Crusader Vs Warrior balance, Shadowknight and Berserker [Archive]

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Braell

04-29-2005, 10:46 PM

Comparison: Crusader vs. warrior, Shadowknight and Berserker. Since the announce combat changes on the 26th, I deicide that I would finish writing this and get it posted before the combat changes go live – hopefully when the changes go live it will make it a bit easier for me to see how everything adds up. One final thing before you start to read, I have not got a level 50 character so I will not be comparing actual numbers on combat arts/spells that I do not have, instead I will be looking into why I believe we have those lines of combat arts and spells, and how the early versions compare – hopefully the same level of balance that exists in the lower versions exists in the higher ones, the main worry I have is that combat arts/spells once created and finalized become the building block for the rest of your journey to level 50 and all it takes is one poorly scaled skill in the chain to effect the outcome at the end. Hope some enjoy the read, ohh and one last thing – why I am writing about Crusaders and Warriors instead of Berserker and Shadowknight? Well mainly because if I write from a lv50 perspective (well I am not qualified to write that for a start) is mainly because it’s more accessible to look into the Crusader and Warrior as more people have been those than say a lv50 in their chosen archetype, another reason is that you can look at some of these points and follow the plot and make your own conclusion at any level. Skills from level 1 - 50 (I am sure there are at least a few errors in this, if you see any post it in and it will get added to the list) 1.8 - Wild Swing: Extra low damage attack --- 15.6 - Faithful Swing 3 - Taunt: Taunt --- 17.6 - Inflame 4 - Toughness: Increases AC 5 - Kick: Crushing damage attack --- 19.6 - Charge 6 - Shield Bash: Low damage + stun --- 13 – Unyielding Advance · Requires use of a shield to execute 7 - Assualt: PBAoE attack --- 21.6 - Sickening Decay 8 - Shout: Increases hate with curses all enemies in the encounter. --- 22.6 - Decree of Decay 9 - Call to Arms: Group slashing, crushing and piercing skill buff. --- 23 - Unholy Order 10 - Blessed Weapon: instant Divine damage ability that has the possibility to be triggered each melee attack. (1 concentration) --- 24.6 - Grim Harbinger 11 - Righteous Blow: Melee attack that does divine damage. 12 - Demonstration of Faith: Wards (prevents Health damage) a group member --- 26.6 - Infernal Pact 13 - Righteous Anger: Does instant Divine damage to the target opponent. --- 27.6 - Condemning Spirit 13 – Unyielding Advance: Requires a shield, stuns the enemy, and increases hate towards the crusader. -- 27 - Decrepit Slam · Requires use of a shield to execute 14 - Cry of Conviction: Does instant Divine damage to up to six valid targets within an area of effect around the caster --- 28.6 - Cruel Intent 15 - Power Cleave: A high damage attack. It requires a two handed weapon --- 29 – Sorrow · Requires use of a two handed weapon. 15.6 - Faithful Swing: An extra attack that grants a small amount of hit points to the crusader. --- 29 – Painbringer 16 - Knight's Stance: Sacrifices offense for increased defense and greater chance to block (3 concentration) --- 30.6 - Lucan's Pact 17 - Offering of Armament: Increases a group member's Armor Class at the cost of Armor Class from the crusader --- 17.6 - Inflame: Ranged taunt --- 31- Disease Cloud 18 - Ancient Pledge: Allows the crusader to shield their allies from attacks and increases the defense of their shielded ally. --- 32.6 - Evasive Maneuvers 19 - Vigor of Trust: Grants Strength and Stamina to the target party member (1 concentration) --- 33.6 - Contract of Shadows 19.6 - Charge: Medium damage attack that interrupts combat actions --- 33 - Spiked Boot 20 - Harm Touch: Does instant Disease damage to the target. This damage does not have a casting time, nor does it cost Power, but it has a significant re-use timer. --- 34 - Malefic Touch 20 – Unholy steed: Summons you a horse with mad walnut looking eyes. 21 - Graven Embrace: Causes an ally to temporarily die, often causing NPCs to ignore that ally and attack other members of your party. 21.6 - Sickening Decay: A multi-enemy disease damage attack. --- 35 - Swarming Spirits 22 - Grim Coil: Does Disease damage over-time --- 36.6 - Vile Coil 22.6 - Decree of Decay: Increases hate and curses all enemies with a lifetap shield. --- 36 - Shriek of Terror 23 - Unholy Order: Increases the offense and disease resistance of the group. --- 37 - Insatiable Hunger 24 - Tainted Caress: Sends a deathly essence to cage your target. Sometimes a fragment of its soul is drawn to anyone that damages it. --- 38.6 - Cursed Caress 24.6 - Grim Harbinger: Curses the shadowknight's weapon causing it to sometimes deal disease damage. --- 38 - Unholy Aura 25 - Fetid Grasp : Inflicts disease damage. --- 39 - Baleful Smite 26 - Tainted Sacrament: Summons a pet to attack your target, it lasts a short duration and cannot be controlled, must have a tainted essence to use this spell. --- 40.8 - Cursed Sacrament · Requires a tainted essence -- 24 - Tainted Caress 26.6 - Infernal