SK Bugs and spell ugrades

[Broxus]

<div><p>Firstly I just want to say that death march is broken atm.  Half the time i Kill a Mob it doesnt even give the benifits it suppose to.  Secondly the 15sec timer is way way to fast.  Its the fastest 15seconds I've ever seen.  Can someone please look at this and check you watches against it.</p><div> </div><div>Secondly,  Below are three ideas to help SKs out and make them more enjoyable to play some of the things are from EQ1.  There is a reason I didnt play a straight tank i wanted a utility class that can do more than just fight.  I wanted the convience of spells and armor.</div><div> </div><div>1)  Make our FD last for 1 minute.  I have no idea why it only lasts 20 or 30seconds but this is stupid because mobs rarely walk away if you are close to a spawn point.  To be honest I dont think it should wear off at all.  Just like the monk/necro FD they can stay down as long as they like.  We are suppose to be 75% fighter 25% necro but sadly that isnt the case.</div><div> </div><div>2)  Give us invis.  In EQ1 we had it that was the main reason I played the class.  I just think our mage side should give us some more utilty.</div><div> </div><div>3) Make our AOE taunt work across diffrent groups.  It should truely be an AOE taunt not just work against one of the 3 groups attacking us.  If we pull multiples or get adds it sucks because we cant aggro them and people start to die.</div><div> </div><div>4) Please fix Death March and also extend the time after death buff timer to 20 seconds at least.  15 seconds is just to slow by the time we pull a mob and get him to camp after last kill the timer has worn off.  Also, for raids it should work if anyone in the raid kills the mob not just the group the SK is in.  If you did this then you would make SKs a huge raid class and would help us out a lot.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Tell me what you think</div></div>

[Nostarn]

<div>I like the idea of your post, here are my thoughts on your comments:</div><div> </div><div><hr>Broxus wrote:</div><div> </div><div><div> </div><div>1)  Make our FD last for 1 minute.  I have no idea why it only lasts 20 or 30seconds but this is stupid because mobs rarely walk away if you are close to a spawn point.  To be honest I dont think it should wear off at all.  Just like the monk/necro FD they can stay down as long as they like.  We are suppose to be 75% fighter 25% necro but sadly that isnt the case.<font color="#ffff00">I don't think we're too far off the 75/25 that you mention.  I don't think we should have a FD that lasts forever like they do.  The bonus of ours is that we are the only class that can FD ANYONE single target.  Monks get a group FD, but that's it.  Huge utility if you use it right, i'm always using mine to save my [Removed for Content], keep a dps from dying when they pull agro, getting to those pesky cloud stations that just happen to be on the other side of a group of mobs i don't wanna kill.  Ya just gotta be a little creative is all.</font></div><div> </div><div>2)  Give us invis.  In EQ1 we had it that was the main reason I played the class.  I just think our mage side should give us some more utilty.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">We don't need invis, if you use it right, FD works just as well, and go pick up some totems, this isn't EQ1, and even then, if that was the main reason you played the class, then you missed out on a lot brother.</font></div><div> </div><div>3) Make our AOE taunt work across diffrent groups.  It should truely be an AOE taunt not just work against one of the 3 groups attacking us.  If we pull multiples or get adds it sucks because we cant aggro them and people start to die.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Work a little harder.  AOE across groups isn't necessary.  I do think we need stronger Taunts in general, but opening it up to have a complete AOE taunt would be a little strong.  To combat this now, cycle through the mobs in camp, taunting, dmging, as i said before, be a little creative about it.  Another way that will help when you have multiple groups of mobs, use your AOE dmg spells, we get 3 of em, they generate some pretty good agro.</font></div><div> </div><div>4) Please fix Death March and also extend the time after death buff timer to 20 seconds at least.  15 seconds is just to slow by the time we pull a mob and get him to camp after last kill the timer has worn off.  Also, for raids it should work if anyone in the raid kills the mob not just the group the SK is in.  If you did this then you would make SKs a huge raid class and would help us out a lot.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">I agree with ya on this one.  I haven't noticed it but a lot of people have, if DM isn't going off when a mob dies after you or someone in your group killed it, there's something wrong.  I also agree this is way to short of a duration for a spell, even as strong as this one is, with a group of mobs, say 4 or so, the spell only lasts for 1 minute, you get maybe 1-2 mobs that are actually affected by the spell out of the group.  And you'd be pretty hard pressed to get a mob down in 15 seconds, there's just way to short a usability for this spell.  I also agree that it should be across raid, not just ur group.  You don't need to allow the whole raid to get the buff, just somebody on your "team" getting the kill shot should make this go off.  Even in a solid dps group in the raid, there's such a small chance of your group members getting the kill shot, combine that with the short duration and this spell is not even worth keeping up on raids.  Huge potential for this spell if implemented right.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ffffff">I hope i didn't come down too hard on any of your ideas, good thoughts, but we have loads of utility if you just give it a little time and thought before running in and just chain casting your ca's/spells.  I do agree tho that tweaks here and there would definitely help game play and the only way to do that is to get feedback from people.  I hope  more post on the topic.  Keep it coming!</font></div><div> </div></div>

