THe Problem with SKs

[Oneira]

<font color="#ffff66">Is that they are the coolest, most evil killers in Norrath, and playing one is so tempting. But alas, I read and read, and the conclusion I come to (I who started a Guardian and know how good a Guardian can be at soloing and tanking both). . .is that SKs really have issues.  Lifetaps don't compare to Pally heals for one big one.  And with the upcoming combat changes (whenever that will be), if I remember correctly for defensive ability (read: tanking) it will go something like this: Guardian>Paladin>Berserker>Shadowknight>Monk>Bruiser. But if the SKs ability is and will therefore be more offensive, then tell me please, what is the difference between a Zerker and an SK?  Zerkers have good offense, equal armor, the best aggro holding skills, and great hit points.  Comparing SKs and Guardians may not be so appropriate, but SKs and Zerkers?  Aren't Zerkers beating SKs at their own game? Enlighten me. </font><div></div>

[Exmortis_MT]

<DIV>you ask an unanswerable question, you pose the ideal of moorgards post on what will, not what is.  Then you pose a questions on said changes that are not here.  How can one answer?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I so rarely see any zerkers since the STR changes that I have no idea how they fit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Possibly when said changes arrive we could better answer your question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SKs/Zerkers will be the flexitank from my understanding.  Decent tankage with good dps, right inbetween monk and guard.  I see few changes for us, hopefully last of the fixes for skills will come and a tweak of taps, maybe heal as much as they do in damage would be nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over we are now looken like a decent class, just need minor tweaks, like so many other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 AM</span>

[Oneira]

Alright then let me rephrase.   How does an SK compare to a Zerker now?  Does the SK offer decent tankage with good dps?  And does the dps of an SK compare favorably with, say, a monk?  by favorably i mean almost equal. <div></div>

[far]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oneira wrote:<BR>Alright then let me rephrase.   How does an SK compare to a Zerker now?  Does the SK offer decent tankage with good dps?  And does the dps of an SK compare favorably with, say, a monk?  by favorably i mean almost equal.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does sk dps compare with a monk... currently no, after the changes, no, monks will always deal more dps unless they are slacking (which in raids they are prone to do so as not to pull aggro from ma).</P> <P>Sk dps compared to a zerker is 30ish pts higher, but we have all of one group buff compared to the multiples zerkers get. Hence they have a better aggro generation to power consumption rate, as well as max hp buff making them a more desirable tank due to a higher max hp and aggroing multiple mobs through group buffs, as well as having access to tower shields giving them a slight AC advantage as well, and more versitile spells (sks pretty much just deal damage).</P> <P>SKs make good xp grinding tanks and soloing/duoing, if you ignore the fact they bring very little in the way of group buffage (hence we tend not to make those around us better the way other tank classes do). </P> <P>What makes us good at tanking single targets, a plus defense buff and our tainted line of spells which lowers the mobs attack giving a nice 3 to 4 level differance between the mob and yourself, and a reasonable 3 min pet</P> <P>What makes us bad, not alot of group buffs to not only improve group performace but to aggro multiple mobs, very bad power consumption rates rendering certain spells to the back of the spell book and off the hotbar, spell scaling from app 1 to master 1 is screwy on several spells (although this is not limited to the sk class) and several spells do not function as their description lists them, and lastly broken spells that do not function at all.</P> <P>But ya get a free 10% run speed horse.... eh eh</P> <P> </P>

[far]

<BR> <DIV><double post noob here></DIV><p>Message Edited by farbe on <span class=date_text>06-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

[Ceruline]

<DIV>Very useful post, Farbe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've only hit 26 with Pondscum, my Froglok SK, but I'm already seeing issues with managing multiple mob aggro.  Thus far I've only rarely lost aggro to a single target when I was MT, but using my AE taunt and AE attacks as often as possible I'll still frequently lose the mobs that I'm not directly on, usually to the healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When tanking multiple mobs, what are our best options for building aggro, aside from our one group taunt?</DIV>

[YummiOger]

<P>Aggro Control goes to Zerkers at this point in time definately. The Difference beween Zerks and SKs is they are athe point at which Aggro Abilities are switched to DPS abilitys. Zerks being 60% Agrro/40% DPS, and SKs being 60% DPS/ 40% Aggro..</P> <P>As to how to hold group aggro while Lving (something i stoped a good while ago, so maby diff).. make SURE u have Adept3 AE tuant. i dare say that would be the first Adept 3 i would get. Ward urself on Incoming, it builds aggro on u before u get to group --> fire AE tuant --> Buffs hold AE Aggro decently, so cast ur offensive buff. .. With no mezzer in group, do AE spells alot, taht helps too..  BUT now ur at 20% power 8/ .. [Removed for Content]! ...</P> <P>Yummy Izbad</P> <P>faydark</P>

[Diern]