Pact: wards a target group member and grants a chance to lifetap foes. --- 40.4 - Unholy Blessing 27 - Decrepit Slam : Requires a shield, stuns the enemy, and deals disease damage. --- 41 - Destructive Slam · Requires use of a shield to execute 27.6 - Condemning Spirit: Inflicts disease damage. --- 41.6 - Sickening Anger 28 - Consume VitaeDoes instant Disease damage to the target, and returns a portion of this damage as Health replenishment to the caster. --- 42 - Devour Vitae 28.6 - Cruel Intent: Inflicts area of effect disease damage instantly then slashing damage over time. --- 42.6 - Unending Pain 29 – Painbringer: An extra attack that slightly decreases the strength of the enemy. --- 40 - Dreadful Wrath 29 – Sorrow: Requires a two handed weapon. Deals slashing damage over time to the enemy and releases an area of effect disease attack. --- 42.6 - Agonizing Cry · Requires a two handed weapon. 30 - Draw Strength: Draws strength from your target and grants you some of its strength. --- 44.8 - Siphon Strength 30.6 - Lucan's Pact: Sacrifices offense for increased defense, resistances, and undead form. --- 44.4 - Malevolent Circle 31- Disease Cloud: Increases hate and has additional disease damage over time effect. --- 45 - Insidious Whisper 32 - Grim Sword: Launches an extra attack that focuses death and decay on your weapon. A successful hit deals disease damage to your target. --- 46.6 - Plague Sword 32.6 - Evasive Maneuvers: Allows the Shadowknight to shield their ally from attacks and increases the parry skill. --- 46 - Calculated Evasion 33 - Spiked Boot: An extra medium damage piercing attack. --- 47 - Soulrend 33.6 - Contract of Shadows: Increases strength, stamina, and agility. --- 47.6 - Unholy Strength 34 - Malefic Touch: Does instant Disease damage to the target. This damage does not have a casting time, nor does it cost Power, but it has a significant re-use timer. --- 48 - Ruinous Touch 35 - Swarming Spirits: A multi-enemy life tap. --- 49 - Death Cloud 36 - Shriek of Terror: Increases hate towards the Shadowknight and decreases the disease resistance of all enemies in an encounter. --- 50 - Blasphemy 36.6 - Vile Coil: Does Disease damage over-time. --- 50 - Wicked Coil 37 - Insatiable Hunger: Increases the offense of the group and grants all members a chance to lifetap with each attack. 38 - Unholy Aura: Surrounds the Shadowknight in an unholy aura, granting some strength and sometimes striking enemies with disease damage. 38.6 - Cursed Caress: Sends a deathly essence to cage your target. Sometimes a fragment of its soul is drawn to anyone that damages it. 39 - Baleful Smite: Inflicts disease damage and inflicts additional disease damage to the target's companions. --- 40 - Dreadful Wrath: A high damage attack that slows the movement of the enemy. 40 - Vanquish: High damage medium duration stunning attack 40.4 - Unholy Blessing: Wards a target group member and increases damage capability. 40.8 - Cursed Sacrament: Summons a pet to attack your target, it lasts a short duration and cannot be controlled, must have a xxxxx essence to use this spell. 41 - Destructive Slam: Requires a shield, stuns and stifles the enemy for a short time. 41.6 - Sickening Anger: Inflicts disease damage 42.6 - Unending Pain: Inflicts area of effect disease damage and then slashing damage over time, while decreasing enemy agility. 43 - Pariah's Mark: An extra attack that increases the hate towards the shadowknight. 42 - Devour Vitae: Does instant Disease damage to the target, and returns a portion of this damage as Health replenishment to the caster 42.6 - Agonizing Cry: Requires a two handed weapon. Deals slashing damage over time to the enemy and releases an area of effect disease attack that reduces agility. 44 - Shadowy Elusion: Transports the party members within range to the nearest designated safe spot for the current adventuring area 44.4 - Malevolent Circle: Sacrifices offense for increased defense and a disease based increase in armor class. 44.8 - Siphon Strength: Draws strength from your target and grants you some of its strength. 45 - Insidious Whisper: Increases hate towards the shadowknight, deals disease damage over time, and lowers the attack rating of the enemy opponent. 46 - Calculated Evasion: Allows the shadowknight to shield their ally from attacks and increases the agility of the Shadowknight. 46.6 - Plague Sword: Launches an extra attack that focuses death and decay on your weapon. A successful hit deals disease damage to your target. 47 - Soulrend: An extra medium damage attack that reduces wisdom. 47.6 - Unholy Strength: Increases strength, stamina, and agility. 48 - Ruinous Touch: Does instant Disease damage to the target. This damage does not have a casting time, nor does it cost Power, but it has a significant re-use timer 49 - Death Cloud: A multi-enemy disease attack which damages all enemies hit over time. 50 - Blasphemy: Increases hate towards the shadowknight and deals a small amount of divine damage to all enemies in an encounter. 50 - Despoiling Mist: Decreases Armor Class on the target and surrounding encounter members within the area of effect 50 - Wicked Coil: Does Disease damage over-time 50 – Hand of Lucan: Glowing hand effect.

