my opinion on shadowknights

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>I do play a shadowknight.  I dont play an alt, never been interested in doing that, just sticking to one character.  If I were to go back and tell myself about being a shadowknight, I would honestly say not be one.  Rather be a guardian, monk, or bruiser.  For shadowknights be smack in the middle of a tank and a damage dealer, brings us a disadvantage.  We are a light tank and a light dp.  Guardian vs SK a guardian would definitely beat a SK.  SK vs monk, the monk would beat us for dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have honestly struggled to figure out the place for SKs in the whole game of EQ2.  Are we merely a secondary, take a place of a tank?  If a SK was in a group, you had one guardian two healers and one dp, and there is one spot for a SK, what makes that SK help that group?  Would that group really miss that SK if they just filled in that spot with another dp?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion on SKs is I think they just plain suck. not really a good tank and not really a good dp.  I should have been a guardian if i wanted to play a tank class.</DIV>

[vwlsskng]

<P>Try as they might to have avoided the whole hybrid issue, Shadowknights (and Paladins) are just that, being neither the best of one class nor the other, but something in the middle. It sounds to me as though your expectations were unrealistic.<BR><BR>If you were hybrid-minded when rolling your Shadowknight, as many former EQL Shadow Knights were, you may not feel the way you feel.</P>

[Rylight]

<P>I think this is a really bad time to complian about something like this considering we should be getting a major revamp with the next patch. I just hope that if the patch makes us tank better, it wont make us gimped spell wise. In EQ1 we could hit pretty hard but our spells were not that powerful.now dont get me wrong, i didnt say they were not useful, just not that powerful. for instance our desiease cloud only hit for like 11pts of damage every time it landed?? didnt hurt that much at all, and this was like in the lvl 40's, but it slowed down our opponent tredmendously, making it possible to kite when combined with fear.</P> <P>This is a whole new game though, we are in the forefront of battle most of the time, and can no longer play evasive yet deadly. I just hope after this patch we will be defined as dps tanks, or defense tanks or something!! (probably dps tanks cause our counter parts the pallys are clearly defensive) kinda like a zerker.</P> <P>Im not going to coment anymore till the next patch is realesed, we will see then</P>

[megatra]

<P>My opinion is: I think your opinion sucks.</P>

[Braell]

<DIV>I can see where you are comeing from - though i wouldnt say they suck, just they are not as balanced as they should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I wouldnt really call shadowknights/paladins hybrids anymore than say Guardians or Monks are - we upgrade exactly the same way, some spells/combat arts may be more powerfull at certain lvs when compared class to class, thats why the combat changes are going through, but at the moment all the fighters upgrade the same. (to call one a hybrid you would be calling them all hybrids.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example - taunt is a skill we get as a fighter, then an upgrade as a crusader and then another as a shadowknight - each fighter recieves their own flavour of the spell at the same levels, Our encounter taunt adds a lifetap proc, Beserkers gives them a chance to enrage, Bruisers has a chance to fear some of the creatures in the encounter, we get the same taunt just with a bit more diversity and flavour added to our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#009900>Fighter</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#3399ff>Priest</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#cc0000>Mage</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#ff00ff>Scout</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#009900>(Crusader Vs Warrior Vs Brawler)</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#3399ff>(Shaman Vs Cleric Vs Druid)</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#cc0000>(Summoner Vs Enchanter Vs Sorcerer)</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#ff00ff>(Bard Vs Rogue Vs Predator)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#009900>((Paladins Vs Shadowknight) Vs (Guardian Vs Berserker) Vs (Bruiser Vs Monk))</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#0099ff>((Mystic Vs Defiler) Vs (Templar Vs Inquisitor) Vs (Warden Vs Fury))</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#cc0000>((Conjurer Vs Necromancer) Vs (Illusionist Vs Coercer) Vs (Wizard Vs Warlock))</FONT> Vs <FONT color=#ff00ff>((Troubadour Vs Dirge) Vs (swashbuckler Vs Brigand) Vs (Assasin Vs Ranger))</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>The problem at the moment (pretty much like you stated) is that Paladins and Shadowknights sit in the middle, which basically equals to "comes last in everything" - Because Berserkers and Guardians are balanced from the warrior class, they tank better than the Crusaders, then Berserkers are the damage side of the coin for warriors and outdamage the crusaders - effectivly class balance is broken right there because of conflicting idea/flavours.</DIV> <DIV>Throw in Brawlers who have high damage attacks and tank via avoidance - combined avoidance and mitigation allows them to tank better than the Crusaders and do more damage - These are the problems currently and exactly why the comnat changes are on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imho the current setup lies not to far from this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Mitigation: Guardian, Berserker, Paladin, Shadowknight, Monk, Bruiser.</DIV> <DIV>Damage: Bruiser, Monk, Berserker, Guardian, Shadowknight, Paladin</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The quotes suggest something more like this is in the Combat testing:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Mitigation: Guardian, Paladin, Berserker, Shadowknight, Monk, Bruiser.</DIV> <DIV>Damage: Bruiser, Monk, Shadowknight, Berserker, Paladin, Guardian</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even takeing a look at some of the offical responces, shows that they are working on the system to make it more enjoyable for all - which sounds promising if not convincing at first, but just trawl though a lot of the more resent posts made by MG and it does show light at the end of the tunnel, Very soon you may find your shadowknight puts down childish things and no longer is refered to as the diet-coak of evil.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Moorgard</STRONG></FONT> Wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle....</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Moorgard</STRONG></FONT> Wrote: <P></P> <P>In the current game, fighters do high DPS and tank extremely well. This isn't confined to one or two subclasses, but rather encompasses all of them. This statement will no doubt spark the "No way, my subclass is way broken compared to that other fighter subclass!" but regardless of that, my basic statement is correct.</P> <P>As I said in my post last night, one goal with the changes is to reinforce archetype roles. In the balance between fighters and scouts, this means that fighters will be able to tank better than scouts, and scouts will be able to do more damage than fighters. Again, that's painting this issue with the broadest possible strokes; obviously there is a lot of variance that will happen based on subclass.</P> <P>Keep in mind that we are adjusting the game as a whole during this process, not just the damage output of certain classes. It won't just be fighters that do less damage, but likely everyone in the game: players and NPCs alike. This will have the net effect of making fights last a bit longer, which is a good thing for those classes like enchanters and bards that excel in things like crowd control, group enhancements, etc.</P> <P>As you can see, none of these factors exist in a vacuum, which is what makes all this such an involved process. But yes, when all is said and done, scouts will end up doing more damage than fighters.</P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This to me sounds good, though i think some people just dont have the reading comprehension to understand the statement, or understand how it fits together - that is always a problem, fighting people who listen to the loudest voice and take it as authority and skipping the part that involved thinking.<BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Moorgard</FONT></STRONG> Wrote: <P></P> <P>This is already in progress as part of the upcoming balance changes. Every spell is getting looked at.</P> <DIV>The reason our current system has some of these problems is that our spells grow two ways: by level and by quality. Your App3 at level X is not the same as your App3 at level Y, and because of that there can often be crossover points where one spell of a given quality is the same as a higher quality--or potentially less desireable in some way. We simply don't have enough headroom without making spells that do crazy damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why we're doing away with the concept of spells growing by level. This will allow us to make sure spells and arts have clearer benefits as you increase their quality tier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're also going to be organizing the knowledge book into spell lines so that upgrade paths are a lot easier to understand. There will likely be new spells added to flesh out some of the lines a bit more, so current spells that grow infinitely will likely be replaced by spell lines that accomplish much the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not all the spell changes we're making are about balance. Another good reason for them is to make our spell system more consistent and easier for players to understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the next phase of the changes that will be showing up on Test server soon: Intelligence will provide a much more noticeable bonus to spell damage, and Wisdom will be important for mitigating the damage bonus of your opponent. So yes, you will have a good reason to buff your INT and WIS, just like many of you have been asking for. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well this sounds good and bad, in EQ an common problem was a few levels before your spells got upgraded -they effectively were lamer than a one legged donkey, how do you fix that? allow skills to scale - high level spells/combat arts for a lower tier work out better than the begining of a new tier.. then whats the point of useing the new spell? thats one thing i "did" enjoy about EQ, when you got new spells they were better.</DIV> <DIV>It sounds like they are tweaking some of the scaleing, possibly causeing a tiny gap between upgrades, or makeing upgrades feel better - either way, if they accomplish something that makes spells "feel" like an upgrade, then i am all for it.</DIV> <DIV><BR>And well, i added the last one i just added because i thought it was amusing, if only because Lacelot was the prissy paladin in shinny armour and Galahad was the wanabe shadowknight!<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Moorgard</FONT></STRONG> Wrote: <P></P> <P>Imagine what the Knights of the Round Table would have been like if Galahad had quit because Lancelot did more damage with a sword than he did.</P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>So things might not be working now - but it's not the end of the world, class's are not broke just not as well balanced as they should be, and you can still have a lot of fun as a shadowknight and paladin, i have a Shadowknight, Berserker and Bruiser - and if i had more char slots i would love to try a Guardian and Paladin to, i find fighters all really fun and fit my playstyle nicely, i still think the EQL Shadowknight was just awsome and the most fun class i ever played and each expansion brought new challenges and headaches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe one day we will feel like shadowknights of old - but not today.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braellar</DIV>

