like some spells just won't proc DM <sigh>.</P>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>I just got confirmation that this thread has been forwarded to design - so hopefully we'll see some good come of this in the near-mid range future.  Thanks for the contributions, all!</DIV>

[ssythe]

<DIV>Would be nice to hear at the least what their plans are for the sk class(Fix our taunts!).Even if they dont go with what we listed s we have an idea of what to expect.</DIV>

[Gorl]

<P>1. aggro.. many good examples from others.</P> <P>2. diease mobs and sk's... only thing i can saw... make our disease taunts and attacks unresistable.. we are masters of disease and no mob is gonna be better than us at it.</P> <P>3. undo that stup fighter balance thing.  give us more hp or better lifetaps.</P> <P>4. give sk a ranged attack we can do while moving ( ok, paly's too).   all other fighter use bow, thrown weapons, etc.. if no ranged attack, then a snare / root.  eq1 darkness line comes to mind.</P> <P>5. if i cannot tank, let me dps</P>

[Ultimatum]

I agree with a few of the ideas in this thread.  Namely:1) Fear - we are supposed to be evil knights, take the 10 min recast fear effect off our Scourge Knight Helm and give us a Fear spell...Hell I'll take that as a replacement for Death march.  Which brings me to2) Death March - last I checked, this spell is STILL useless.  What a waste of a hallmark spell.  Think about it:  104% DPS increase at adept 3...first off the Master is pointless for that reason because you cant get a DPS mod over 100%.  Not only that, we get 100% DPS ONLY for auto attack...thats an average of MAYBE 4 hits in a 15 second time frame, usually less.  Now we also get +127 INT at adept 3...wow, so I can go 127 MORE int over the cap, effectively making the int bonus usless!  Who'd have thought?!  All the spell is usefull for is being a glorified situational sub-par Templar buff.  Its nowhere NEAR as reliable as Sanctuary, and it is utterly pathetic in the raid scene.  How about changing the spell into a maintained group buff that does something interesting?  Maybe a hostile spell proc buff?3) Casting while running is also a great idea.The things I DON'T agree with are people saying we need a 'real' pet.  The only thing I think should be changed would be removing the need for ainted Essences, and for that matter remove those stupid consuable items required for all classes.  Feign Death is fine the way it is, it saves many lives and helps control aggro a bit.  Shadow Step is perfect for a SHADOWknight, if I remember correctly, besides the scout classes, each class has 1 subclass with evac.  Priests have Wardens, Mages have Wizards, and Fighters have Shadowknights.  Doesnt seem out of flavor or out of hand at all to me to have 3/18 non-scout classes with evac.my biggest disagreement, however, is with people putting down Pestilence.  That is one of my faorite SK spells and is perfect both in flavor and use.  Its up there with the Coil line for most efficient damage vs power if you use it right.  Pestilence is almost always my highest damage spell on raids, sometimes causing upwards of 15% of my total spell damage.  It takes a bit of practice to get the most use out of it, but it is definately worth it.The only real problem with the SK class that I have at all is Death march.  I hate that spell with a passion and wish I could delete it from my spellbook alltogether.  Hopefully it will get looked at sooner than later.<div></div>

[Macors]

<P>Points have been made, some constructive and others seem to be going against what it would take to bring this class to balance. A few people spoke out against having a real pet, why? You claim to use Sacrament as a way to bring your dps, but you prefer to have to cast it every 30 seconds, and refreshing it on every new mob? I don't see the reasoning behind that. Having a real pet would make dps consistent, and to be honest I always felt as much a bond with my pet as I did with my favorite weapon. For those that can't stand the idea of a pet, fine. Don't use it ,but don't punish everyone else for you being narrow minded. Let the classes have some diversity so we can see the different playstyles that could evolve from it.</P> <P>I'd also like to talk about feign death. It looks like there are different views on how the spell should function. I personally like being able to fd whenever I like without the constriction of the 3 min recast timer. Some see that being able to cast it on other players as a utility. I'd like to see two separate forms of the spell. What if our current form of fd took the place of intercede, as a spell you could use on other players only to feign them out of agro, and give us another spell that is self only on a short recast timer and a much longer duration.</P>

[Soefje]

My issues would be:1. A FD that actually works. It does not seem to me that the 74% on the Adept I actually works 3/4 of the time. I will use it when I get in trouble while soloing and seem to die more than it actually works. Also, I would like to see the recast lowered.2. Aggro management seems to be getting harder as I level up. I would like another taunt, or some way to generate more hate early in the fight. If I can get through the first 10 sec or so, I don't seem to lose aggro.3. I really like the idea of a Fear type spell. But as a warlock, the fear component of the root causes a many problems as it helps. The MOBs run into the wall, out of range, right at you and then start auto attack. I would like to see a Fear that stuns and pacifies the MOB. This would give me the time to get off the lifetap.4. Lastly, get rid of the squire and give me an upgrade to my horse. I would like to see a fun spell that turns my purchased horse into a nightmare, or some evil type horse. Would not change the speed, etc, but just the look.Just my thoughts.