Braell

04-29-2005, 10:56 PM

<DIV></DIV> Combat arts, Spells and skills: I need to start somewhere so first off I am going to take a look into Warrior Vs Crusader; the following is a list of skills received in order: Crusader: Warrior: Blessed weapon Taunting Blow Righteous blow Mangle Demonstration of faith Rallying Cry Righteous Anger Shield Bash Unyielding Advance Hunker Down Cry of conviction Wound Faithful swing Hold the line Power Cleave Forced Swing Knights stance Soldier’s Stance Offering of armament Concussion Inflame Anger Ancient Pledge Stand firm Vigor of trust Battle Tactics Charge Knee break Charge/Knee break – Both Warrior & crusader get every upgrade at the same level. Vigor of trust/Battle tactics – Both warrior & Crusader get upgrades at the same level. Ancient Pledge/Stand firm – Both Warrior & Crusader get upgrades at the same level. Note: Stand firm is missing from the post in the Berserker forum, but it’s upgrade is at --- 32.6 – Infuriation Inflame/Anger – Both Warrior & Crusader get upgrades at the same level. Knights stance/Soldiers stance – Both warrior & crusader get upgrades at the same level. Faithful Swing/Forced Swing – Ok this one is interesting, the upgrades are received at the same levels for each class, also the first upgrade is at a level where the Shadowknight receives two spells at lv29. Cry of conviction/Wound – Again interesting, the upgrades are received at the same level for both. Unyielding Advance/Shield bash – Again yet another skill not received at the same level and but upgrades stay constant. Demonstration of faith/Rallying cry – Again upgrades received at same level for both. Power Cleave/Hold the line – Power cleave has an upgrade at 28 called Sorrow, which introduces an AOE component – the upgrade to sorrow is at 42.6, at that level the Berserker also receives an AOE trace that to the previous skill and you end up with Berserker Barrage at lv28. Hunker down is received at level 15 and does not really fit anything else, so I am going to lump Hold the line with Power Cleave, I think maybe Power cleave was supposed to have some group effect perhaps a small taunt added to it but for some reason never received it – the upgrades compare nicely though. Offering of Armament/Concussion – ok you have me stumped here, I seem to remember an upgrade at one point though I thought it was bugged as it had the paladin related skill to it – going through the lists I cannot find this spell so not sure if I imagined it now. Blessed weapon/Taunting blow – while these do not compare in function, follow Blessed weapon to Grim Harbinger at 24.6 (Raging strike) then Grim harbinger to Unholy aura at 38 (Promise of Violence) – at 24.6 a Guardian receives taunting challenge, which compares to Raging strike, except Raging strike is more flavored to Berserkers. At level 38 Guardians receive Vengeful Strike which compares to Raging strike and taunting challenge. If any Guardian can tell me what the upgrade to Vengeful strike is then that would be great. Righteous Blow/Mangle – The upgrade to Mangle is Maul at lv25.6, Maul upgrades to Relentless Battering at level 39, at level 39 Shadowknights receive baleful smite, which the previous version is Fetid Grasp – so I conclude that design wise Fetid grasp (at lv25) is the upgrade from Righteous blow, which apart from 25 vs. 25.6 they upgrade the same also. Righteous Anger/Hunker down – received at level 13 & 13.6 – These do not match very well, Righteous anger upgrades to Condemning spirit, to which Berserkers get no arts at the corresponding level. I am not fully decided on these two yet. What it looks like to me is that Warriors and Crusaders have the main bulk of skills that balance out nicely, basically the same combat art or spell which has a slight variation to the class, yet some of those get dumped to create new combat art/spells at level 20, to add even more confusion some skills get blended in, take Taunting blow for example – an attack that adds hate, the function compares to Unyielding advance, but Unyielding advance is matched by shield bash right? Well shield bash is just an attack with a shield, it has a different type of skill used for heroic opportunity than Unyielding advance, from memory Unyielding advance has the same icon as Taunting blow in regards to heroic opportunity – So in effect Crusaders are superior at using a shield compared to Guardian and Berserkers since we combine Taunting blow and Shield bash into one skill. I can see the argument that this is not fair to the Warrior class, but I think this is done this way because of Power cleave, we have a 2-handed only skill and a shield only skill, Warriors have a shield only skill – This is a way of limiting the amount of attacks we have, since the Warrior is focused on weaponry they get more use out of Taunting blow, as they can use it dual wielding weapon or using a two handed weapon, or even a one handed weapon and shield, so although Crusaders have two spells in one we are limited at when we can use it, where Warriors are not. One BIG thing to mention is that a lot of the skills that do not compare as nicely as the main bulk of skills get upgraded at 20-30, skills like Harm touch, focus rage replace the lines of spells, which is why some things do not have upgrades and others will. Concentration: I have not added concentration into my spell list – but I would like to, Concentration is something I have not been able to look, at the Warrior and Crusader period Crusaders use more concentration – fact. Knights stance + Blessed weapon + Vigor of trust and you are full, no