What if...

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>What if I were to say really positive things about Shadowknights.  Will my post be rated at least a four star?  I post exactly what I mean and feel.  I want to say really nice things about SKs on the board but I dont have anything.  SKs are not good tanks I have a hard time in aggroing one monster.   Sometimes I would be fighting it then it will turn and start attacking the healer or a dp in the group.  Sometimes I fight to get it back and never gain it back.   Even harder time keeping at least three mobs on me while everyone else fights.  All my spells are adapt one, tho I would get masters spells but they are rare and expensive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How is everyone else doing with their SK?  Is anyone else having trouble keeping aggro as me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im sure I will get another one star because Im still frusrated over my class.</DIV>

[sdwil]

Maybe it's just me but I really don't have much problem holding aggro if I'm actually trying to. The only time I seem to have problems is when my brother who plays a Lvl 50 Assassin goes nuts with all his high powered abilities within a short span (At which point I just wait for him to die then I seem to get Aggro back just fine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now on the downside if you do lose aggro it's a pain to get it back and will burn through what ever power I have left in a hurry.. Taediar Lvl 46 SK <div></div>

[Kulleras_Ogre]

<DIV>While I wouldn't mind having a little more "oomph" in the aggro creation area I have to say that most of the time I can maintain aggro pretty well. Sure on drawn out fights a rogue type or zerker will pull aggro off of me but that's an issue of aggro management. It's the entire groups job to keep aggro on the tank, not just yours. If people don't space out their skills through out the fight or blow through their power bar in 5 seconds yes, you are going to lose aggro every time. It's a matter of everyone learning to play with everyone else's strengths and weaknesses.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kulleras_Ogre on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[Braell]

<P>Myself i save stars for insightfull posts, though i've seen others star people for small comments, it's all good.</P> <P>I dont bother with one stars as it's just a waste of my time, you dont need a star system to spot poor arguments and dumb comments.</P> <P> </P> <P>Braellar</P>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<DIV>Why do you care how many stars you get?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't even look at the stars myself.</DIV>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<DIV>Oh, and I have no trouble with aggro control.  The only time I lose it is when I've gotten complacent and sleepy late at night and I forget to get an AoE or debuff off.  But it's never a terrible problem, I can usually regain it with a little bit of effort.</DIV>

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>I always lose aggro, Even when I keep on clicking on the taunt icon.  Before the taunt recycles the aggro is lost.  Generally I always lose aggro when their is a mystic in the group,  They all head right for the mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what are you doing differently so  you are keeping aggro?  How do you keep aggro with monster groups size of three or more?</DIV>

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>Not that I care with how many stars I get.  Its that anytime when someone disagrees with my post it must be a one star.</DIV>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<DIV>Clicking taunt is not going to garuntee you aggro.  Here's a few tips:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warding yourself or the main tank increases hate on all mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Buffing your party increases hate on all mobs.</DIV> <DIV>AoE attacks increase hate on all mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Debuffing a mob increases hate.</DIV> <DIV>Damaging a mob increases hate (damage over time = damage = hate)</DIV> <DIV>Stunning a mob increases hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have three taunts I use all the time.  My one mob taunt, my sheild bash taunt and my full group taunt.  If I'm holding aggro well, I'll keep the full group in reserve in case we get adds.  I always debuff my main target with cursed caress.  If my buffs run out, I cast them during battle.  If I'm fighting groups, I start with a debuff on my main target, then AoE taunt, and a few AoE attacks for good measure then start single target taunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am level 44 and I always tank for people higher level than me (46-50.)  I rarely lose aggro, even to rangers/assassins, but if I do, I can get it back easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[wigglywhitewo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV>Clicking taunt is not going to garuntee you aggro.  Here's a few tips... etc etc.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Very helpful. Thank you for the tips.</DIV>

[sdwil]

I found that in multiple mob encounters I like to pull with Baleful Smite to hit all the targets then while they are incoming I'll follow it up with Insatiable Hunger, and finally when they are close enough I hit my group taunt (Shriek of Terror for another few levels). That seems to get me a good start for hold the aggro.. Tae.. <div></div>