[Ultimatum]

I personally don't want a pet because I chose to play an SK not a summoner.  If we had a permenant pet, there would be MANY things that would have to change...first, our spells would have to take a hit to make up for the DPS that the pet would do.  Second, we would have to sacrifice other spells to gain pet buffing and healing utilities.  Third, and most importantly, I for one would not want to have to worry about casting a pet, controlling it, healing it, bringing it out of AEs, and all the other crap that goes into having a full-on pet while trying to dps on a raid, not to mention if we DID have a full pet, it wouldnt do enough DPS to worry about paying attention to it throughout a raid.  Like I said before, I would rather SOE get rid of the Essences all together and just leave it as is.  SKs do great DPS without the need of a constant pet.  What different play styles would evolve from the 'diversity' of having a constant pet other than every SK having their pet out?Feign functions fine as is too.  Why do you need a full-on Feign?  Are you a monk?  The main use for FD is aggro control, next would be saving the MT on bad pulls such as he accidentally gets social aggro, third is for saving your armor if you are soloing or if a raid mob starts wiping people.  I actually use feign a lot when I pull aggro on a raid, I can feign myself and it goes back to the MT.  I would definately NOT want to replace intercede with ANOTHER feign spell.  Intercede is very useful, especially on raids...why on EARTH would you want to give that up?<div></div>

[Jikko]

It is my sincere belief that SKs are, for the most part, one of the best classes in the game as-is. More than half the people in this thread need to shut up and stop whining. If you want to raid tank, roll a guardian. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want Sony laying a FINGER on my SK. There is absolutely nothing that needs fixing with our class at the moment, and knowing Sony's track record, if they try to "fix" anything, they're going to do more harm than good. <div></div>

[morningmists]

<DIV>Hello, focus buff?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when they did lu20 and made our spells interuptible by moving...it also made interuptible by being hit/ dot ticks on you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all casters/priests have self focus buffs...but they aren't even a tank class....here i am a tank and over 50% of my abilities are interuptible when a mob autoattacks me, or wound ticks for 30 dmg, or my groupmate hits the mob and thornstorm hits me for 12 dmg lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>currently the ONLY way shadowknights can self buff their focus is by being under half health!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>granted making them interupible moving was really stupid in the first place,  we do LESS ranged dmg than any warrior who can move while doing it and use no mana at all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>seriously stack up any common bow verse app4s, or high end bow verse masters...when using lvl appropriate arrows the bow will win by a decent margin, you can say the spell crit AA will improve that, but so will their +Dps or +haste or the AA  double attack(this by a huge amount)</DIV>

[G1Joe]

<DIV>I play on Nagafen unfortunately not a Fabled out level 70 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, however due to friends I have some decent gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although I feel much stronger as a class than I did in the 20's and 30's I agree with a lot of the things mentioned here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Cast on the run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Decent castable/ranged stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Short duration invis is fine but allow us to move</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Castable AoE Lifetap (as well as reactive)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) Lastly I think Ill go along with quicker Hate generation and existing DPS or increase our DPS for our Hate generation abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[gnarkill]

<div><blockquote><hr>G1Joe wrote:<div>I play on Nagafen unfortunately not a Fabled out level 70 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, however due to friends I have some decent gear.</div> <div> </div> <div>Although I feel much stronger as a class than I did in the 20's and 30's I agree with a lot of the things mentioned here.</div> <div> </div> <div>1) Cast on the run.</div> <div> </div> <div>2) Decent castable/ranged stun.</div> <div> </div> <div>3) Short duration invis is fine but allow us to move</div> <div> </div> <div>4) Castable AoE Lifetap (as well as reactive)</div> <div> </div> <div>5) Lastly I think Ill go along with quicker Hate generation and existing DPS or increase our DPS for our Hate generation abilities.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>lvl 55 tap veins is a aoe lifetap..one of my fav spells =)</div>

[gnarkill]

<div>        <blockquote><hr>Jikko wrote:It is my sincere belief that SKs are, for the most part, one of the best classes in the game as-is. More than half the people in this thread need to shut up and stop whining. If you want to raid tank, roll a guardian. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want Sony laying a FINGER on my SK. There is absolutely nothing that needs fixing with our class at the moment, and knowing Sony's track record, if they try to "fix" anything, they're going to do more harm than good. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Are you kidding me? try PVP with an SK and see what you say then...This thread has been fowarded to design team so I guess we will see what happens...Oh and as long as they do more Harmtouch then good =)</div>

[plantb]

<P>I'm having major problems with hate now and it is starting to annoy me.</P> <P>Plant</P>

[ssythe]

<DIV>I guess more and more agro threads will continue to pop up.Then again according to some folks theres nothing wrong and ALL of those people dont know what they are doing and a select few have no problems.......riiiiiiiight:p we have some issues that need adressing, nothing wrong with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people really need to pull their heads out of the collective ...es.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xanoth]

every class has its issues, SKs in general aint broken or even badly done to.most tank classes complain about agro loss. agro management is a group thing, not jsut the job of the MT to mash as many buttons as possible just because thats what the DPS are doing. people just need to start playing smarter, not harder.i regularly trio with a fury and a warlock, and rarely do i loose agro even if they both go nuts, as long as they focus on my target and give me a few seconds to position it, and let my ToT's sink in.i almost almost loose agro when a wizards stood next to me as im about to pull casting before i've even moved. and i love letting people that play like that die, as im not going to be forced to play their game.agro is an issue, but jsut because we're tanking, doesn't mean we're the only ones that need to be aware of it.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

Ok, keep up the good work on finding the problems with the class, maybe we'll get a response. I want to comment on something that I haven't been able to lately. There was a person that stated that zerkers can push out more DPS and hate gain than the SK's with both classes in defensive. Wrong. Labs raid, SK tanking (myself). Fought a named, in defensive I pushed out over 900 DPS, 315  crits and over a 10K HT. This class CAN tank and CAN raid MT. We have a few minor problems, but nothing that is that detremintal to our capabilities of tanking. We have life taps to make up for a lower HP pool, use them. Our hate is different than the rest of the tanking classes, adapt and have your group adapt. In a raid, if you MT bring either a coercer or dirge to your group for the hate gain buff and watch everyone pump everything they have at the  mob and watch how many times the mob flinches from you. =) Great class, love playing it.