room for Intervention if you wanted to use it, if you are in a group and want to cast Vigor of trust then you have to regain some concentration, while not tanking you can drop Knights stance to buff three others. This does not compare well to Warriors at this level at all, mainly because there equivalent effects the group, another thing that causes problems later on due to this disparity is buff stacking. (in short Battle tactics + upgrade, the hp portion stacks, and no concentration required, you are looking at 340+ hp to each person in the group with the training upgrade to battle tactics) Personally I think concentration was a thing that was NOT included in balance at all for fighters – IF Vigor of trust worked for the whole group for once concentration point, then Battle tactics would still be better, but at least you have the satisfaction of doing something beneficial to the group other than one person or keeping it on yourself. On the flip side if you added one concentration point to Battle tactics then it would still be better, more desirable, If you made Battle tactics a single buff that required one concentration point, then I would consider both even, Since they have no equivalent art that uses concentration in regards to Blessed weapon that still leaves one more concentration slot to play with. But the final word on concentration for me has to be – I am not high enough to fully realize how much concentration comes into play later on in the game, I’ll let you all decide that. Weapon and Armour selection: Warrior: Slashing – Great sword, sword, Great axe, Axe, Piercing – Great spear, Spear, Dagger, Rapier Crushing – Great hammer, Hammer, Great mace, Mace, Staff Tower shield – Kite shield – Round shield – Buckler Ranged – Bow – Throwing weapons Skin Crusader: Slashing – Great sword, sword, Great axe, Axe Crushing – Great Hammer, Hammer, Great mace, Mace Piercing – N/A Kite shield – Round shield – Buckler Skin Disruption, Ministration Correct me if I appear to be wrong, but loose ten skills and we gain two, overall we loose eight skills. Ranged – not having this means nothing to put in ranged slot, first noticeable point is that we do not get the benefit from ranged items having stats, fast and simple solution to this is remove every single stat from every ranged item in the game, or add items in for everyone else to use, or add a new skill and add that to all ranged items allowing you to equip an equivalent. Piercing, Great spear, Dagger, Rapier – basically a whole set of weapons we loose, the most significant I would say is Great spear since that includes halberds and well, we all love halberds, but this goes down to the design not wanting Crusaders, Paladins & Shadowknights to use piercing weapons of any kind. Tower shield – Higher stats, similar with no ranged slot, this starts to add higher stats bit by bit, defensive properties, well that is going to change on test, but considering Crusaders, Paladins and Shadowknights are better at using shields due to the skills they get, add in the fact that Knights stance adds Block while the alternates add Parry and Deflection, I think it is all pointing towards Knights having being the better fighter with shields, however restricting them from Tower shields, well it does not make sense, skill for skill I cannot see a valid argument why the difference exists. Disruption, Ministration – These are related to spells – since Warriors do not get spells and have purely combat arts, well the only spells they get are clickys and can fizzle, The downside to spell casting is interruption from movement and fizzles, While our spells do become better, take Demonstration of faith – a small annoyance when movement cancels it, but the upgrade you can cast while running, compare ranged based spells such as Fetid grasp, same as using ranged weapons on the run, but the crusader spells cancel when moving. This does even out at 20 when the amount of spells canceled by movement decrease. Basically, I cannot support an argument that suggests we get Disruption and Ministration instead all skills we lack compared to a Warrior, I would instead say that Disruption and Ministration are in to balance out spell casting and combat arts, If all our spells had superior efficiency/damage compared to the equivalent combat arts then that might support the argument, but the fact is we have those skills because they come from the balance of priest/mage related to spell casting, and it is silly to invent a completely different spell casting system for Crusaders, Paladins, Shadowknights then balance that with the Priest/Mage system, and rebalance to Warrior and again Fighter/Scout/Mage/Priest. Power usage: Crusaders have more power draining spells Vs. Warriors – as you become Shadowknights and Paladins the spells/combat arts slowly start to upgrade and power cost scales to, Soloing my Berserker would be low health, high power Vs. The Crusader that was low Power and high Health, as they both leveled Power evened out a bit better for the Berserker but still, efficiency wise of combat arts Vs. Spells was not as close as I believe they should be, as stated for Disruption, Ministration – there is no need for the increased power to do 2/3 of the job that a combat art is accomplishing. As I will get to in a second, damage plays a roll to – lower damage performance from spell/combat art selection & higher power costs increase the time it takes to kill a creature which starts a vicious cycle of using more power to do the same job, while prolonging the fight which increases downtime and while downtime does