[Margen]

<P>In my personnel opinon we would become alot better as tanks if they revamed our wimpy lifetaps (too little damage/heal and to much power).  Improved our wards, and I wouldn't mind seeing us have a bit better taunt.  I am kind of tired of having to burn large amounts of power to maintain aggro, while guardians/zerkers maintain it much more effeciantly.  Pallys have their heals to make up for less mitigation (some say they take too much power, haven't played one in eq2 so can't really comment).  Supposedly our lifetaps/wards are supposed to make the difference for us, right now they don't come close IMHO.  </P> <P> I wouldn't say we suck, class can be a lot of fun to play, and there is some nice points for us.  But in the realm of balance, I think we are kind of coming up the rear in the tanking community.  I keep hoping that Sony will address these issues, but still waiting.</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 32nd Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[Lofar]

<DIV>I really don't understand why so many people complain about shadowknights. I really haven't had any more trouble holding agro than any other tank I've seen. Granted I do burn a lot more power to do it than they do, but I still hold agro pretty well (until I run out of power). As for damage... the other day I had a warlock going crazy because I was constantly doing almost double the damage he was. Most likely it was because we were fighting large numbers of low con mobs and they were dying from my AOEs faster than he could get his spells off.:smileytongue: But even on higher con mobs, I'm generally right up there in damage. I quite often easily out damage bruisers and beserkers, and many scouts as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only problem is that I'm always out of power at the end of a fight. Everyone else in the group will be at like 75% power after a fight and I'm lucky if I have 10% left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Braell]

<DIV>Outdamaging certain other classs must be an thing that changes with level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play with a monk all the time - the last time i outdamaged her was when i had significantly better weapons and gear and a few levels higher fighting creatures that would be blue to me and orange to her, doesnt matter what configuration of tanking is, if do it or she does it - i just cannot outdamage her no way no how, maybe if i had adept 3 spells vs app I, but we are pretty much on full adept I and well, monks damage on a per skill basis is higher than ours per hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lot of people do not realise how good brawlers/monks can be - and well in a group monks/bruisers can pretty much lay hit after hit after hit, so should be burning down power at a nice rate, if they are really high on power in the group then i think you have somone whos not performing as many combat arts as they could per fight - for whatever reason good or bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braellar</DIV>

[Diern]

