Agro Control

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Just wanting to know if anyone else is having problems with proximity agro and agro control in general? I have noticed through the last few live updates that holding agro is becomming more and more difficult. I have all of my hate gaining abilities at adept 3 or higher and I have my spell crits maxed. My DPS is decent when I'm in defensive but I still can't seem to keep agro after the mob reaches 50% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My biggest problem classes seem to be Brigiands, Wizards and Warlocks. I don't know if it's just me or if SoE is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing with something behind the scenes and not telling us. Any insight? </DIV>

[mikeyswizz]

<DIV>i have been having the same issue, but with zerkers, bruisers, and brigs</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

I have never had an issue with zerkers, except in the incapability to pull agro off of them when they want it. Bruisers and monks can pull it off of me, but they have always been able to do that if they're in offensive. The brigand is new to me and so is the wizzy. The wizzies would only occasionally pull agro at the end of a fight but now, they pull every fight no matter what I do. =/ I'm serisouly sick of SoE and their secret nerfs.

[rabid.pooh]

<DIV>It's because they're getting their AA's up nice and high now.  DPS damage output is increasing, with these new abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are regularly tanking and don't have a hate buffer in your group normally, you really have to think about your AA lines in terms of what will give you the best hate.  IMHO the int line critting your spells is better then the outright % given by the STR line.  Also going wisdom line will increase you single target hate as you'll be able to hit it more (I think my hit rate was 95% in deffesnive stance).  However you could go str and just swing more, or STA and go for the crits.</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<P>I have taken the INT line and maxed out the spell crit which has increased my hate gain drastically and I'm working on the STR line to increase the overall hategain and increase in attack speed. The problem is comming mostly from the brigands. The one buddy of mine is 6 lvls lower than me and I take him along with me on the nightly vault runs and on every mob he is STILL pulling agro off of me like it isn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I'm not doing anything different than I have in the past except adding to my personal DPS which drains my power like mad and they can STILL pull agro.</P> <P>I'm at a loss. I don't know if there is anything that the SK class can truly do that SoE won't nerf in one form or fashion or another. It seems that the only way for us to have a chance at agro management is to have either a bard or coercer in the group for hate gain. Outside of that, all I am seeing is a serious decline in our capability at tanking.</P> <P>I hate complaining as I have known since I started the class that it was going to be a bit more challenging to hold agro than other tanking classes and I have arrisen to that challenge at every nerf. I just don't know what else I can do outside of having my DPS hold back untill the mob is at 50% health and then pray that they still don't pull agro. I love my class, but I am sick of SoE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing us over at every opprotunity. =/</P>

[Bruener]

<P>Originally I had my spell crits maxed in the int line, but after a respec to the str line and maxing out the increased hate percentage I found that the Str line is definitely the way to go first if you want better agro control.  And as far as keeping agro on multiple mobs, remind that warlock that it is everybody's job to control agro, than suggest to them to take the AA line with the hate reducer instead of the one with the increased damage :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Just my 2 cents.</P> <P>Deule 70 SK</P> <P>Torment on Befallen0</P>

[Telka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>I have taken the INT line and maxed out the spell crit which has increased my hate gain drastically and I'm working on the STR line to increase the overall hategain and increase in attack speed. The problem is comming mostly from the brigands. The one buddy of mine is 6 lvls lower than me and I take him along with me on the nightly vault runs and on every mob he is STILL pulling agro off of me like it isn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I'm not doing anything different than I have in the past except adding to my personal DPS which drains my power like mad and they can STILL pull agro.</P> <P>I'm at a loss. I don't know if there is anything that the SK class can truly do that SoE won't nerf in one form or fashion or another. It seems that the only way for us to have a chance at agro management is to have either a bard or coercer in the group for hate gain. Outside of that, all I am seeing is a serious decline in our capability at tanking.</P> <P>I hate complaining as I have known since I started the class that it was going to be a bit more challenging to hold agro than other tanking classes and I have arrisen to that challenge at every nerf. I just don't know what else I can do outside of having my DPS hold back untill the mob is at 50% health and then pray that they still don't pull agro. I love my class, but I am sick of SoE [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing us over at every opprotunity. =/</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have a sk and a brigand and I know a brigand if they wish can bring hate like noone buisness but brigands also have alot of aggro reducers and if they dont use all of there deaggro abilities they can pull aggro extreamly easy so make sure he is using them as to tier 1 dps well if they really want the aggro there really isnt much we can do about it

[Kelkirra]

These classes are my biggest problems since the last LU. In the same group the other night, I had a templar pull agro off of me. =/ A full round of tants, which includes a master 1 AOE taunt, adept 3 single target taunt and an adept 3 shield bash taunt. I think SoE has seriously [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed with the class again. I haven't had this much trouble hold agro since right after LU13. =/ I also have a few other toons and my assassin, yeah, haven't found a tank yet that can hold agro if I want it. That's the capability of t1 DPS, but a healer, especially a pure healer?

[Telka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> These classes are my biggest problems since the last LU. In the same group the other night, I had a templar pull agro off of me. =/ A full round of tants, which includes a master 1 AOE taunt, adept 3 single target taunt and an adept 3 shield bash taunt. I think SoE has seriously [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed with the class again. I haven't had this much trouble hold agro since right after LU13. =/ I also have a few other toons and my assassin, yeah, haven't found a tank yet that can hold agro if I want it. That's the capability of t1 DPS, but a healer, especially a pure healer?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have VERY little experence with inquisitors but I prefure druids for My healers I like the thorn stackings with out aggro buff that does dammage

[Kelkirra]

<P>My usual group is this for vaults:</P> <P>wizzy, SK (me), templar, warden or fury (whichever is on), brigand, monk</P> <P>Guess who has agro 90% of the time?</P>

[Telka]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <P>My usual group is this for vaults:</P> <P>wizzy, SK (me), templar, warden or fury (whichever is on), brigand, monk</P> <P>Guess who has agro 90% of the time?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hopefully you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kelkirra]

Nope, I maintain agro for the first 50% of the creatures life, after that either the wizzy, brigand or monk has peeled agro off of me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm by no means a n00b with my SK. I've MT raids in the past, I am the MA for almost all if not all of our raids right now and I can run a group through nearly any instance zone in less than half the time that it should take. I haven't had any major issues untill the last LU and anything that I've come across that SoE has done to the class I've been able to overcome and still rise to the top of my game. I can't seem to do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right now. I take it personally when someone in my group dies before I do and it pisses me off that something has been done and SoE hasn't put it in the notes. =/

[Bruener]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> Nope, I maintain agro for the first 50% of the creatures life, after that either the wizzy, brigand or monk has peeled agro off of me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm by no means a n00b with my SK. I've MT raids in the past, I am the MA for almost all if not all of our raids right now and I can run a group through nearly any instance zone in less than half the time that it should take. I haven't had any major issues untill the last LU and anything that I've come across that SoE has done to the class I've been able to overcome and still rise to the top of my game. I can't seem to do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right now. I take it personally when someone in my group dies before I do and it pisses me off that something has been done and SoE hasn't put it in the notes. =/<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Most likely it is the people you are in there with being over-zealous.  I can run through there without losing agro, or I can run through there fighting somebody for agro the whole time...[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] monks.  People need to realize that it is everybody's job to keep agro on the tank....as a wizzy in eq1 I maybe got 2 nukes off on a mob the whole time...and I didn't do anything till i knew the tank had the mob locked for sure.  People gotta get that frame of mind again.</DIV>

[Diern]

AlthoughI really wish sony would do soemthing serious about our agro generation. (Its ironic we went from the best at holding agro in eq1 to the absolute worst in EQ2) but I dont see it happening. It probably doesnt help that the people you are grouping with possible dont know how to control thier own agro either

[Hicar]

<DIV>There is no agro buffer in your group. No surprise that you can't hold agro if they go all out. If not, then there would be no purpose to the agro buffs. Just add one of these in your group : dirge, swashbucker, assassin, coercer, and you'll have much  less problem with agro.</DIV>

[ssythe]

<P>We need some love in the agro department it's no secret.I usually wont bother with a group if they have a monk/bruiser in it unless they wanna tank it's just too much of a hassle, it's been that way for as long as i can remember.Warlocks have been a pain also and usually ends up being more of a chore then its worth.Wizards... sometimes can be a headache but usually I don't have too many agro problems with them...Brigands I've noticed lately have become probably right up there with monks with how much of a chore it is to hold agro off of them.I'm guessing AA specs pushed em up the list.</P> <P>  I just kinda wish the sk community would come together like the ranger community did(we probably have in the past) on this topic.Kinda sad to see people post and say sk's are fine in the agro dept.... "learn how to play your class n00b" Meanwhile we all know its bull****.For a while I was going str line(for hate/haste) and obviously int but it didn't do much with agro issues(we shouldnt have to spend aa to be able to do our job in the 1st place) so ive respecced to sta(4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />,wis(4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />,Int(5-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> seems to be the most rounded set up ive found( and yes ive dropped 13 plat cuz ive tested diff set ups out).I'm just about fully mastered out(been offering 20 plat for despoil/drain vitae to no avail) so i know thats not the issue either.It makes me wonder if theres a bug or something that throws everything out of whack.</P> <P>As for the agro buffers got to remember there not always around, and to compound that some of those classes outside of swashie/assasins arent necessarily "out there in full force" if you know what i mean.I think the whole agro system needs to be looked at(and if it has already... it needs to be looked at again) while no 1 disagrees there needs to be penalties for going overboard and whatnot the system shouldnt be so restrictive that your walking on eggshells.The last thing I want if I come home from work and wanna log on to relax and "have fun"  is to join a group and get frustrated cuz the game mechanics are not getting it done.Not good buisness there:p</P> <P>                                                                      Cerisse,Mistmoore server</P>

[Hicar]

<div></div>I don't mean to say there is no agro problem. I just mean you can't say there is agro problem cause you can't lazily keep agro from the best dps class in the game w/o agro buffer. If you can't keep agro with 1 agro buffer, the parse are worth examining. If you can't keep agro with 2 agro buffers, there is something broken.If what i say isn't as intended, and you think any tank is entitled to keep agro from anyone by himself, then the 4 classes i cited above are screwed cause their agro buff is a huge part of their balance.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Hicarse on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 AM</span>

[ssythe]

those classes should enhance.. not make or break us.not sure if thats what you meant.