not seem an big issue right now, has a possibility of being stuck as it is for to long then a few expansions later when it does prove a problem it becomes impossible to change because it is a sole factor that the expansions balance has been based on etc. Damage, Offence capability: One of the main causes for Warriors damage at these levels I would put down to the skill Wound, I believe now that power cleave was “supposed” to have some Aoe or dot component in and they basically forgot to add it in. Wound does more damage than Grim coil last time I checked, the training upgrade to wound does more damage than Defiler/Mystic dots until the mid 30’s and that is around level 20 for the Warrior. The main factor I find is power, because Warrior, Berserker and Guardian skills have a lower power cost, this allows them to be caster for a longer period – and chain casting combat arts is a good way of getting agro, I find that taunt for taunt my Berserker and Shadowknight compare quite nicely, the main problem is the Shadowknight cannot compete in number of combat arts used per fight, and for fast paced groups I find it a battle to conserve power on the Shadowknight while the Berserker is not. For most of my Berserker and Shadowknights life, my Berserker has been able to out damage my Shadowknight with (Apprentice I) skills compared to (Adept I) – when I did upgrade the bulk of the (Apprentice I) combat arts the damage gap surprisingly did not widen as much as I thought, mainly because the gap between App I and Adept I is reasonably even for us all. However for most of their time played with equal gear and equal weapons the Berserker has been consistently been able to out damage the Shadowknight, and a good portion of the time by at least double, with minimizing the amount of time the Berserk state was on he was still able to achieve double the rate of the Shadowknight all down to more damaging combat arts. The good news to those reading is that Shadowknights do pick up, the first level I noticed the gap lessening was when I got Sorrow, apart from the Aoe it is still solid damage and reasonable power – over time Paladins and Shadowknights do pick up, Being the Crusader and the first ten levels of your archetype seem the hardest by the looks of it. Eating Damage and Defensive capability: First things first – Traits, Guardians and Berserkers receive +def traits, Shadowknights & Paladins last time I checked did not get those offered. Melee Resistances – Right now I haven’t found a UI that lists Crushing/Piercing/Slashing resistances and works, I have not experienced this myself but I am told due to the amount of specials raid mobs use that are Based of Crushing, Guardians and Berserkers tank those better because the mitigation from the buffs scales with high hits so that they outperform wards vastly, added to the fact that they do not dissipate after a set amount of damage it makes them more desirable. I believe the Rallying cry line of spells compares nicely to Wards on group mobs, and solo mobs – but the harder things hit the more it mitigates and the better it becomes, add in the flaw with wards related to the final blow that breaks the ward goes straight into damage before being mitigated it creates a serious problem higher up, the counter argument is that Shadowknights receive a bonus to one of the spell based resistances and that allows them to do better on mobs that have specials related to that resistance, but again it’s the combined stacking of +def, +parry, +resistance buffs and restricted gear that give the Guardian and Berserker an overall edge over Shadowknights in any tanking situation. Buff stacking – Buff stacking for Group buffs on Warriors, Guardians and Berserkers at the moment is to high in my opinion, being able to add more hp than Priests can to the group and with zero concentration used shouldn’t be happening, and well you all the reasons for the combat changes on test. Buffs that add to Defense and Parry along with some others will raise the defense of the Warrior, Guardian and Berserker to the extent of effectively adding a level and more which for a start gives them an advantage – the difference between a blue mob and a green mob is quite big on damage intake. I would argue that due to all this blending in that a Warrior, Guardian or Berserker can tank more efficiently wielding two weapons or a two handed than a Crusader, Paladin or Shadowknight using a one handed weapon and shield – and should that be the case? Overview: and what I am trying to say Am I saying Shadowknights and Paladins are broke? No, that’s not what I am trying to say, even if I sound a bit whiney in places – What I am saying is that I find there are some just DUMB choices made along the way, and some although minor should have been recognized sooner. · Flavor of class should not get in the way of balance. · Buffs should allow for situational superiority not one hundred percent superiority. · Spell casting Vs. Combat arts should be equal · Traits should be equal. · Concentration should be looked at for all fighters. Hopefully when the new combat changes arrive I can go through all of this and find out how it all rates – quite frankly I am looking forward to improved damage and not at all surprised it was heading that way, I said months ago to someone that I would not be surprised if in a few months melee balance happened and Shadowknights would be receiving a lot more damage to close the gap. I am actually looking forward to the melee balance – get to run through all this again then compare it with how it was – sounds fun. Braellar