[morningmists]

<DIV>funny with a 2h and offensive stance and 6 masters rest ad3 i get about 800 on most lab names, with a illu haste buffing me--and that's in a heavy dps raid, lots of scouts that night so things were going down fast which skews dps numbers higher</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so i know you are full of crap mister 900 in def, don't spread stupid filth like that, never ever post dumb [Removed for Content] sheet like that...go ask Kythic what they do to brigands who post they do 2k dps always when the guy's own logs show he averages 1180</DIV><p>Message Edited by morningmists on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[Giral]

<DIV>let's for 1 minute Assume that you did " 1 " time ,Raid buffed, out dp's a Zerker in your raid, what does that prove? Did you try the Same MOB With the Zerker as MT with MT buff's to get a Side by side? was the Zerker in Group -4  (the [Removed for Content] group)  and is the zerker of even Skill,AA's,Gear,Master's ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>am Wondering about the Single target Dp's tho, i regularly group  for Hof with guildie's Guard,Zerker,Monk,Pally,Defiler, It's a Machismo Group , Tank-Tosterone i call it : ) , and Believe Me we all Try to Out do each other, we go ALLout , we don't hold punches ,        Single target's     i am Never on the top of the Dp's playbill  Zerk or Monk  and then usually Paladin and then SK , Group mob's  Top of chart is Zerker , If All debuff's land, death march proc's and pestilance land's on first to die, i have a Chance to get to TOP , and even with everything Going perfectly Zerker still out dp's me 70 % of the time, UNLESS we have a Group of 5 MOb's and get Add's Then and only then am i 90 % of the time  # 1 on Dp's , if i don't have Atleast 5 mob's, my dp's is often lower then the Paladin , and have been out Dp's by the guardian on single target's ,  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>these fight's consist of obviously ALL of us in our Offensive stance , MY dp's should be Equal with the zerker and i should be close to TOP dp's on Group mob's it should be a 50/50 with the Zerker , on Single target's it should be Monk , Zerker OR SK,Pally, Guard <-------- this isn't the case in my experiance , </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'm not a SOLO artist but i conider myself decent, highest con i have been able to SOLO (at lvl 70)  is a 67 ^ ^ ^ , i hear that a Paladin can SOLO a Yellow Con ^ ^ ^ , and that a Guardian can SOLO a EVEN LEVEL ^ ^ ^ , i don't know what Zerker's can solo as i haven't looked into it and really don't care,  the above finding's are off the Guardian post wanting Better Solo ability <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can and DO lose agro Consistently to Zerker's ( and have been trying different set up's with agro for them NO luck) i Can and Do Consistently Get out Dp'sed by A near equal Gear/skill/master/adpt3 lvl 70 Zerker, single targets HE is way ahead, Group target's he's Way ahead, LARGE group Mob's, i have a Chance to Out dp's him if everything goes Flawlessly </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>morningmists wrote:<div></div> <div>funny with a 2h and offensive stance and 6 masters rest ad3 i get about 800 on most lab names, with a illu haste buffing me--and that's in a heavy dps raid, lots of scouts that night so things were going down fast which skews dps numbers higher</div> <div> </div> <div>so i know you are full of crap mister 900 in def, don't spread stupid filth like that, never ever post dumb [Removed for Content] sheet like that...go ask Kythic what they do to brigands who post they do 2k dps always when the guy's own logs show he averages 1180</div><p>Message Edited by morningmists on <span class="date_text">05-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I led the raid Naldir was in, here's the full parse:Format is [Name] Crits / DPS[High Hit] Naldir-10826[Naldir] 315/832.18[Zanzar] 3/761.94 - Swashbuckler[Numb] 23/711.81 - Ranger[Obeni] 18/644.32 - Warlock[Allestair] 50/638.21 - Conjuror[Vinh] 66/584.26 - Monk[Dezart] 9/575.33 - Monk[Khyber] 2/533.24 - Brigand[Aljaedin] 16/425.04 - Warlock[Doomwright Vakrizt] 0/421.27[Cheesypoofs] 1/378.88 - Conjuror pet[Reginald] 18/310.02 - Paladin[Jalek] 17/302.27 - Guardian[Kyrika] 0/189.96[a Doomwing reaver] 0/173.71[Kennae] 15/157.35[Avraxxus] 0/143.14[Dalgrin] 1/123.75[Cheeseyfish] 2/91.47[Karekn] 0/73.57[Emiosha] 10/72.36[Vaner] 0/51.03[Maridith] 1/49.84[Meltedcheese] 