[Hicar]

That's not the case. We can keep agro from a comparably geared dps playing reasonably with out agro buffer.<div></div>

[ssythe]

It's a fact we struggle with certain classes.again unless folks come together on these things i really don't see it ever being looked into.And if we dont then i guess all the threads and threads of folks saying we need help agro wise are wrong?I'm as prideful as my class if not moreso then the next sk but pretending there isnt a prob isnt helping.

[Hicar]

Agro is a fine thing to tune. What i was saying overall is that it is normal that any tank has to work for agro against a dps class going all out, if he isn't agro buffed. I am saying that the situation isn't as dark as some say it. But now, i often make so i have agro buffers in my groups, and when i don't, i know i'll have to work some more.Now, i agree that we have less potent taunts than other tanks. And seen how many other things are puzzling me about balance, i'd agree to join my voice to a request asking about the dev detailed picture about what balances what among the classes. I mean, there has to be some weighting system for each ability, and each class should have the same total weight, and be comparable with their counterparts for the archetype defining abilities ( hp / mitigation / avoidance / agro for tanks). I'd be very interested to see that decomposition. And in particular, see what balances our lack of taunt tools (more tautns for warriors, amend for paladins)<div></div>

[ssythe]

Something like that would be cool or even if(BIG IF) the sk community could come together [Removed for Content] something like a top 5 issue list/things that need to be looked at or whatever.Where one person could go to a dev with it and get a actual response  since the devs wouldnt be getting swarmed to answer every thread, and when i mean a response I dont mean "working as intended".Who knows maybe we are but something else isnt and its causing problems.I find it strange i dont have much problems with summoners (necros are my favorite dps to group with since i consider them low maintenance) yet if i'm not mistaken arent they top of the food chain dps wise atm? And yet some thing like a warlock can pull agro w/o really trying.And no im not trying to drag other classes into it as im sure they all have their own issues but I'd like to eventually see some feedback in some for or another as im sure alot of folks would.

[hukikatlok]

<P>Ok, there are a few tricks... still...</P> <P>First off I have 4 4 8 in intel and this works well to help hold agro. Oh my Nefarious Carress is at M1.</P> <P>Second I have 4 8 8 8 in Str, this obviously help hold agro. I'm using a good fabled 1h axe, the one off the Black Queen till I get the one from the Lab.</P> <P>Sacriledge M2, all other everything else at least adept 3 or M1.</P> <P>Now, there are a few tricks. One thing that hasn't been mentioned here, at least it's what I've been told is that if you taunt on the end of your (or another fighters) heroic opportunity it effectively doubles the agro of that tuant. This can be done pretty reliably at the beginning of the fight on the initial pull. Then if you can get that Monk to set you up for your next taunt...</P> <P>Now, I don't suck at holding agro. I think I do pretty well and if you put me in a group with a dirge or an assasin or something even the tier one classes are going to be able to go relatively heavy.</P> <P>***</P> <P>All that said, I do think some changes need to be made. We do have to work very hard to keep agro, and it's tricky to get off a wheel without another class taking it in the middle of combat, you have to be fast or someone may be dead.</P> <P>Crusader classes shine with their point blank aoe's. This is very helpful in holding agro. One of the biggest challenges in holding agro is off a Warlock, cause they shine much much brighter with their point blank aoe's. Which leads me to one change I would suggest here today. I think Shadowknights should have a point blank taunt added to their taunt line.</P> <P>I don't feel this is unbalancing and would be in line with our other skills. It would create an actual niche where SK's would be the preffered tank, not just the one available. </P> <P>Also, I would ask the question what do Shadowknights have that is equal to but different from Amends? I don't know.</P> <P>I </P>

[Tyrani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hukikatlok wrote:<BR> <P>Also, I would ask the question what do Shadowknights have that is equal to but different from Amends? I don't know.</P> <P>I </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT size=2>I could only hazard a guess at FD....since we can gain back aggro almost immediately if the feign works on whoever is getting beaten on.  It's the most aggro-specific ability we have.  Amends transfers hate to the Paladin, while FD removes the hate from a group member...</FONT>

[ssythe]

Fd is once every 5 min tho and even if the recast was reduced i really dont think flopping ur dps every pull is the way to go( would be great to invite some1 you dont like tho).Our caress line is supposed to e our amends id think.now if its not game mechanics that are screwey the caress line would be the easiest fix id think.Sad thing is its been posted before and there was also a idea of a different version of amends where a sk could get a small % of hate per group member which while it sounds nice I'd like to see pally/sk kinda grow apart skill wise esp if the aa's in next expansion are leaning towards that also.We are too similar in many ways so me personally id say let them keep their amends and hav the sk's get their own class specific skill or...like i said up the hate on the ds.As for the heroic opporunity wheels I try and use em as much as i can but alot of the times i find myself stunned/stifled right off the bat so i dont consider that consistent.Although it does seem to help.

[Tyrani]

<FONT size=2>Ah....forgot about the Caress line threat proc...  Only real issue with that is it doesn't help us in getting aggro back, which Amends can potentially do.  For Caress to work, we have to have aggro already, but I agree that it needs a bit of an upgrade in threat.</FONT>

[Kelkirra]

<P>We don't need a slight upgreade to threat, we need a serious makeover. I went with my usual group last night to vaults again and we pulled the Libriarian. I went through my full round of taunts so that the DPS could focus on her, when the adds came in, they agroed my defiler and my templar. I used all of my AoE's including Tap Veins and my M1 AoE taunt. Both healers died because NOTHING I did pulled agro off of them. Result was, wipe. That techinique has never failed to work and last night, I couldn't  regain nor maintain agro no matter what I did.</P> <P>I enjoyed the challenge of having to work to hold agro when I first started playing the SK class, I've adapted to every nerf. I have gotten to the point that I am ashamed to call myself a tank. I can't hold agro with any means at my disposial, I can't take a hit with even fabled gear (t6 fabled with a mixture of t7 legendary). The purpose of a "tank" is to hold the agro and get beat on while everyone else kills the mob. If I am wrong with my assumption, please correct me. </P> <P>I have been a proud member of the SK community since I rolled my toon, now, I don't know how I feel. I know that SoE will NEVER do anything to bring this class to an equality to any of the other tanking classes in either herioc or epic content. They prove it with every nerf. I am resorted now to either soloing or playing my alts at this point. Thanks SoE for taking the fun out of the game because you feel that certian classes aren't worth your time for corrections.</P>

[Tyrani]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Dumb question....but the mob that you pulled, were the adds linked, or are they just social?  I know that I mistake social for linked sometimes and I lose aggro on those mobs because my AE taunt doesn't hit them :smileysad:</FONT></DIV>

[Kelkirra]

The adds are not directly linked to the named herself, but, I did have time enough for my AoE taunt to refreash before they came. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tyrani]

<P><FONT size=2>The only real thing I could offer is what I do...not that I'm familiar with that encounter or zone at all, but, nonetheless...(additionally, I usually group with a Necro that has little, to no, AEs, unlike the Warlock).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Typically, I reserve all of my AEs for groups (encounter based, and social).  If I'm pulling a single, I will use the AE taunt for the debuff.  If adds come, I immediately try and hit both of my out of encounter AEs, and if necessary, target and hit the AE taunt when it's back up.  Also, on top of that, I'll throw on the reactive lifetap whether I'm full health or not because healing/damage = aggro.  This will usually keep the adds on me as long as everyone is assisting off of me.  If they're not assisting me, it's their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] :smileywink:, not mine.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>That usually works for me...especially with classes that do use tons of encounter based AEs.  If they are still targeting through me, then they'll just hit the single, instead of the out of encounter adds.</FONT></P>

[colddecki]

<div></div>I was wondering the same thing...A few things I do to hold agro on a mob...I wake them up with a long range spell.  Once they are close enough I kick off the AOE taunt.  Then I AOE DOT, DOT, Taunt Taunt, and then the original AOE taunt is back up, so I hit that again for good measure.When I lose agro on a mob, then I turn and do one of three things, depending on timer.  I target the mob and either FD their target, Touch them (this wakes them up and then they really hate me) or I caress their target.  I haven't had too many problems getting them to hate on me again. Just FYI...  I'm not an uber SK like y'all, but I get the job done.  I have no idea how much hate is generated where, I just do things till the mob notices me, and those three things are side by side on my second bar.  They seem to work fine...Oh yeah... this is the first time I've felt compelled to post... feel free to slaughter the lamb on this one.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<P>These are all great ideas, but there comes a slight problem. I use these exact techiniques during encounters. =/ I have noticed a great decrease in the effeftiveness of these techniques for maintaining agro control. That particular mob, I have fought many times. Me and a few guildies make instance runs every night and that zone is one of them. That was the first time that we have EVER wiped on the encounter and being the tank, the blame was on me for not being able to regain and maintain agro. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have had to gear myself towards using more DPS to hold agro and now that doesn't even seem to work.</P> <P>Something else that I would like to point out, certian scout classes have taunts. I was in the group with my brigand buddy last night and we were discussing his deagro capabilities and his agro control abilities. He has his taunt at adept 1 and it has almost as much  threat on it as my adept 3 and Master 1 taunts do. He also has several abilities that improve his threat position from certian attacks. How in the hell does a scout class have more agro control capability than a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing tank????!!!!! Can a DEV PLEASE explain this to me? How are we as SK supposed to be able to control agro with was little we are given to work with and a scout class get more agro control and hate gain than their tank?</P> <P>I don't want to play some class that has the capability to do everything better than any other class in the game, I'm just asking SoE to actually give us the tools needed to control agro when they define the intial class as a TANK. I guess this is to much to ask for SoE. =/</P>

[Tyrani]

<FONT size=2>Not the ideal solution....but if that was (is?) the only encounter you're having trouble with at this point, what about using rescue?  Kinda sucks you have to blow an emergency spell like that though...</FONT>

[Kelkirra]

Ive noticed a decine in my capability in holding agro on most encounters after the last LU. It seemed that everyone was stealing agro from me, and I work my [Removed for Content] off during every encounter. If my power is ever above 25% during a zone, I'm seriously doing good with power regen (i.e. having a chanter in the group). After that encounter last night, I seriously just let the monk tank and left the group. I was ashamed that ppl were depending on me to hold agro and I failed them. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Then I found out that a fregging scout class has better tools at their disposal to maintain agro than I do without DPS.