Genv

04-30-2005, 12:06 AM

<DIV>Very nice post Braellar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good Read, I myself have a 41 SK and a 19 warrior. Was noticeing some of the samethings in the beginning of the classes. I Find that a warrior uses alot less power to taunt then a crusader. And if that is your job as a tank to keep the mobs off of everyone else. Then the more power you have to taunt the longer you can do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I do enjoy playing my SK, love the magic ability of the class. And things are slowing changing to make the class better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laterz</DIV> <DIV>Tenvec TankNstein</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Ibis

04-30-2005, 10:30 AM

<div></div>traits are equal. the only +def options are "traditions" and are thus based on race. +def is being nerfed so the imbalance won't be noticeable. i can't respond on power usage without numbers. if in-fact you're capable of replenishing your health for most of the fight and warriors are not, then in soloing while you may take longer to kill the mob, you have a higher reliability to kill it. a shadowknight in my guild solos mobs I couldn't think of soloing, and the reverse is never true. my mitigation is entirely against physical damage, so once they step off that track I can't solo the mob. Wards are more versatile in what they're useful against. one contributing factor to the relation of kites and towers may very well be the knight's stance spell line, which elevates your shield level. crusaders don't comment much on this but warrior stance has no effect on our shield skill. this likely covers much of the distance between kites and towers though I'd certainly like to know more. wards are not any less useful than the rallying cry line. physical mitigation does not scale better to epic mobs. they have so much ability, I have so much resistance. if resistances of any type scaled better for raids, then I wouldn't need to get several classes in to buff my resists especially for epics. all resistances gain value at higher numbers, especially on epic mobs. For that matter while strong mobs knock away wards with no effort, they also counter the benefits of high resistances of any type, including AC, diminishing the comparitive values crusaders and warriors can attain. So while I have have 65.0 mit and 66.1 avd unbuffed and could get perhaps +20 and +40 more from buffs, the mob will not actually be acting against those digits. The mousover states that these values are relative to level 50 mobs, and probably of heroic difficulty. Epic tier 5 mobs are all 54+ and darathar is like 57 or 58 (I cant believe that I cant remember right now). Mobs at that level of quality (epic) with a level advantage will diminish the quality of your effective mitigation and avoidance in large doses, especially Darathar who is red. A red mob probably can cut through more than half of anyone's resistances. So lets say I'm at 85% and 100% mitigation and avoidance respectively, going up against Darathar. A crusader with similar gear could get to perhaps 80% and 100% mit and avd respectively. Darathar would treat me like 42.5 and 50 and the crusader as 40 and 50. I personally believe Darathar's capability to diminish advantages is greater than that, but you get the point. On a raid, while we still posess our advantages and have others, they're even less unbalancing than in single group encounters. if darathar can hit for 10k and you can ward for 500, you've reduce his max hit to 9.5k or 5%. that is absolute. You DID reduce his damage capability by 5%, and wards would be even more % effective against a target with a lower maximum hit. My physical mitigation is entirely relative to the difficulty of the encounter and is likewise less beneficial against stronger foes. Don't be so quick to disregard the effectiveness of wards without attempting to quantify their actual effect on specific mobs. If I COULD quantify physical mitigation buffs I would, but its a far less measurable form of tanking considering the ability of a mob to disregard a portion of their resistance. this is a great post and I hope you continue with it. <div></div>

Braell