0/48.75[Cheesypoof] 0/37.36[Twiggie] 0/35.11[Bambam] 0/34.78[Sokolov] 0/34.47[Nagip] 0/34.43[Elva] 0/25.28[Danidella] 0/19.57[Konaner] 0/15.55[Raehana] 0/13.52[Kethryn] 0/13.22[Elchupracabra] 0/5.68[Ellyn] 0/0.00</div>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>funny with a 2h and offensive stance and 6 masters rest ad3 i get about 800 on most lab names, with a illu haste buffing me</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you have me curious as to who you really are. If you really can get that much DPS consistantly, they hurray for you. I'm glad you have a lot of good spells and get a haste buff. -_- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>and that's in a heavy dps raid, lots of scouts that night so things were going down fast which skews dps numbers higher</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, yes, that was a high DPS raid but I have only seen a parser get screwed up in a particular room in HoF where I pull the whole room and we go AoE crazy. Your claim that the DPS parser was broken is bogus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>so i know you are full of crap mister 900 in def, don't spread stupid filth like that, never ever post dumb [Removed for Content] sheet like tha</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Full of myself huh? Ok, I made a mistake, it was 832 DPS which I was the highest on the parser. Our guild defiler will be posting the actual parse on this board as evidence. Nice attempt to insult my intellegence and the facts that someone can out DPS a zerker. -_- Excuse me if I was off by a little on the exact number, but I still parsed higest in the raid, highest hit and most crits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>go ask Kythic what they do to brigands who post they do 2k dps always when the guy's own logs show he averages 1180</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know this person, nor do I care. I actually can provide evidence to my claims. For the record, I was raid buffed as MT, in defensive with a 68% haste. Before you attempt to insult someone, please have your facts straight. I don't know who you are, nor do I care, but your feable attempt to disprove my claim without proper evidence is astonishing considering that you were invited to the raid with us. The parse will be posted soon. =) Untill then, please feel free to rip this apart and be proven wrong again <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> morningmists wrote:<BR> <DIV>funny with a 2h and offensive stance and 6 masters rest ad3 i get about 800 on most lab names, with a illu haste buffing me--and that's in a heavy dps raid, lots of scouts that night so things were going down fast which skews dps numbers higher</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so i know you are full of crap mister 900 in def, don't spread stupid filth like that, never ever post dumb [Removed for Content] sheet like that...go ask Kythic what they do to brigands who post they do 2k dps always when the guy's own logs show he averages 1180</DIV> <P>Message Edited by morningmists on <SPAN class=date_text>05-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:45 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I led the raid Naldir was in, here's the full parse:<BR><BR>Format is [Name] Crits / DPS<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>[High Hit] Naldir-10826<BR>[Naldir] 315/832.18</FONT><BR>[Zanzar] 3/761.94 - Swashbuckler<BR>[Numb] 23/711.81 - Ranger<BR>[Obeni] 18/644.32 - Warlock<BR>[Allestair] 50/638.21 - Conjuror<BR>[Vinh] 66/584.26 - Monk<BR>[Dezart] 9/575.33 - Monk<BR>[Khyber] 2/533.24 - Brigand<BR>[Aljaedin] 16/425.04 - Warlock<BR>[Doomwright Vakrizt] 0/421.27<BR>[Cheesypoofs] 1/378.88 - Conjuror pet<BR>[Reginald] 18/310.02 - Paladin<BR>[Jalek] 17/302.27 - Guardian<BR>[Kyrika] 0/189.96<BR>[a Doomwing reaver] 0/173.71<BR>[Kennae] 15/157.35<BR>[Avraxxus] 0/143.14<BR>[Dalgrin] 1/123.75<BR>[Cheeseyfish] 2/91.47<BR>[Karekn] 0/73.57<BR>[Emiosha] 10/72.36<BR>[Vaner] 0/51.03<BR>[Maridith] 1/49.84<BR>[Meltedcheese] 0/48.75<BR>[Cheesypoof] 0/37.36<BR>[Twiggie] 0/35.11<BR>[Bambam] 0/34.78<BR>[Sokolov] 0/34.47<BR>[Nagip] 0/34.43<BR>[Elva] 0/25.28<BR>[Danidella] 0/19.57<BR>[Konaner] 0/15.55<BR>[Raehana] 0/13.52<BR>[Kethryn] 0/13.22<BR>[Elchupracabra] 0/5.68<BR>[Ellyn] 0/0.00<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>YAY, ty soko =) <BR>/waves to soko</P> <P>Highlighted in yellow was me, Naldir. Please show me where you were and your name please. =) </P>

