Heroic instances and the role of the fighter

[gilliax]

Used to be you had casual people that quest, decorate, tradeskill and do solo content. Then you had people that like group content and then you had raiders. Raiders often actually have less over all play time and liked to just login for raids. Right or wrong this is how it was.<br /> <br />Now Daybreak is pushing for raiders to do more heroic content by requiring the gems. Now honestly while this may not be popular with the "I only want to raid" person, it likely is overall good for the game. In theory it should give the non raider population more people to run instances with and get people to play more.<br /> <br />A glaring problem is most raids have a main tank and an off tank, but they have 4 groups that need gems. So if the heroic content requires a tank, you either have half the raid unable to do it or you burn out your tanks forcing them to run double the zones.<br /> <br />In my opinion there are few ways this can be addressed. You let non tanks, tank. By perhaps giving them a defensive stance. Or make the gems heirloom so some one in the group can play an alt tank and not be penalized for helping out. This way they can pass gear and gems to there main and not be missing out. <br /> <br />The other alternative is to again give fighters a viable dps stance. Now I agree perhaps tanks were a bit op and needed to be dialed back a bit. However that really was not the problem. The real issue was they were able to tank in offensive stance with really no problem. So address that, not by nerfing them but add more defensive penalties so they take more damage and offer significantly less threat like reckless stance. If you allow tanks to fill a t1 dps slot then a raid could carry 4 tanks without taking a hit.<br /> <br />I can see that if you allow dps to tank their own heroics, what will likely happen is people will opt for all t1 dps classes to kill as fast as possible. Also down the road powerful dps toon will be able to solo them. So yeah it is a complicated problem but a problem non the less and it needs to be resolved. <br /> <br />I can tell you from experience, requiring raiders to run heroics is a double edged sword. It is not overly popular, Some people on the cusp with time constraints in there playtime get pushed over the edge and end up quitting because they log in to get there heroics done and if they cant get a group they feel frustration, anger and log. Several sessions like that and they throw in the towel. Now I'm not saying don't require them but I am saying it would be in daybreaks interest to make getting heroic groups formed and done easier.<br /> <br />Maybe it is time to revisit the LFG tool lol other games seem to use that to great effect. We had one but it had its problems. It needed to use a gear scoring system and form groups with the correct classes. Imo a fighter, a healer, a bard, a chanter and 2 dps. or something to that effect<br /> <br /> <br />.

[Vogie]

I would love to see Fighters have the ability to dps like actual dps classes. Allowing fighters to do that would liven up the raid groups and allow for heroic groups to be ran. I for one would swap to a fighter class if this were true, I don't have the raid attendance to be a MT or OT but would love to tank for heroics etc if the need would arise.<br />Right now the only class that this would be true for are Monks.

[olleran]

Vogie, monks have had DF nerfed again , however SKs can do more dps than most T1 dps ( like nearly every recent expac )

[Revanu]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Vogie"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Vogie said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525724#post-6525724" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I would love to see Fighters have the ability to dps like actual dps classes. Allowing fighters to do that would liven up the raid groups and allow for heroic groups to be ran. I for one would swap to a fighter class if this were true, I don't have the raid attendance to be a MT or OT but would love to tank for heroics etc if the need would arise.<br />Right now the only class that this would be true for are Monks.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Ya vogie, monks are nerfed. Not even capable anymore

[Vogie]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Revanu"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Revanu said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525786#post-6525786" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Ya vogie, monks are nerfed. Not even capable anymore</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Great guess i'll have to find FOTM #5 . . .

[Vogie]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="olleran"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">olleran said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525781#post-6525781" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Vogie, monks have had DF nerfed again , however SKs can do more dps than most T1 dps ( like nearly every recent expac )</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Because my wallet has limits I haven't been willing to test all Ascensions on my Alt tanks however while I agree with you SK's are strong they aren't in the same boat with Monks atm unless Beta has done something tremendously different with SK's. The only class able to come remotely close to my T1's dps has been a Monk that's all i can say.

[Revanu]

Don’t sleep on inquisitors. We got pro crafting abililties that perfectly transition into the 25th raid slot.