[Tyrani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> Ive noticed a decine in my capability in holding agro on most encounters after the last LU. It seemed that everyone was stealing agro from me, and I work my [Removed for Content] off during every encounter. If my power is ever above 25% during a zone, I'm seriously doing good with power regen (i.e. having a chanter in the group). After that encounter last night, I seriously just let the monk tank and left the group. I was ashamed that ppl were depending on me to hold agro and I failed them. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Then I found out that a fregging scout class has better tools at their disposal to maintain agro than I do without DPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I feel your pain in regards to power regen...it seems after evern 3-4 fights (if that many), I have to sit and med for a few minutes before I'm ready to go again :smileysad:

[Kelkirra]

I don't stop though, that's what has set me aside form the rest of all of the tanks that ppl I've grouped with have rolled with. I use manastone, mana regen potions and Manaseive during all of the encounters. =/ A bit gung-ho I am, but, I can run through most instances in less than half the time that it takes most groups to =/. I just want to see something in the form of a serious fix to the agro capabilities for SK. I'm to the point that I hate logging mine in because I know what the class used to be capable of pre LU13 and I know the struggles that I've went through myself to adapt to the nerfs. I know all of that, I see my character, and I see exactly how useless he's becoming. We aren't utility, we're mild DPS and we're supposed to be decent tanks. SoE is taking the only thing that our class can really be defined as and destroying it and, as always, there is never an answer. There is never a DEV to clarify anything, there is only the community that has to face the trails of playing the class having to band togather to figure out [Removed for Content] is going on.

[Ekuthh]

<P>They gutted Paladins with LU13 as well and we've only gotten worse since then.  I stopped playing mine right after, which really ticked me off, because the class was stupendous before.</P> <P>And then I discovered the joy that is Necromancy....</P>

[Telka]

as far as aggro goes Ill agree its not quite as easy as it was before to hold aggro but as a class as a whole I feel much more like a SK then a year ago

[Kelkirra]

<P>I don't see how. Our agro control has gotten worse than it has been since right after LU13. =/ Our HP pool is a joke, we have nothing in the form of any type of MIT unelss we're decked out in all fabled and then we still don't hold a candle to what other tanks can do. Group and herioc content? We MIGHT be able to pull a little faster than a few other tanks if played right, but we're still going to have issues with power consumption and agro control the entire encounter. Soloability? We have a decent amount of soloability, which is what most of us resort to.</P> <P>What if you want to be a part of a raid force? What can you bring that is going to make them chose you? We're not utility, 2 group buffs and 1 buff that we can throw on a tank. Guess what? Pallies have the same buffs AND they can heal AND they can be used for Amends in a DPS group if one is already in the tank group so that the DPS can go all out. We're not tanks by far. I was one shotted several times last night during a relic run through labs. They use me to pull the mobs to the MT so that he can set himself up where he want's the agro at and set his temp MIT buffs. Our DPS, in comparison to other true DPS classes, we can't hold up. I've seen here that someone said that if we manage to pull agro during the raid that we can take a hit whereas the mage can't. Funny, in order to get maximized DPS youhave to resort to cloth and leather gear to max INT and STR which makes you just as apt as the mage to get one shotted.</P> <P>Where is our place SoE? What is our true purpose in this game? We're supposed to be a tanking class, without the capability to tank? Or are we supposed to be a mild DPS class without the capability to deal any serious DPS? Or are we utility without the utility? O_o I love my SK. I've stuck by and weathered out everything so far, but now? This is redilicous. When a healer can keep agro off of you and scouts have higher threats on their taunts with more capabilities to increase thier overall threat position, then you know there is something seriously wrong. And, as the past has proven many times, SoE does not look into the issue. I'm sure even if we did unite and make a call for some fixes, we would get, "it's a non-issue" and how productive is that?</P> <P> </P>

[ssythe]

<P>As weird as it sounds I've never had a problem with the librarian.I usually have the group bumrush him where it stands and i open with ht and make sure the healers are close to me.Although usually if i get a vault invite I wont go unless theres a agro buff class in the group.Makes me laugh when i get a invite and theres a bruiser/2 warlocks etc in the vaults group but no buffer class...I'll pass.</P> <P>On that note the other night my group did 2 hof runs back to back.I dont remember the full group make up but I know we had myself,warlock,necro,dirge and 1 healer-mystic.anyways im pretty impatient so i started pulls even tho every1 wasnt in zone yet.Needless to say 1st 2 pulls mr. warlock pulled agro prob around the 50% and I made a comment like i see im gonna come away with  a migraine.Then the dirge zones in.things go relatively smoothly with the loss of agro on occasion at te ends of fight to the 'lock...no big deal.We get to the 1st named in the MoA book room i usually set up in the left corner of that room and pull him to there with the group off to a side so they dont take the initial ae(seems to work good).Now usually I open with abominable, then as soon as the mob hits us i ht it to lock it.For whatever reason i lost agro on it to the dirge like twice and to the mystic once... this is even after i burned rescue.Instances like that make me wonder if mechanics are kinda screwing up.I also know mystic wards can cause them some good agro but my toon is like my car i know how it handles and know if i open with ht i got the mob unless i get mezzed or something.Well to make a long story short the rest of the run went real smooth other then we only got wood chests so we skipped the lock out and went back in.</P> <P>  On the 2nd run it was weird cuz the warlock was pulling agro like every 3rd pull.(i was makin him take dirt naps).And the problem persisted till probably we hit sothis.I thought mabe it was cuz the dirge was slacking off but i kept my eye on him and from what i saw he was doing his thing like normal.The warlock asked me if i was doing anything different and i was like no(only possible hting i could think of was maybe i was getting stunned right off the bat more then normal).So from what I "feel" something is "off" with the whle agro thing.</P> <P>                                                                    Cerisse</P>

[Kelkirra]

I've made many HoF runs without any glitch. Someone would pull agro right at the end of a fight once in a while, which is something that all tanks go through. Sry, no tank can hold agro ALL of the time. But is it not sad that we HAVE to depend on another class to buff our hate? It is the job of everyone in the group to watch their agro, but how can that be done if agro is stolen onthe first small attack? Something is off, and as always it is with the SK class. Do I forsee SoE making any change? No. Do I see a degression to what we were right after LU13? Yes, it's already starting. We have to depend on other classes to buff our agro while all of the other tanking classes can hold their own with herioc content. How are we considered tanks?

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Also, don't get me wrong everyone. This is not a flame against any other tanking class, if anything else it's a final cry for either answers that we never see or a much needed fix. It would be nice to be able to show my face to my groups once again and be able to be confident in my capability with my class. As of the moment, I won't be tanking for any groups. Our job is to keep the mobs beat our arses instead of the rest of the group, and if the only way I can do this is to have a hate buffing class step into every group, then I don't feel worthy to call myself a tank.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sarasoon on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 PM</span>

[Diern]

In flavour we are definately more like a SK than we were pre LU 13, but we are definatey due for a major taunt revamp, and not a bandaid fix that was recently implemented with KOS. The ironic thing is we are tooled for agro ofver time (a terrible concept by the way) It makes more sense to me that a raid tank would have agro abilities built that way. (like EQ1) The SK class for the majority of the community is not considered an MT. we dont have the pure defensive capibilities of the other tanks and yet we also have the worst agro control, making us the bottom of the barrel for heroic content also. How sony see's this as good design or balance I cannot fathom<p>Message Edited by Diernes on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[Giral]

<DIV>Ahh the Life of an SK , :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what needs to be done? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>our Dmg shield needs to Mitigate Damage to make us closer in tanking to a Guard/Zerker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and our Agro needs to generate More Hate , if it needs to be over time , then IT should be building Massivly over time to compensate for the group haveing to truely work to control Agro , by Mid fight we should almost never lose agro and at the end of the fight Should be a 1 % chance to lose agro <------------this is where are Taunt over Time fails miserably , we do not generate More and More hate over time, it stalls out somwhere near Mid-fight , so SK's  lose agro Upfront,  SK's lose agro in the middle and worst of all SK's  lose agro at the End of fight's <<Middle to End of fight's is when SK's are suppose to have the Most Hate of all Tank classes , if all other Grab the most UPfront and generate enough over time to lose agro less ofetn then ToT is highly flawed , in that it gives SK's nothing for the added effort of group functionality , if groups work thier Behind's off to control Agro Up-front, then it should Pay off 10 fold near the Middle to End in that they should be able to DP's like gods now </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so what is the Purpose of Taunt over time if by the End of a fight we have the same agro pool as all other tank's have ??? shouldn't we have Way more at the END since they have Way more at the Beginning ????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lastly is power , we need to Burn everysingle skill we have if MT , on everysingle MOB, left OOP or close to it on every pull, and have to wait to Regain to proceed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so Group needs to WAIT to DP's and Heal, Group needs to Wait for SK's Power to regen after Every mob = why group an SK? when you can be Sailing along with Half the down time with another tank? and have less chance of Gaining agro off other tanks also : ( </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cichlasoma]

<P>I've said it many times and I will say it again. We have always had agro problems, maybe some more then others nevertheless it was there. The HoT doesn't work well enough to hold aggro. There are 2 problems A) encounters are too short to build up aggro over time. B) The main issue...the hate being caused by DPS is too high. Which means that the amount of hate we can put into a mob with taunts vs the amount of hate a decent DPS can produce is not enough. Which leads to not having enough taunt hate to pull the mob back off again(maybe sometimes usualy its dead before this happens)</P> <P>SOE has several choices.</P> <UL> <LI>increase how much hate our caress line creates...which isn't very much since the update. </LI> <LI>increase our taunts or get another one</LI> <LI>or make it so that taunt hate has a higher ratio then DPS hate.</LI></UL>

[Carna]

