Bleedthrough Questions

[Mermut]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote"> <aside> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The functionality of bleedthrough has been overhauled to align more closely with its intended purpose. The amount of damage that an encounter bleeds through wards will now bleed through all wards on the target, and inflict damage directly on the targeted pool (health/power) of the target. The amount of bleed through encounters currently on Live servers can bleed through has been reduced to be in line with this new functionality.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Could we get some further details/clarification on this?<br />What <b>is</b> the intended purpose of bleedthrough, from the developer perspective?<br /> <br />Would it be possible to put the mobs bleedthrough numbers in the buff like resolve, MA avoidance, etc?<br /> <br />Are there any changes being considered for classes like mystic which do not have tools to deal with damage constantly getting through wards?<br /> <br />Is it intended that even the easiest heroic content is going to require 2 healers to avoid deaths?<br /> <br />This is a very significant change to the way healing is going to work. Putting a point ward on the tank and a group ward on the group isn't actually going to give the tank any extra protection. Having a shaman grp ward up and a templar group ward up isn't going to provide any benefit either.<br /> <br />If this isn't how the change is actually going to work, please explain how it will work. It would be nice to have an idea how the healing environment is going to work to avoid painful and failed heroic runs.

[Sakurra]

what i noticed since my fights ist that no other ward will touched till the first ward i casted will be running of or the amount of ward will be otherwise " deleted ". For example ( im mystic) : when i cast Ancestral Ward (single ward) and Torpor (single heal over time with ward component) at the same time on me, that the ward from Torpor will no be touched since the ward from Ancestral Ward will be gone. same with the grp ward and single ward in same time one me. So i think that the single and grp ward on the same time on tank would not have any affect. no thats not right. at frist would be used the single ward and when grp have any left from grp ward then the grp ward will be protect the tank. We must cast one ward after another on our tanks to protect him or her 100% of the time. so no slacking anymore.

[Mermut]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Sakurra"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Sakurra said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6523102#post-6523102" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">what i noticed since my fights ist that no other ward will touched till the first ward i casted will be running of or the amount of ward will be otherwise " deleted ". For example ( im mystic) : when i cast Ancestral Ward (single ward) and Torpor (single heal over time with ward component) at the same time on me, that the ward from Torpor will no be touched since the ward from Ancestral Ward will be gone. same with the grp ward and single ward in same time one me. So i think that the single and grp ward on the same time on tank would not have any affect. no thats not right. at frist would be used the single ward and when grp have any left from grp ward then the grp ward will be protect the tank. We must cast one ward after another on our tanks to protect him or her 100% of the time. so no slacking anymore.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>That fits with what I've seen. That makes single target wards mostly useless.. It also makes multiple group wards useless.<br />That is the reason for my questions.<br />Both shaman have 3 point wards and 1 group ward by default and they can spec for 2 more group wards. But they only have 1 single target direct heal and 1 group heal. Hence my concerns about how they will fair in heroic content.

[Rebelde]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6523090#post-6523090" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">What <b>is</b> the intended purpose of bleedthrough, from the developer perspective?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>More wardens and less shamans.<br />Thank you for give us wards and make the mobs ignore them.

[Gninja]

The general idea is that its the first step toward getting rid of the incoming damage being no damage or one shot with no in between.

[Wizftw]

Does the post in general beta and the above comment mean that there will be no point in stacking wards for shamans? What about individual wards from the dragon tree and other healer classes that have wards.

[Mermut]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Wizftw"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Wizftw said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6523310#post-6523310" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Does the post in general beta and the above comment mean that there will be no point in stacking wards for shamans? What about individual wards from the dragon tree and other healer classes that have wards.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Unless the damage is enough to completely use up 1 ward, having a second ward on the same person is pointless, yes. It doesn't matter if they're group wards, point wards or wards from two different characters.<br /> <br />The personal ward probably won't be worth having outside of solo content in Chaos Descending and not even then for classes that cast wards of their own.

[Fistpower]

I assume this will affect TLE too, which is bad because auto attack dmg has been tuned very high and not having a channeler+defiler+templar in MT often means a dead tank no matter what you do the first couple of weeks into a new expansion.<br /> <br />Wards have to stay the same on TLE until Chaos releases or stack or auto attack damage lowered, making fights even easier than they are.