<P>One thing some of you are forgetting is our "Middle" class tank status. we will have average DPS, we will also have average tanking ability.</P> <P>We are looking to be one of the least desireable classes to recruit for raids and grouping. The powergaming mentality of most people is a huge problem. You need a tank and there are 20 guardians around who you going too choose? You need DPS and there are 10 warlocks/ 6 scouts / 3 bruisers who are you going to choose?</P> <P>Not the completely mediocre Shadowknight thats for sure.</P> <P>Dont get me started about our Utility, what we have currently is nothing you couldnt get another class to get thats better.</P> <P>Yes, I know now im starting to sound like a broken record. I really hope this isnt the case but this is SONY balancing we are talking about.</P>

[Oneira]

<span><blockquote><hr>Diernes wrote:<p>One thing some of you are forgetting is our "Middle" class tank status. we will have average DPS, we will also have average tanking ability.</p> <p>We are looking to be one of the least desireable classes to recruit for raids and grouping. The powergaming mentality of most people is a huge problem. You need a tank and there are 20 guardians around who you going too choose? You need DPS and there are 10 warlocks/ 6 scouts / 3 bruisers who are you going to choose?</p> <p>Not the completely mediocre Shadowknight thats for sure.</p> <p>Dont get me started about our Utility, what we have currently is nothing you couldnt get another class to get thats better.</p> <p>Yes, I know now im starting to sound like a broken record. I really hope this isnt the case but this is SONY balancing we are talking about.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Thanks for the replies all.  I have already started to work up my Crusader to SK and am not regretting it.  Yes, it's obvious that my Guardian is a better tank, but then I didn't expect an SK to be equal to a Guardian.  I just expected an SK to do a respectful job, and to offer something a little different than the normal meat shield. First off was the coolness factor.  I mean we are cool, right?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Second, in response to the poster.  Yes I know the problem.  It's funny because when the usual "Group looking for healer and tank" message comes up, I usually send a tell to the effect of, "Who do you consider a tank?"  Leave the powergamers to themselves and let them have their fun. I think the one thing SONY can do in the rebalancing that would help us a lot is to make the lifetap spells a bit more effective.  That would at least make us the relative equal of Paladins when it comes to a group--rather than a little extra healing, we give the party a little extra healing plus some damage to the mob. One thing I have noticed is that grouping an SK with a warlock works out VERY well.  Lowering the poison and disease mitigation that we both do generates a lot more damage. . . as long as the warlock is sensible enough to hold off on the big nukes until i've built up enough aggro.</span><div></div>

[Leatherface77]

<DIV> <P>One thing some of you are forgetting is our "Middle" class tank status. we will have average DPS, we will also have average tanking ability.</P> <P> </P> <P> I could be wrong but what I was to understand from moorgards post was that we would be better dps then pallys or guards. </P></DIV>

[Oneira]

<span><blockquote><hr>Leatherface77 wrote:<div> <p>One thing some of you are forgetting is our "Middle" class tank status. we will have average DPS, we will also have average tanking ability.</p> <p> I could be wrong but what I was to understand from moorgards post was that we would be better dps then pallys or guards. </p></div><hr></blockquote>Yes.  SKs will be more "offensively" oriented whereas Pals and Guards will be more "defensively" oriented.  That should translate into more offensive debuffs and more damage on our part I assume.</span><div></div>

[Exmortis_MT]

<DIV>I parsed My raid group last night.  we were killen a rather easy drayek, so its a fair representation of how an Sk matches up to a brigand.  Now one note, brigand was MA, so he had slight advantage, I had to locate and get close to a mob after he choose it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I ended the fight with 98.0 DPS as recorded by CSM.  I used a imbued ebon greatsword.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brigand ended with 108.3 DPS as recorded by CSM.  He used two imbued ebon slashers of some type.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we had a 47 illusionist for haste, which works big time in my favor with the slower weapon, 2 handers gain so much more from haste.  we both have FBSS and the Haste ring from the acient watcher of commonlands.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I manually ended CSM, which has the net effect of dropping us a wee bit, as i have to type "/csm end" after mob dies, but its a multi encounter fight, I dont have it set up to record in database mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He was not happy with this result hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Leatherface77]

Yeah too bad things wont stay that way:smileyvery-happy:.  Who knows what this revamp is going to do to the whole fighter archtype. Im sure that we will still be close to the top dps among fighter classes tho.

[yzyh]

<P>IF you do compare SK to the other 3bets tank class in game. Yeah SK need some love.</P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin are pretty balanced. Not the best tanks. but their ability to heal effiently their groupmate make them really usefull ing roup. They can really help the priest of your group.</P> <P>Guardian are the heaviest tank and their DPS is the lowest of all if I am right. So they are ok.</P> <P>But zerker are hard as SK with higher DPS and way betther aggro ability (due to their AoE DPS mostly)</P> <P>If SK would be betther soloer we could say that are balanced but ATM. I wouldn't say that SK are betther then Zerker for soloing and the reverse is also true.</P> <P>But this game is runned by SoE and SK are far to be gimped. I have hope into SoE. It is not Blizzard that run this game.</P> <P>Myself I like my SK bcuz I like his role play and he is not gimped. Maybe SOE made Zerker so good bcuz they were so useless in EQ1. Berseker of EQ1 is probably the gimpest class of all game.</P>