<P>Nice to see Sony has learned nothing about class balancing, even after years of EQL</P> <P>They said all fighting classes would be able to tank equally well, Utilising there individual skills.</P> <P>Now they have contridicted themselves by saying that a particular fighting class will tank in proportion to how much dps they inflict. yet Scouts will all outdamage us.</P> <P>Shadowknights will be relegated to the middle in tanking ability. We all know in reality this equals dead last. No one will want a Shadowknight in the group. They will take Guardians and Paladins maybe even  berzerkers for the tank role, and scouts / mages for the DPS role.</P> <P>We wont have a role at all, or at least not one that any other class cant perform equally well or better. This is EQL all over again, except all the cool abilitys shadowknights once got too compensate have been nerfed or removed completely.</P> <P>Dont see monks having it much better either.</P> <P>:robotmad: </P>

[far]

<P>As a 50 sk I would like to point out any kind of comments about lifetaps (despite if you think they tap too little or not enough) is the astounding rate at which they are resisted. This means in SEVERAL encounters you are totally dependant on other classes to heal you (on that errant barrage, or some AE etc), perhaps if we had some unresistable stackable short recast spell (seeing as i have never heard of a pallie say their heals were resisted) we would be of greater value, it doesnt even have to be a lifetap.</P> <P> </P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lofar wrote:<BR> <DIV>I really don't understand why so many people complain about shadowknights. I really haven't had any more trouble holding agro than any other tank I've seen. Granted I do burn a lot more power to do it than they do, but I still hold agro pretty well (until I run out of power). As for damage... the other day I had a warlock going crazy because I was constantly doing almost double the damage he was. Most likely it was because we were fighting large numbers of low con mobs and they were dying from my AOEs faster than he could get his spells off.:smileytongue: But even on higher con mobs, I'm generally right up there in damage. I quite often easily out damage bruisers and beserkers, and many scouts as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only problem is that I'm always out of power at the end of a fight. Everyone else in the group will be at like 75% power after a fight and I'm lucky if I have 10% left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would say the warlock was either a: not using his spells correctly, B:  Wasn't a good player or C: Hasn't upgraded spells.  Granted I am only 32 but the warlocks I play with own me on DPS ... As they should.  All my spells are either appiv, adept 1 or adept 3 and I don't even come anywhere close to my friendly warlocks LOL.</P> <P>Blackoath 32nd Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Where did you get those DPS numbers from? Kruel, a lvl 50 SK in my guild and I consistently outdamage our lvl 50 bers. I clocked in at 209 and he clocked in at 206 during the Tremblar raid. Single MOB targets, the bers had us by very little, but in multiple mobs it wasnt even funny. </P> <P>There is a misconception that Bers have great DPS over other plate tanks. Its not true, Crusaders, both Sk and Paly, can outdamage bers if they try, it will be close, but it can be done. Upgrade your AE and you'll see. Palys have 4 AE on diff timers, so I think you guys get the same thing.</P> <P>Crusaders should stick together. Dont let all this hype about Bers being DPS take root. They're not that great of DPS anymore, only better over if your a crusader with app 4 whos not trying. </P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P> <P>*and its a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] shame that your life taps arent fixed yet =(</P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[Braell]

<P>I dont see the dps figures posted anywhere - bum heh i was interested in em.</P> <P>Granted i am not high enough to really comment on raiding or dps at high levels - but from playing a few fighters classes specially my main two, my Berserker outdps's my Shadowknight constantly - might consider useing all my resources to make the shadowknights spells significantly higher and re-run some parses again.</P> <P>But a thing i noticed a lot as my Berserker (mainly because i see more berserkers in game or group with more than say shadowknights) Is that a lot of spells for all classes do not stack, and that was a right pain in the backside - as a huge portion of his early 20 skills had debuff components added in, things like Wound/Strongbears, Maul - being the main two, and with another their none of them would stack meaning i had to wait for one to wear out.. and one thing i also noticed was the berserker to first get wound/strongbears off was usually the one who kept or pulled agro - that skill starts adding good dps very fast and parses where i could not land one on the mob really altered the end result by a lot.</P> <P>I dont know if you had more than one Berserker on the raid - but things like that do happen with stacking.</P> <P>On the other hand - we could just end up pretty good at dps high end, two handed weapons with large delays and procs seem to work wonders to, but with parses you can filter out said weapon procs to see the difference.</P> <P>That was one thing i loved about EQL though - i felt like i could go nuts and flip out and go full burst with the spears, lifetaps, harmtouch etc - burn that mana bar down and get pretty nice dps, reminds me of a time me and another SK were in Kael drakkel just after the raid feature had become available due to expansion, neither of us had it so we had to have the gheto two shadowknight group outside of raid, and ended KSing a lot of the giants due to spears being so fast combined our group done more damage than others - all the casters, priests fireing off nukes like a fireing squad tend to kill things fast and doesnt leave much time to get melee damage done.</P> <P>So i would be chuffed to find out we could burn our power to achieve a noticeable result.</P> <P> </P> <P>Braellar</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

Ill try to post a parse of Kruel and I against the Bers. Coincidentally a Paly/ Sk duo works really well. Great combo of heals and DPS..... and theres nothing I love more than watching him use his spell to make people fake death. Dunno what the spell is called, but when we're waiting for raids to start he starts popping people with it, and I'm rolling on the floor laughing.

