How many of you MT on a regular basis?

[Darkbrood]

Do you MT most of the time?  Does your group suffer as the result of a SK MT? Do you go S/B when tanking, if so how well does a kite sheild work for you? Comming back to the game, want to tank, want more flavor than Guardian.....hoping SK fits the bill! Thanks in advance, <div></div>

[Bruener]

<P>I MT most of the time in a regular group setting.  Its the epic encounters that become tough for a sk to tank, otherwise if you want to definitely go for it.  Believe it or not we are supposed to be tanks :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Deule</P> <P>50 Shadowknight and Leader of The Underlords</P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkbrood wrote:<BR>Do you MT most of the time?  <BR><BR>Does your group suffer as the result of a SK MT?<BR><BR>Do you go S/B when tanking, if so how well does a kite sheild work for you?<BR><BR><BR>Comming back to the game, want to tank, want more flavor than Guardian.....hoping SK fits the bill!<BR><BR><BR>Thanks in advance,<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1.  Yes I MT most of the time I group, but if grouping with Beserker, Pally, Or specially a Guardian I let them tank (unless there is substantial difference in gear/Level), to be blunt they have better tools for the role.</P> <P>2.  Think it depends on the encounter, if tanking a single mob, don't think it effects the group at all, except the healer might have to heal a bit more, but not a huge issue.  Its when Tanking Groups I think we have a bit of problems, we only have a single group buff, so aggro maintaince is harder with a Shadow Knight.  We have AOE's to help on aggro (of course don't use when grouping with a mezzer), but they don't seem to have the aggro umph that some of the other classes buffs have.  Plus if you think Lifetaps is a great ability, DON'T, they kind suck <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</P> <P>3.  If I am tanking anything above single mob blue, I use 1h/Board due to two issues, one of course your mitigation improves, two we have an ability to shield bash which does both damage and adds aggro ... understand our highest bash doesn't work on epics though.  Kite shield is 2nd best shield in the game, while the kite isn't as good as the Barn door as the guardians call it, it does stay fairly close to equivlent levels.</P> <P>4. To offset this we currently do very good DPS, have some fun abilities, and have some nice flavor for lack of better word</P> <P>Hope that answers your questions, mind you I am not at end game, currently level 39, but I hope my percpective helped.</P> <P>Good Luck</P> <P>Blackoath 39th Troll Shadow Knight</P> <p>Message Edited by Margen on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[Darkbrood]

Bruener & Margen, Thank you very much for taking the time to offer your insights!  If I read the two of you right, you do fine day to day tanking, could use more tools for the toughest mobs and groups? Thats fine, I'm a casual by nature, the ability to tank the final boss in the toughest dungeon in the land will never be one of my frustrations <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Again, thanks much!~ <div></div>

[Rylight]

<DIV>im not sure your even still reading this post. but let me tell you this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>first off , though you didnt address this, as an Sk I am rarly ever lfg for more then 10 minutes. I was just playing like 15 minutes ago, and only had my lfg tag on for less then 2 minutes before an Everfrost group asked me to tank for them. of course I graciously accepted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I MT ALL THE TIME, in fact I am a 42 sk who was just in a group of a lvl 45 templer, 47 assassian, 46? warlock, 44 necro? and a 43 swashbuckler, and as you can plainly see I was the lowest lvl of an entire group of mostly dps and a really good templer, anyways we fought in Everfrost for a good three hours and had little to no problems. only 2 ppl died as a result of unseen adds (another died because she jumped off a cliff, but lets not get into that) to the point, We had a great time and I was complimented on my good tanking ability</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>whenever I am in a group I ALWAYS wear my kite sheild (currently shiny brass shield) and one handed sword. (only exception is when fighting solo mobs in a group, then a 2hander works fine)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways the only time I am not MT is when there is a guardian or zerker in the group, and maybe a paladin if he is higher lvl then me, otherwise I am always in the forefront of battle and love it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so yes, we do great day to day tanking, and It should be known by the entire EQ community that sk's are indeed tanks ( though I wouldnt suggest being Mt in a raid group, then again it has been done <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )</DIV>

[Darkbrood]

Rylight, I am indeed still reading this post, thank you for your insights..... I have no made a Orge Fighter who will become a SK, he is growing up on Mistmore, and I will let you all know how things progress. Thanks a gain for your help, it's much appreciated! ~ <div></div>

[VeinTro]

I havent MT in a while,  I am lvl 50 and the peeps that know me know I have adept 3 gift of armament. In fact I rarely single group.  I just buff up the MT or the MA depending what group I am in

[Brassrail]

<P><FONT color=#3333cc>I MT almost all of the time in our guild, it may be because my gear gives me just a hair more HP's then the regular guadian in our grouping. btw his hp buffs get added to us also if in that same group. Because of that fact I've tanked epic raid mobs also.  I only have adept I in everything but it seems to do the trick.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3333cc> It's my personal beliefe the Guadian if he had equal gear would make a better tank but so far the clerics we group with have told me that they are very happy with my agro management. I think the role of MT shouldn't be based on how much damage we to to a mob but more on the ability of keeping said monster from wacking other group/raid members so they can deal more DPS. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3333cc>  So far I've found any plate class tank can do the job equally well ( sometimes its nice to take the back seat and just go alone for the ride lol ). but I have to admit the MT posistion adds abit of thrill to the game.  Sooo I sugest if you other Shadow Knights haven't tried the role of Main Tank give it a shot. Work on that agro managiment and maybe that healer in the group will start sugesting you tank in the encounters. :robotmad:</FONT></P> <p>Message Edited by Brassrail on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[vTenebr]

<div></div>Groups, frankly, a tank is a tank.  If the player is decent you can interchange any type of fighter/plate class for the role of main tank.  Anyone who says otherwise is grouping with crappy SKs. (Which, sadly, there seem to be a hell of a lot of.. I, sometimes, avoid SKs with my dirge because 90% of them don't know how to bloody play the class.  It's freaking SAD)  Any GOOD player is fine to fill their intended group role. I almost never MT, however, in raid situations. They leave that for the guardians. <b>BUT.. </b> I am *very often* the MA.  Frankly, I find that to be more interesting and just as important.  The entire raid gets a target and kills through you.  1 mistarget, or being too slow to pick a target, can absolutely destroy a raid.  Your job is to be on the ball at all times and, if needed, get those mobs *OFF* the healers and casters.  Sometimes, the MT dies.  As MA you'd be wise to step in and regain control of that bouncing mob while the healers get the MT back up.  I've done it, it works.  I freaking feel so USEFUL as MA. Think about it, any of you raiding types ever been on a raid where the MA was too slow or totally clueless?  Ever have them screw up bad enough to wipe your entire raid force?  I've seen it happen. So, while I may not be the MT.. SK is still worth it's salt in raids (woo change in tune now that I'm in a guild that actually *gasp* understands that guardians aren't the only tank out there) IF you know how to play. <div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

[Zoradan]

<P>Dito what the Rat said.</P> <P>I'm often the MA, I buff the MT and am in "grp 1" 90% of the time, if things look sketchy I'm set to be back up tank; taunt the encounter while the Guard or Zerker MT dose realy helps keep you up on the hate list.</P> <P>I also MT a lot, not on contested x4's but on the 2 am contested x2's I'm often on, and in instances I tank all the time (we do them off hrs or when ever we have the right folks).</P>

[Abronz]

<P>Noob here.....</P> <P>Just what the heck does "MA" stand for??</P> <P>I know MT is for Main Tank.</P> <P>Can someone be kind enough to clue me in.</P> <P>Thanks</P>

[vTenebr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Abronz wrote:<p>Noob here.....</p> <p>Just what the heck does "MA" stand for??</p> <p>I know MT is for Main Tank.</p> <p>Can someone be kind enough to clue me in.</p> <p>Thanks</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Main Assist. The MT will never change mobs.. but many encounters have lots of adds.  So our job is to target the adds so they can be picked off by the raid force, while the MT keeps agro on the baddie while we dispatch of the vermin. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Abronz]

Thanks vTenebrae for the info.

