Combat Update Issues, Thoughts?..

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Well the long awaited Combat Changes is imminant ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts , Issues?...  Will the update help us any?.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things i knowticed while serfing boards...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Spells and Skills will not Scroll with Lv. Soooo .. that is a Big nerf on the Kite Sheild of Domination (+5 Zeal) .. will be a useless stat, as it will not effect abilities at all.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) All Tank DPS will  take a movement downward and We will be on the same teir with Bezerkers. Guards and Pallies will take a Bigger DPS hit than SKs. SKs and Zerks may not move much. (altho i think we should do more dps than them, to balance their taunt ability and group buffs >&lt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Mages and Scouts will recive a DPS Boost. Hope they boost our tuants >< ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Wards will be Fixed, to apply Mitigation properly. Thank u HUGE threads on the shaman boards  <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seens that SOE has opted to use the DPS Rankings from EQ1 .. Too bad it took them almost a year to do it .. DUHH ><,,</DIV> <DIV>I think it will be good .. Pallies will be Def. buffed into a more MTing role i think. but unsure .. rumors in Pallie forums.</DIV> <DIV>And if power is indeed decreased it will help us alot. And Ward being fixed will be nice (i may ACTUALLY CAST my T5 Master ward on myself >&lt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thought?.. Comments??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy Izbad</DIV> <DIV>50/50 SK/Armorer</DIV>

[Leatherface77]

<P> Well If its not done right many people will leave the game. The price for rares will soar ad having two fighters to a group anymore will be unheard of. I have mixed feelings about It honestly and hope it goes well. I think Its going to make some fighter subclasses less wanted in groups. </P> <P>Just my thoughts</P>

[Margen]

<DIV>I am trying to keep an open mind.... Really, but what little we know, I not to hopeful.  Having mulitiple tanks will be a hinderance to a group/raid now, and can anyone answer this, why would a group/raid pick a Shadow Knight over a pally/guardian?  Sony has basicly said that fighters have a single role now, tanking, so we will have really no versatility to bring to a group.  Group takes one tank, Raid maybe two, rest sit and polish armor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Don't get me wrong we shouldn't be doing assasin/warlock type damgage, but tied for 15th in damage <shudder>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>V/R</DIV> <DIV>Blackoath</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>I hope Sony remember for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction.</P> <P>Bezerkers should out dmg us, matter of fact no tank should do as much dmg as they do, the problem is their defence does not drop in preportion to their offense during these times,  being bezerk should be like a on and off switch,  off, I can tank some, on, I kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] but I hope I dont get hit.   We should be offensively DPS wise above Guardian, Paladin and a Zerker in off mode but under Zerker in Dmg mode and brawlers, but we have bouts of spike dmg sorta like the Assassion but naturaly not on their scale.</P> <P>As for us, I hope they understand what it means to be a Shadow Knight, we arnt nice, we don't think honorably, we fight dirty and for some of us, we aint pretty.</P> <P>I am a Troll so we all know they are the king of studdly.</P> <P>But what we lack in Tanking we should make up for in crippling attacks and debuffs.</P> <P>My hope is since some Traits are now going to be useless and some abilities will no longer work to enhance our shields that we will get a replacement that will help us in other ways such as the formentioned crippling and debuffing attacks and my hope is that they will drop the HT down so we at least have some spike dmg as a standard in our fighting.</P> <P>My fear is that the development team has never played any pen and paper games like DnD and have no clue what it takes to make a proper group and a true dungeon crawl.</P> <P>There should be a standard of about 2 tanks in every group unless you are farming a easier zone not up to your lvl.</P> <P>I think the major issue is Enviromental in nature.   The should be no such thing as one tank holding agro on more then 3 mobs, get in big fight in RL and see how that works.  If they fix how Taunting and Holding agro should work we should see a standard of two Tanks per group.   </P> <P>One of the other issues is they have us all so watered down we are not as highly specialized enough to be Tanks that can actualy comploment each others different tanking abilities.</P> <P>Heh I find myself in a situation here, on EQ I had mapped out up to 2 years in advance at a shot how it would move with upgrades and nerfs and was pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] acurate.   But in EQ2 I find myself not clueless as to what they will do but not far from it.  </P> <P>They have a system here that is incredable compared to the old one but they don't seem to know it and are not taking advantage of it.  So for now they have a great system that is heavily underused and has class's that are very watered down.   I have a hard time guessing what they will do.</P> <P>My hope is they hired some pen and paper RPGer or some brain child and we will see somthing exciting happen with the changes. </P>