<P>If my Brigand hits Debilitate... Dispatch ... bang... bang... bang... bang... he'll pull aggro off a Guardian. I don't think it's an SK issue with Brigands simply that Brigands don't shed aggro quite as well as the other scouts combined with the fact their debuffs are a big aggro producer.</P> <P>If you pile onto that WIS AA (which I dont have yet) then there's the potential for the careless to produce a big problem.... this is being addressed (nerfed) next patch.</P> <P>Some Scouts also get really excited pulling aggro also. For some it's a way for them to shout "I'm producing loads of dps!"... silly I know.</P> <P>The INT line is there for Rogues (includes aggro reducers) should they need it, and if a Rogue is pulling aggro on a regular basis he needs it... good Rogues, Brigands or otherwise don't pull aggro. It's merely harder for Swashbucklers to pull aggro if they have their hate transfer up. And it's kinda blatant for them not to have it up.</P>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <P>If my Brigand hits Debilitate... Dispatch ... bang... bang... bang... bang... he'll pull aggro off a Guardian. I don't think it's an SK issue with Brigands simply that Brigands don't shed aggro quite as well as the other scouts combined with the fact their debuffs are a big aggro producer.</P> <P>If you pile onto that WIS AA (which I dont have yet) then there's the potential for the careless to produce a big problem.... this is being addressed (nerfed) next patch.</P> <P>Some Scouts also get really excited pulling aggro also. For some it's a way for them to shout "I'm producing loads of dps!"... silly I know.</P> <P>The INT line is there for Rogues (includes aggro reducers) should they need it, and if a Rogue is pulling aggro on a regular basis he needs it... good Rogues, Brigands or otherwise don't pull aggro. It's merely harder for Swashbucklers to pull aggro if they have their hate transfer up. And it's kinda blatant for them not to have it up.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's true!  My friend plays a brigand...and I had her read me the effects of Ruse (increases hate by 2 postitions).  Hate, when it comes to brigands, is just plain wonky.</P>

[Kelkirra]

<P>The problems are still there though. Scouts have a greater hate gain than a tank class WITHOUT constantly DPSing. It is well known that any DPS class can pull agro from almost any tank at any given time if they want it. That is to be understandable. The issue here is that ANY class at any given point in time during an encounter can pull agro off of the SK and maintain it not matter the efforts of the SK. Why is this? Someone not playing the class to it's full extent? I would have expected that response when I first posted, but I am no n00b to this class as I have play it since before LU13.</P> <P>There is something screwy with the game mechanics that has happened with the last 2 LU and there is STILL no DEV response. There are still no answers. We are the red-headed step children of SoE. </P>

[Margen]

<P>Part of the problem is shared with the entire tanking community.  DPS classes have become more and more powerful in their primary job, while tanks become stagnate in aggro.  Getting tuant upgrades every 14 levels make the problems more pronounced.  Trust me in 14 levels dps classes damage ability increase greatly.</P> <P>The problem with Shadow Knights is that we still are last in the world of plate tanks on aggro.  Supposedly our dps is supposed to make up for the difference, but if you are in defensive mode our dps becomes very poor (yes there should be a penalty, but considering our dps is primarly int based, the penalty can be huge).</P> <P>Fact is on the easy instances, vaults, black scale etc. if my healer(s) are good (and my guild has some very good healers), I go offensive in my tanking gear for better aggro, problem is that is not an option for HOF.  Raids SK's are the last choice for MT because we are last in HP's, Mitigation and aggro.  Kind of a three stike combo, </P> <P>Plus as the so called disease tank, one very few mobs are disease based and two when they are they seem to be immune/highly resistant to disease damage ... so aggro is even worse.</P> <P>Should shadow knights be the best at every thing, no not asking for that, will let the Guardians whine about that.  But we should be the best at SOMETHING in the realm of tanks.</P>

[Ep]

I'd like to comment on this thread as i've spent 2 weeks of aggro testing. First off i'm a zerker, i'm a spoiled one, for 70lvls i've always had my coercer GF with me, yea even with 2 guildly warlocks i never lost aggro. So while running through claymore quest(to poa end) for 2weeks and still now, she hasn't casted enraging demeanor on me once(46% hate or something, it's alot). Either in Trio, or other various ppl i didn't have much of a problem, sure i had to adjust for a few days, on pull i'd spam taunt and recast midway, but it worked in the end, she'd actually pull aggro most with charm pet or aoe, stuns and stuff.zerker:1 single taunt/interrupt, 10secs1 aoe taunt 20secs1 taunt/dmg 8secs1 rescue1 encounter wide rescue dot/ds, 3mins1 ds/taunt 20% to proc hate/dmg1 single target stun1 shield bash1 encounter wide knockdown1 aoe stunI always tank in offensive stance with a 2hander, my cleric is always full of mana, if theres a group heroic encounter and 3, ^^^ lvl 70s added or whatever he'll be 50% by the end of the fight, i'll still tank in offstance/2hander and cast off my 2 mit temp buffs(1 also gives snare to self and proc snare to them, with haste decrease to me, still temporary) Survived lots of encounters trio like this, i'll really only go def stance and shield/1hander if it "feels" bad, you know what i mean by that, or to tank a dragon named(poa, in claymore series).Again as i said even without coercer aggro hate increaser(btw i'm pretty sure coercer/dirge have aggro increase, not a siphon, so it's up to you to generate the hate, as oppossed to swash/assasin aggro xfer, or pallys aggro siphon... this is in regards to the post a few up there about looking at the dirge to make sure he did his job, but again i'm pretty sure it's aggro increase on target) i had to learn to replay, but after a few days it was relatively easy again. Sure cleric even said himself, it's easier if i get an aggro increaser, b/c no one would gain aggro, but it's not the worst in the world, i'd gain it back after 2 taunts(if those didn't work, i'd run straight to rescue, and if by chance it was down, or i had a big encounter train, i'd stun the mobs and taunt again). Now as an AA choice option also, (i only have about 39 so far, we've not been exp as much as we used to) i've also been testing out a line that gives +hate to myself. So far i've gotten about constant +2.5% hate, and you know what, it feels just like it was back then when i had enraging demeanor on me all those months back, not as great but definently there.Even with coercer mana regen(highest out of them all i'm pretty sure, coercer/illusionist/troub/dirge or something like that) i'm pretty low on mana, have no mana regen items(no moa at this point) no racial abilites, and manastone every 60seconds. So yes i to also have to CA and taunt to hold aggro a lot during an encounter.again i'm writing this as another fighter observer, i have no idea how other fighters(besides guard, almost same class, studied it too) generates hate or keeps it, this is how i do it, with the tools/spells at hand. All my taunts are masters, so i get the 48%/48% and the dmg/taunt one master is still 30% resistability. I dont' know if it matters heavily , but when i taunt i don't want it to even have a remote chance of being resisted.half my stuns and other junk are masters too, along with the 2/ rescue type spells that are never resisted.if i pull an encounter, i'll usually shoot an arrow, run back (while casting aoe taunt, non interruptable) turn mob, cast ho/sword icon spell, taunt, close HO, throw last taunt in, and i'm usually aggro locked for the rest of the 20/30 second encounter fight, regardless of having hate buff casted on me or not, regardless of ranger or warlock in group. If it's a group encounter, (lets just say 2, 69^ and 1, ^^^70) i'll do the same, pull with arrow, cast aoe taunt, while running back, turn mob, cast ho/taunt, then follow up with aoe stun/aoe KD, and a regular aoe dmg ca, and have aggro lock there.I haven't raided in a long while, but on T6 raid mobs, i also always had aggro lock, aside from the mobs that memblur, and then i got it back when MA took aggro and such. Again tho on raids, always had coercer with me.<div></div>

[ssythe]

<DIV>They should just change the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] name of this game to Agro-Quest there is too much emphasis on it.They need to loosen the reigns just a notch.</DIV>

[Fistantantilus]

To be honest, I did not pay much attention to aggro since I was soloing most of the time, but when I started doing the claymore quests I had to group and most of the times MT in the group unless there was a berserker there.  It is always pick up groups.Yesterday I had me and 3 other ppl (berserker, inquisitor and wizard) and  they made me MT over the berserker. He said he was lagging the wizzy was insisting that I should MT. Anyways I MTed.  I was in PoA, wanted to start 6 o'flock high so we had to go to the green dragon room.In order to cope with the wizzy's dps I was in offensive, so was berserker.  I could keep aggro for the 90% of the fights np BUT i was marginally oom all of the time. Outside the summoner the inquisitor asked me to go to defensive cuz he was healing too much, he said, so I did. That was it ... Wizzy was getting aggro almost all the time, berserker too sometimes. It was nightmare. Honestly I cannot remember the last time I have tried that much to hold aggro. We made it alive killed the dragon too but god that was totally nightmarish.I swear it is God laughing at me because when I was in eq1 I was taunting warriors I can hold aggro with a fishing pole in powater (and I actually could). With a warlock also once I had issues. I was casting all my ae which are adept III or master I and he could get aggro around 25% of the fight np.All my taunts are master or adept III (except the nefarious caress but I am working on it). Dunno really... Why do I need to be constantly oom in a group when I MT in order to keep aggro ? They give dps classes AA to do more dps but what do they give us sks to compensate for their increased dps. To be honest what I am doing when I have a dps in my group throwing the kitchen sink on the mobs all the time is that I alternate fd and rescue. It works when we have to move around for a while but for chain fights that is not fast enough :p<div></div>

[Diern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fistantantilus wrote:<BR><BR>I swear it is God laughing at me because when I was in eq1 I was taunting warriors I can hold aggro with a fishing pole in powater (and I actually could). <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>thats so true, Sony is probably punishing us because of it. this truely was our saving grace in EQ1 and now we dont even have that, its cruel sony, just cruel<BR>

[ssythe]

i kinda thought that too.... i tell folks it makes me feel like sk's have gone from the penthouse to the outhouse.