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>Does anyone else here have trouble keeping aggro to three of more mobs at the same time?  I do I might keep aggro to them for maybe 30 seconds if im lucky.  Sometimes I have trouble with one even when I click on the seven second taunt continously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How exactly will the patch help our class?  Will it help us keep aggro better with multiple mobs?  Will the taunts be better?</DIV>

[Bron]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Where did you get those DPS numbers from? Kruel, a lvl 50 SK in my guild and I consistently outdamage our lvl 50 bers. I clocked in at 209 and he clocked in at 206 during the Tremblar raid. Single MOB targets, the bers had us by very little, but in multiple mobs it wasnt even funny. </p> <p>There is a misconception that Bers have great DPS over other plate tanks. Its not true, Crusaders, both Sk and Paly, can outdamage bers if they try, it will be close, but it can be done. Upgrade your AE and you'll see. Palys have 4 AE on diff timers, so I think you guys get the same thing.</p> <p>Crusaders should stick together. Dont let all this hype about Bers being DPS take root. They're not that great of DPS anymore, only better over if your a crusader with app 4 whos not trying. </p> <p>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</p> <p>*and its a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] shame that your life taps arent fixed yet =(</p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">05-11-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:10 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Keep in mind, part of a berserker's current DPS is what they add to the DPS of other's in the group.  Not only would they be adding haste to a grouped SK, but some procs as well (anarchic swing) and parser's will automatically count this towards the SK's DPS.  If you're looking at straight up personal DPS, I think a smart SK has a chance at beating a berserker by using their pet and their skills, but I think in most situations, a zerker will add more DPS to their group than a similarly equipped SK.</span><div></div>

[Pero Salm]

My opinion on SKs still stand.  Keeping aggro for me is terrible.  I will lose aggro to mobs when a mystic buffs, and they have to buff its part of their class.  If aggro is not improved our class is pretty useless.

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

A mystic who buffs during battle deserves to get laid sideways to the sand.  Sheesh.  Buffing is a great aggro generator, I use it all the time.

[pyroglyph]

<P>Agree ^^ </P> <P>Any healer casting buffs during the fight is a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P>Have your team wait a few seconds to dig in on the mobs when you pull. This should allow you to get off your AoE taunt, as well as another AoE and/or an HO. When they see the HO complete, they can attack.</P> <P>I usually start like this: pull with an aggro spell, and while running back to team, cast ward or Insatiable Hunger. Then start an HO, follow with Sorrow and end with Shriek of Terror. This takes...3 seconds?</P> <P>The mobs are mine.</P>

[far]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pyroglyphix wrote:<BR> <P>Agree ^^ </P> <P> </P> <P>I usually start like this: pull with an aggro spell, and while running back to team, cast ward or Insatiable Hunger. Then start an HO, follow with Sorrow and end with Shriek of Terror. This takes...3 seconds?</P> <P>The mobs are mine.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Umm more like 15 to 20 seconds and good luck getting everyone else to sit still while you build aggro</DIV>

[jm212]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> farbe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pyroglyphix wrote:<BR> <P>Agree ^^ </P> <P> </P> <P>I usually start like this: pull with an aggro spell, and while running back to team, cast ward or Insatiable Hunger. Then start an HO, follow with Sorrow and end with Shriek of Terror. This takes...3 seconds?</P> <P>The mobs are mine.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Umm more like 15 to 20 seconds and good luck getting everyone else to sit still while you build aggro</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do tell me how you get 15 to 20 seconds out of that. Three seconds may be optimistic, but I doubt it would be more than 6 or maybe even 7 seconds.

[Pero Salm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pyroglyphix wrote:<BR> <P>Have your team wait a few seconds to dig in on the mobs when you pull. This should allow you to get off your AoE taunt, as well as another AoE and/or an HO. When they see the HO complete, they can attack.</P> <P>I usually start like this: pull with an aggro spell, and while running back to team, cast ward or Insatiable Hunger. Then start an HO, follow with Sorrow and end with Shriek of Terror. This takes...3 seconds?</P> <P>The mobs are mine.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its really impossible to wait three seconds.  Some mobs will kill you less then that.  The group have to attack right away or you be dead.<BR>

[Rathumgo]

I'm a 32 SK and group regularly with a wizard, coercer, assassin, troubador and inquisitor. I have no problems holding aggro, and very little difficulty in regaining it on the odd occassion I lose it (to the wiz getting trigger happy on his AE's). Far too many people believe the hype they read about "this class is better than that class". When you go into battle do you think "i'm gonna lose aggro on this mob" before its started? You're the one at the keyboard, you're the one who can say to your group "let me get my HO off", and guess what, you're the one that chose this class. To the guy who groups with the Mystic that buffs during battle.....I pity you. To the guy who fights mobs that can kill him in under 3 seconds if the rest of his group doesn't attack....fight something easier lol. Maybe these are just issues with the higher level SK's i dunno, but as i said before i'm doing just fine. <div></div>

[pyroglyph]

<P>I make sure that my teams understand from the get-go that I'm the tank, and what I say goes. If they don't listen, I'm sure as heck not going to burn my power down trying to save them. I may toss a feign at them now and then, and usually that gets my point across.</P> <P>Most people who team me regularly understand how I operate, and are thankful for it. I get regular comments in pickup teams like "Wow, you're an awesome tank - way better than the guardian we had earlier!" and so on and so forth. A tank must control the situation in order to control aggro, the game isn't very forgiving of lazy tanks. This isn't really a new concept, it's a basic fundamental of nearly any MMO like this.</P> <P>Managing your power pool is also very important, especially if you're losing aggro a lot. Spamming every attack on your hotbar isn't a very effective tactic for regaining aggro, and I see people do it all the time. It's worth letting the overnuking warlock or assassin get beat on for a few seconds while you wait for a taunt to pop...hopefully they will get the idea and it will make your life easier in the end. </P> <P>Learn to pace yourself, and examine your attacks to figure out which give you the most bang for your buck. Outside of taunts, buffs, and slams, most skills don't generate a very significant amount of aggro. By doing that, you also minimize your downtime between fights.</P>

[Krogoxx]

as a lvl 50 SK in a raiding guild i do not even bother to tank just dps,which at 190-210 i am told is fairly high. i can out dps most classes oon the raid. all depends on gear and buffs

[Morog]

<P>Pero, if you don't have a handle on what it takes to be a SK in this game why are you posting crap like this :</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=1&message.id=2022" target=_blank><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=1&message.id=2022</FONT></A></P> <P>How can you say that SKs are the worst class, suck etc. when you don't even know how to hold agro * ? How can you complain about our class when you are trying to use our fluff squire like a pet ** ?</P> <P>Honestly man ... at level 50? /boggle</P> <P> </P> <P>Morogon</P> <P>48 Sk , Steamfont</P> <P>Edit: *  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=10049" target=_blank><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=10049</FONT></A></P> <DIV>        **  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=10140" target=_blank><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=10140</FONT></A></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Morogon on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 AM</span>