[elciomg]

<div></div>/agree Broxus

[Broxus]

<div></div><div></div><div>in regards to the FD thing.  Yea I dont care if it lasts forever though it would be nice but I think the 1 min timer thing is fair and balanced.  It would definatly help us be a viable back up tank in a raid or MT in a group.  With a skill like this it could help be a form of insurance for everyone if the group is going to wipe.  I just want to have the ability to keep the healer down while we all die in place and the mobs run away.  It already has a healthy recast timer so i dont see why this would be a problem.</div><div> </div><div>Btw does any class have a true AOE taunt?  If not I can handle not having it but if lets say guardians do then we definatly should. </div><p>Message Edited by Broxus on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:50 PM</span></p>

[Diern]

<div></div><p>Invisibility and more specifically my prenerf COS is the main thing I miss with my shadowknight in EQ2 PVP, close second would be shadowstep</p><p>There isnt much Shadow to be found in the shadowknight class these days.</p><p>Im still angry that bruisers got invisibility (correct me if i am wrong) and fear. These fit us more and were features of the EQ1 SK.</p><p>(bring on the this isnt eq1 posts, I dont care the shadowknight class is simply dumbed down in the last 500+ years)</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<div></div><p>1> meh</p><p>2> Invis would be nice, and frankly we deserve it more then a monk who can FD every 12 - 14 secs.  If only we could get Moorguard to play this class.... er I digress.</p><p>3> Would be nice, we don't really need it, AOE spells timed at the right point will act just like the AOE taunt, it will bring the adding mobs to you and then hopefully you can keep them intrested in you while your AOE taunt is coming up and before that wizzard drops a fusion :p.  Guards and Zerkers have an out of encounter AOE taunt btw I think monks do too, however it's not a huge deal.</p><p>4> I think they fixed the bug that when a pet got the kill DM wouldn't kick off.  And I must be one of the only SK's that is fine with the 15 secs.  I find once it goes off, you can chain kill the rest and keep it going easy enuff.  I also tell my group that we're marching, they know at that point to assist me for sure, and drop the biggies after the first mob drops.  This spell is all about the timing, and makes it interesting.  I just wish it was more usefull in raids.</p><p>5> along the lines of invis, I would like to see an invis vs undead, and some undead specefic ablitlies like the days of old.  Lets put some death back into the SK's.</p><p>6> where's our double attacks with 2 handers?</p>

[troodon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Broxus wrote:<div><div>We are suppose to be 75% fighter 25% necro but sadly that isnt the case.<hr></div></div></blockquote><p>This is EQ2, we're 100% Fighter.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>troodon wrote:<div></div><blockquote><div><div>This is EQ2, we're 100% Fighter.</div></div></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Have you done a parse of your damage lately?  We're deffinately not 100% fighter as 100% of our damage isn't even close to being all mele based. 