[Nicholai24]

<P>With an Adept III Single-Target taunt, and a Master I AE Taunt, I have no problem at all maintaining aggro., with or without a Dirge or Coercer in the group, even when I have bruisers, warlocks, monks, and 'serkers grouped with me. Granted, shadowknights are probably the only class in EQII as far as tanks are concerned which literally require a certain approach to achieve and maintain aggro., but it's really not that difficult for me, and it only takes a second to inform a group.</P> <P> </P> <P>1. I buff myself with Blessing, and pull with an Anger or Coil spell, depending on which hotkey I happen to hit first. This is inconsequential.</P> <P>2. When the enemy is approaching me, I immediately activate the Heroic Op. button, and launch a Coil, Anger, Vitae, or Smite.. Anything which will begin a Sky Cleave / AE Cleave. I prefer nukes to combat arts, because stuff tends to parry and riposte.</P> <P>3. I complete the Op. with AE Taunt, and time it so that as soon as it is completed, the heroic op. button is prepared to fire again. At this point, the group starts in with DPS. I shield bash, complete my second heroic op. with my single-target taunt, and if the situation requires it, I launch my various AE damage spells, saving Tap Veins for a rainy day. From then on, I simply launch combat arts, spells, and taunts whenever they load, and occasionally fire another Op. </P> <P>The hate gain from a Heroic Opportunity -- Sky Cleave, etc. -- is MASSIVE compared to using the taunts by themselves. Like I said, I have no clue what people are talking about when they rant about how they're losing aggro., even when they tell their group to hold DPS until the mob has been taken to 50% by your attacks alone, but unless I'm playing some sort of Twilight Zone version of EQII, I'm not seeing a problem. It's hard to hold aggro. compared to other tanks, but that's how it's always been.</P> <P>On a separate but somewhat related note, I haven't heard of using Heroic Ops. to maintain aggro. on this thread at all, up until the post I'm making now, and when I group with other shadowknights, I never see them bother to use them either,</P> <P>That's literally all there is to it for me. I don't burn Rescue, I don't burn Harm Touch.. I land a few spells, a couple of Heroic Ops, and a few shield slams, and then I randomly launch combat arts and spells until my target is dead. I'm not sure what the precise aggro. gain is as far as my Blessing's heal / DD on the initial engagement, but I seem to have a much easier time of maintaining aggro. with it on to begin with than I do when it's not up.</P> <P>This is not to say that a Bruiser or Monk with their aggro. proc on who doesn't assist you or who spams combat arts on the first two seconds of engagement won't probably yank your aggro. away faster than you can blink.. but it's not hard to tell them to relax for a second or two. It doesn't make that much difference to them, usually.</P> <P>That's about it. I have to say, if our hate maintenance abilities have been heavily nerfed and we're broken as group tanks and raid tanks, it's definitely news to me.</P> <P> </P> <P>By the way -- I never tank in offensive.</P> <P> </P> <P>Food for thought.</P>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>Ok, interesting prospective. I was more or less talking about the effects of the past few LU on the hate gain mechanics. After a patch on my server, my agro management has retained it's initial glory. As far as using HO's, yeah ,use them constantly. Try grouping with some overpowered DPS classes. I'm used to losing agro occasionally as all tanks should be, but to not be able to pull agro from a shammie and templar with them literally doing nothing? That was what was baffeling me. The situation I was in, I used everything at my disposial, HT, Rescue, FD, taunting my [Removed for Content] off and my DPS and it was all to no avail.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if you roll with any type of REAL DPS man, but the mechanics are still a little screwy. I"m used as a MT for guild groups constantly. I'm used as a MA for our raids because of my knowledge of agro management (and the fact that I seem to be the only tank that can pull agro off of a wizzy after they open up with ice nova -_-) so I am not new to the concept of hate gain at all. The fact remains that there is to much of a gap with our hate gain over all of the other tanking classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take this as food for though. How much INT do you lose when you go from offensive to defensive? Do you wear nothing but fabled gear? Are all of your healers buffs and heals M1 or App4? I have all of my hate gaining abilities Adept 3 and up with several pieces of fabled gear and my healers all have Adept 3 and up buffs and heals. There is an issue with this class wether you would like to aknowledge it or not my friend. Go to HoF in offensive and see how quickly you go down -_-. There is to much disparity between our stances. If our hate gain is supposed to come from DPS, then we either need more self MIT buffs or some INT in our defensive buffs so that we don't lose so much of our agro control going from DPS mode to tanking mode. Sry, you can't tank an epic in offensive, I don't care what you say.</DIV>

[Nicholai24]

<DIV>Either you didn't read what I said thoroughly, or else something got lost in the translation. Of course I can't tank an epic in Offensive stance -- Hell, I wouldn't have attempted it back in the days of T5 being the maximum. As far as intel. loss is concerned, yeah, it's relatively significant I guess.. but really, even with capped intel. AAs and an assortment of Fabled / Legendary equipment, my intel never really exceeds 350ish unless I switch to cloth armor, so the amount of DPS I lose never seems to make much difference in my capabilities to retain aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for " rolling " with " REAL " DPS classes, I'm fairly sure that T7 Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins count. Like I said earlier, so long as I follow my system of aggro. maintenance, I retain aggro. 95% of the time, and occasionally lose it near the end of a combat. If you can't pull Hate away from a Templar or Inquisitor or any healer ( although I have noticed Mystics seem to be pulling and retaining hate more than I seem to remember them doing.. ), even with Rescue or H.Touch.. ? I'm baffled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not that I don't want to acknowledge a class-wide problem.. I simply don't see this issue. I guess I'll chalk it up to different playstyles or somesuch, and continue regularly tanking in Halls of Fate, etc., without having any compulsion to complain on the forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum up my personal experience: " Shadowknights still don't have an easy time of maintaining aggro. compared to the fire-and-forget pure melee tanks, and we could use some heavier forms of hate acquisition, but if we don't get it anytime soon, I'll be fine. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heck, up until a little while ago, I didn't even have the single-target taunt at a level above Adept 1, and my Rescue is still at Apprentice II. ( No kidding. ) </DIV>

[ssythe]

I honestly,honestly for the life of me dont understand why people try to one up folks and deny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like this.Then people wonder why stuff diesnt get taken care of.Really sad

[Thronk]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=2>Seems to me that part of any agro problem is that the entire Insidious Promise line of single target taunts is pretty useless.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Insidious Promise (Adept III)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Power: 50</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Casting: 0.2 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Recovery: 0.5 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Recast: 8.0 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Duration: 9.0 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Range: Up to 15.0 meters</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Resistability: 40% Harder</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Level:<FONT color=#66ff00> <STRONG>59</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Effect</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Increases threat to target by 739-903 instantly and by 49-60 every 3 seconds thereafter</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Inflicts 84-103 disease damage on target every 3 seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>(best case hate gain is 1,083)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=2>Now compare that with....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Goading Gesture</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Power: 59</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Casting: 0.2 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Recovery: 0.5 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Recast: 8.0 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Range: Up to 10.0 meters</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Resistability: 26% Harder</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Level:<FONT color=#66ff00> <STRONG>20</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Effect</FONT></DIV> <DIV> Increases threat to target by 926-1,131</DIV> <DIV> 10% chance to apply Goading Gesture on termination</DIV> <DIV>   Increases threat to target by 926-1,131</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(best case hate gain is 2,262)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Sadly these spells share the same reuse timer.</STRONG></FONT>  <FONT color=#ffff00>Why SOE would have the Splitpaw expansion spell share the reuse timer with our single target taunt line is beyond me but it pretty much invalidates the entire series.  The only real benefit to Insidious Promise is the improved resistability at adept III but frankly I rarely get a resist with Goading Gesture.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Torbas]

<div></div>Ummm... The splitpaw taunt is not good... the 10% chance for double hate is not reliable.  The law of large numbers will tell you that, on average, the spell generates ~130 more hate.  Furthermore, the rare instances that is does fire are rarely the times you need it.Playing as an inquisitor who often groups with an SK, a Warden, and a wizard, I've never seen any problem with aggro loss.  In fact, the only tanks I really ever see losing aggro are brawlers.  Believe it or not, however, sometimes things go wrong.  Often it is not the fault of raw math, but of individual playstyles.  Tanks have a responsibility to keep aggro, yes, but wizards have a responsibility not to grab aggro.  If a DPS class cannot adjust to his tank's hategain abilities, whose fault is it? Yeah, yeah, I know. Sony's.The fact of the matter is, playing games of skill requires just that -- skill.  It's unfortunate that so many people waste time complaining about their aggro abilities, instead of trying to hone their aggro skills.Oh, and Ssythe? Instead of repeating over and over again how "sad" it is that everyone doesn't take your viewpoint, why don't you, I don't know, contribute something to the thread? Thanks.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Torbas on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[ssythe]