[far]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jm21221 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do tell me how you get 15 to 20 seconds out of that. Three seconds may be optimistic, but I doubt it would be more than 6 or maybe even 7 seconds. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Initial spell baleful smite for example (personally i use dreadful wrath so at least one isnt beating me in the back on the way in) has a casting time of 1.0 Seconds.. ok fine we can ignore this one because combat hasnt started</P> <P>Unholy Blessing : Cast time 1.0 seconds</P> <P>Insatiable Hunger: Cast time 2.0 Seconds</P> <P>HO : however long it takes to click the button</P> <P>Sorrow: Cast Time 1.0 seconds  </P> <P>Shriek of Terror 1.0 seconds</P> <P>So you are talking about 5 seconds of casting time, not accounting for movement and positioning mob time, interrupts, the time to actually press the buttons, if you shriek and sorrow without waiting for the mobs to show up it doesnt help much.</P> <P>With a required casting time of 5 seconds you arent getting this done in 6 or 7 seconds EVER.</P> <P>My assumption is about .5 seconds inbetween each spell (even if stacking)  adding another 2-4 seconds, another two seconds to position mobs so they arent barrageing the hades out of your casters and make sure they get in range for your AEs</P> <P>so that brings my calculated total to 9-11 seconds assuming no interupts or stuns or the mobs not stopping to nuke the [Removed for Content] out of you on your way in.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[pyroglyph]

<P>If you actually read what I said, I cast the buff or ward while running back to the team. The team can't start beating on the mobs until they get there, obviously. There's no way to estimate the time it takes to run back, it will be different for every encounter.</P> <P>It takes 3 seconds from the time the mobs arrive for me to cast HO, Sorrow, and Shriek. The ability to que attacks also ensures no gap between casts. You can also actually cast the HO and first attack nearly simultaneously.</P>

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

<DIV>I just have to step in to say that yes, a Paladin/Shadowknight duo is an incredibly effective duo.  I've duo'd many times with Paladins, within my guild and without.  If you do it right, you can keep neck in neck hate wise and bounce the aggro from one tank to the other.  All buffs and debuffs stack, and the combined heals and wards are enough to keep both tanks on their feet for their good DPS to do the mobs in.  </DIV>

[Margen]

<P>Well on the issue of aggro generation last night I grouped with a 35 Beserker, me being a 33 SK.  Well I was willing to let him have tanking duties, but he said for me to do it because he didn't really want to tank that night.  Ok fair enough, so I go and start pulling mobs and continously this guy would get aggro from me without taunting.  And he was waiting about 8 to 10 secs in the fight before doing bloodrage.  And before you ask all my taunts, aoe and buffs are adept 1, and I was recycling them as fast as I could.  Heck one time I even used rescue, mob still stuck on him like dirt on white teeshirt.  After an hour and half of this I just said go head and tank bud, I will dps.  Maybe I am being too sensitive about this but it is really messed up when another tank can steal aggro with out even trying and I am button mashing my butt off.  Ok rant of the day is done LOL</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 33rd Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[Pero Salm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morogon wrote:<BR> <P>Pero, if you don't have a handle on what it takes to be a SK in this game why are you posting crap like this :</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=1&message.id=2022" target=_blank><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=1&message.id=2022</FONT></A></P> <P>How can you say that SKs are the worst class, suck etc. when you don't even know how to hold agro * ? How can you complain about our class when you are trying to use our fluff squire like a pet ** ?</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SKs are the worst class and we do suck.   We cant hold aggro at all.  I have tried everything that would try to keep aggro mob encounters up to 3 mobs,  I easily lose aggro sometimes with in ten seconds, normally to damage dealer or a mystic giving out buffs.  When I get the encounter I would try everything to keep all the mobs on to me, this doesnt happen.  Once I lose aggro I could never get it back at all.  I would click my seven second taunt button, doesnt work I do it again.  Amazingly sometimes I do get it back but its not that great.</P> <P>This game doesnt need shadowknights.  Sorry but we arent really that good.  A guardian, two healers, and three damage dealers would make a nice group.  No shadowknights required.  If I knew how but SKs suck I would have become a guardian instead.</P> <P>For months I have asked what the real place for SKs in the game, a few people tell me that we are a secondary tanker, someone who could take a mob that breaks aggro to the guardian and he could aggro that from the healer or dp.  Still why do anyone need a SK, I rarely see a guardian loose aggro, if he did he have a better chance on getting it back.</P> <P>This class plain sucks.<BR></P>

[Ancatd]

<div></div>Pero wrote:A guardian, two healers, and three damage dealers would make a nice group.<hr>I play in this setting every night except replace the guardian with an SK. Two rangers, conjurer, mystic and inquisitor (levels 31-34)Average gear, mostly pristine feyiron, and spells App IV or Adept I.I can't speak beyond my level but at 33 I have had very little trouble maintaining aggro in yellow/orange con 3-5 MOB pull. Most problems are caused by one of the rangers not following assist discipline and attacking a different MOB in a group pull. And even then I usually maintain the aggro. Pull with a debuff on 1st target, HO-DD-Decree of Decay, Cruel Intent, another AoE (forget the name). Intersperse with taunts and AoE's as the fight progresses and I often end at 60-80% power left. Yes, getting aggro back sucks...but the idea is not to lose it in the first place. And if you do then the other group members need to learn not to button mash....a few dirt naps tends to straighten out the unwilling <span>:smileywink:</span>I can't address the raid level issues but at the single group level we ARE viable tanks.<div></div>

[Bron]