[Darwiin]

Better idea, let just get rid of bleed thru all together. The fact that hardly any implementation that DB puts into a game ever turn out the way they intended and yet they still bull through it always baffles me. <br />Why hamper one healing class because you can't figure out what to do with the other 3 types of healers? You are not making a Druid healer only do 80% of what they are capable of healing per HoT. You are not making the reactives on a Inq/templar heal 80% of what they are capable once they react to damage. So why do it to Chain healer?<br /> <br />This wouldn't be that big of a deal if in Raid zones bleedthru can sometime be nearly 100% on some damage, and even if its only 80% when the tic(boss damage over time) damage is already 100M to 150M (like some damage in last expac) thats 20-30 Million each to a whole group.

[Gninja]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Clintsat"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Clintsat said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524172#post-6524172" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Will damage reduction abilities affect bleedthrough damage? I know it is not something you guys normally do but I think the raiding community would really like it if we knew what the general healer makeup is expected to be while we have four weeks to get ready.<br /> <br />My guild cleared KA with a standard set of 5/6 priests. PoP took 6-8 sometimes less with beastlords. Is the goal 8?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I believe damage reduction is applied last which means it should apply after bleedthrough has done its thing.

[Mermut]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Trabu"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Trabu said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524173#post-6524173" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Another question, what determines which ward is used up first. Is it order of cast? Or is it raid/group/single target/personal?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>First cast.

[Clintsat]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gninja"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gninja said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6523177#post-6523177" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The general idea is that its the first step toward getting rid of the incoming damage being no damage or one shot with no in between.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Will damage reduction abilities affect bleedthrough damage? I know it is not something you guys normally do but I think the raiding community would really like it if we knew what the general healer makeup is expected to be while we have four weeks to get ready.<br /><br />My guild cleared KA with a standard set of 5/6 priests. PoP took 6-8 sometimes less with beastlords. Is the goal 8?

[Trabu]

Another question, what determines which ward is used up first. Is it order of cast? Or is it raid/group/single target/personal?

[Wreckin]

bleedthrough is ok if its not too extreme like it is atm on some content. lets say you get hit for 10mil dmg and the defiler puts a 10 mil single target ward on you and a 30 mil grp ward. and then there is 50% bleedthrough. the single ward will stop 5 mil of the damage then the grp ward will stop another 2,5 mil of the damage so you will be left with 2.5 mil of the initial damage left unhealed. that is where you would need HOT heals to pick up the rest whether it be defiler hot or a second healer. problem is that the damage is coming in so fast that unless the healer has really good HOT the bleedthrough damage comes to fast to be healed. and with the addition of now a buff on current content having 100% bleedthrough if you get more than 8 targets it will require a second healer. they are just trying to make it where other healers are viable this expac. its a good thing as long as the bleedthrough doesn't get out of hand.

[Chath]

The old way with number of wards being far more important than their actual values clearly wasn't ideal for bleedthrough, but the new way of having the aggregate value of wards be meaningless is very unsatisfying. What I would prefer is if the total warding value compared to the damage value modified bleedthrough percentage. If you had the comparison of total ward value that would prevent damage without bleedthrough to the damage amount modify the bleedthrough percentage, then you could have wards remain meaningful. Moreover, it would also support the goal of reducing one-shots: As wards would be battered down, bleedthrough would increase, ramping actual damage taken up and making things more dangerous.<br /> <br />For example, suppose bleedthrough started much higher, around 90% or so. Someone takes 5 million damage, and only has 3 million points of damage of warding on them. The damage and warding would be compared, and since the damage is higher, bleedthrough is not reduced in any way, making the ward a slight reduction in damage taken. With higher values of warding, the bleedthrough would be decreased, though probably in a non-linear way to require higher percentages to degrade damage. Effectively, warding would become damage reduction based on total ward values. If the proportional comparison of damage to warding for calculating bleedthrough was based on some stat that'd increase from expansion to expansion, like npc resolve, that'd allow things to increase in parallel with progression rather than repeat the same issues with multiplicative values that got us here in the first place.