<DIV>Funny how another class is coming here to start a flame war.Torbas ever heard of the words "get bent"?Suggest u go do it k thnx.As for skill**  /rolls eyes I talk with other sk's and even group with them and usually its it or miss depending on groups(be it class,players themselves) and its the same deal.Ive heard all kinds of things from tanking with a symbol(which doesnt sit well with me),to trying to get my agi/Avoidance low so i get hit more which is "not right".So its not like i dont research this stuff.I play prob 6hours and day and usually run all of the kos instances for the most part every day pending lockouts etc.So i know which classes on average give us problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S come strong or dont come at all in which case keep ur nose in the inq threads champ:p</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<P>To start with, Nic, if you're rolling with just adept 1 taunts with an App 2 rescue, then how can you truly hold agro? The only way I see it, your DPS are rolling with app2 attacks and it's taking you far too long to kill the mobs in general. I said OVERPOWERED DPS classes. The assassins have a ton of deagro capability ty. A buff they throw on you to transfer their agro to you plus several other deagros that they can throw out there. The warlock, yeah, he has to be rolling with app 2's because those [Removed for Content] can peel agro off of any tank with one spell. The issue with this class is hate and my problem was comming from the loss of agro management after the past few LU. As I stated before pal, they patched the server and my agro management is back for some reason. TY for attempting to imply that I don't know how to play my class. =) When I see you rolling with a group that can 4 to 5 man nest in less than 15 min, then I'll listen to you talk.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now, for the inquisitor.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Ummm... The splitpaw taunt is not good... the 10% chance for double hate is not reliable.  The law of large numbers will tell you that, on average, the spell generates ~130 more hate.  Furthermore, the rare instances that is does fire are rarely the times you need it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>The splitpaw taunt is a slight bit better than our adpet 3 single target taunt with the posibility of procing the double taunt. Don't have it personally, but I have seen it in action. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Playing as an inquisitor who often groups with an SK, a Warden, and a wizard, I've never seen any problem with aggro loss.  In fact, the only tanks I really ever see losing aggro are brawlers</FONT>.</P> <P>Then you haven't truly seen your DPS open up quite yet. My wizzy buddy will even admit that he can't open up with any tank short of amends and some good luck. I can hold agro off of him unless he starts to use any of his decent size attacks and as I stated before, this thread was about the agro management loss since the last 2 LU. To me it was the game mechanics that were screwed up and I was wanting to know if it was just me or if other SK's were experiencing this. I spoke with several of our guild tanks and they even admitted that they were having trouble holding agro at times. Oh, and btw, brawlers should not have trouble with single target mobs as their single target DPS is more than enough to hold agro. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Believe it or not, however, sometimes things go wrong.  Often it is not the fault of raw math, but of individual playstyles.  Tanks have a responsibility to keep aggro, yes, but wizards have a responsibility not to grab aggro.  If a DPS class cannot adjust to his tank's hategain abilities, whose fault is it? Yeah, yeah, I know. Sony's. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>I will state once again, this was situational and I was comming to the boards to see if this was only being experienced by myself or if others were having the same issues. I usually don't have to difficult of a time with agro if the ppl in my group understand the agro management of HoT. To state that ppl blame Sony for their lack of skill could seriously be insulting to some ppl. There are mechanics in this game that could use some work as this game is not perfect. If you truly believe it is, then I want you to go talk to all of the Inquisitors that feel their class is gimped because SoE put more time and effort into the Templar class and not the Inquisitor class. Talk to all of those healers that feel they are not good enough for MT groups on raids because SoE didn't truly balance the 2 classes.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The fact of the matter is, playing games of skill requires just that -- skill.  It's unfortunate that so many people waste time complaining about their aggro abilities, instead of trying to hone their aggro skills. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>Have played through every nerf that SoE has ever thrown at this class and defied the impossibilities ty. I have never come to these boards to complain about agro control throughout my time playing this class untill now and I did because I was concerned when my only fail safe methods of pulling agro didn't work on a healer. What do you truly know about this class? What do you know about agro management with tanks? What is your experience in raiding, as a tank? In grouping, as a tank? Exactly what can you tell me to do differently  than what I do on a regular basis, as a tank? Good answer. What I expected from someone with an ego.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh, and Ssythe? Instead of repeating over and over again how "sad" it is that everyone doesn't take your viewpoint, why don't you, I don't know, contribute something to the thread? Thanks. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>I have actually grouped with this individual and know that they are a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine tank ty. He/she has an opinion based on the mechanics of this class and expressed it. He/she has contributed ingame as well as on the boards unlike someone comming from a class that truly knows nothing about agro management and attempting to start up flame wars. How would you like it if all of the SK's here, excluding myself because I have a healer alt, came to the healer boards after a nerf on your class and tell you that you suck and can't play your class? You would be furious would you not? </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>Please, before you come to the boards and spew your garbage sit back and ponder before you let lose with nimble fingers.</FONT></FONT></P>

[Torbas]

Garbage?  This is why I usually steer clear of the forums with all my might.  Nevertheless, I have yet to see anyone besides Nic actually suggest a tactic for keeping aggro.  I guess I just can't stand whiners.<div></div>

[Nicholai24]

<DIV>Gosh, Sara, you seem rather defensive. Like I said earlier, I'm declaring my own personal experience with aggro. management. You can rest assured that, had I felt the need to insult you, I would've come right out with it, rather than making vague attempts to allude to your incompetence. I could have hardly made such an implication about your skill in a situation like this, because it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to mash a pair of side-by-side macros. now and then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a message board forum about pretending to be an evil guy in armor. Don't take yourself so seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the issue's been resolved - I never noticed, because I never even experienced any such 'issue' to begin with - there's no more to be said about it, I suppose. As for steamrolling stuff like the Nest and HoF in fifteen minutes, congratulations. You either ' roll ' with several exceptionally equipped DPS classes who burn their little hearts out to maintain that kind of kill-per-minute ratio in a zone of that tier, or else you've found some means by which to rapid-fire PTouch. And as for the other comment about how ' only one class ' makes the fellow feel safe about unloading his nukes at maximum burn, then I still fail to see how it's an issue. If Guardians or Berserkers aren't one of the ones who can make a nuker feel safe, how come they're not ranting about the same thing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the Inquisitor said, it's the responsibility of the DPS to keep themselves in control. No tank in the GAME can pull aggro. off of a Warlock who spams every nuke as soon as they load, and even if they could, it wouldn't be efficient. You group with people who are so well-geared and spelled that they've forgotten how to keep themselves in check.. No DPS class was ever intended to be able to unleash the full force of their attacks in a grouping situation, with only the tank being responsible for somehow out-taunting 1500+ DPS. This was the same issue in EQI, until the advent of chainable aggro-reducers like FD and Concussion allowed the DPS classes to ditch their generated hate. Even so, I'll tell you, from the perspective of a necromancer keyed for the highest end zones in EQI to date, if I stood back and spammed all of my DoTs without pause or FD, even if I waited until a RAID encounter was down by 20% health, I'd have aggro. before it reached 75%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's not going to be a fix to taunts any time soon, because there's not a problem with taunts. We manage aggro. differently. We're effective at it if we're played the right way. I'm not the only shadowknight who agrees, either. I'm having an easy time of it at 70, and while I'm well-equipped, I'm far from spectacular in terms of spells and gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your group won't adjust themselves to their tank's ability, find a new one. If you don't like your taunting power ( and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the power of our aggro. output ), have fun with some other, easier tank.</DIV>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Garbage?  This is why I usually steer clear of the forums with all my might.  Nevertheless, I have yet to see anyone besides Nic actually suggest a tactic for keeping aggro.  I guess I just can't stand whiners.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=19439" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=19439</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Continue to read the fourms before you make assumptions. I have given advice to more ppl than you could imagine in and out of game. As far as being a whinner? My OP, as I stated a few times (I guess some ppl are subjective to the information that they wish to take in), was an issue that I was having after the past few LU. Unless you can seriously offer some sort of constructive logic, I suggest you stay off of the SK boards. You have no idea of the isses this class truly has with raiding/grouping. Toughest class in the game to hold agro with, that's why I chose the class initially. I like the thought of the challenge and loved the possibility of the RP aspect behind the class itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Gosh, Sara, you seem rather defensive. Like I said earlier, I'm declaring my own personal experience with aggro. management. You can rest assured that, had I felt the need to insult you, I would've come right out with it, rather than making vague attempts to allude to your incompetence. I could have hardly made such an implication about your skill in a situation like this, because it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to mash a pair of side-by-side macros. now and then.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are correct, it do not take any type of extreme intellegence to spam taunts, but it does take skill to hold agro  with this class. The combo of Hate Over Time with DPS can be a bit tricky if you don't watch your group. Hey, what would I know with such "incompetence" right? heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>This is a message board forum about pretending to be an evil guy in armor. Don't take yourself so seriously.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>haha, ok, that's funny</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If the issue's been resolved - I never noticed, because I never even experienced any such 'issue' to begin with - there's no more to be said about it, I suppose. As for steamrolling stuff like the Nest and HoF in fifteen minutes, congratulations. You either ' roll ' with several exceptionally equipped DPS classes who burn their little hearts out to maintain that kind of kill-per-minute ratio in a zone of that tier, or else you've found some means by which to rapid-fire PTouch. And as for the other comment about how ' only one class ' makes the fellow feel safe about unloading his nukes at maximum burn, then I still fail to see how it's an issue. If Guardians or Berserkers aren't one of the ones who can make a nuker feel safe, how come they're not ranting about the same thing?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, to start with, yes, I "roll" with some pretty overpowered DPS. But, these ppl know exactly how to play their class. One of my buddies, my wizzy buddy to be exact, has played a wizzy since launch and played one in EQ1 as well. As far as your incensuation that I said only one class "makees the fellow fell safe", incorrect. My statement was geared towards an ability that pallies get to compensate for their lack of agro management. A DPS class can still pull agro if they unload from begining to end of a fight even with amends. Wether you would seriously like to admit it or not man, this class has the lowest hate gain of all of the tanks. You made a commen on a previous post that stated that I wait untill 50% of the mobs health; that was a hypothetical statement that I had made. My group allows me what I ask for in a group, which is 5-8 seconds for my HoT to work its magic. BTW, have you ever went to the warrior boards? O_o</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>As the Inquisitor said, it's the responsibility of the DPS to keep themselves in control. No tank in the GAME can pull aggro. off of a Warlock who spams every nuke as soon as they load, and even if they could, it wouldn't be efficient. You group with people who are so well-geared and spelled that they've forgotten how to keep themselves in check.. No DPS class was ever intended to be able to unleash the full force of their attacks in a grouping situation, with only the tank being responsible for somehow out-taunting 1500+ DPS. This was the same issue in EQI, until the advent of chainable aggro-reducers like FD and Concussion allowed the DPS classes to ditch their generated hate. Even so, I'll tell you, from the perspective of a necromancer keyed for the highest end zones in EQI to date, if I stood back and spammed all of my DoTs without pause or FD, even if I waited until a RAID encounter was down by 20% health, I'd have aggro. before it reached 75%.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, maybe you weren't witnessing it yourself due to not paying that much attention to it, but I'm sure your group may have when they had to either wait to start their attacks or having to burn a little slower. Maybe it was just a select few of us that were witnessing it, or hell, maybe it was just my server. The concern was there, and not just from myself. Other tanks that I spoke with were having similar issues for a few days after the last LU, but I had started to notice it after the prior expansion. Probably because I test everything about the classes that I play. For instance, did you realize that the intercept lines were unmitigated? I didn't untill I read a guardian post about it. I performed several test including one on myself at one of my last raids where a 1-2K auto attack from a mob turned to 12K for me when I intercepted the MT. I'm glad that you understand agro control from EQ1 and understand that the DPS classes are given better tools here to maintain their agro. It would give you a better comprehension about agro management ESPECIALLY plaing a SK. With that in mind, how can you discredit an issue with agro control? Do you believe that I am the only SK that feels there is a lack of agro management? Why do you think there are so many posts about it? Why do you see SK's in cloth armor in raids? Why else would a tank be wearing a robe and not worrying about picking up agro if the MT were to fall? There IS an issue, but my OP issue has been resolved reguardless. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>There's not going to be a fix to taunts any time soon, because there's not a problem with taunts. We manage aggro. differently. We're effective at it if we're played the right way. I'm not the only shadowknight who agrees, either. I'm having an easy time of it at 70, and while I'm well-equipped, I'm far from spectacular in terms of spells and gear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There needs to be wether you believe so or not. We may be slightly effecive in the proper situations, but how many ppl do you think are really going to find grouping with a SK desierable if they have to wait for the SK to regain power, hold off for casting even a small nuke or CA and have to watch the SK lose agro constantly despite the best efforts of the DPS and the SK to keep the mob kicking the SK's teeth in. I'm not the best equiped SK by far, but I do know how to play my class and I do see issues considering we are the lowest of all of the plate tanks for agro management WITHOUT a truly defined purpose as a class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If your group won't adjust themselves to their tank's ability, find a new one. If you don't like your taunting power ( and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the power of our aggro. output ), have fun with some other, easier tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ppl that I group with are some of the best players that I have seen in the game thus far and they know how to adjust. When even they notice a difference with my agro management, there is something wrong. I do not want to play another tanking class because I love my SK. I don't care if it is more challenging because that was what I wanted when I started the toon. My OP was a concern that I saw with our agro management deminishing with each LU and it seems that the game mechanice are fixed at the moment. Tanking in this game is not the easiest job in a group/raid by far. It is the tanks job to hold the agro with the DPS making sure that they do not generate enough hate to override the taunting capabilities of the tank in question.  But hey, what do I know right?</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nicholai24]