[DUNN]

I have been saying for ever that MA is way better than tanking.  I have more fun doing it.   I hate having a sword abnd board.  Leave that to the warriors who like to hide behind their barn door.

[Exmortis_MT]

<P>I play with a grp of friends, often the same 4 of us as a base group.  1 SK, 1 Guard, 1 Inq and a necro,  Its a solid foundation for any group.  The Guard and I ofset tanking when who is every highest level or if one just wants to be support today we trade off.  Adds are to be picked up by the support role tank, works well.</P> <P>I use Shields when its needed, and mostly when fighting orange+ or named mobs.  Of course depending on make up of the group.  If we have a high dps group I use my imbued ebon greatsword, if you go total dps you can reduce heals by kill rate, its very effective.  when i was 46 in Perma with a pickup grp we ended up with a 45 zerker, we traded aggro and his gear was not as good as mine, so we switched gears and went total dps and in the end the healer said it was easier, fast heals to start but less over all power use.  Our downtime dropped to zero, as fast as we coudl pull we killed, aggro wasnt a big deal due to kill speed, but I had an easier time of it when the chanter joined and I had power to burn.  SKs greatest weakness is the very high power use.</P> <P>Epic encounters are hard on SKs, there are a few that require poison reists and with A3 defensive bufff adding 600+ poison resist we often get the call.  Our hp are lower then guards usually and we dont quite have the midigation.</P> <P>Our lifetaps when stacked up against Pallies really do suck.  I am hoping in revamp we end up where we should be, a decent tank when needed even on epic encounters, yes guard/pally are better, but we should be able to fill the role when needed for some of the easier epic encounters.</P>

[Rashaak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkbrood wrote:<BR>Do you MT most of the time?  <BR><BR>Does your group suffer as the result of a SK MT?<BR><BR>Do you go S/B when tanking, if so how well does a kite sheild work for you?<BR><BR><BR>Comming back to the game, want to tank, want more flavor than Guardian.....hoping SK fits the bill!<BR><BR><BR>Thanks in advance,<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I do alot of MT, infact just helped out a 38 level Warden take out some named for her cove of decay access. Some level 31 Heroic ^^ who seemed to just put a hurt on her twice? Unsure how that was possible. I do know they have changed some things with heroic encounters...not exactly sure though. I am a level 30 SK, my gear is not really uber (no imbued items, or hex dolls) just pristine feyiron armor, plus pristine jewelry items. Anyways...even though the mob did end up killing me, I tanked him really well for only being level 30....it was kinda hit for hit between me and the mob. The mob used a high amount of disease and poison spell's, so I used a potion that up'd my resists, which I think helped. But what played a major role, was my shield (Sheer Bone Kite Shield), able to bash the caster and keep him from casting too much. Between that and my charge (both adept 1) I kept him in check on the casting for the most part. He did overtake me in the end, but had him down to about 2 % health, before he layed into me a good wallup (I was OoM at the time too)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 28 I soloed the Gul Thex Elite Guard and his buddies with ease (was still wearing my AQ armor, and skull crusher, with ash kite shield). As you can tell, I mainly use a 1hit crushing weapon with shield, but when I'm MA, I use my SBH. I think other than the SK's lifetaps, we have good enough utility to hold up in any fight as a MT. We have really good Hate generator's (Inflame, Decree of Decay lines), the ability to feign ourselves or companions (helpful way to retake aggro), our lovely PUDDLE OF GOOP!! or the MYSTICAL AND MESMERIZING GHOSTLY HAWK!! (need something a little more intimidating as pets..but work great for an assisted DoT), our HT line (when you get 30th, you can choose an upgrade that gives a 15 min timer rather than a 30 min timer -- think this timer still needs reduced to 5 min), the wards (Infernal pact, etc), and basically the ability to chain HO's. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only real problem (besides lifetaps), is that we consume alot of power, so I generally keep my lower T2 stuff on back-up in case I need to create an HO or to complete a group HO to keep power up. (Usually keep Righteous Anger, and Taunt (T1) no back up hot key)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways....I guess its all how you play your SK will decide whether or not he'll make it as a MT, or be better suited for MA, goodluck to ya!</DIV>

[vTenebr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rashaak wrote: <blockquote> <hr></blockquote>I do alot of MT, infact just helped out a 38 level Warden take out some named for her cove of decay access. Some level 31 Heroic ^^ who seemed to just put a hurt on her twice? Unsure how that was possible. I do know they have changed some things with heroic encounters...not exactly sure though. I am a level 30 SK, my gear is not really uber (no imbued items, or hex dolls) just pristine feyiron armor, plus pristine jewelry items.  <div> </div> <div>At level 28 I soloed the Gul Thex Elite Guard .....</div><div> </div> <div>Anyways....I guess its all how you play your SK will decide whether or not he'll make it as a MT, or be better suited for MA, goodluck to ya!</div><hr> Here's the thing you're neglecting.  You're doing a lot of MT at a lower level.  Post 45 it's a whole different game.  I acted as MT easily prior to hitting the final hump in EQ2. SK are almost never MT in raids.  Most guilds leave that to Guardians.  It's not a matter of "how we play our SK" that makes us MT or suited for MA, it's a matter of not having the same taunts, hps, and abilities that make guardians the best choice for MT by a long shot.  I'm very skilled with my class and play it to the utmost.  I've been the biggest and most ardent supporter of our class, as a whole.  I've always said that SK are excellent tanks and, while difficult, can fulfill nearly any role.  Then I hit 50.  Then I began raiding regularly.  I've been raiding at lvl 50 for about 6 months now.   And it was quite disappointing to realize that, no matter how skillfully I play my SK, I just CANNOT tank as well as a guardian. While it may be POSSIBLE for a Shadow Knight to act as MT, it's just not as efficient and reliable as a Guardian MT.  We're just better suited to be offtank/MA. Hopefully the combat changes will address this a bit. </blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:10 PM</span>

[Blackdog183]

Ive been MT in 2 seperate guilds now(left my old guild to start a new one with close friends), and I can say this, after level 40, SK becomes a much better tank, after 45, even more so.  I MT raids and xp grps, as well as solo alot, and enjoy the class immensly, is there problems, yes.  Hopefully the combat revamp will resolve a few of them, hopefully people will learn to get past the preconceived notion that SK's arent good tanks.  Ive outanked every other class in quite a few situations.  I can tell you this, theres a by point stat differnce between crusaders/brawlers and warriors that needs to be adressed immediatly.  I wear all Ebon armor, minus the breatplate which is a fabled drop, and have my main stats over 130, with str and sta over 150 unbuffed,  Just be the best tank you can be, learn what works as a SK and you will be the MT.