Pero, can I ask how well upgraded your spells/combat arts are?  After all the complaining I decided to click on your link and take a look, and your gear leaves alot to be desired for a level 50.  If your spells and arts are as poorly upgraded as your equipment, then it's not a surprise you're losing agro.  An adept1 taunt is going to seem alot less powerful if you're grouping with players that use adept3 or master splles. I know not everyone has the playtime or even the desire to get the "best" gear.  But if you're level 50 without a single piece of legendary armor you're not exactly living up to your character's full potential and thus not really qualified to say your class "sucks". <div></div>

[far]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bronto wrote:<BR> But if you're level 50 without a single piece of legendary armor you're not exactly living up to your character's full potential and thus not really qualified to say your class "sucks".<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well Im not sure if his profile has changed much but taking a quick look he doesnt look 'too bad'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for legendary Armor I see a few HQs (jboots, fishbone, fbss) a fabled neckpeice, a peice of black ebon which is almost equivalent to pristine ebon just cant get the proc which is kinda silly anyways. Looking at his kill to death ratio it is far better then mine, <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=216854207" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=216854207</A> , Not that gear makes or breaks a shadowknight, it is as mentioned the spells. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point Id like to make is despite how much you value his (or my) opinions, we have invested alot of time into the class, (admittedly any moran with free time can make a 50, this game has incrediably hideous hideous hand rails and seat belts) and have just as much right as any other 50 sk to voice our opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said if I wanted to play a dps in raid situations id make a rogue or a mage, not that sks dont generate enormous amounts of dps, and a good deal of single target aggro, the class feels and plays extremely unbalanced, and not as rounded as the other classes SEEM to be (this is from my perspective a level 50 sk) making us VERY one dimential. Can tank but not the best (in many peoples book the least versital of the plate tanks cant spot heal, cant mass aggro and clamp, cant super buff group, I dont think we are that bad but it a prevalent feeling on our server). Can DPS but not as high as monks rogues mages, only advantage is we have more hps to withstand AEs with (yes im not counting monks in that statement), cant rez, invis, act as a battery, cannot kite adds anymore,  can evac but only ever 30 minutes meaning that every other class with the spell is better at it. Outside of Doom Judgement our AEs are trivial and little more then a novel gimmick seeing as the majority lack any punch behind them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this mean we 'suck'. It really depends how you envisioned the sk class, if you saw yourself as an evil harbinger of hate and fear from  SK from eq1 you are extremely disappointed, if you saw yourself as a mighty tank on par with guardians or even paladins you again are disappointed, if you saw yourself as an offensive light armored non self healing/buffing dps machine you are wondering what all the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing is about. I like my class, more as a legacy of my eq1 character then what is currently available, I wish to see my class improved, to inspire a bit of awe from another class at what we are capable of, outside of dealing more dps then lazy rogues and mages.</DIV><p>Message Edited by farbe on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 PM</span>

[Krogoxx]

<P>hmm my guardian friend liked me in his group when we were exping to lvl  50 and he told me he has his group set up for splitpawn and he wanted me in it.today in epic CL instanced i got 238 dps and i still need haste bracer and GEBs so Sks that complain about our lack of dps are wrong.the only adept3 i have is for stat buffs and no masters. i think my str was 370 during that raid.it is true that i cannot tank as well as the guadians or the sole paladin in my guild but they cannot touch my dps but i bult my Sk with dps in mind.this up coming fighter does scare me a bit tho.</P> <P> </P>