[YummiOger]

<P>Deadjester has several good points, however i must disagree with his first. Zerks should not do more damage over any given time period than a SK.  </P> <P>Given Zerks abilities to Tuant Better , No Weapon restriction, More Hps , More Defense, and no Sheild resriction, They are the "TANK" between a SK and Zerker class. For balancing perposes a SK Should do more damage than a Zerk, otherwise, a Zerk would be like 100% better than a SK. And that is unacceptable <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>BUT, this is not a Zerk Vs SK thread (or is it .. muhahwhawww!!)</P> <P>Another Point i thought of.. </P> <P>With the Decrease in Tank DPS, the Nerfing of Defense (Mitigation and Aviod Caps) and the Rumored Increase in Mob Challenge (poss more Hps, more Mob DPS), Will there be room for a Off tank ?? If Mobs indeed are getting a boost and PCs getting a Def nerf, Will the group MT be able to handle 2/3 heroic mobs beating on him?.. Or will all groups just pick Gards?.. Will SKs be Valued as a Group MT due to there higher DPS while grinding?..</P> <P>Yummy</P> <P>50/50</P>

[yzyh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>There should be a standard of about 2 tanks in every group unless you are farming a easier zone not up to your lvl.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That would be a really bad thing. I remember in EQ1. WHen you were lvl50+. To start an EXP group almost verywere you needed to find, a cleric, a tank, a lower. It was freaking long and painless to get a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I play a game I want to be able to get a group of friendly players and start killing right now. I hate beeing forced to wait an hour to find some specifiq class. sometime I even have a hard time to find 1 tank. Sometimes I do ave 3 tank in my group too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>I played EQ since it came out, I never remember there ever being a shortage of tanks, but I have seen shortages of other class's.</P> <P>I remember due to the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] 1 tank per group mentality that many groups were fighting with 4 or 5 people in them while other tanks sat on the side lines with LFG up.   That was <STRONG>STILL</STRONG> going on in Omens of War befor I left.</P> <P>The problem is there is not enought Tank Combat Utility going  on.</P> <P>Combat Utility will further seperate us from the stale Tanking Vs DPS retardedness <STRONG>AND </STRONG>Combat Utility can stack with multi Tanks in a group where with one Tank, Tanking there is only one effect going on and non stackable.</P> <P>Our DPS <STRONG>IS </STRONG>going to drop.   We should be pushing for a Combat Utility that will gives us brutal AoEs and Cripplings effects that will reduce our enemy and make us wanted for that will stack with other tanks tanking in groups and in raids.   Ask for more syphion effects that will gives us the abiltiy to drain power for ourselves and our groups.   Wards that are bigger but mitigtat based on our AC and only mitigate 35% of the dmg coming in so it will lessen the blows and stretch how long they last so the proc effects on them will work.</P> <P>That is what I am talking about, usfuless and the power to really make us tanks again with some DPS just not God DPS that other will contantly want nerfed</P> <P> </P>

[JRav]

<P>What I am hoping for most is that they make us the best in at least one category, so at least we may be desired in small groups. Possibilities are...</P> <P>1) Lifetaps- If they improve these we could be really good at healing ourselves + some damage output in the process (whereas pallys are good at healing themselves and also the ability to heal others, sorry if Im a bit ignorant of paladin heals as Im not sure on the timer and exact numbers). Also, making them impossible to resist or so that they would resist a lot less would be nice.</P> <P>2) Agro- I see no reason why Shadowknights should not have at least second best agro, especially if zerkers remain kings at it after the changes. We are on the same damage tier as they are, after all. This could be a matter of just adjusting a few taunts, Pariahs Mark for example.</P> <P>3) Wards- This has already been mentioned and if the new ward system is good, up to an 800 pt ward is a lot nicer.</P> <P>These are my personal hopes, in addition to remaining roughly in the center of tank dps. There is more than one way to tank good. Just my 2 cents.</P>