[vTenebr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Blackdog183 wrote:<div></div>Ive been MT in 2 seperate guilds now(left my old guild to start a new one with close friends), and I can say this, after level 40, SK becomes a much better tank, after 45, even more so.  I MT raids and xp grps, as well as solo alot, and enjoy the class immensly, is there problems, yes.  Hopefully the combat revamp will resolve a few of them, hopefully people will learn to get past the preconceived notion that SK's arent good tanks.  Ive outanked every other class in quite a few situations.  I can tell you this, theres a by point stat differnce between crusaders/brawlers and warriors that needs to be adressed immediatly.  I wear all Ebon armor, minus the breatplate which is a fabled drop, and have my main stats over 130, with str and sta over 150 unbuffed,  Just be the best tank you can be, learn what works as a SK and you will be the MT.<hr></blockquote>Out of curiosity, do you tank Darathar, Venekor, Vox, & Nagalik (as well as the CL, Ant, CT, EF, etc instances).  I've tanked some raids, but the "big ones" have usually been handled by guardians as it's easier to keep them up.  I'm no slouch on my stats, either.. but the guardians are just used more often.  So I'm just wondering how you do with those encounters. I acted as MT quite a lot for many raids prior to hitting level 50.  At level 50 when taking on the "latter" encounters, that's usually left up to the Guardian.  No offense Blackdog, but you're not 50 and I can't believe that your guild would be having a level 49 (in your case)or less SK tank those kinds of raids.  That would be suicidal. That's my only point to the OP, we can act as tank quite well and do an incredible job.. until you get to the high end raids. Then we're MA.  There's nothing wrong with that, I don't get why people act as though having different strengths is a bad thing.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[Shalori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vTenebrae wrote:<SPAN><BR><BR>That's my only point to the OP, we can act as tank quite well and do an incredible job.. <FONT color=#ff3300>until you get to the high end raids</FONT>. <FONT color=#ff0000>Then we're MA</FONT>.  There's nothing wrong with that, I don't get why people act as though having different strengths is a bad thing.<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <SPAN class=date_text>07-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>*shrugs* Don't know what you are talking about there. I have tanked everything end game from Brutal Acts of War, Darathar, and Sol Fist to name a few. So, basically I have done the high end raids that you are talking about. Sure I have been the MA every now and then, and while IMO it is a more crucial role I love being the person to shut everyone's pie hole about how Guardians can only tank Mob_XXX.</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://rynoth.com/public/tindara.WMV" target=_blank>http://rynoth.com/public/tindara.WMV</A></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[vTenebr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shalori wrote: <blockquote> <hr> vTenebrae wrote:<span>That's my only point to the OP, we can act as tank quite well and do an incredible job.. <font color="#ff3300">until you get to the high end raids</font>. <font color="#ff0000">Then we're MA</font>.  There's nothing wrong with that, I don't get why people act as though having different strengths is a bad thing.</span> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class="date_text">07-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:40 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>*shrugs* Don't know what you are talking about there. I have tanked everything end game from Brutal Acts of War, Darathar, and Sol Fist to name a few. So, basically I have done the high end raids that you are talking about. Sure I have been the MA every now and then, and while IMO it is a more crucial role I love being the person to shut everyone's pie hole about how Guardians can only tank Mob_XXX.</p> <p><a href="http://rynoth.com/public/tindara.WMV" target="_blank">http://rynoth.com/public/tindara.WMV</a></p> <hr></blockquote>Yes, because I said every and all.  There's a reason I said MOST.  Just because YOU have done it, does NOT mean it's a common occurance OR that we're equal to guardians.  It's that YOU have done it and YOUR GUILD has decided to allow SKs to be MT.  Never have I said we're inferior, I spoke in generalities to someone who asked if we were MT. GENERALLY SPEAKING.. AS IN.. MORE OFTEN THAN NOT.. as in.. 90% of the time... as in NOT ALL THE TIME, BUT MOST.. Guardians act as MT and Shadow Knights play a support tank, off tank, main assist role. Just because it happens and it's possible does not mean it's the norm. It's absolutely possible to survive falling out of a plane, it's happened many times..  would you think to say "lets jump out of a plane without parachutes.. it's possible you'll survive!"?</span><div></div>

[Rashaak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vTenebrae wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Here's the thing you're neglecting.  You're doing a lot of MT at a lower level.  Post 45 it's a whole different game.  I acted as MT easily prior to hitting the final hump in EQ2.<BR><BR>SK are almost never MT in raids.  Most guilds leave that to Guardians.  It's not a matter of "how we play our SK" that makes us MT or suited for MA, it's a matter of not having the same taunts, hps, and abilities that make guardians the best choice for MT by a long shot.  <BR><BR>I'm very skilled with my class and play it to the utmost.  I've been the biggest and most ardent supporter of our class, as a whole.  I've always said that SK are excellent tanks and, while difficult, can fulfill nearly any role.  Then I hit 50.  Then I began raiding regularly.  I've been raiding at lvl 50 for about 6 months now.   And it was quite disappointing to realize that, no matter how skillfully I play my SK, I just CANNOT tank as well as a guardian.<BR><BR>While it may be POSSIBLE for a Shadow Knight to act as MT, it's just not as efficient and reliable as a Guardian MT.  We're just better suited to be offtank/MA.<BR><BR>Hopefully the combat changes will address this a bit.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:10 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No disrespect intended here, but your a Ratonga SK, hehheh</P> <P>I'm a barbarian SK, your strenght at level 50 is the same as mine at lvl 30 (buffed)...its pretty much a given, that a Barbarian tank is going to be able to do better than a Ratonga tank. Barbarian's are pretty much built for the role of fighter, ratonga is not. Like I said, no disrespect intended, and this was not meant to flame. I am not to lvl 50 yet...prolly won't be there for awhile. I think basically MT is situational at best, and alot does go into how well equiped your SK is, and how well the current SK utilities are utilized. When I hit "post 45" i'll see if stink at that point...but I enjoy my SK and what I can do with him.<BR></P>

[vTenebr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rashaak wrote: <p>I'm a barbarian SK, your strenght at level 50 is the same as mine at lvl 30 (buffed)...its pretty much a given, that a Barbarian tank is going to be able to do better than a Ratonga tank. Barbarian's are pretty much built for the role of fighter, ratonga is not. Like I said, no disrespect intended, and this was not meant to flame. I am not to lvl 50 yet...prolly won't be there for awhile. I think basically MT is situational at best, and alot does go into how well equiped your SK is, and how well the current SK utilities are utilized. When I hit "post 45" i'll see if stink at that point...but I enjoy my SK and what I can do with him.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>No disrespect intended, but you're still an SK.  No disrespect intended, but you still only have 2 taunts vs. Guardians 5. No disrespect intended "hehe" but you're not 50 yet.  No disrespect intended but, again, I was speaking in general terms.  No disrespect intended but.. lol.. I never said we "stank", did I?  If I did, please bloody [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing quote me on that, thanks much. I've been the biggest goddamned supporter of the SK since day one.  When all the whiners would boohoo about how broken we were and how much we sucked, I sang our praises.. so "no disrespect" but don't talk down to me like I'm some piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] dirtball who has no goddamned clue and just fell off the turnip truck.  I know the class, I love my character and I think SK are fantastic. I was speaking generally.. GENERALLY SPEAKING (as in NOT ALL THE GODDAMNED TIME.. PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME) raiding guilds *PREFER* to use Guardians as tanks due to their abilities (extra taunts, Anchor, and various hate increasing skills and defense buffs).  This isn't a bad thing, nor is it a complaint.  It's just how things are.  Hell even SoE is addressing this in the combat revamp because guardians are.. in THEIR words "Far and away the best tanks" and they want to balance it out so that the rest of us have more use. [Removed for Content].. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] do SK get in an uproar because I say, 9 times of 10.. MOST people prefer guardians as MT?  I love my SK.  I always have.  I play my role with style and grace.  That doesnt mean I live in the delusion that I am the same as a Guardian. No disrespect intended... Of course.</span><div></div>