<DIV> " Tanking in this game is not the easiest job in a group/raid by far. It is the tanks job to hold the agro with the DPS making sure that they do not generate enough hate to override the taunting capabilities of the tank in question.  But hey, what do I know right? "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If people in your group [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because they have to hold off for the three seconds it takes to land a Heroic Op. and a few taunts and a shield bash, they're impatience isn't a problem I'd be concerned with. I'd just switch to Level 20 taunts for awhile and go AFK unannounced until debt bars and armor bills got the better of them, and they reconsidered their judgement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying there wasn't an issue. I'm saying I never encountered a problem after that LU, and I'm still not experiencing any difference in my abilities to hold aggro. I don't burn my manabar down at all in order to maintain aggro., unless I start going AE-happy for awhile. I never tank in Offensive unless the stuff is trivial. I frequently get invited to groups, because a shadowknight's ability to self-heal has, in my experience, made me a more desireable tank in a group. My healers never run out of power. On raids, I've MT'd now and then, and if I'm not MT'ing I can OT, and if I'm not OT'ing, I can hide in a corner somewhere and pretend I'm at the keyboard to get raid attendance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do we see shadowknights in cloth armor? Because it's fun, I guess? I have my own set of cloth armor for when I don't feel like having to spam combat arts on raids, or when I'm not in the mood to tank in a group. Shadowknights have no clearly defined 'use' in a raid? Are you kidding me? We can heal people, DPS, tank, and debuff. Stop crying. We're the most versatile tank in the game, if not the most versatile class. With AA's in the Agility and Intel. line, and a few in Sta. for H-Ground, I'm a beast on the battlefield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason there is such a feeling of inadequacy in some shadowknights is because they spend too much time listening to the complaints of others. Threads like these serve to perpetuate those feelings of inadequacy. If people would stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing long enough to see that shadowknights as a CLASS are in one of THE best positions in terms of power level, they'd be content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead, they write essays about how it's harder to taunt than a berserker. Boo-freakin'-Hoo. Sure would be nice to launch a single CA, turn on autoattack, and watch some TV like a berserker can, but I wouldn't trade aggro. control for being able to mimic almost any category of character in the entire damned game. Shadowknights have never been a fire-and-forget class, although I bet that if there was an option to reroll your character as your own dumbfire pet, half of the sources of complaints in our community would vanish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If my warlock buddy is unhappy that he has to wait a second before he nukes, I don't really care. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being a shadowknight means one thing: Fun for me, and not for you.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <DIV> " Tanking in this game is not the easiest job in a group/raid by far. It is the tanks job to hold the agro with the DPS making sure that they do not generate enough hate to override the taunting capabilities of the tank in question.  But hey, what do I know right? "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If people in your group [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because they have to hold off for the three seconds it takes to land a Heroic Op. and a few taunts and a shield bash, they're impatience isn't a problem I'd be concerned with. I'd just switch to Level 20 taunts for awhile and go AFK unannounced until debt bars and armor bills got the better of them, and they reconsidered their judgement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you do realize if you did that and I was in your group I would just evac you to the entrance so you dont get afk xp or loot and proceed to do the zone without you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>(yes I'm the wizard naldir is referring to and with a healer I can duo any instance in t7) </P>

[Kelkirra]

<P>Wow, and the personal attack ensues. If you believe you're such a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine tank, then I would LOVE to see  you in my raids against the harder bosses. Here's a mob for you, Harla Dar. You show me one SK that can out tank that mob compared to a guardian and I'll give you a fregging cookie.</P> <P>I guess I have to spell it out for the illeriate, MY ORGIONAL POST WAS ABOUT AN ISSUE AFTER THE LAST FEW LU. Guess you might be able to see that now. The class in genereal, as all classes, has a few issues. If you really believe that I would trade my SK out for a warrior, you're out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mind. I ENJOY the challenge of agro management. But the facts still remain, there are very few mobs that SK's will hold up against better than the other plate classes. Generalized instances are fine. Hell, I'm chosen a lot of the times over the warriors and pallies in my guild because I can run through these instances in record time with minimial deaths.</P> <P>This class is fun for me. I love my SK but would like to see a slight improment with the hate generation. You're a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fool if you believe that you can seriously take the hits better than a warrior in a raid and those seconds that you would waste to obtain agro on the mob while the healers kept you alive? Yeah, those can be the seconds that would have mattered in the end for success or failure.</P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Instead, they write essays about how it's harder to taunt than a berserker. Boo-freakin'-Hoo. Sure would be nice to launch a single CA, turn on autoattack, and watch some TV like a berserker can, but I wouldn't trade aggro.</FONT></P> <P>I would not trade the agro capabilities either and your assumption that I would is rather insulting. I tried to play a guardian a while back, got the toon to almost 30 and deleted it because it was boring as hell. I like the work, I like the challenge but I would like to see long time issues fixed.  SK's WILL use more power than any other tanking class due to the agro management of DPS, and in that reguard we should have a higher mana pool to compensate for it. We don't, base warrior vs. base crusader=1K extra HP for the warrior and 150 mana for the crusader.</P> <P>Obviously you don't get the issue that I was attempting to consult the public about and have now turned to blatent attacks on me for it. Glad I don't group with you is all I can say. Enjoy your fictionial world where you are the perfect tank man. In reality, we'll work on the issues that happen when you decide to daze off.</P>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Nicholai24 wrote: </FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00> " Tanking in this game is not the easiest job in a group/raid by far. It is the tanks job to hold the agro with the DPS making sure that they do not generate enough hate to override the taunting capabilities of the tank in question.  But hey, what do I know right? "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If people in your group [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because they have to hold off for the three seconds it takes to land a Heroic Op. and a few taunts and a shield bash, they're impatience isn't a problem I'd be concerned with. I'd just switch to Level 20 taunts for awhile and go AFK unannounced until debt bars and armor bills got the better of them, and they reconsidered their judgement.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>you do realize if you did that and I was in your group I would just evac you to the entrance so you dont get afk xp or loot and proceed to do the zone without you. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>(yes I'm the wizard naldir is referring to and with a healer I can duo any instance in t7)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>/wave</P> <P>Sup bro =)</P></DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sarasoon wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>/wave</P> <P>Sup bro =)</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/waves back</P> <P>it appears ignorance follows us both around on these forums.</P>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>/nod</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check out the posts on the guard boards that i have been on. There are certian ppl that just don't understand the true game mechanics. =/ Guards need more DPS, sheesh. Next they'll be asking for free pie or something. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah, and I don't play a SK or anything, just my own dellusion I guess. Never tanked epics or OT epics or run instances or even tanked for that matter. SK's are healers last I checked <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sarasoon on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

[Nicholai24]

<P>Harla'Dar is easily SK tankable. Burn some emergency aggro. spells, and you're perfectly fine. I've seen an SK tank her. I could too, with a little more equipment. I like how you read a personal attack in about every point I make, including the ones where I didn't even intend one. I thought I made the couple I did bother to make reasonably obvious. Our need for more mana is laughable -- I can count the number of times I've run OOM tanking on one hand. We have a mana-drain, FT items, and groupmates who can increase power regen. We're not bad off at all, even if we are at the bottom of the totem pole in terms of snap aggro.</P> <P>I'll say it one more time -- You can't compare SK taunts with other forms of taunt. Comparing them to 'serker or paladin taunts which operate on completely different principles is like comparing apples to oranges.</P> <P>You want to make aggro. management easier. I'm saying it's not hard at all, no matter what the circumstance happens to be, sans the occasional suicidal overnuking warlock or wizard. If I'm not having problems holding aggro., you shouldn't be. Not a personal attack, seeing as how you seem to take any form of disagreement as a slight to your E-honor. What a joke.</P>

[Fistantantilus]

The point is, some wizards and warlocks pride themselves in nuking their brains out.  They have the tools to do that. My question is what tools do we have to counter that instead of telling them, could you please wait for me for 5 seconds to finish this HO ?I do not want to tell ppl to hold their damage. I was in vaults last night with a pickup group. Great group. No aggro transfer on me, just me and my taunts.The warlock was doing insane damage and I mean it. Last mob I had to fd him and use rescue the two times he got aggro. He did not die we killed the thing. But he got aggro twice. And that is bad feng shui for my ego. I do not like ppl getting aggro when I tank. And yes I use HOs, thought that was obvious. And my taunts are Master or Adept III. The point is you should have enough aggro building to compensate with dps classes doing their maximum dps. That is what was the case with sks in eq1. Yaya maybe I live in the past but, the having to work hard to keep aggro as an sk it is the thing that bothers me most. More than the lack of my pre-nerf CoS or the real fd (those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] brawlers have).<div></div>