[Bron]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>farbe wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Bronto wrote: But if you're level 50 without a single piece of legendary armor you're not exactly living up to your character's full potential and thus not really qualified to say your class "sucks".<hr></blockquote>Well Im not sure if his profile has changed much but taking a quick look he doesnt look 'too bad'</div><div> </div><div>As for legendary Armor I see a few HQs (jboots, fishbone, fbss) a fabled neckpeice, a peice of black ebon which is almost equivalent to pristine ebon just cant get the proc which is kinda silly anyways. Looking at his kill to death ratio it is far better then mine, <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=216854207">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=216854207</a> , Not that gear makes or breaks a shadowknight, it is as mentioned the spells.</div><div> </div><div>The point Id like to make is despite how much you value his (or my) opinions, we have invested alot of time into the class, (admittedly any moran with free time can make a 50, this game has incrediably hideous hideous hand rails and seat belts) and have just as much right as any other 50 sk to voice our opinion.</div><div> </div><div>That said if I wanted to play a dps in raid situations id make a rogue or a mage, not that sks dont generate enormous amounts of dps, and a good deal of single target aggro, the class feels and plays extremely unbalanced, and not as rounded as the other classes SEEM to be (this is from my perspective a level 50 sk) making us VERY one dimential. Can tank but not the best (in many peoples book the least versital of the plate tanks cant spot heal, cant mass aggro and clamp, cant super buff group, I dont think we are that bad but it a prevalent feeling on our server). Can DPS but not as high as monks rogues mages, only advantage is we have more hps to withstand AEs with (yes im not counting monks in that statement), cant rez, invis, act as a battery, cannot kite adds anymore,  can evac but only ever 30 minutes meaning that every other class with the spell is better at it. Outside of Doom Judgement our AEs are trivial and little more then a novel gimmick seeing as the majority lack any punch behind them.</div><div> </div><div>Does this mean we 'suck'. It really depends how you envisioned the sk class, if you saw yourself as an evil harbinger of hate and fear from  SK from eq1 you are extremely disappointed, if you saw yourself as a mighty tank on par with guardians or even paladins you again are disappointed, if you saw yourself as an offensive light armored non self healing/buffing dps machine you are wondering what all the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing is about. I like my class, more as a legacy of my eq1 character then what is currently available, I wish to see my class improved, to inspire a bit of awe from another class at what we are capable of, outside of dealing more dps then lazy rogues and mages.</div><p>Message Edited by farbe on <span class="date_text">05-17-2005</span><span class="time_text">03:57 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sorry if it came off as if I was slamming the opinions of everyone without the "uber" gear, but my comment was directed specifically at this one player.  I read the SK forums frequently, and post semi-frequently, often trying to provide useful info as to how to better play an SK.  And in many posts this particular poster posts nothing but negatives and presents what i feel is a pretty unbalanced picture of the class.  I'll admit the SK has some deficiencies and I've been the first to point some of them out.  I'm all for buffing SKs and I can totally understand why some people are disappointed.  But comments from our buddy Pero such as this one:</span><hr><div><i>You thinking of being a shadowknight?  Dont; I think this class is the worse class out there.  We arent tanks nope.  We arent dps either.  If you want to be a tank become a guardian.  If you want to do damage be a monk or a bruiser.  </i></div><div><i> </i></div><div><i>I find the performance of a shadowknight very disappointing.  They're not worth becoming one.  Until SOE have actually fixed this class in making the taunts better to not to lose aggro, or give us higher damage.  If not I wouldnt waste my time with one.  The horse you get isnt worth it,  In two months you get jboots and a better horse then a SK gets.SKs are not good tanks I have a hard time in aggroing one monsterAll my spells are adapt one</i><i>Its really impossible to wait three seconds.  Some mobs will kill you less then that.  The group have to attack right away or you be dead.</i><i>SKs are the worst class and we do suck.   We cant hold aggro at all.  I have tried everything that would try to keep aggro mob encounters up to 3 mobs,  I easily lose aggro sometimes with in ten seconds, normally to damage dealer or a mystic giving out buffs. </i><hr>I can't help but think this guy just doesnt have a clue how to play an SK.  We have some real issues, but this guy goes around talking about how he cant keep single target agro off a [Removed for Content] Mystic and some of his other comments have shown he's ignorant about the abilities and techniques involved in playing a tank as a whole.  SKs of all levels, playstyles and qualities of equipment are expressing that they don't have the same problems this guy does and I'm suggesting that his lack of upgraded spells contributes to his poor abilities.</div><span>The other thing is, there's a huge combat revamp coming soon.  The game and the class will be very different a month from now and thus complaining about how bad the class is and how the devs aren't adressing it is shortsighted.  True the last few live updates have been disappointing as far as SK fixes, but it's been that way for all classes, and I'm holding out hope that when they say they are taking a look at ALL spells and combat arts, we'll get alot of our stuff fixed.There's constructive criticism of your class...There's venting frustration about the problems with your class...And then there's just flat out crying in multiple threads with nothing constructive and nothing new said, and this is what I was adressing.And I do believe that if your opinion is going to be that the class "sucks" you should have at least have maybe a few adept3's and a piece of ebon here or there.  I'm not asking the guy to be decked out in fabled, and I'm not saying he needs to be "uber" to have any opinion, just that particular opinion which he expresses very strongly, and expresses it as FACT in several places (see quotes above) including threads where people who have never played SKs are looking to see how the class performs.</span><div></div>

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>Bronto.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a large amount of experience being a shadowknight.  Its not about tanking Im complaining about its the aggro.  I could easily aggro one or two mobs at the same time.  Its the three or four monsters I have a really hard time.  Ive tried everything to keep the monsters aggro on me.  All my spells are adapt one,  I have looked for adapt III or master spells but they are very rare and if found on the broker its really expensive.  Some players ask for a platinum for one spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Generally the people I talk to tell me that the real tanker is the guardian.  A shadowknights jobs it to tank a mob that breaks aggro from the guardian and pull that monster off the healer or dp.  Comparing guardians to shadowknights in keeping aggro, guardians will win.  They seem to have an auto taunt as a class and their chances of losing aggro from an encounter of 3 mobs or more is higher.  I lose aggro all the time and I try everything to get it back or keep them on but no they break.  When they do its nearly impossible to get them back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still stand that Shadowknights arent worth being.  The real tankers are the guardians and the real damage dealers are the monks.  Why do we need a half and half class?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tho I admit that Shadowknights are probably one of the best soloer classes in the game.  With out high armor class rating and decent damage we do.  Solo mobs will have a really hard time taking down a Shadowknight.  If it wasnt for wizards, bind spell, SKs probably would be the best class for soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just to note this, I didnt know about the rumor of the shadowknight revamp that is coming before I wrote this.  Hopefully its enough to improve this class and if it does I come back here as a happy man.</DIV>

[Krogoxx]

now that i think of it at mid lvls i hated grouping with mythstics thier wards drew to much agroe

[far]

<DIV>Im not nessicarily disagreeing with you bronto, I also dont agree with alot of what Pero is saying. But he does represent a very large segment of SKs  who are utterly disappointed at not only the class design but also the treatment of the SK class by Sony. Looking at what some of the OTHER tank classes bring to a group (particularly from a raid standpoint) can be fairly disappointing (yes I know despoiling mist improves every melees dps by whatever % you want, but outside of the temblar encounter I dont see it having a huge impact, most raid encounters are 10-15 mins in length and 2-3 mins generally is negligable) *SONY we need more timed encounters!*. So while I dont take what he says to heart I do understand their concerns and respect their opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am going to say that we are atm missplaced, and in my opinion the upcoming changes do not bode well. Currently as I understand it either Zerker DPS will be brought in line with SKs or SKs nerfed down to zerkers. Currently I feel we do tank AS well as paladins and zerks (just at a higher power cost) and we will by sonys own admission be dropped below the pallie level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we receive either no change or a nerf in dps (As I see it of course), and a definate nerf bat on tanking ability and maybe just maybe an off chance of of having some better taunts, and tapping ability. The question is will this on the whole improve or hurt our class. Of course this is just me being an alarmist and maybe just maybe sony will make steps towards putting it right, but im not going to hold my breath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kiris420]