[Rashaak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vTenebrae wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR> <P>I'm a barbarian SK, your strenght at level 50 is the same as mine at lvl 30 (buffed)...its pretty much a given, that a Barbarian tank is going to be able to do better than a Ratonga tank. Barbarian's are pretty much built for the role of fighter, ratonga is not. Like I said, no disrespect intended, and this was not meant to flame. I am not to lvl 50 yet...prolly won't be there for awhile. I think basically MT is situational at best, and alot does go into how well equiped your SK is, and how well the current SK utilities are utilized. When I hit "post 45" i'll see if stink at that point...but I enjoy my SK and what I can do with him.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No disrespect intended, but you're still an SK.  No disrespect intended, but you still only have 2 taunts vs. Guardians 5. No disrespect intended "hehe" but you're not 50 yet.  No disrespect intended but, again, I was speaking in general terms.  No disrespect intended but.. lol.. I never said we "stank", did I?  If I did, please bloody [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing quote me on that, thanks much.<BR><BR>I've been the biggest goddamned supporter of the SK since day one.  When all the whiners would boohoo about how broken we were and how much we sucked, I sang our praises.. so "no disrespect" but don't talk down to me like I'm some piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] dirtball who has no goddamned clue and just fell off the turnip truck.  I know the class, I love my character and I think SK are fantastic.<BR><BR>I was speaking generally.. GENERALLY SPEAKING (as in NOT ALL THE GODDAMNED TIME.. PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME) raiding guilds *PREFER* to use Guardians as tanks due to their abilities (extra taunts, Anchor, and various hate increasing skills and defense buffs).  This isn't a bad thing, nor is it a complaint.  It's just how things are.  Hell even SoE is addressing this in the combat revamp because guardians are.. in THEIR words "Far and away the best tanks" and they want to balance it out so that the rest of us have more use.<BR><BR>[Removed for Content].. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] do SK get in an uproar because I say, 9 times of 10.. MOST people prefer guardians as MT? <BR><BR>I love my SK.  I always have.  I play my role with style and grace.  That doesnt mean I live in the delusion that I am the same as a Guardian.<BR><BR>No disrespect intended...<BR><BR>Of course.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Okay...you know what...I ment disrespect then....if you are so delusional that you can't see past your own flame, then I don't give a rats [Removed for Content] what you say. You say "post" 45  your not an affective tank because ppl prefer a Guardian over an SK, well thats your opinion, but you've posted in this thread, countering the positive role an SK can have on several different posts. I don't care how big of a supporter you were of the SK when the "nerf" bat struck, or if spells were broken, blah, blah blah, it don't matter. Some one says they MT consistently in 'raids' some say they don't. Big deal, the fact is it sounds to me it is situational.</P> <P>Its obvious you have some deep seeded issues, that you can't get past "no disrespect". I was trying to be respectful, but if thats not what you want, so be it...............................................S o, shut your snout, and post else where. I gave MY opinion on how I like my SK, I don't need you commenting, telling me "post" 45 is different. He wanted opinions of SK's, I gave him my opinion.</P> <P>So, please just take your flying leap out of plane without a parachute, and leave me be.</P>

[vTenebr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rashaak wrote:<div>Okay...you know what...I ment disrespect then.... <font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#9933ff"><font color="#ff99cc">I knew that in the first place. The condescending snicker when mentioning my race spoke volumes.</font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font> </font>if you are so delusional that you can't see past your own flame, then I don't give a rats [Removed for Content] what you say. You say "post" 45  your not an affective tank because ppl prefer a Guardian over an SK, well thats your opinion, but you've posted in this thread, countering the positive role an SK can have on several different posts. <font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc">Where have I said SK are not effective?  I haven't.  So don't put words into my mouth, thank you.  I've merely stated that, post 45 our role is vastly different than it is up to that point.  I've also stated we're still excellent support tanks and can do pretty much anything, in a pinch, due to our versatility.  That being said..</font><font color="#ff9999"> </font> <font color="#cc66ff"><font color="#ff99cc">The intent isn't to counter the positive role an SK can have within a raid or a guild, it's to give a realistic portrayel of the class and it's place as viewed by most guilds and players.  It's not to state that Shadow Knights are worthless or "gimped" it's to offer an honest appraisal of the role we play, generally speaking.  People are marching out the exceptions, rather than the rule.</font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc">That's all well and good.  The SK is a versatile class and </font><font color="#ff99cc"><i>can, possibly </i></font><font color="#ff99cc">be used in a MT capacity.  However, that is rarely the case in the "big raids" end game.  Most players and guilds see Shadow Knights as support tanks or, unfortunately, less than that.  I've seen and been around guilds that only accept SKs if they know the person, as they actually see the class as completely useless.  I wish that were an uncommon belief, but it's not. </font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc">These boards are replete with Shadow Knights who complain that people barely even see them as tanks, can't get groups, and/or cannot get guilds to notice them.  Even SoE is saying "oops" about the way they've handled tanks and their abilities.  Even they admit that, woops, they made a terrible mistake and it's come to their attention (months later,mind you) that there is imbalance among the tank classes and most people prefer guardians to tank almost anything and everything.  They've realized that some tanks were not getting the love, as it were and as such were shunted aside.  </font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc"> </font><font color="#ff99cc">There's a reason the number of guardians since release has boomed.   People who played the support tank roles got sick of being blown off or seen as useless or inferior.  Not everyone felt this way about us, thankfully.  However, far too many did and continue to do so.  If you have a guild or group that willingly gives a chance to SKs or other support tanks and treats them as equal to guardians, that's a wonderful thing.  However, it's still unusual and uncommon.</font> </font> I don't care how big of a supporter you were of the SK when the "nerf" bat struck, or if spells were broken, blah, blah blah, it don't matter. Some one says they MT consistently in 'raids' some say they don't. Big deal, the fact is it sounds to me it is situational. <font color="#ff99cc">The fact of the matter is, we're dealing with public perception of the Shadow Knight, not an individial "situational" thing.  It's quite true that guardians have abilities and arts that do make them the <i>better </i>choice when it comes to tanking the most difficult encounters.  That doesn't mean SK can't be a choice, it just means that most of the time, a guardian will be chosen.  I applaud those rare guilds that allow Shadow Knights to act as main tank, I think it's wonderful they take a different tack and choose not to do the "easier" thing.  I just recognize that it is, indeed, rare. It's only situational if we're equal all around, it merely depends on the encounter.  I wish that were the case.  If it were, however, there would be far more guilds with SK playing the MT role and far fewer who relegate shadow knights to the end of the line, as far as classes they even want in their guild. </font></div> <p>Its obvious you have some deep seeded issues.. </p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">Disagreeing with you and seeing past the "I'm going to say something incredibly condescending to you, but put some catch phrase in front so that I can get away with it" doesn't mean I have issues. </font></p> <p>I gave MY opinion on how I like my SK.. </p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">I didn't offer him opinions, I gave him general terms and common perceptions of the Shadow Knight.  