[plantb]

<DIV>Do that again without the 10k HT and see where ur dps ends up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harms touch can add a lot to your final dps, what you should do is (if my maths is correct) get your total amount of dmge for the fight - 10k then / total fight time in seconds, then post the result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm telling you group with a zerker, who knows his class, everyday and you will see how pathatic our hate is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know, if you land dispoil and a sta hex doll on a mob then get a zerker to use Destruction M1, Open Wounds M1, Juggernaught M1 and the other CAs, he/she will most likely reach the 1k dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its far more easier to debuff a mobs AC then it is to debuff disease, therefore its only in certain raid setups and situations we could out dps a zerker, who on the other hand are more consistant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw zerkers have 5-6 taunts compaired to our 2.5 do the math.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[morningmists]

<DIV>where am I now? not camping the freaking forums every second of my life</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cried bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on 900 in def mode and I was right...so I have what to prove at this point? oh that's right...nothing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its odd that 832 is highest in raid, that's some kinda sad dps? or did no scouts or brawlers or summoners log in that night or something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>nah I think what really happened, your buddy just typed some numbers on a page for you to post in forum </DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>morningmists wrote:<div>where am I now? not camping the freaking forums every second of my life</div> <div> </div> <div>I cried bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on 900 in def mode and I was right...so I have what to prove at this point? oh that's right...nothing</div> <div> </div> <div>its odd that 832 is highest in raid, that's some kinda sad dps? or did no scouts or brawlers or summoners log in that night or something?</div> <div> </div> <div>nah I think what really happened, your buddy just typed some numbers on a page for you to post in forum </div><hr></blockquote>I recognize that my guild's DPS is not as high as some, but it's no reason to call me a liar.The explanation for our DPS is that we've only completed one T6 raid zone (Courts) and jumped straight into T7 raid zones.  Most people are in treasured or T6 legendary, many are recently level 70 or not even 70, only one has the full 50 AAs, etc.  Additionally, we are not a guild that recruits specific classes, etc. or builds raids around specific class requirements - we invite everyone and just have fun.  So yes, our typical DPS will be lower than your average T7 raid parse.  Additionally, the specific encounter in mind had a fear and if I recall correctly we had some trouble positioning the mob in the initial stages, which slowed down the DPS call, thus a lower DPS overall.In any case, I did list the classes of the players in my original post with the parse, so you can see where some other classes placed in relation - which is what is important anyway.We still have fun tho and managed to defeat the 3 linked named in Labs on Saturday with Naldir tanking (just under 10k hp and almost 5k mitigation, i think) 2 of the named and a guardian tanking the Ravager (somewhere around ~9k hp and ~4500 mit).</div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">05-29-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:14 PM </span></p> <p><span class="time_text"> </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">Also, mathematically speaking for a parse, there isn't much difference between 832 and 900.  For example, for a 2 minute fight, 832 DPS means 99840 damage, add JUST 5 seconds to the and you only get 798 DPS, shave off 5 seconds and you get 868 DPS.  So for just a 5 increase in encounter time you lose ~45 DPS. </span></p><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:27 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

<P>Obviously, you have the time and inclination to fabricate those numbers, do the necessary calculations to make sure they jive with the total damage of each char. posted, and then attach them to a board thread in order to prove a point. I mean, it's not like we have lives, or anything. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P>

[Sokolov]

When I am not fabricating numbers, I am doing calculations on heals for my healing guide <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[plantb]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Adept III G-B, lifetap procs., Vitae, T-Veins.. Improper scaleability? Jesus, with Tap Veins, I'm effectively a shadowknight who can cast Lay of Hands once a minute for two-hundred power. With critical heals, my Blessing frequently heals me for 450+ a pop, not to mention my various procs., Smite CA, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're not crippled. We're not supposed to have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing paladin-level heals to go with our berserker-level DPS. We taunt <EM>fine</EM>. We have <EM>less </EM>options for Snap Aggro., but if you have to burn more than one or two snaps, the situation is going downhill anyway, or else you have trigger-happy DPS. You wanna know what <EM>improper scaling </EM>is on lifetaps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>80 HP's healed for our most powerful drain. That's <EM>improper</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One spell that heals us for 2,000+, and damages an enemy? Power-free taunt in the form of Caress? High DPS? Dumbfire pets that transfer their hate to us when they die, like a sort of Taunt-Bomb? Are <EM>you </EM>kidding <EM>me</EM>? We're in the best position we've been in since launch, and people are still griping. We're as close to balanced as we need to be. ANYTHING else we get at this point is GRAVY, because even an average-equipped SK is still a fine tank for any situation besides a high-end raid.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Afik, dumbfire pets dont give u agro.</DIV> <DIV>Caress line requires you to be hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree though with the fact that we are fine if not da bomb tanks for grouping, but thats because our life taps etc are more usefull then.  However with no lvl cap increase with the next Xp, a lot of players will look to raiding, and that is where we lack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Necros in PP:R were parsing 1900Dps nameds lasted a min.  In courts they were parsing 1500dps for a guilded necro and 1800dps for a raiding guild necro.  That is a lot of hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not a problem though when the MT zerker is Parsing at 800dps as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Number 1 Priority Is Hate gain this needs to be sorted out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Adept III G-B, lifetap procs., Vitae, T-Veins.. Improper scaleability? Jesus, with Tap Veins, I'm effectively a shadowknight who can cast Lay of Hands once a minute for two-hundred power. With critical heals, my Blessing frequently heals me for 450+ a pop, not to mention my various procs., Smite CA, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're not crippled. We're not supposed to have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing paladin-level heals to go with our berserker-level DPS. We taunt <EM>fine</EM>. We have <EM>less </EM>options for Snap Aggro., but if you have to burn more than one or two snaps, the situation is going downhill anyway, or else you have trigger-happy DPS. You wanna know what <EM>improper scaling </EM>is on lifetaps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>80 HP's healed for our most powerful drain. That's <EM>improper</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One spell that heals us for 2,000+, and damages an enemy? Power-free taunt in the form of Caress? High DPS? Dumbfire pets that transfer their hate to us when they die, like a sort of Taunt-Bomb? Are <EM>you </EM>kidding <EM>me</EM>? We're in the best position we've been in since launch, and people are still griping. We're as close to balanced as we need to be. ANYTHING else we get at this point is GRAVY, because even an average-equipped SK is still a fine tank for any situation besides a high-end raid.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Afik, dumbfire pets dont give u agro.</DIV> <DIV>Caress line requires you to be hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree though with the fact that we are fine if not da bomb tanks for grouping, but thats because our life taps etc are more usefull then.  However with no lvl cap increase with the next Xp, a lot of players will look to raiding, and that is where we lack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Necros in PP:R were parsing 1900Dps nameds lasted a min.  In courts they were parsing 1500dps for a guilded necro and 1800dps for a raiding guild necro.  That is a lot of hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not a problem though when the MT zerker is Parsing at 800dps as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Number 1 Priority Is Hate gain this needs to be sorted out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Completly diagree with you there. With the right set-up in the MT group, we're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine for raiding. We lack a little in the snap agro departmen, but in most raid situations the DPS doesn't start unloading on the mob anyways to give the MT a little time to obtain proper agro. Time is where we accel with our taunts. We can push enough DPS and threat in 15 seconds to excede any guardian or zerker on threat. Add a dirge and/or hate transfer class to the mix with the passive hate gain of our STR line and you're looking at an agro machine. </P> <P>I have personally tanked t7 without any problems what-so-ever. I rarely lose agro and usually when I do it's in a situation where I am kept stunned for a long duration of time and cannot push my DPS and use my taunts. I see no problems with the class as is. I would like to see a little more love in the MIT department, but I won't complain since I can heal myself with lifetaps.  </P> <P>To the flamer that keeps comming here attempting to diaprove the claim of someone besides a zerker pushing high DPS on a raid in defensive stance, dude, the evidence is right in front of you. Soko does sit around pushing numbers at all times, this is where I derive a lot ofmy information when I raid/group for DPS and healing numbers of our group.  He has been a great asset to our raids because of this little action that he takes on himself. Not to include that he's one of the best [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] defilers that I have ever seen in action. Either accept the facts and add some constructive insight to the OP or stay off of the SK boards. =D<BR></P>