04-30-2005, 02:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> one contributing factor to the relation of kites and towers may very well be the knight's stance spell line, which elevates your shield level. crusaders don't comment much on this but warrior stance has no effect on our shield skill. this likely covers much of the distance between kites and towers though I'd certainly like to know more. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Aye, i noticed this for the stance spells, Crusaders get shield, Warrior get parry and Brawlers get deflection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The logic i can think of is that block would be less usefull to a Warrior, as you can only use it in one weapon configuration, but Parry you can use while wielding a two handed weapon, dual wielding two eapons or single weapon combined with a shield, while the shield skills on Knights stance would have the most benefit while useing a single weapon and shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of the weapon configuration the Crusader is the only fighter that does not get a bonus from the Stance skill that will work with all weapon configurations, basically parry and deflection work with what ever you can equip, while i am not really complaining since it is quite fun as a Berserker to use dual wield and not have to use a shield every time you are in a group situation, the parry mod gives you that little bit extra, even if it's a mental thing where you think you can get away with not useing the shield. But the extra's on the stance spells (excluding training options) soon go for us all from what i remember.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wards are not any less useful than the rallying cry line. physical mitigation does not scale better to epic mobs. they have so much ability, I have so much resistance. if resistances of any type scaled better for raids, then I wouldn't need to get several classes in to buff my resists especially for epics. all resistances gain value at higher numbers, especially on epic mobs. For that matter while strong mobs knock away wards with no effort, they also counter the benefits of high resistances of any type, including AC, diminishing the comparitive values crusaders and warriors can attain. So while I have have 65.0 mit and 66.1 avd unbuffed and could get perhaps +20 and +40 more from buffs, the mob will not actually be acting against those digits. The mousover states that these values are relative to level 50 mobs, and probably of heroic difficulty. Epic tier 5 mobs are all 54+ and darathar is like 57 or 58 (I cant believe that I cant remember right now). Mobs at that level of quality (epic) with a level advantage will diminish the quality of your effective mitigation and avoidance in large doses, especially Darathar who is red. A red mob probably can cut through more than half of anyone's resistances. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have not raided - so it's interesting for me to read snippets of information about it, from how i understand it (maths isnt my strong point so this may be a load of rubbish, but it's what i heard) When the ward is broken the remaining damage from that hit is sent to the victim, bypassing armour mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> if darathar can hit for 10k and you can ward for 500, you've reduce his max hit to 9.5k or 5% <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Correct me if i am wrong but the rest of that 9.5k would bypass mitigation and go straight into damage, i have heard of people complain being downed in one, and that Guardians are less likely from this to happen due to melee resistance buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rubbish data out of the top of my head (i will try overcompensate so the figures may seem low) as i do not know the max melee resistance buffs you can gain, nor do i know how much it would scale down vs mobs over 50, but say it's half your average spell resistance (due to armour haveing spell resistances not melee) say around 27-30%, half that, call it say 14% to an even mob on melee resistance, then half that again and say 7% and you have lost around 700 damage per special/hit that uses the matching resistance, and a lot of the big hits are based on Crushing off top of my head?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As part of the counter argument i heard Shadowknights/Paladins can tank mobs that use specials based on a resistance their class is themed on with the same type of bonus i mentioned above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note i would love to find a UI that lists a working Crushing/pierceing/Slashing restance, i found a statbar which had them displayed but no figures are appearing in them, which is a shame as i would love to look at some of the buffs that enchance those a bit more clearly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding traits - i had lumped them all in one which is a mistake i now realise, i remember my woodelf had one +def trait and one +parry, i heard only large races recieved these so was not entierly sure, i remember my dark elf recieved neither (unless i missed one)... i remember the day i /respec some of traits i picked actually appeared as a buff, when i had picked it the first time i had no icon for it appear in the knowledge book so assumed it was a passive trait.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braellar</DIV>Message Edited by Braellar on 04-30-2005 04:05 AM