My OPINION on the matter is entirely different.  I firmly believe that SK can be effective tanks and even take on the role of MT, even though it's a bit of a challenge.  I'm just realistic and notice that the rest of the world, for the most part, doesn't see us that way.  </font><span><font color="#ff99cc">We  do have fewer taunts, fewer hate generating abilities, and less defensive arts than Guardians.  It's that way by design, for now. </font></span></p> <p><span><font color="#ff99cc">As such it's exceedingly uncommon for most guilds and groups to want an SK as main tank if an equal level guardian is available.  My only  point is to give this person realistic expectations.  If he expects to be MT at all times and to be treated as an equal to a guardian, he's going to be very disappointed and disenchanted with the class. </font></span></p> <p><span><font color="#ff99cc">We have enough people who're saddened by people's perceptions of this class.  We've had enough people quit because they expected something and didn't get it.  We've had far too many become disallusioned with a perfectly good class.. but perhaps not in the manner they wished.  I'm hoping to avoid that with the OP. </font></span></p> <p>So, please just take your flying leap out of plane without a parachute, and leave me be. </p> <p><font color="#ff99cc">I don't wish your death.  I think that's a bit extreme for a message board, don't you?</font></p> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vTenebrae wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR> <P>I'm a barbarian SK, your strenght at level 50 is the same as mine at lvl 30 (buffed)...its pretty much a given, that a Barbarian tank is going to be able to do better than a Ratonga tank. Barbarian's are pretty much built for the role of fighter, ratonga is not. Like I said, no disrespect intended, and this was not meant to flame. I am not to lvl 50 yet...prolly won't be there for awhile. I think basically MT is situational at best, and alot does go into how well equiped your SK is, and how well the current SK utilities are utilized. When I hit "post 45" i'll see if stink at that point...but I enjoy my SK and what I can do with him.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No disrespect intended, but you're still an SK.  No disrespect intended, but you still only have 2 taunts vs. Guardians 5. No disrespect intended "hehe" but you're not 50 yet.  No disrespect intended but, again, I was speaking in general terms.  No disrespect intended but.. lol.. I never said we "stank", did I?  If I did, please bloody [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing quote me on that, thanks much.<BR><BR>I've been the biggest goddamned supporter of the SK since day one.  When all the whiners would boohoo about how broken we were and how much we sucked, I sang our praises.. so "no disrespect" but don't talk down to me like I'm some piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] dirtball who has no goddamned clue and just fell off the turnip truck.  I know the class, I love my character and I think SK are fantastic.<BR><BR>I was speaking generally.. GENERALLY SPEAKING (as in NOT ALL THE GODDAMNED TIME.. PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME) raiding guilds *PREFER* to use Guardians as tanks due to their abilities (extra taunts, Anchor, and various hate increasing skills and defense buffs).  This isn't a bad thing, nor is it a complaint.  It's just how things are.  Hell even SoE is addressing this in the combat revamp because guardians are.. in THEIR words "Far and away the best tanks" and they want to balance it out so that the rest of us have more use.<BR><BR>[Removed for Content].. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] do SK get in an uproar because I say, 9 times of 10.. MOST people prefer guardians as MT?  <BR><BR>I love my SK.  I always have.  I play my role with style and grace.  That doesnt mean I live in the delusion that I am the same as a Guardian.<BR><BR>No disrespect intended...<BR><BR>Of course.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not to be disrepectful, but last time I checked I have more than 2 taunts, but I could be wrong(althought I doubt it).  Secondly, yes my level 49 fabled gear wearing [Removed for Content] has tanked vix and dath, multiple times.  You a ratonga fro cristsakes, sorry man, but stats do make a difference, and ratonga's stats simply arent the best for tanking, then again neither are Dark elf's and I dont seem to have a problem beating the *average* guardian, because simply put, im not you average SK.  Gear, spells and skill makes all the difference.  Thats why my guild has me tanking instead of the level 50 guardian in fulg armor lol.  And so you realize exactly why *most* people prefer guards to tank, is a preconceived notion and lack of balls on the parts of other tank classes to stand up and say guess the hell what, I CAN TANK TOO.  Shure guards have more aggro skills, no doubt about it, shure they have a ranged item slot, but that does not make them better than a SK with A. skill and B. 30 plat in gear and spells. sorry.  BTW go ahead and check my post history, ive been around a while, and been behind SK's the whole time, do I look down upon you, shure as hell do, your about 3 feet tall with a tail<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[vTenebr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Blackdog183 wrote<blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <div>Not to be disrepectful, but last time I checked I have more than 2 taunts, but I could be wrong(althought I doubt it).  Secondly, yes my level 49 fabled gear wearing [Removed for Content] has tanked vix and dath, multiple times.  You a ratonga fro cristsakes, sorry man, but stats do make a difference, and ratonga's stats simply arent the best for tanking, then again neither are Dark elf's and I dont seem to have a problem beating the *average* guardian, because simply put, im not you average SK.  Gear, spells and skill makes all the difference.  Thats why my guild has me tanking instead of the level 50 guardian in fulg armor lol.  And so you realize exactly why *most* people prefer guards to tank, is a preconceived notion and lack of balls on the parts of other tank classes to stand up and say guess the hell what, I CAN TANK TOO.  Shure guards have more aggro skills, no doubt about it, shure they have a ranged item slot, but that does not make them better than a SK with A. skill and B. 30 plat in gear and spells. sorry.  BTW go ahead and check my post history, ive been around a while, and been behind SK's the whole time, do I look down upon you, shure as hell do, your about 3 feet tall with a tail<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote> Oh believe me, I know who you are.  You were usually the first to point out everything you thought was wrong with the SK class (even abilities that weren't broken, per se.. but you felt were underpowered) and complain about how broken we are.  I'm actually tickled pink to see you've changed your tune! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes, of course gear makes a difference as do your spell upgrades. That's a no brainer, but lets compare apples to apples as opposed to apples to steak sauce.  Similiarly equipped SK and Guardians with fully upgraded spells aren't going to be equal.  Obviously I am a bloody superior tank to a guardian who's poorly equipped.  That's a given! Again, I speak in generalities.  I'm not an "average" SK either.  The average SK, that I'd noticed, tends to complain that we're utterly broken and useless and gods they're going to roll a guardian because *whine* they just can't hold agro/tank.  The average SK, unfortunately, doesn't know how to play, it seems.  I noticed this with my alts.  I always give the SK a chance and time and time again, I have had to tell them how to use their damned abilities because they either won't or don't know how. As much as you all mock statistics, mine aren't *THAT* outrageously different than yours.  Gear makes all the difference there, as well.  We've all said numerous times, on these boards, HOW you play is more important than WHAT you play 9 times out of 10. I'll reiterate.  I've never said an SK is incapable of being a MT.  I wish you all would actually read what I am saying rather than skimming my words then putting different ones into my mouth.  I've said, repeatedly, we ARE capable but it isn't the norm.  I stand up before my guild and SHOW them what I'm worth.  I'm recognized for it, believe it or not.  However, Guardians are chosen in *MOST* situations by *MOST* guilds based on their abilities. Again, SOE even recognizes the disparities.  That's the reason for the combat revamp. You know something's seriously awry when SOE is admitting there's imbalance and unfairness among the classes :p</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 AM</span>