[XustinuS]

As ppl mentioned DF will be nerfed again (35%) so Monks will not be able to dps with that skill only, as they are on PoP.<br />Havent heard anything negative on SK's in the CD. And yes SK's are dpsing as or better than T1 if they know what they are doing <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /><br />Guards are getting "Increased the base damage of profession abilities by 8%." although their role is tanking not dpsing.<br />Other tanks classes are doing dps through Ascensions/combos/VC/thorns and thanks to new fighter rune. As all melee class our auto attack is doing insignificant numbers and CA's are not much useful either, excluding some exceptions. Maybe we should get rid of Dps, MA, Flurry, Haste,Wdb altogether as I dont care for those stats anymore.<br />I believe with the general nerf on Pot to Fervor conversion our taunting/tanking abilities will decrease as taunts dont get any love from fervor. But have not done any heroic content on Beta yet, still working on the sig line when RL lets me.<br />Through Balanced Synergy maybe it was encouraged to give each grp 1 fighter in raids to get extra SDC and ADC but I dont know how much new mobs in CD mitigate those. <br />Letting non tank classes tanking is not a solution imo. Tanks already loose small amounts of mitigation, HP and most importantly Deathsaves when they are on offensive stance so I guess it is enough. Maybe an increase to all taunts sound more reasonable to me since we are loosing half of our pot in CD.<br />Correct me if I am wrong on anything.

[kreather]

So yeah really as a fighter while tanking, I am fine with not topping the parse however taunt hate generation needs to be boosted. ATM most tank hate is generated through DPS. Nerf fighters DPS in "tank stance" to much and good luck holding agro. Even positional snaps grab the mob back but without sufficient hate you will lose it back instantly.

[Earar]

isn't the fighter rune for that ? helping with aggro, help boosting the taunts with damage ?<br /> <br />then as Op said. few tanks (usually 2to 4) but a raid guild is sometimes composed of 5 group (so 30 people)<br /> <br />and don't expect those tanks to run multiple instance. U need to rely on big players with many alts <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

[Revanu]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="XustinuS"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">XustinuS said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525850#post-6525850" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">As ppl mentioned DF will be nerfed again (35%) so Monks will not be able to dps with that skill only, as they are on PoP.<br />Havent heard anything negative on SK's in the CD. And yes SK's are dpsing as or better than T1 if they know what they are doing <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /><br />Guards are getting "Increased the base damage of profession abilities by 8%." although their role is tanking not dpsing.<br />Other tanks classes are doing dps through Ascensions/combos/VC/thorns and thanks to new fighter rune. As all melee class our auto attack is doing insignificant numbers and CA's are not much useful either, excluding some exceptions. Maybe we should get rid of Dps, MA, Flurry, Haste,Wdb altogether as I dont care for those stats anymore.<br />I believe with the general nerf on Pot to Fervor conversion our taunting/tanking abilities will decrease as taunts dont get any love from fervor. But have not done any heroic content on Beta yet, still working on the sig line when RL lets me.<br />Through Balanced Synergy maybe it was encouraged to give each grp 1 fighter in raids to get extra SDC and ADC but I dont know how much new mobs in CD mitigate those. <br />Letting non tank classes tanking is not a solution imo. Tanks already loose small amounts of mitigation, HP and most importantly Deathsaves when they are on offensive stance so I guess it is enough. Maybe an increase to all taunts sound more reasonable to me since we are loosing half of our pot in CD.<br />Correct me if I am wrong on anything.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Monks that currently rely on dragonfire for the overwhelming majority of their dmg are bad monks. At best it’s now 25-30% of a breakdown on live content. It’ll be nerfed by 60% once it’s all said and done between pop adjustments and cd and people will still cry for more yet it still isn’t that big of a deal. I hope a lot go back to bruiser. There are a lot of monks that are just disappointing to share the same class with due to their reliance on one ability and their ineptitude to excel with their other abilities. That being said, people always find reason for complaints and demand more needs instead of buffs. It’s becoming quite comical. <br /><br />Side note, ftom testing heroics in beta, as far as right now, tanks are 100% mandatory. I know I’ll personally only run one zone one time on it hits live: You must be crazy to do the zones twice in a night/sitting. Some type of allowance should be implemented to do with a scout tank but on the same token, that scout is going to get throttles cuz no saves. So it’s a tricky one.

[Earar]

had the same discussion last xpac with tanky scouts. not what devs want.<br /> <br />rogues have taunt for emergency and can tank a bit ... but that's it. rogues were not supposed to be able to tank a full zone. Gninja said that (not exactly those words)<br /> <br />so we'll deal with it like in PoP

[XustinuS]

can some1 pls test and past logs for taunting abilities with same char, AA, items, consumables and same mob? <br />Since pot to fervor conversion will be done in CD and taunts dont use fervor if we can post some logs maybe/hopefully we can get some general increase on the taunting abilities b4 expac goes live...