<P>I am not going to claim to have the knowledge that anyone else has here. My alt SK is 25.</P> <P> </P> <P>But I do find this a bit puzzling.</P> <P> </P> <P>Pero's problem with SK's is  - </P> <P>"Its the three or four monsters I have a really hard time.  Ive tried everything to keep the monsters aggro on me.  All my spells are adapt one,  I have looked for adapt III or master spells but they are very rare and if found on the broker its really expensive.  Some players ask for a platinum for one spell."</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And then says this about SK's - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Generally the people I talk to tell me that the real tanker is the guardian.  A shadowknights jobs it to tank a mob that breaks aggro from the guardian and pull that monster off the healer or dp. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK, so you are upset that you can't keep aggro on multiples like a guardian, but the SK's job is to take those mobs which do not stick on the guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like both classes cannot keep aggro on groups of mobs. After all, if the guardian was the class that you perceive it to be, then there would not be a job for the SK at all as the guardian would never lose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I am oversimplifying the issue here, but lets be real, the gap is not as big between classes as some make it out to be in normal xp hunting.</DIV>

[DUNN]

<P>Boy oh boy seems like the same topic all over again you are all right and all wrong.  Pero, nothing you can do will change the aggro from changing to Nuker or healer.  Sure Adpet 3 will help but if the nukers nuke mad or healers buff like idiots you will loose aggro.  Yes a guardian will gain that aggro back but you as a SK won't.  So just kill th mob before it kills them, some of the time the Nukers die the healer has a better chance.  Also remember in their wisdom sony Made our taunts spells therefore resistable does not help our cause.  to conclude i will add my SK chant.</P> <P>Sure we can tank, DPS and hold aggro but everybody else can do it better.</P> <P>And by the way it is his opinion and if he thinks Sk he can say it just like if you don't agree you can say SK are the best out there.   Opinions are just that ...opinions; they are not facts or scientific proof.</P><p>Message Edited by DUNN on <span class=date_text>05-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[Bron]

<span><blockquote><hr>DUNN wrote:<div></div><p>And by the way it is his opinion and if he thinks Sk he can say it just like if you don't agree you can say SK are the best out there.   Opinions are just that ...opinions; they are not facts or scientific proof.</p><hr></blockquote> However an opinion proclaimed so loudly in so many places with little to no supporting facts other than one questionable SKs personal experience is open to criticism.  Pero doesn't just say that <i>he</i> can't hold agro against mobs, he extends his personal experience to say that <i>SKs</i> as a whole can't hold agro on mobs, and at this point it stops being an opinion and starts being an erroneous and poorly based fact. There are plenty of people who come on these forums and express their disappointment with the class for various reason, many of them justified.  Our lifetaps are too weak, often resisted, and mana inefficient, particularly when compared to Paladin heals.  Harm Touch, an ability most expected to "define" the class is very underpowered and again often resisted.  People express these opinions, and they can also back them up with data.  They can point to the hard numbers of our mana consumption versus others, the combined amount our lifetap heals and damages versus the paladin heal, and what a small % of a mob's hitpoints our harm touch damages for.  These are finite and not subjective.  The perception of these things as being unbalanced can be debated, but regardless the facts are still out there for all to see. However Pero consistently claims he cannot hold agro, and that it is a defficiency in his class and not necessarily how he plays it.  He bases this on his own experience though in the same thread he says this, many other SKs will come out and say that they keep agro just as well as any other class. I know it probably sounds like I'm nitpicking here, but there really is a big difference between expressing your opinion and stating something as fact.  Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  Everyone can state something as a fact and try to support it.  But if you're going to come out and say "I can't hold agro so the entire SK class can't hold agro" I'm going to call BS.</span><div></div>

[Margen]

<P>Well I don't claim to know the high end game, but at mid levels SK do have problems on aggro IMHO.  When you are burning power like money in Vegas and still lose aggro, something is wrong.  Maybe we wondersly become aggro kings in higher levels and I just haven't seen it yet, but at my level we are kind of sad in that department IMO.</P> <P>I don't say we suck, we do fairly good dps and we mitigate fairly well, but being a descent dps tank really doesn't cut it with pickup groups or raids.  Should we be able to grab aggro and never lose it, no.  But we should be in line with the aggro generation of Guardians and Zerkers.  </P> <P>I never understood the reason that Guardians are best in mitigation (as they should be) and 1st or 2nd best in aggro generation, depending on who you believe in who is best in that area (this is where I have the problem).  If we are behind in mitigation, healing, aggro generation, and group dps (zerkers group buffs are very nice), then where do we stand.  </P> <P>IMHO we should be the best in aggro generation, that way if on a raid we can do that snap aggro that is demanded for secondary tanking, since the Guardians state they should be the only true raid tank (and yes look on their boards thats what they say).  If sony's view is that we should be secondary tanks then give us the tools to accomplish this.</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 33rd Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[DUNN]

<DIV> <DIV>I was half way done going through  what a sk has to do to keep aggro, and decided not again i have written stuff like this before and people do not seem to understand that as a SK you have to work harder than anyone else to kep aggro.  Some of us are succesfull but others are not.  I salute all you fellow Sk that have made it to 50 being a MT for it is not easy and hard work.  I do understand your frustrations and dispaointments for i have lived them myself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am disapointed with EQ2 vision of what a Sk is.  I have endured being called gimped. Being asked what are we good for.   Being denied raid tanking,   Being made fun of when i get one shoted when i gain aggro.  Being  considered one of the lowest dps tanks.  The list goes on and on.  Are all of these things true?  I would say most not all, but the stigma is out there.  Why you may ask?  Not because we canot do all these things because we can. Problem is all the eother tank classes can do it better with less effort. (again my Sk chant)</DIV></DIV>

[Pero Salm]

<DIV>I know that Shadowknights are suppose to be more offensive of the crusader class and the paladin is the defensive.  Shadowknight should have a dp boost maybe 60% of what the monks could do, but our tanking ability is weak.  On the other side of the coin paladins should have a much better tanking ability hold aggro much better then shadowknights can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because Shadowknights have terrible aggro problems and the dps arent that decent, shadowknights are very lacking.  If I were to lose aggro ability for more dps I would mind if there was a balance to it.</DIV>