[Rashaak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vTenebrae wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Okay...you know what...I ment disrespect then....<BR><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#9933ff><FONT color=#ff99cc>I knew that in the first place. The condescending snicker when mentioning my race spoke volumes.</FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><BR></FONT>if you are so delusional that you can't see past your own flame, then I don't give a rats [Removed for Content] what you say. You say "post" 45  your not an affective tank because ppl prefer a Guardian over an SK, well thats your opinion, but you've posted in this thread, countering the positive role an SK can have on several different posts. <BR><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc>Where have I said SK are not effective?  I haven't.  So don't put words into my mouth, thank you.  I've merely stated that, post 45 our role is vastly different than it is up to that point.  I've also stated we're still excellent support tanks and can do pretty much anything, in a pinch, due to our versatility.  That being said..</FONT><FONT color=#ff9999><BR></FONT><BR><FONT color=#cc66ff><FONT color=#ff99cc>The intent isn't to counter the positive role an SK can have within a raid or a guild, it's to give a realistic portrayel of the class and it's place as viewed by most guilds and players.  It's not to state that Shadow Knights are worthless or "gimped" it's to offer an honest appraisal of the role we play, generally speaking.  People are marching out the exceptions, rather than the rule.</FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc>That's all well and good.  The SK is a versatile class and </FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><I>can, possibly </I></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc>be used in a MT capacity.  However, that is rarely the case in the "big raids" end game.  Most players and guilds see Shadow Knights as support tanks or, unfortunately, less than that.  I've seen and been around guilds that only accept SKs if they know the person, as they actually see the class as completely useless.  I wish that were an uncommon belief, but it's not. </FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc>These boards are replete with Shadow Knights who complain that people barely even see them as tanks, can't get groups, and/or cannot get guilds to notice them.  Even SoE is saying "oops" about the way they've handled tanks and their abilities.  Even they admit that, woops, they made a terrible mistake and it's come to their attention (months later,mind you) that there is imbalance among the tank classes and most people prefer guardians to tank almost anything and everything.  They've realized that some tanks were not getting the love, as it were and as such were shunted aside.  </FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff99cc>There's a reason the number of guardians since release has boomed.   People who played the support tank roles got sick of being blown off or seen as useless or inferior.  Not everyone felt this way about us, thankfully.  However, far too many did and continue to do so.  If you have a guild or group that willingly gives a chance to SKs or other support tanks and treats them as equal to guardians, that's a wonderful thing.  However, it's still unusual and uncommon.</FONT><BR></FONT><BR>I don't care how big of a supporter you were of the SK when the "nerf" bat struck, or if spells were broken, blah, blah blah, it don't matter. Some one says they MT consistently in 'raids' some say they don't. Big deal, the fact is it sounds to me it is situational.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff99cc>The fact of the matter is, we're dealing with public perception of the Shadow Knight, not an individial "situational" thing.  It's quite true that guardians have abilities and arts that do make them the <I>better </I>choice when it comes to tanking the most difficult encounters.  That doesn't mean SK can't be a choice, it just means that most of the time, a guardian will be chosen.  I applaud those rare guilds that allow Shadow Knights to act as main tank, I think it's wonderful they take a different tack and choose not to do the "easier" thing.  I just recognize that it is, indeed, rare.<BR><BR>It's only situational if we're equal all around, it merely depends on the encounter.  I wish that were the case.  If it were, however, there would be far more guilds with SK playing the MT role and far fewer who relegate shadow knights to the end of the line, as far as classes they even want in their guild.<BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Its obvious you have some deep seeded issues..<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>Disagreeing with you and seeing past the "I'm going to say something incredibly condescending to you, but put some catch phrase in front so that I can get away with it" doesn't mean I have issues.<BR></FONT></P> <P>I gave MY opinion on how I like my SK..<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>I didn't offer him opinions, I gave him general terms and common perceptions of the Shadow Knight.  My OPINION on the matter is entirely different.  I firmly believe that SK can be effective tanks and even take on the role of MT, even though it's a bit of a challenge.  I'm just realistic and notice that the rest of the world, for the most part, doesn't see us that way.  </FONT><SPAN><FONT color=#ff99cc>We  do have fewer taunts, fewer hate generating abilities, and less defensive arts than Guardians.  It's that way by design, for now.<BR></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff99cc>As such it's exceedingly uncommon for most guilds and groups to want an SK as main tank if an equal level guardian is available.  My only  point is to give this person realistic expectations.  If he expects to be MT at all times and to be treated as an equal to a guardian, he's going to be very disappointed and disenchanted with the class.<BR></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff99cc>We have enough people who're saddened by people's perceptions of this class.  We've had enough people quit because they expected something and didn't get it.  We've had far too many become disallusioned with a perfectly good class.. but perhaps not in the manner they wished.  I'm hoping to avoid that with the OP.<BR></FONT></SPAN></P> <P>So, please just take your flying leap out of plane without a parachute, and leave me be.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99cc>I don't wish your death.  I think that's a bit extreme for a message board, don't you?</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <SPAN class=date_text>07-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:25 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>When you sit there and pick at my comments from the get go, telling me "generally" this, and "generally" that, I take offense to that...</P> <P>I gave my view from a 30th lvl SK, when you picked out my response, to say...oh yah, BUT *post 45* is different! I gave you the plain and simple fact that due to your "race" it may not come as easy to you as would for me. It says in the fighter archtype description. </P> <P align=center><FONT color=#cc0000>The following races have a natural affinity to the role of the fighter: Barbarian, Dwarf, Human, Kerra, Ogre, and Troll.<BR><BR>The following races will encounter more challenges as a fighter: Dark Elf, Erudite, Froglok, Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, High Elf, Iksar, <U><STRONG><FONT color=#ccff00>Ratonga</FONT></STRONG></U>, and Wood Elf.</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT color=#cc0000></FONT> </P> <P align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">And I did not mean disrespect intially, but apparently you took offense to it, and started flaming me, for what reason? Because I pointed out a fact? Just as you "generalized" your comment about "post 45", I generalized too. So, if you took offense to my "generalization" oh well (I prolly would of apologized 'cept for the flame). To nit pick on my comments and flame me, does not put you in any better light than me. I stated a "fact" from my point of view, and should of been left at that. No retorical "generalized" comments needed to be made.</FONT> <EM>You say you defend the SK, but it appears to me you put them down in your "generalization".</EM><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> I care nothing for what other ppl think of the SK. They don't play SK, and have no real clue what they really can do, and take it on word of mouth that SK's are gimped. Your "generalization" does nothing to support the SK, and only demeans our role even more, because not only do SK's read these forums, other classes do too. I don't raid with my SK, so I don't speak about what an SK can do in a raid. I'm not lvl 50 so I don't speak about what an SK can do then. I spoke from where my SK is, plane and simple fact.</FONT></FONT></P> <DIV>My last statement to you may of been a bit harsh, so I will apologize for that part. Obviously, you a very touchy person, and take things way to personal. Just don't flame me when there is no need for it. You got stuck on me saying "no disrespect" and thats the only thing you keyed in on, and flamed me on it. You took my comment towards you way to personally. That, to me, tells me you have some deep seeded issues, especially if you think a "condescending snicker" is "hehheh". I will not sit here and defend my self on HOW I should speak to you, but your "generalization" does nothing but strengthen the "myth" that SK's are crap. You show such passion when you speak about YOUR sk, and what you've been able to accomplish with your SK, no generalization is needed. Your SK is lvl 50, you couldn't of gotten there if you were "gimped", so speak on how you were able to acheive that. This isn't a topic on what OTHER non-SK's think of our class, this topic was on what current SK's think of their class and what they can do. So "generalized" comments only hinder the topic at hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. If you think this was a flame, it was not. So, if you took offense... *shrug* Nothing I can do about it, i guess. </DIV>