[yzyh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JRav wrote:<BR> <P>What I am hoping for most is that they make us the best in at least one category, so at least we may be desired in small groups. Possibilities are...</P> <P>1) Lifetaps- If they improve these we could be really good at healing ourselves + some damage output in the process (whereas pallys are good at healing themselves and also the ability to heal others, sorry if Im a bit ignorant of paladin heals as Im not sure on the timer and exact numbers). Also, making them impossible to resist or so that they would resist a lot less would be nice.</P> <P>2) Agro- I see no reason why Shadowknights should not have at least second best agro, especially if zerkers remain kings at it after the changes. We are on the same damage tier as they are, after all. This could be a matter of just adjusting a few taunts, Pariahs Mark for example.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If they made these change. Sk would be very very overpowered as for tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about it. If your life tap would be betther at healing yourself. You could be able to take way more dmg then a guardian or a zerker. If you could also have second best aggro as main tank. Sk would be the very top1 tanker class in game with the ability to do DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but ATM I must agree their is unbalance betwin the Sk and the Berzeker. Zerker shouldn't be able to take more dmg then SK, having a betther agro and same DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like someone already said. on berzeker stance yeah Zerker should have betther DpS then SK. But they shouldn't be able to main tank while doing this kind of DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berzeker stance should be something like losing all ability to tank But having DPS close to monk/bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Defene stance should be tanking ability close to guardian but DPS even lower then a  guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ATM they have the best of both world. ATM berzeker are the top1 tanking class for grouping.</DIV>

[bestbuy]

Whens the update? gettin me excited to see what goes on. <div></div>

[Deadjest]

<DIV>  I could be wrong but from what I understand there is no set date, it will be ready when its ready seems to be the stance they are taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with that but it would be nice to see somthing like a progress report now and then on how they are doing and what things are looking like, even if they have to change what they have done in the next report.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least we will be some what informed which will give some peace of mind.   Though on the negitive side it would give the crying brians a chance to have Whine Fest 2005 per report they didnt like.</DIV>

[Genag]

<DIV>If I understood correctly combat changes will come in two steps. First have to be published before datatadisk will come. A second update will be released with datadisk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In first step all abilities, spells and skills should be revamped. In second step some other and non-specified chages in combat will be applied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is all I know. I think that first step should come in a near future because it is allready connected to released AP2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>My concern is that, EQ2 has the coding for a Combat System that has a VERY HIGH portenial and as of right now is very underused and my concern is that it will remain that way due to the fact they don't realize what they have here.</P> <P>Tanking vs DPS alone will not do it for making class balance and roles and generaly the pride in being different but effective as Tank.</P> <P>With the hard coding they already have in place with some tweeking to the class, Combat Utility can take us to the next lvl in our roles and put this game in a rank far above whats already out there.</P> <P>So my concern is that they will tweek the class's based on the simple methods that are already in place and we will have a better but still lack luster system.</P> <P> </P>

[Rylight]

<DIV>I just wanna restate that having 2 tanks average for each group is a VERY BAD, AND BORING IDEA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not trying to rant on the person who said that, im just saying that its a very boring game when you get two tanks in a group usually. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. it takes up a space where a dps or healer is far more needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. somebody is going to be bored,  and that is usually the off-tank. honestly I dont mind fighting behind a guardian sometimes when he is taking damage and I am focusing on being a dps fighter, but after awhile it gets really boring not doing the job you were primarly based for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. any group should be able to have at least 1 of the four classes to be very functional. the reality is however that you need one tank, one healer, and one dps, whether it be mage or scout. the point being is that 2 tanks just is not needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. 2 tanks equal boredem. when you have one tank the entire group is focused on what the one tank does and doesnt do, when you have 2 tanks the group is more relaxed and it really takes away the glory from the one tank, I mean all it takes is one tank to do his job</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways this post isnt even about that , so im going to cut my self short, besides I need to make an sk related post</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>I find one tank pure boredom.</P> <P>Its the same process over and over again, nit one pearl two, nit one pearl two.  You can really tell how boring it is with one tank when people stop talking on voice chat cause nothing exciting is going on and its turning more into a xp grind and people go on bot mode.   The only time it gets exciting is when the tank gets so bored he miss'es some taunts or does it on purpose cause he is bored as I have known some to do on my alts and everyone wakes up as mobs are beating on all sorts of people.</P> <P>But with the number of mobs you can hold agro on being more limited it makes the off tank scrambling to get agro on the remaining mobs.</P> <P>But I have done the one Tank System since EQL first came out and have now mastered pulling and tanking while watching TV.   Hell only time I have ever had it rough was when I was pulling, tanking, watching TV and trying to keep control of a king chilie dawg with all the works.</P> <P>EQ two its even easier,  once you get agro, eat your king dawg with the works with one hand and mouse tap with the other.    Even the local short bus kind down the street is a one handed bandit tank now.</P>