[Ultimatum]

I agree....if you take 5 seconds to glance at a parse, you will notice that no more than 15% of our total damage is from melee....which makes us 85% caster <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[troodon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>rabid.pooh wrote:<div></div>Have you done a parse of your damage lately?  We're deffinately not 100% fighter as 100% of our damage isn't even close to being all mele based. <hr></blockquote><p>What does that have to do with anything?  A Summoner with a Scout pet does a crap load of melee damage, are they part Scout?  We're Fighters who use spells, not a Fighter/Mage hybrid.  Ignoring certain AAs, our spells are not designed to make us a DPS class as they would if we were a true Mage hybrid, they are only replacements for the melee combat arts of the other Fighter Classes.</p><p>Even with the scrapping of the character progression mechanic we are still solely in the Fighter Archetype.  It's the reason why we get our spells from Alchemists rather than Sages.</p>

[mikeyswizz]

<div></div><div>We are most definetly a warrior necro hybrid</div><p>Message Edited by mikeyswizz on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:58 PM</span></p>

[troodon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikeyswizz wrote:<div></div><div>We are most definetly a warrior necro hybrid<hr></div></blockquote><p>How can you call us a hybrid with a mage class when other Fighters do more damage than us?  That doesn't even make sense.  Unless you're going to call Bruisers a Fighter/Scout hybrid or something</p>

[Ultimatum]

I'm gonna go with the fact that we wear plate and have some pretty potent spells, decent debufs, and a dumfire pet?  Oh, and the fact that we have the potential to out damage mage classes?  yeah...that sounds about right.  Oh wait, I forgot the fact that Disruption and Focus are essential, as well as Int more than Str....and the fact that I have to wear a robe with a detaunt proc to not pull aggro from anyone but a Pally.  As for Bruisers, they either have to be completely on top of their game to out damage us, or you aren't pushing yourself to your full potential as a DPS SK.<div></div>

[mikeyswizz]

<div>Shadowknights are designed to be a necro/warrior hybrid. We get weaker variations of necro spells (dumbfire pet, lifetaps, dots, etc)  Also, desgined to not be able to tank as well as zerkers and gaurdians (warriors). We ARE a hybrid. Just like a paladin is a hybrid of a warrior/cleric.</div>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>troodon wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikeyswizz wrote:<div></div><div>We are most definetly a warrior necro hybrid<hr></div></blockquote><p>How can you call us a hybrid with a mage class when other Fighters do more damage than us?  That doesn't even make sense.  Unless you're going to call Bruisers a Fighter/Scout hybrid or something</p><hr></blockquote>The way I am geared and have my AAs set up, if I want to I can do more damage than any other fighter class out there.Also, the "hybrid" in regards to EQ2 really refers to using both combat arts and spells.  The advantage of having both ranged and close in abilities is offset by the need to have both a high strength and intelligence.  The only two hybrids are bards and crusaders.In EQ2 there really is no "hybrid" in the sense that we are a combination of two existing classes.  We are our own class.  We have our own line of spells and combat arts.  We do things that a Necro or a Mage could never dream of doing and that Fighter classes wish they could do.  We can stand toe to toe with our enemies, protected under our unholy armor and spells and lash out with dots, nukes and lifetaps.  In fact, EQ2 is the first game I have played where a Shadowknight is legitimately it's own class.  I don't have to use another classes spells at a reduced effectiveness or lower level.Monks can heal, safefall, invis and barrage fireballs at their enemies.  Does this mean they are a hybrid fighter/cleric/scout/mage?</span></div>

[troodon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Razerblaze wrote:Oh, and the fact that we have the potential to out damage mage classes? <hr></blockquote><p>Using <strong><em>one </em></strong>of our <strong><em>twenty</em></strong> possible Achievement Abilities, yes we can do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good DPS.  Our class is not defined by that <em>one</em>, <strong>single</strong>, <u>solitary</u> AA; unless you're also going to say that Guardians were designed to use a buckler :smileyhappy:</p><p>The other points you note do not make us a hybrid, they simply mean we use spells; period.  Some SKs wear robes? Big deal anyone can wear robes.  Both Brawlers and Druids wear leather, is that supposed to mean something too?  We have debuffs?  Gosh, so does my Guardian and my Fury.  A Dumfire pet?  Same with Sorcerors, Enchanters, Druids, and I believe Shamans.  Yes, we use Disruption and Focus; this makes us a Mage hybrid the same way it does my Mystic. </p><p>We are Fighters who use spells.  We also happen to have an AA that lets us do a crap load of damage (an AA that I'm inclined to think will be nerfed eventually).  Neither of those things makes us a "hybrid", unless you define hybrid as simply a Fighter who uses spells.  If that's your definition then I've got no argument with you.</p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p></p><hr>mikeyswizz wrote:<p>Shadowknights are designed to be a necro/warrior hybrid</p><hr></blockquote><p>That's simply false.  If you really like I can go waste an hour of my life and dig through the <a href="http://www.eqii.com/" target="_blank">www.eqii.com</a> Moorgard Index and find his old pre-Beta posts about how, because of the archetype system, there are no hybrids in the game.  Here are some I found rather quickly:</p><p>From <a href="http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10467" target="_blank">http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10467</a></p><p>"In our game, any member of an archetype can fulfill their main role in a group as well as any other. They use different styles and skills to accomplish their purpose, but the core ability will always be there. If you need a tank for your party, then any flavor will do, be it monk, paladin, guar-- "</p><p>"<font size="2">All Fighters can do the job of tank equally well. Our entire system is designed around the idea that anyone from a given archetype can fill their main role as well as any other."</font></p>