[far]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh, and I have no trouble with aggro control.  The only time I lose it is when I've gotten complacent and sleepy late at night and I forget to get an AoE or debuff off.  But it's never a terrible problem, I can usually regain it with a little bit of effort.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Debuff? We get debuffs?</P> <P>Siphon/draw Str hardly counts as a debuff let alone do jack for aggro generation sadly i can count the number of times ive cast this spell on 1 hand</P> <P>Same came be said tainted/cursed caress the debuff portion is weak (- slashing crushing piercing) and the amount of aggro generation is limp</P> <P>Decree of Decay/forget upgrade :: Is more an AE taunt MORE then it is a debuff in my book (admittedly it improves some other skills dps but first and foremost a taunt, any other benefits from it are inconsequential)</P> <P>Despoiling Mist ok thats a debuff but with a 30 second recast time a 72 sec duration with the 200 + power cost its not going in my list of aggro management spells.</P> <P>Or do any of thsese spells give mad aggro maybe i dunno its been a very long time since i did the entire xp thing</P> <DIV>I get by on buffs AEs and taunts to manage aggro.</DIV>

[Pero Salm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milaga wrote:<BR> <DIV>Clicking taunt is not going to garuntee you aggro.  Here's a few tips:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warding yourself or the main tank increases hate on all mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Buffing your party increases hate on all mobs.</DIV> <DIV>AoE attacks increase hate on all mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Debuffing a mob increases hate.</DIV> <DIV>Damaging a mob increases hate (damage over time = damage = hate)</DIV> <DIV>Stunning a mob increases hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have three taunts I use all the time.  My one mob taunt, my sheild bash taunt and my full group taunt.  If I'm holding aggro well, I'll keep the full group in reserve in case we get adds.  I always debuff my main target with cursed caress.  If my buffs run out, I cast them during battle.  If I'm fighting groups, I start with a debuff on my main target, then AoE taunt, and a few AoE attacks for good measure then start single target taunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am level 44 and I always tank for people higher level than me (46-50.)  I rarely lose aggro, even to rangers/assassins, but if I do, I can get it back easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Can you use these in order or can it be completely random during a fight?  So have you ever lost aggro when fighting groups mobs numbering at 3 or 4?  Will all theses mobs in the encounter will all be hated towards you on using AoE, debuff, buffing yourself, etc?  Also do you ever conserve power will you are in battle or you just use it up?

[Sha]

<P>Its a sad, sad day, when even WE SKs dont think SKs is worth it as a tank.</P> <P>Im level 48 myself, and I cant think of more than a handfull of times that I lost aggro because I screwed up myself. A triggerhappy Wiz, or a showoff scout, sure.. Bugged mobs that turns on someone else, the moment another in the encounter dies, sure.. Loosing aggro, because my taunts isnt strong enough, or because I have to click more skills than I have to keep it up, hardly ever..</P> <P> </P> <P>I know other classes dont trust us that much, but I thought that atleast we, as SKs, knew the potential we have.</P>

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>Two things need to be done for SKs.  One give us better taunts and spells to keep aggro.  Two give us higher damage.  Make us do almost three quarters the damage of a monk or bruiser.  Make us worth something to someone instead of being a waste of space.</DIV>

[Pero Salm]

Ok I have tried AoE spells, damage, buffs, debuffs, and others to try to keep aggro.  It actually works ok but not enough.  I still loss aggro even when I constantly click on the spells to keep aggro,  When I lose aggro I have a hard time getting it back.

[far]