[clamdiper]

Face facts that depending on the experience of the classes in groups or raids you’re in SK’s can or can’t tank. If you have experienced players in a raid who know how to either transfer their agro, as they should, or when to burn a mob down keeping agro isn’t an issue. BUT in these days of AA points making some folks Critical Crazy, it has become a bit tougher from sure. I’ve seen it myself.All in all an SK is a viable tank, though I personally think it best to have a raid balanced out by all classes to be successful, and that means having a guardian or a berserker in the meat-shield role with SK’s and Pally’s playing in the support tank role (picking up adds and such).There isn’t a beast we can’t tank if need be, but that isn’t per say using our abilities properly either.<div></div>

[Kelkirra]

<P>It is not a matter of comparing the TYPE of hate generation to that of a different class. I'm not that moronic my friend. The fact remains that our hate generation is lesser in comparision to the other classes. We have one major advantage over particular type of mobs. Those with Memwipe. The HoT will tick during the memwipe putting us at the top of the hate list even if our taunts are not up at that moment, unlike the warriror or brawler class. </P> <P>To say that our power pool IS where it is supposed to be is a joke.Unless you consider a 1K to 150 point difference in HP/mana pool balanced especially with our power consumption rate. But hey, what do I know. I'm not going to spend my time in a flame war with someone over their opinion based information when facts have been presented by not just myself.</P> <P>We are only viable tanks under the right circumstances and even then we are not considered. When you see most guilds using a SK for their raid MT I'll then close my mouth. As of now, I only know of a few guilds that even use SK's as tanks and only one of them uses their SK as their MT for everything. Not saying that we can't be good tanks or that agro control is impossible, but that we are not considered MT's and our agro control needs looking into with the current game mechanics.</P>

[ssythe]

Learn how to play ur class!!

[ssythe]

sorry naldir figure id just post that before some1 else tried to:p LoL

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>=)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not that I truly care, anyone can post whatever personal attack at me that they would like. I know how to play my class as I am chosen over a lot of other tanks for instances <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. This is a good class that just needs a little love from those that don't like to give it to us. =) BTW, any particular reason you're unguilded?</DIV>

[ssythe]

actually had a couple guilds trying to recruit me(omg i need to learn to play my class!) I then settled on LoTM but for 1 reason or another we couldnt hook up so withdrew.I reopened my eq1 acct to get my raiding fix for a bit(Take some time off and shes outdated now<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> till i decide what i wanna do.Im also thinkin about giving a pvp server a shot although i have no doubts ill prob have my butt handed to me for awhile since i dont have much exp in that area.

[Kelkirra]

<P>PvP is ok, I had an assassin on the vox server. Got bored with it pretty quick though. The goody side enjoys ganging up on the baddies. 24 vs. 1. I love a good fight but that just got out of hand. All I ever did was solo, and after soloing a majority of 70 lvls I'm pretty sick of it. Lords is a pretty decent guild but my old guild leader is there so I have a few mixed feelings there. If you're ever interested, you can check my guild out. I'm the only SK main in our guild though .=/  You've raided with us before, even though I don't know how to play my class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, so you know we're not that lame. hehe</P>

[Lord Montague]

<P>Getting back to the OP a bit, I'm going to bring in some observations of my own that I found quite fascinating.  I play numerous alts, and one that I've been leveling quite a bit lately has been the "problem stepchild" of the DPS classes - the Warlock.  Now, I was grouped up with a Shadowknight tanking finishing up AQ6 when we had a nasty bit of adds - two groups of deathbloom treants.  Ok, instinct tells you - KILL IT!  But rather than panicing I kept to what I know and especially the way aggro works on a Shadowknight - and I opened up with Concussive (aggro reducer) followed by my encounter AE disease/poison debuff.  Then I proceeded to start casting DoTs to give the tank more time to build aggro.  Once this was done (my guess - 15 seconds into the battle) I unleashed the full fury of my warlock's powers - Gas Cloud (Adept III), Negative Absolution (Master I), Dark Distortion (Master II).  The aggro did not even flinch and I sat back in my chair grinning as I watched treants drop left and right.</P> <P>Not sure how well it applies to the higher levels, but I will say that I think that the key was the disease/poison debuff, since the success of our attacks and taunts depends so greatly on disease resistance.  It is food for thought, at any rate.</P><p>Message Edited by Lord Montague on <span class=date_text>05-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lord Montague wrote:<BR> <P>Getting back to the OP a bit, I'm going to bring in some observations of my own that I found quite fascinating.  I play numerous alts, and one that I've been leveling quite a bit lately has been the "problem stepchild" of the DPS classes - the Warlock.  Now, I was grouped up with a Shadowknight tanking finishing up AQ6 when we had a nasty bit of adds - two groups of deathbloom treants.  Ok, instinct tells you - KILL IT!  But rather than panicing I kept to what I know and especially the way aggro works on a Shadowknight - and I opened up with Concussive (aggro reducer) followed by my encounter AE disease/poison debuff.  Then I proceeded to start casting DoTs to give the tank more time to build aggro.  Once this was done (my guess - 15 seconds into the battle) I unleashed the full fury of my warlock's powers - Gas Cloud (Adept III), Negative Absolution (Master I), Dark Distortion (Master II).  The aggro did not even flinch and I sat back in my chair grinning as I watched treants drop left and right.</P> <P>Not sure how well it applies to the higher levels, but I will say that I think that the key was the disease/poison debuff, since the success of our attacks and taunts depends so greatly on disease resistance.  It is food for thought, at any rate.</P> <P>Message Edited by Lord Montague on <SPAN class=date_text>05-15-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>just so your aware concussive only affects one target in an encounter.  It will not affect targets in aoe or in the encounter just the one you have targeted, or if its an out of encounter aoe its random who it will affect.</P> <P>something to remember going forward with your warlock</P>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>just so your aware concussive only affects one target in an encounter.  It will not affect targets in aoe or in the encounter just the one you have targeted, or if its an out of encounter aoe its random who it will affect.</P> <P>something to remember going forward with your warlock</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I am fully aware of that.  That's why I start slow and only use single-target DoTs at the beginning.  It's all about utilizing the debuffs and allowing the shadowknight to use their innate hate generation.  And I'm certain that different fighter types will take different tactics. <P>Some additional observations I made last night - grouped with another shadowknight in Edgewater drains.  He was very poorly equipped and I had a lot of misgivings about him (some of his stuff was just outright vendor trash).  And yes, he had aggro problems but it wasn't my warlock that was drawing the aggro but the healer.  I stuck to my usual tactics, but I did pull aggro a couple of times - at least they were nearly dead the times that I did.  Ok, so that told me maybe his taunts were a bit weak so I held back a little more and was fine again.  Consistently though, the healer was pulling aggro so we asked him what his taunts were at and he said App II, giving the lame excuse that the low levels go by so fast that it wasn't worth upgrading.  Add to this that he kept on doing out-of-encounter AE attacks left and right, which if we all know Edgewater that's just asking for trouble.  Yes, we had a lot of senseless adds forcing us all to work harder than necessary.  *shakes his head*  Well, if he knew that he was grouped with someone who's main is a level 70 shadowknight, he should've been outright emberassed.  I could understand if he was having trouble finding things on the market but it sounded like he outright didn't look at all.  How can you expect to take on even moderately difficult things at your level if your equipment is crap, your skills are weak, and you lack the sense to avoid unnecessary adds?  But...I think we already know the answer to that question.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Lord Montague on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:35 AM</span>

[colddecki]

I'm hung up on something said earlier...  I've been lurking a LOT on the SK boards, and my playing has gone up exponentially...  Which makes me happy.  What I saw was a mention of disease debuffs, and this is something I'd like to play around with...  Now for the area I haven't explored at all... how does one get disease debuffs?  Is this a poison or something?  Is it an ability that another class has, and if so, which?Last night, agro got pulled off of me a couple of times towards the end of the fight (which bothered me immensly)  No one died, but it sucked that I looked a little silly.  If I could get someone, or if I could do it myself, to debuff disease resist, now we're talking!  If it's a poison (something I've never even looked into) that can be used by the rogues... then I'll carry that shtuff around and hand it out as a party favor.  Anything that helps me become better is good.Oh, and if someone wants to outline their favorite group composition... that'd be cool...  Something like SK, 2 healers, 2 rogues and a mage would be perfect...<div></div>

[Lord Montague]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> colddecking wrote:<BR><BR>Now for the area I haven't explored at all... how does one get disease debuffs?  Is this a poison or something?  Is it an ability that another class has, and if so, which?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As far as our own abilities, our group AE taunt line is also a disease debuff, and it is a significant one.  We also have a single-target WIS debuff (part of the Cleave line), which affects all resists including disease.</P> <P>Warlocks get a group AE disease/poison debuff that they can throw in on top of that.</P> <P>Defilers also get a disease/poison debuff, I think, but it's been a while since I played mine so I'd have to go back to get the specifics on it.  They also get a debuff that decreases all stats by a certain percentage, which of course includes WIS which equals more of a debuff.</P> <P>And then there are Brigands, which I don't know exactly what they have as I don't play one (yet), but I've heard of them having a debuff that also helps our disease damage do more (some SK's have touted some very high HT numbers while a Brigand's debuffing skills were in play).</P>

[Kelkirra]

<DIV>The AoE taunt of the SK is a disease debuff itself. Everytime you taunt, you decrease the mobs disease resistance. I do not know any posioins off of the top of my head that do this, but I'm sure they are out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually roll with a group like this:</DIV> <DIV>SK/Templar/Fury or Warden/Wizzy/Necro/Monk or other tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This group works great for HoF and any other instance that I run at night. A good group make-up for lower lvls can either consist of ^ or this one:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK/Healer/Coercer or Dirge/3 DPS classes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will work good with the increased hate from the coercer or dirge so that the DPS classes can unload. A trouby in place of the coercer or dirge also seems to work pretty well as they can take the hate away from the rest of the group. =)</DIV>