[rabid.pooh]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>troodon wrote:<div></div><blockquote>What does that have to do with anything?  A Summoner with a Scout pet does a crap load of melee damage, are they part Scout?  We're Fighters who use spells, not a Fighter/Mage hybrid.  Ignoring certain AAs, our spells are not designed to make us a DPS class as they would if we were a true Mage hybrid, they are only replacements for the melee combat arts of the other Fighter Classes.</blockquote><p>Even with the scrapping of the character progression mechanic we are still solely in the Fighter Archetype.  It's the reason why we get our spells from Alchemists rather than Sages.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>No that summoner qualifies as a mage that summoned a pet who he controls, quite the irrelevant leap you made there...</p><p>Open your abilites book.  Hmmm...  we have combat arts and Spells... now go open a zerker/guardian/monk book.  What they got?   Just combat arts.  How curious :smileywink:.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">"<font size="2">All Fighters can do the job of tank equally well. Our entire system is designed around the idea that anyone from a given archetype can fill their main role as well as any other."</font></font>? Bwuahahahahahaha  wake up son your alarm clock is ringing.  SOE said a lot of things at beta, and since then have a lot of design theories that frankly don't come out in wash.  There is never equality, there is never balance, if there was we would all have the same abilities, and simply we don't.  You don't see a monk tanking contested T7 epic x 4 mobs for a reason.</p><p>100% fighter nope, we cast, we're not pure we're tainted <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>But hey, you can go back and read all the irrelevant outdated info posted in beta that you want, for that fact pre LU13 (before they redesigned all the spells/abilities).  Even information posted a week ago can be wrong today.</p><p>Anyways it's symantecs isn't it?  Who cares, doesn't make the class any different and what abilities/spells you choose in the AA path.  You say Tomato I say Tomatoe, but If it looks like a hybrid, builds its stats like a hybrid, and casts like a hybrid, odds are.... "it's a hybrid".</p><p> </p>

[troodon]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>rabid.pooh wrote:<div></div><p>No that summoner qualifies as a mage that summoned a pet who he controls, quite the irrelevant leap you made there...</p><hr></blockquote><p>Your're the one who claimed that classes can be categorized by the type of damage they do.  Ok, how's this for relevant?  Necromancers do the bulk of their damage through their DPS pets, we do ours through spells, ergo we are not Necro hybrids :smileyhappy:</p><blockquote><p></p><hr>Open your abilites book.  Hmmm...  we have combat arts and Spells... now go open a zerker/guardian/monk book.  What they got?   Just combat arts.  How curious :smileywink:.<p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Like I said, if your sole definition of a hybrid is a Fighter with spells then I'm not going to disagree with you.  The OP had a different definition than that, so your point is moot.</p><blockquote><p><font color="#ffff33"></font></p><hr>"<font size="2">All Fighters can do the job of tank equally well. Our entire system is designed around the idea that anyone from a given archetype can fill their main role as well as any other."</font>? Bwuahahahahahaha  wake up son your alarm clock is ringing.  SOE said a lot of things at beta, and since then have a lot of design theories that frankly don't come out in wash.  There is never equality, there is never balance, if there was we would all have the same abilities, and simply we don't.  You don't see a monk tanking contested T7 epic x 4 mobs for a reason.<hr></blockquote><p>I'm well aware of what has changed since before beta, I've been following it for that long.  Regardless of those changes, the Archetype system hasn't been removed.  Fighters are supposed to tank.</p><p>No, I haven't seen a monk tank T7 epic contested.  I don't see your point with that.  Does that mean they aren't 100% fighter either?</p><blockquote><p></p><hr>100% fighter nope, we cast, we're not pure we're tainted <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<hr></blockquote><p>This will be the 4th time I've said it here, if us casting is the only thing that makes us a hybrid then what's the point of the term.</p><blockquote><p></p><hr>Anyways it's symantecs isn't it?  Who cares, doesn't make the class any different and what abilities/spells you choose in the AA path.  You say Tomato I say Tomatoe, but If it looks like a hybrid, builds its stats like a hybrid, and casts like a hybrid, odds are.... "it's a hybrid".<hr></blockquote><p>It is semantics, and I suppose we just have a different definition of a "hybrid".  When I think hybrid, I think mixing roles.  Meaning a hybrid Fighter/Mage would sort of be able to tank and sort of be able to DPS.  This isn't the case with SKs.  A Shadow Knight tank well, very well in some circumstances, but we are nowhere near Mage DPS (again, this is ignoring that sole AA that you cannot define our class by).  So we may have to use Mage stats, and we may cast like a Mage, we do not play anything like a Mage.  To me, that means we are not a hybrid.</p><p>Of course, there are those "battle mages" that seem to have sprung up from the AAs.  They seem to be more in-line with what I'd call a hybrid, but they're freaks :smileytongue:</p><p>Message Edited by troodon on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:09 PM</span></p>