[Sokolov]

To be fair, Defilers are awesome to begin with =DOne thing I know about healing mechanics from my research into it is that it is VERY balanced (to the point of mathematical curiousity).  Rappy has done calculations which show that despite the differences in speed and amounts of Direct Heals that by the 17.5s mark, every healing class (except Furies) spam healing their Direct Heals have healed for roughly ~4800.  A big surprise with the Direct Heals as well - it is well known that Druid heals cast faster, and you might expect them to have an advantage in healing in the short term versus the slower casters . While this is in fact true, by 5.5s the slower casting healers have landed both their Heals and are actually ahead in total damage healed - I personally would have expected the faster heals to stay ahead for longer than that.   My calculations into the Special Heals indicate that each heal type appears to be balanced versus the others, having advantages and disadvantages in various situations but fully capable on their own in most every situation.Given this, I would suspect that threat generation for fighters are actually more balanced than you might expect (especially over time) - but we cannot know for sure until someone does a full analysis.<div></div>

[Xanoth]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Given this, I would suspect that threat generation for fighters are actually more balanced than you might expect (especially over time) - but we cannot know for sure until someone does a full analysis.<div></div><hr></blockquote>i'd have to agree, but this is why most people have posted saying that we lack "snap agro" rather than saying that we can't hold agro.because our taunts work over time, you usually get agro a few seconds after you've used them by the time your agro clocks up... that just isn't enough when you've lost agro and want it there and then. pestilant touch might be seen as good for snap agro, but with a 15 min recast, its not something we can rely upon <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />but again the more im put in a position to be able to push my class the more i wonder if it really is an issue. MT on a raid last night went down a few times from debilitating strike. i didn't have much trouble grabbing agro and holding on to it... the most trouble i had was mashing my hotbars trying to get into my defencive stance <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  thats now beocming more of an issue for me, being able to change stances without having to first cancel the one your in....</div>

[EasternKing]

<P>ok ..i keep seeing a lot of references to raid tanking and aggro generation</P> <P>NO tank is capable of generating or holding aggro when raid tanking without the use of hate buffers.......and with them hate buffers ANY tank can hold aggro, </P> <P>Snap aggro .....it doesnt exsist......taunts are resistable ....CA's and auto attacks are avoidable... Devs have stated that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate</P> <P>so yes SK's may have less taunt CA's than warriors ...but last time i checked Sk' s put out a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sight more dps (single target and aoe) than guards.....and better single target than zerks.</P> <P>and i myself when raidtanking have broken 1200dps ...i usually sit someplace between 800-1k dps when im raid buffed, (100% dps 76% double attack 50% haste and a 1 hander with 1sec delay and a dam rating of 85 , and all my dam shields and procs) helps out immesurably.......with me putting that amount of damage out ...taunts are almost redundant,</P> <P>my guild Sk when hes in the mt group is capable of breaking 1k dps, usually hes pumping 700-900 dps when buffing me in the MT group,  if i put him in a mage group with a troub he can break 1300dps</P> <P>what you need to do is stop looking at taunts and dps as different things....they are exactley the same thing for aggro generation and aggro retention.</P> <P>if you can hit 5k to 5.4k miti on your own...then you will be hitiing 6.3k to 6.7k miti when raid buffed.....if your sat at 11-13k hps as well ...there is only 1 mob in this tier you wont be able to tank ....and thats tarinax because hes immune to 95% of your spells / Ca's and taunts.</P> <P>we had all this with pallys not long ago.....the fact that you as a crusader can hit 6500 miti and 11-13k hps means YOU will be able to tank everything apart from tarinax. the problem is you look at that 6500miti and 11-13k hps and say well a guard would be hitting 7k miti and 14-15k hps, that means we cant tank and we are broken.</P> <P>it doesnt mean that at all, all tanks are capable of raid MainTanking, once you hit that Miti and hps ANY tank can tank in T7 raids.</P><p>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 AM</span>