[BabyBrea]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>I didn't read through every post written hear so forgive if I missed something.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>I Main Tank all of the time. On top on that, I use a Two-Handed over a One-Handed/Shield Combination. In my personal experience, I've had little difference with using one over the other.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>Now admittedly, my equipment has always been of the best quality and I am always better outfitted than my group unless they use the same things I do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>My Two-Handed Weapons are always Fabeled Claymores as well, for the 30-40 range I had the Pulsing Claymore of Control and now I have a Glittering Claymore. My testing did NOT involve a Fabled 1-handed / Fabled Shield combo so that may be why I seem to be equally defensive no matter which I use.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>I just don't understand really why so many people think an SK can't tank. Personally I feel it's mostly your skill with the class, your armor/items, and your skill upgrades. Obviously someone with a few Master/Adept III spells will be able to influence the tide of battle better than someone with Apprentice versions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>It's all those little factor that draw the whole picture. I believe an SK can tank very well and I've seen Paladins higher than me die to creatures I can handle with relative ease. I just think it all comes down to who has the better skills, equipment, and experience.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff66ff>Again, I didn't read every post so if someone mentioned this I apologize in advance.</FONT></DIV>

[vTenebr]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><font color="#ffff33"><b><span>Rashaak wrote:<p align="left"><font face="Comic Sans MS">. I don't raid with my SK, so I don't speak about what an SK can do in a raid. I'm not lvl 50 so I don't speak about what an SK can do then. I spoke from where my SK is, plane and simple fact.</font></p></span></b></font><p>This is you, right?  <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=191416107">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=191416107</a></p><p>You're a level 30 Shadow Knight.  At level 30 I thought I was a god.  At level 27, just a few short months ago.. you thought we were gimped and ready to quit.</p><p>Look on the boards, I would debate with people who'd complain how much SK sucked and/or were gimped.  At level 30, the differences weren't quite so obvious between guardians and SKs.  It was a subtle difference that, if you played your class well, no one would care whether the tank were an SK, Guardian, or even a monk.. so long as the player knew what the hell they were doing. So, you don't raid with your SK, haven't been exposed to it's capabilities and comparisons with Guardians in this way..But you "know" what we're capable of.And, by acknowledging that our strengths lie elsewhere (DPS, Debuffs) I am somehow demeaning the SK?How is it that, by saying we're better suited to another role, that demeans the class and gives other classes the wrong impression?  You honestly believe other classes come here to make their decisions about what SK can and cannot do?  You're mad.  I don't go to the defiler boards to decide what they can do.  I base my information on what I see and note from experience.Based on experience, again.. since you're not reading this, while it is POSSIBLE for an SK to MT.. it's EASIER and more efficient for guardians to do so. They're specifically designed that way.  SoE even screwed the abilities up and skewed it so badly they have to go back and fix it.  These are facts.  Not just generalizations about everyone's perceptions, they're generalizations based on classes and abilities.  They're generalizations because, it's not because guilds are narrow minded that they don't use SKs as MT that often, it's because they're better suited to be support and off tanks.It's not difficult to MT in groups.  Even in x2 encounters.  I did those quite well for 50 levels, thank you very much.  So please, spare me the degradation about my racial choice.  I'm decently equipped thank you and my stats aren't quite as horrific as you're deciding to believe. </p><p>Level 50 Barbarian Shadow Knight:  <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=114422102">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=114422102</a></p>Level 50 Ratonga Shadow Knight (me):  <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=117657102">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=117657102</a><span class="field_name_small"></span><span class="field_data_small"></span><p>Do you really think the differences are that amazing?  Hell,  at the time I looked.. I come out on top.  (he's the first barb SK I saw online last night that actually let you see their profile).</p><p>I *can* stand toe to toe with raid mobs but it's better and more mana efficient for a bloody guardian who has defense buffs out the wazoo to do so.  In raiding situations, it's exceedingly uncommon for SK to act as MT.  This isn't me being down on the shadow knight, this is 6 months at level 50 in raids watching how it works and trying things out in various situations. </p><p>I'm not trying to be rude here, but you're speaking from experiences you don't actually have.  It's all well and good that we can MT in groups, but I wasn't just talking about groups.  I know we can MT in groups.  I've seen monks act as MT.  However, I don't think of single group experience hunts as MT situations.  I think I was in maybe... 2 groups in 50 levels that had more than 1 tank.  So it was a non-issue.  So when discussing MT, I think multiple group situations wherein you'll have many tanks and only 1 can be "The Main Tank"Just because some <i>rare </i>guilds go against the grain and have SK as MT, that doesn't make it any less rare.Nor does that mean my role as a support tank/main assist is any less important.  By downplaying our strengths you don't do us any favors either.  In fact, by downplaying the area we excel you completely ignore the finest parts of BEING a shadow knight.  I may not be able to go toe to toe straight on as well as a guardian, but I can do more to assist my raid, as a whole, and hurt that mob than he can.  Frankly, I think that's better than being a mindless meat shield.</p><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 AM</span>

[Rashaak]

<P>/groan!</P> <P>Are you still having this same discussion with me? My goodness...you really like to have the last word don't you!</P> <P>So...tell me how you think at lvl 27 I thought i was gimped?? I have never thought I was gimped, I enjoy my SK, and anything and everything he CAN do. In fact I never thought I was a god, i consider myself better than that, and always have.</P> <P>The simple fact of the matter is, like I said in previous posts, that I gave my opinion based off what I can do at this point. You pin pointed my comment to the original question given. I did not need any retorical "generalization" of what guilds/raids/groups prefer, and what an SK's role "usually" is. Yes I know they are probably better at MA rather than MT at lvl 50, but I can't speak of that, because I'm not there. I don't care what "usually" happens, and am well aware the role of the guardian is to be the "meat shield".</P> <P>IF you've forgotten what the original discussion was about, here it is:</P> <P align=center><FONT color=#ccff00>Do you MT most of the time?  <BR><BR>Does your group suffer as the result of a SK MT?<BR><BR>Do you go S/B when tanking, if so how well does a kite sheild work for you?<BR><BR><BR>Comming back to the game, want to tank, want more flavor than Guardian.....hoping SK fits the bill!</FONT></P><FONT color=#ccff00> <P align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>This is what he was asking for! He did not want to know what "usually" occurs at higher levels, he hasn't even started his SK yet, possibly has by now, if he chose that role. He did not want to know "generally" the role of the SK! He wanted to know personal opinions from everyone, which is what I gave him. You post in comment to mine, saying "post 45" crap! I DONT CARE ABOUT "POST 45" I am not there yet. But since you decided to post a retorical comment to mine, I stated a fact that quite possibly could be part of the reason, and that is your "race" not being well suited for that role, does that make you any less than an SK than me, no! In fact even someone else posted that being a ratonga could possibly affect groups/raids decision on who is MT. I am simply stating, that I may end up having a better shot at MT in higher levels as I do now, I may not...</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>You know what...I'm tired of this, so, please, keep to the discussion originally posted, or go post somewhere else. If need be PM me for crying out loud if you really want to debate this further!</FONT></P> <P align=left><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT><BR></P> <P align=left> </P> <P align=left>p.s. Answer me this...If you formed a group and had a "Gnome Guardian" and an "Ogre Shadow Knight", what would be optimal/realistic choice?</P></FONT>

[vTenebr]