[DMIstar]

<div><div> </div><div><em>1)  Make our FD last for 1 minute.  I have no idea why it only lasts 20 or 30seconds but this is stupid because mobs rarely walk away if you are close to a spawn point.  To be honest I dont think it should wear off at all.  Just like the monk/necro FD they can stay down as long as they like.  We are suppose to be 75% fighter 25% necro but sadly that isnt the case.</em></div><div><em><font color="#cc3366"></font></em> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">I wouldnt Mind them nerfing the Target thing to only us and giveing us unlimted FD spell Timer on it... Though Im to used to the other game with this. The target thing is interesting but i rarely use it for that., What kills me more is when im not in group and need to use the spell at times, It will come up with error stateing i need to target myself in order for it to work, which is a dam pain.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><div><em>2)  Give us invis.  In EQ1 we had it that was the main reason I played the class.  I just think our mage side should give us some more utilty.</em></div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0000">With Totems widely Used, I dont see any thing over powering for them to Mimic Gather Shadows in this game... Remember GS had a random timer, where as how im invising now is static 15min timer. and all for just 2g for 5 invis or can be free if in guild bank ... </font></div><div> </div><div><div><em>3) Make our AOE taunt work across diffrent groups.  It should truely be an AOE taunt not just work against one of the 3 groups attacking us.  If we pull multiples or get adds it sucks because we cant aggro them and people start to die.</em></div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0000">Havent had problems with this as it is now...</font></div><div><font color="#cc0000"></font> </div><div><div><em>4) Please fix Death March and also extend the time after death buff timer to 20 seconds at least.  15 seconds is just to slow by the time we pull a mob and get him to camp after last kill the timer has worn off.  Also, for raids it should work if anyone in the raid kills the mob not just the group the SK is in.  If you did this then you would make SKs a huge raid class and would help us out a lot.</em></div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0000">I agree the spell needs work, Its a very situational spell, for a very short duration.. Most of the time its potential is never realy used.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0000">To answer the other debate going on: Sks Are Part Warrior and Part necromancer, this was the way they where designed and intended to be. even thier current history dictates this. In the previous EQ the Verant Went with Giveing SKs the exact same spells as the necro class, but they upped the lvl for these spells for SKs But everything else remained the same...</font></div><div><font color="#cc0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0000">This ran into, way to many issues with the balance of the class. After Luclin Came out Sony started working on createing New lines of spells directly for the class, this way they can alter and ajust these spells specific for sks. Does this take away the link to SKs and a Necro? No, This just makes it so the SK can be tweaked better for thier class in relation to necro and warriors.. All our spells even in EQ2 Share Necro Qualities and Traits. If we where not part necro we would not have Lifetaps, Death March, Diesies Based Spells, Harm Touch, Tap viens, Sacrement. Vile coil and the list goes on. We would just have some generic based spells that had no relation to any other class. But we are SKs and so we get the glimmer of the aura of what the necros are.</font></div></div></div></div></div>