[plantb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> plantboy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Adept III G-B, lifetap procs., Vitae, T-Veins.. Improper scaleability? Jesus, with Tap Veins, I'm effectively a shadowknight who can cast Lay of Hands once a minute for two-hundred power. With critical heals, my Blessing frequently heals me for 450+ a pop, not to mention my various procs., Smite CA, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're not crippled. We're not supposed to have [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing paladin-level heals to go with our berserker-level DPS. We taunt <EM>fine</EM>. We have <EM>less </EM>options for Snap Aggro., but if you have to burn more than one or two snaps, the situation is going downhill anyway, or else you have trigger-happy DPS. You wanna know what <EM>improper scaling </EM>is on lifetaps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>80 HP's healed for our most powerful drain. That's <EM>improper</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One spell that heals us for 2,000+, and damages an enemy? Power-free taunt in the form of Caress? High DPS? Dumbfire pets that transfer their hate to us when they die, like a sort of Taunt-Bomb? Are <EM>you </EM>kidding <EM>me</EM>? We're in the best position we've been in since launch, and people are still griping. We're as close to balanced as we need to be. ANYTHING else we get at this point is GRAVY, because even an average-equipped SK is still a fine tank for any situation besides a high-end raid.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Afik, dumbfire pets dont give u agro.</DIV> <DIV>Caress line requires you to be hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree though with the fact that we are fine if not da bomb tanks for grouping, but thats because our life taps etc are more usefull then.  However with no lvl cap increase with the next Xp, a lot of players will look to raiding, and that is where we lack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Necros in PP:R were parsing 1900Dps nameds lasted a min.  In courts they were parsing 1500dps for a guilded necro and 1800dps for a raiding guild necro.  That is a lot of hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not a problem though when the MT zerker is Parsing at 800dps as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Number 1 Priority Is Hate gain this needs to be sorted out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Completly diagree with you there. With the right set-up in the MT group, we're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine for raiding. We lack a little in the snap agro departmen, but in most raid situations the DPS doesn't start unloading on the mob anyways to give the MT a little time to obtain proper agro. Time is where we accel with our taunts. We can push enough DPS and threat in 15 seconds to excede any guardian or zerker on threat. Add a dirge and/or hate transfer class to the mix with the passive hate gain of our STR line and you're looking at an agro machine. </P> <P>I have personally tanked t7 without any problems what-so-ever. I rarely lose agro and usually when I do it's in a situation where I am kept stunned for a long duration of time and cannot push my DPS and use my taunts. I see no problems with the class as is. I would like to see a little more love in the MIT department, but I won't complain since I can heal myself with lifetaps.  </P> <P>To the flamer that keeps comming here attempting to diaprove the claim of someone besides a zerker pushing high DPS on a raid in defensive stance, dude, the evidence is right in front of you. Soko does sit around pushing numbers at all times, this is where I derive a lot ofmy information when I raid/group for DPS and healing numbers of our group.  He has been a great asset to our raids because of this little action that he takes on himself. Not to include that he's one of the best [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] defilers that I have ever seen in action. Either accept the facts and add some constructive insight to the OP or stay off of the SK boards. =D<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not flaming, I'm just a bit annoyed that this is a post saying 5 top ten issues with an SK, and 90% of us say hate, you then come a long saying look how much I parsed as MT in this fight, and we dont have any problems with hate.</P> <P>How are the Devs supposed to take us seriously if we cannot agree on something?</P> <P>Yes! We can do high dps.  Yes we can Raid MT.  But we need the perfect raid setup for it, something you seem to have found.  Gratz on that.  Your leader seems to know our class very well, and I'm sure he his spaming his disease debuffs and making sure the rest of the raid is.</P> <P>I didnt realise how dependant we are on disease until I dueled a raiding sk.  Nothing would land on him.  Despoil = Resisted, Str Debuff = Resisted, Taunt Debuff = Resisted, Pet = Resisted, Nukes = Resisted, everything we have (cept the odd divine) is disease based.</P> <P>That is why warriors can hold agro better.  There are no mobs out there that have a high resistance to slashing, crushing, and piercing all at the same time, thus allowing them to do max dmge to hold agro.</P> <P>You know.. Come to think of it, that is were the problem lies, Disease.  On paper I think we are equal to all classes in hate gain.  We do a lot of disease dmge, while warriors do a lot of phyiscal dmge.</P> <P>However things got messed up when phyiscal mitigation was removed from mobs therefore spells such as Despoil would make the encounter go minus mitigation thus allowing melee attacks to hit harder resulting in melee based fighters getting increased hate (under presumption 1dmge = 1hate).  Lu13 did not see the removal of resists from mobs which puts us at a disadvantage as we are all about Disease.</P> <P>So if a warrior had to tank against a mob who had phyiscal mitigation he/she would be in the same boat as we are in.</P> <P>One other thing.....  The whole thing about 1 Damage = 1 Hate has got me a bit worried.  The thing is Despoil is a nasty phyiscal mitigation debuff which means all melee classes will hit harder, thus creating more hate.  So does the hate generated by applying that spell = to the amount of hate generated by the rest of the raid over the 1min 20sec duration of the spell?  I dont think it does.</P> <P>If it does not, then wouldnt it be a better idea if we do not cast the spell at all?  It will not affect our hate generation as we are Disease based.</P> <P>To me it makes sence that being mostly a disease dmge tank is where our hate generation problems lie.</P> <P>What ya think?</P> <P>Forgive the spelling</P> <P>Plant </P>