[Bruener]

<DIV>Rylight you are still thinking about 2 tanks in a group with the current set-up.....yes it is boring.  I believe the poster that brought this idea up was thinking of how SOE could change encounters to <U><EM>require</EM></U> 2 tanks.  Like having 2 MT's instead of having a MT and an off-tank/dps.  If they could change encounters somehow to require that 2 tanks need to be doing their job in order for the group to survive, or at least to raise the chance of success a lot it would make the day to day grouping much more exciting.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Exactly Bru!</P> <P>The biggest problem with Tanks is the present <STRONG>Combat Utility</STRONG> which is watered down as you can get and still be called a seperate class and <STRONG>Combat Enviroment</STRONG>.</P> <P>The presnt combat system needs to change in these two areas for class balance as well making things more challanging for group play.   The absured idea of one tank holding agro on 6 mobs, wiggs me hard on the logical lvl.   Thats akin to putting 2 ton betty in charge of a weight program for everyone.</P> <P>But change is what I am talking about, those two things need to change to give us room to seperate our class's more.  DPS vs Tanking only is very limited in what you can do with it and keeps the system very watered down.</P> <P>The SK in EQL was some what broken but you <STRONG>FELT </STRONG>like a <STRONG>Evil Knight!</STRONG></P> <P> </P>

[Rylight]

oh when you put it like that, I get what you are talking about, funny thing is I just posted something of that exact nature like 2 mintues ago,

[Deadjest]

<P>lol, sorry if I was not more clear earlier, been posting here and there and after a bit they seem to run together and you forget where you are on seperate posts.</P> <P>I do apologize for that.</P> <P>=)</P>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Happy 4rth of July Guys <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the main downfalls to the combat enviroment that I have knoticed is the lack of "Jobs" within the group... Most all classes (Exept maby Enchanters) either fill Tank, Healer, DPS.. How hard is that?... not very 8/ ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really miss the "Pulling" aspect of the game for EQ1.. That waz vital in many areas and SKs', Bards', and Monks' key areas of there group/class dynamic. Added a whole aspect to the game that i persoanlly enjoyed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mayby that ties back into the Utility issue. And i have thoughts on that ...</DIV> <DIV>Utility .. Is there enough of it to warrent a 2nd tank?.. not ATM.. Should there? H3ll yes!</DIV> <DIV>SKs were stuck in the middle tank in EQ1 for like 5 years, Yes it Sucks ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets Say Zerks and SKs  develope some utilities in diff aspects of the group dynamic..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerks have Group Haste,  Group HPs, Group Mitigation, Strong DPS, Snap Taunt, strong addidtions to the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do SKs have?... hmm ,.,. well .. we get a single target Str/Stam/Agil buff ... </DIV> <DIV>Ideas on SKs: Well Zerks seem to have all the Physical stuff wraped up, Give SKs a Power Drain spell that drains like 200 power and ditributes 100 power to all group members. Or make the Str/Stam/Agil buff a group buff, Or +500 to all resists for Group. Make Pulling mean something, That way Graven Embrace (supposidly a "Class Defineing Ability") will actually do something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way the 2hndary tank idea will work is if there is enough desire for that slot to be filled by searching groups. Hum Drum 2nd tank = No Group, and 1 Tank per group.. boring . boooorrrringggg ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i say Put PULLING back into the game .. that actually requires a little skill .. not just buttion mashing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>