<DIV>Id like to point out (again) that on single mob encounters Aggro management is cake, always has been always will be, the only reason to lose aggro on these is someone else doing something stupid (buffing while pulling for example) or some bug that tends to make a monk/zerker class just grab aggro for no reason (although no reason turns out they were buffing the group [Removed for Content] haste or self buffing or some such silly thing they will never admit too).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zarns or Whisper is 700ish taunt + 150-200 damage every 6 or 8 seconds, when combined with dreadful wrath it tends to be more then enough to keep a single mob situated, with minimal finger spamming. (destructive slam doesnt hit epics and is on a 30 second reuse timer hence not reliable but ill be damned if i dont use it every time its up)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem for me (and a few others) is that on a mob pull that has more then one we simply dont have enough spells that generate hate for all mobs in an encounter (doom judgement is too long recast but i burn it every time it comes up definately worth the opal to adept 3, swarming spirits/death cloud is long cast and low damage, cruel intent low damage, baleful smite low damage, shriek/blasphemy 30 second recast. hunger is reliable as is toughness sadly (including a tier 1 spell at 50 is like using disease cloud at 65 in eq1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Im not including 2 handed weapon stuff because if you can kill em in group with a two hander you arent killing tough enough mobs ;P i keeeeeed keeeeed. (I know there are alot of theorists out there who support 2 hander only combat tanking or no for ripposte/higher dps = more aggro for knight and a dead mob faster and dont want to degenerate to that arguement here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly when a mob has lets say for example 10k hps doing 100 damage to every mob in group isnt exactly going to keep them angry at you when that heal spell lands for 800 angering every mob in the group at whatever the heal multiplier is. What I would like to see is more group buffs i can fall back on (a small group ward of say 100 or so that gives everyone in group 5% haste or increase in dps while ward is on and a lifetap duration 45 secs but refreshes every tick giving aggro each tick) a group unholy str etc, a simple group disease or poison resist buff etc.</DIV>

[Rathumgo]

In response to Pero's last comment....seriously buddy, maybe its time to re-roll. If YOU think you're not worth anything then there's no point carrying on. It seems you're resigned to losing aggro before the fight has started. <div></div>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<DIV>Shate is exactly right.  The Shadowknight class may be more challenging to play well, but it certainly is not weaker.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuffs?  Cursed Caress is the most powerful debuff we have!  7 points in slashing/crushing/peircing is a level and a half.  If I can keep a green named mob debuffed, I can solo it.  If I don't use it at all, I get spanked.  I use this skill to pull solo mobs all the time.  Baleful smite if it's a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Mr. Salmon, it will just take practice to get the rythm right.  The most important think you can do is to get on all the mobs in the encounter's hate list right away.  An AoE attack (like baleful smite or sorrow) is the best way to do it.  Then AoE taunt.  Then start on the mob that everyone's focusing on.  Taunt, sheild bash ... at this point you might want to consider other ways to get group hate if you have a problem.  In most groups I'm in, these four are enough to get a solid hold on hate that just needs an occaisional taunt to keep up.  If you really have problems, start with the wards and group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are losing power too quickly by taunting, then don't use power to do damage.  Let the rest of the group (DPS) pick up the power slack by having them use their skills and spells.  Your primary responsibility is to keep the mobs off everyone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I smirk to myself whenever people exclaim that the SK needs more love from the devs, because I know it's just not true.  The reason why the SK hasn't received much attention from the devs is that its really doing fine.  If you want something easy to play, go play a guardian.  If you want a complex and challenging character, then the SK is what you need.</DIV>

[Pheeb]

If we would never loose aggro it would NOT be fun... Am 45 lvl - happens to me once in a while - nuker going trigger happy, etc - I then try my best to regain it - I will eventually, not right away - worth case I will evac or graven embrace (rarely), or deadly touch, etc if things to out of control... I'm just upgrading all my taunts to a minimum of Adept 3 - wards and taunts are key IMHO I like being an SK and I sure would not roll any other class... Am even keeping my unholy pony <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Loathi]

<DIV>Another thing that I haven't seen people mention is solo-HOs. Here's how I pull at 45:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>single mob: Vile Coil to aggro, HO starter, Sickening Anger (or any long range sword thing), Insidious Whisper (taunt). After that, I just  use stuff as I have power, and almost never have trouble even grouped with a wizard who has all his nukes at adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>multiple mobs: Vile Coil to aggro, HO starter, Baleful Smite (long range aoe sword), Shriek (aoe taunt). After that, I use all my aoe damage attacks and by the time i finish with them, most of the group is dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo-HOs are also good for getting aggro back, if you have the time to do them -- if someone like a scout has aggro, taking the extra 3 seconds is worth it, since they will probably live and you get a lot of taunt out of the HO. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything else I change depending on the mobs/level of group/type of encounter/my power bar but I always pull the same way, and it works out fine. I've trained all the mages I group with to nuke/debuff on incoming, and the beauty of pulling this way is that if you do lose aggro it tends to be near the end of the fight, when the mob already used up all its specials on you, so other people don't take as much damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Loathing of Mistmoore</DIV>