[Kelkirra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <P>ok ..i keep seeing a lot of references to raid tanking and aggro generation</P> <P>NO tank is capable of generating or holding aggro when raid tanking without the use of hate buffers.......and with them hate buffers ANY tank can hold aggro, </P> <P>Snap aggro .....it doesnt exsist......taunts are resistable ....CA's and auto attacks are avoidable... Devs have stated that 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate</P> <P>so yes SK's may have less taunt CA's than warriors ...but last time i checked Sk' s put out a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sight more dps (single target and aoe) than guards.....and better single target than zerks.</P> <P>and i myself when raidtanking have broken 1200dps ...i usually sit someplace between 800-1k dps when im raid buffed, (100% dps 76% double attack 50% haste and a 1 hander with 1sec delay and a dam rating of 85 , and all my dam shields and procs) helps out immesurably.......with me putting that amount of damage out ...taunts are almost redundant,</P> <P>my guild Sk when hes in the mt group is capable of breaking 1k dps, usually hes pumping 700-900 dps when buffing me in the MT group,  if i put him in a mage group with a troub he can break 1300dps</P> <P>what you need to do is stop looking at taunts and dps as different things....they are exactley the same thing for aggro generation and aggro retention.</P> <P>if you can hit 5k to 5.4k miti on your own...then you will be hitiing 6.3k to 6.7k miti when raid buffed.....if your sat at 11-13k hps as well ...there is only 1 mob in this tier you wont be able to tank ....and thats tarinax because hes immune to 95% of your spells / Ca's and taunts.</P> <P>we had all this with pallys not long ago.....the fact that you as a crusader can hit 6500 miti and 11-13k hps means YOU will be able to tank everything apart from tarinax. the problem is you look at that 6500miti and 11-13k hps and say well a guard would be hitting 7k miti and 14-15k hps, that means we cant tank and we are broken.</P> <P>it doesnt mean that at all, all tanks are capable of raid MainTanking, once you hit that Miti and hps ANY tank can tank in T7 raids.</P> <P>Message Edited by TheEasternKing on <SPAN class=date_text>05-31-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey, been a while EK. An honestly for once, I completly agree with you, except for one part and it's only me personally. I highlighted it for you. I dont believe that personally. I hadn't attempted to MT a raid in quite a while untill t7 came out and I just wanted to try it. I do hate the fact that there is 1 mob that we can't tank, but, it balances the game the way that the DEV's want it I presume. A SK tanking that guy makes him completly trivial. (I"m working my Fury up for this mob <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>I believe that the fact that we are a disease based tank has made us more valuable in t7. Not having the MIT on our defensive stance, w/e honestly. You can buff your MIT in a raid without the like 200-300 or so MIT that the warriors get over us. (Forgive me if I'm a little unaccurate on this number, but it's late and I'm too lazy to look up the exact disparity). A lot of the mobs are pushing out disease damage which we are proficient at handling <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>My complaint in the past has been over hate generation for our class.  Snap agro will pretty much only work on herioc content as any tanking class would require time to build agro before all of the DPS classes start unloading. With a hate buffer in your group, any tank could pretty much tank most raid mobs. There are going to be mobs set up for certian types of tank as this is how the game is developed. For christ sakes, with a dirge in my group and a trouby in the mage group, all of the DPS classes are able to start unloading 4 seconds into the fight and never worry about losing agro =D.</P> <P>When talking about herioc content and epic content, we're talking about 2 different aspects of the game here,  as one  person has already stated. Herioc content, we do lack snap agro, epic  content, yeah, I am a pesonal advociate of either a Coercer or Dirge in the MT group and a trouby in the DPS group =D. Glad to see you're still around EK, I missed arguing with you hehe.</P>

[Kryptonix]

I agree about snap agro being mostly needed for heroic content, thats why it was 2nd as opposed to 1st on my list. A raid MT will almost never lose agro if the buffs are on him. Whats more important to me, is the fact that we arent as mobile as the rest of the tanks. They all have some kind of way to attack on the move while we dont, which kinda sucks. A spell line that can be casted on the run is needed for crusaders, not just SKs (pallys are in the same boat we are in the movement department). If not a spell line maybe an AA or a ranged weapon for crusaders, warriors have bows, brawlers have throwing weapons, we have books, symbols, and stone tablets that cant be thrown. Maybe make our snare better, or give us a root. Also a better mana tap would solve our mana problems I think. Mana Sieve is due for an upgrade, a really good upgrade. A direct mana tap would be good rather than the mana over time. Maybe even a mana tap similar to blessing... when a mob casts a spell on us we steal mana. Since were on the subject of taps. I really want an INT tap, I dont have trouble getting 400+ INT, but it would be nice to be able to steal something other than just life, mana, and STR and plus it would help out when Im in def stance. I know the SKs on this board would love different kinds of taps. How awesome would it be to bring down a mob's attack speed while speeding up yours (it would help with our hate gain too). Since most disease based mobs cast disease based spells and have high disease resistance, imagine stealing some of the disease resistance for yourself, making you resist more and the mob resist less. Since we are disease based tanks I think we should have a bit more variety in our disease debuffs. Since our signature thing is taps, I really think we should get a better array of taps. <b>Now imagine casting HT and gaining that much life back!!!!!! </b><< I just threw this in, because I think it would make us invincible and because they would never allow this to happen. <div></div>