<div></div><span><blockquote>Rashaak wrote:<p>/groan!</p> <p>Are you still having this same discussion with me? My goodness...you really like to have the last word don't you! </p> <p><font color="#ff99cc"><font color="#ff99ff">It has nothing to do with "last word" which you just attempted to have yourself.  Interesting that when I defend my position it's "trying to get the last word", but when you retort it's perfectly acceptable defense of your position.</font> </font></p> <p>So...tell me how you think at lvl 27 I thought i was gimped?? I have never thought I was gimped, I enjoy my SK, and anything and everything he CAN do. In fact I never thought I was a god, i consider myself better than that, and always have. </p> <p><font color="#ff99ff">In this thread: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=9117#M9117 , you do say.. and I quote:  "</font><font color="#ff99ff">I think I may just delete my SK, he doesn't seem to be worth while, and definately is not fun to play anymore."  </font><font color="#ff99ff">That was just 4 months and 3 levels ago for you.  While it's nice to see you've changed your tune, it doesn't change the fact that you thought the class had issues.</font></p> <p>The simple fact of the matter is, like I said in previous posts, that I gave my opinion based off what I can do at this point. You pin pointed my comment to the original question given. I did not need any retorical "generalization" of what guilds/raids/groups prefer, and what an SK's role "usually" is. Yes I know they are probably better at MA rather than MT at lvl 50, but I can't speak of that, because I'm not there. I don't care what "usually" happens, and am well aware the role of the guardian is to be the "meat shield".</p> <p>IF you've forgotten what the original discussion was about, here it is:</p> <p align="center"><font color="#ccff00">Do you MT most of the time?  </font></p> <div align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">And that changes my answer of "no" and an explanation of what we're capable of, why?  Why would reiterating a quetion I answered change the fact that for the past 6 months I do not MT on a regular basis.  I've been 50 for a much longer period than I spent leveling up, why would I say I MT on a regular basis when that isn't the case, nor is it what I see on a regular basis?  You're referring to a very brief time in an SK's life, for the most part.  Not everyone will sit at level 25-30 for 3 or 4 months.  Not everyone will game the way I do, either.  This is presenting opposing viewpoints which you insuate are wrong and detrimental to the class.. without having any first hand knowledge.</font> </div> <p align="center"><font color="#ccff00">Does your group suffer as the result of a SK MT?</font></p> <div align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">Group?  No.  I've stated that as well.  Raid force, it's a bit trickier to keep an SK up so most opt for the easy route and choose a guardian.</font> </div> <p align="center"><font color="#ccff00">Do you go S/B when tanking, if so how well does a kite sheild work for you?</font></p> <div align="left"><font color="#ff99cc">I<font color="#ff99ff">t's the only kind of shield we can use.  Why wouldn't it work for us?  However, if off tanking, I prefer to use my prismatic for the DPS and power regen.</font></font> </div> <p align="center"><font color="#ccff00">Comming back to the game, want to tank, want more flavor than Guardian.....hoping SK fits the bill! </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">And this is where I explained what, exactly, SK turn out to be.  This is why I explained the virtues of the class as main assist and support tanks.  I *was* answering his question.  Most people try to see the WHOLE of the class... not just the period as you level up.  That's a finite period.  Unless you hit "disable combat experience" eventually you will hit the max level, and then what?  My purpose was to explain what to expect when one finally matured as a Shadow Knight, not just the short time while one is leveling. </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ccff00"><font color="#ff99cc"><font color="#ff99ff">Again, how did I not answer his question?  I figured he *wanted* to know what to expect with a shadow knight.  If he went in thinking he was going to be MT, he'd be happy as a clam.. then at level 50, he MIGHT be in for a disappointment.  That's why I extolled our virtues in the role we're well suited for, at the "climax" of the game, as it were.  You decided that I was a terrible person and demeaning to the SK class.</font> </font></font></p> <font color="#ccff00"> <p align="left"><font color="#ffffff">But since you decided to post a retorical comment to mine, I stated a fact that quite possibly could be part of the reason, and that is your "race" not being well suited for that role, does that make you any less than an SK than me, no! In fact even someone else posted that being a ratonga could possibly affect groups/raids decision on who is MT. I am simply stating, that I may end up having a better shot at MT in higher levels as I do now, I may not... </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff99ff">You didn't even look at the stats, did you?  You continue to spout how I simply must be inferior, stat wise.. when that's just not the case at all.  I measure up quite well against "big" tanks for the most part.  Look at the stats again before you tell me how I'm SO inferior to barbarians.</font> </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ffffff">You know what...I'm tired of this, so, please, keep to the discussion originally posted, or go post somewhere else. If need be PM me for crying out loud if you really want to debate this further!</font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">That's all I've been doing.  Just because you have decided that only your answer is the correct one and that any dissenting opinion is "off topic" does not make it the case.  I was explaining the role of an SK and what to expect.  Being MT for the 3 months that I was leveling shouldn't be the basis which someone builds a character they plan to stick with, perhaps for years. </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">Before the expansion comes out, I will have been a level 50 SK for approximately 8-10 months.   Which would be more important to me.. knowing that for 3 months I was as good as a Guardian.. or that for 10 months my role was *insert first post I made in this thread*?</font>  </p> <p align="left">p.s. Answer me this...If you formed a group and had a "Gnome Guardian" and an "Ogre Shadow Knight", what would be optimal/realistic choice? </p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">With equal gear?  How good are they?  Do either of them have a reputation?  There's a lot more that I'd look at than race/class combination when choosing someone to group with.  If similarly equipped, I'd choose the Guardian because it IS easier for them to hold agro in groups.  </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">If you choose people to play with based solely on race/class no wonder you have it stuck that, because you're a barbarian, it automatically makes you superior to me.   In a side by side comparison, I'm neck in neck with the barbarian.  The differences are miniscule, especially when one considers these are unbuffed stats and not reflecting the gear I actually wear, at the moment.  </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">When *self buffed* I get 174 str/170 sta.  With some minor buffs, I get over 200/200.. I've gone as high as 300 str/280 sta.  Depends on the buffs.  Once your stats are over 200, it really doesn't make a difference <b><i>at all</i></b>.  Post 200 to your stats, you get diminishing returns on what the stat will do for you. </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">So.. the race, as has been said repeatedly on this board, is totally neglible when you factor in gear and the skill of the person playing it.  I'd be willing to bet I'd still be better than a Barb SK who barely knew the class and what we're capable of doing. </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">I would choose a player, not a race.  That's narrow minded thinking and doesn't take much into consideration other than "oh he's big, he MUST be good". </font></p> <p align="left"><font color="#ff99ff">Gods know that isn't the case.  I've been with plenty of HORRIBLE "big" tanks and some gnomes, dark elves, ratonga, and erudites who rocked my socks. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p> </font><hr></blockquote></span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[DUNN]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rashaak wrote<FONT color=#ccff00> <P align=left>p.s. Answer me this...If you formed a group and had a "Gnome Guardian" and an "Ogre Shadow Knight", what would be optimal/realistic choice?</P></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV>Leave the mouse alone!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>She never said anything that is not true and you under 50 sk don't talk till you have done what the litlle mouse has done.  Again i and many have said that we can tank just others do it better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The guardian hands down. why you may ask?  I can do more damage and he holds aggro better LOL. In groups what matters  is damage and holding aggro LOL.</DIV></DIV>

[Bron]

Our main guardian tank had to take a 3.5 week break so during this time I've stepped up as the main raid MT.  I've tanked all the hardest mobs in the game (Nagalik, Vox with her "new" adds, Kra'Thux, etc. etc.) over this span and emerged victorious.  My gear is very good, but there's nothing insane in there (i.e. though my guild has killed 90% of the contested mobs on the server that have ever spawned, we've still never seen a bangle of invulnerability.  I think there's a guardian on some server who has a pair of these things, that's just nuts).  Just need a solid group setup and need the rest of the raid force to do their jobs.  As said before, we CAN tank anything and win, just not as easily as an equally equipped/skilled guardian. <div></div>

[Moonwood]

<P>Hi Darkbrood, welcome back.  </P> <P>I play a 38th level Ogre Shadow Knight on L. D'Lere server.  When grouping, I estimate I am MT about 90% of the time - pretty much always in a random/pickup group situtation.  If I am with a Guardian and/or a Paladin or any other tank-type close in level, we pretty much put our shields on and compare hitpoints, mitigation/avoidance lvl and whoever is highest, MTs.  Heh heh, I know it doesn't sound very scientific, but for regular groups it seems to work just fine :smileyhappy:  </P> <P>All of my spells/abilities are at the Adept 1 level.  My gear is decent but probably not the best available, (what can I say, I'm just a casual player; )  StilI, I can't say I have ever had much difficulty holding the line in groups and believe me, I have grouped with more than a few testosterone-charged wizards over the seasons!  So basically yes, at least to this point, I have to say that I am satisfied with my ability to MT - I do it often and I have never had much trouble performing the job.  </P> <P>I can't comment on the later part of the game when folks do big epic raids, etc as I have not experienced that yet.  However, my understanding from reading these boards and chatting with people in-game is that it is usually a Guardian who handles the MT role in raid situations although other classes like us, Berzerkers or Paladins for example have enjoyed successes as well when given the opportunity.  I hope you enjoy your SK or whatever fighter role you ultimately decide on, Good luck !</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[pawnipt]

as a SK i realize they are crappy tanks, only because there defence buff doesnt Stack with anything, So it takes more to get there avoidance up to 100%. a Nice group settup for a SK to main tank is a Guardian with all group buffs up, a Warden with duststorm up, and a troubador with his defensive buffs up ect (these three right here effectively give the SK 100% avoidance, and the guardian gives alittle mitigation) Then i would want a Templar and a Paladin for more mitigation buffs that stack.  With this settup the whole group would probly have 100% avoidance lol.. I've tanked Zalak with 3 healers before, mind you these healers were knowing what they were doing they had to spam me pretty much till zalaks main adds where dead... then it was smooth sailing from there, i never lost agro once , even with zalaks stuns on me every once in awhile.. (this was before Zalak's healer adds did a massive magic AOE, now i just off tank the healer adds before they get to zalak) Another thing to know about holding agro as a SK is Despoiling Mist, sure it cost alot of mana, but its like a second group taunt , ya can hold adds easy with that and your group taunt (breeze is a life saver too, SK's are mana [Removed for Content]) My beef with the SK class is there defensive buffs just do not stack, and it is certainly not fair that a Guardian can reach 100% avoidance while grouped with just a troubador (i heard guardians will be nerfed with combat revamp, i hope this is true cuz its dumb That they can stack every buff up for major avoidance) either nerf guardians or make it so SK's buffs stack!!! Dude even my Calculated evasion AGI buff doesnt even stack with Unholy Strength AGI buff, lol Why does calculated evasion even have a AGI buff if it doesnt give the SK AGI !?@!?!?!?!!!!!!! <div></div>