Bron

04-30-2005, 05:25 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ibishi wrote:<div></div>traits are equal. the only +def options are "traditions" and are thus based on race. +def is being nerfed so the imbalance won't be noticeable.<hr>Very true, up until now +defense makes an unbelievable difference though. I solo level 47 bedrock grubs in lavastorm for writs, and they pound me pretty good. I have to burn down the first one, pound on the second one pretty fast, then basically just melee the 3rd one to death. If I don't use my pet, the fight is alot closer. When my guardian buddy joins me and my defense skill is bumped up a good 2 levels the things can barely touch me. Same goes for level 46 fallen solusek miners. They don't hit me a ton, but on the ^^ ones I drop my single target c/s/p debuff which drops their offensive abilities by 6 points and they can hardly touch me. I think the guardian's ability to raise their defense skill (and the skill of their whole group) so high is where the major imbalance has been, and it does seem that this is being fixed.<hr>i can't respond on power usage without numbers. if in-fact you're capable of replenishing your health for most of the fight and warriors are not, then in soloing while you may take longer to kill the mob, you have a higher reliability to kill it. a shadowknight in my guild solos mobs I couldn't think of soloing, and the reverse is never true. my mitigation is entirely against physical damage, so once they step off that track I can't solo the mob. Wards are more versatile in what they're useful against.<hr>Again, this is a topic that will have to be debated after the combat changes. Currently, our master1 single target lifetap gives us back 132 hps at level 50 with a mana cost around 130. Our 5% proc buff taps out around 100-110 at adept3 and pariah's mark, which does low damage, adds a little threat, and decreases STR by 3 taps out 57 at adept3. The issue here is that these lifetaps can be resisted and are generally mana inefficient. The proc is unreliable and devour vitae is on a 20 second timer. Wards also are incredibly inefficient right now. An attack that would normally hit me for 300 damage will chew through my 684 point ward and still do some damage to me. Hopefully in the healing changes ward mitigation will be looked at.<hr>one contributing factor to the relation of kites and towers may very well be the knight's stance spell line, which elevates your shield level. crusaders don't comment much on this but warrior stance has no effect on our shield skill. this likely covers much of the distance between kites and towers though I'd certainly like to know more.<hr>SKs don't get any kite shield skill buffs past the newbie Knight's Stance skill. I believe the upgraded paladin stance also doesn't include any kite shield skill, though I think their targetable evasion buff (allows the paladin to block for target) does add a bit. In any case, at level 50 an SK has no way to buff their shield skill. The difference between the stances as far as I can tell is that the guardian stance gives crushing resistance whereas ours gives noxious and the paladin's gives divine. In the futureIi think this could be balanced to a degree...T'haen's melee attack is disease based if i remember correctly which will make an SK a superior tank against him. We probably won't see a ton of mobs like this, but it does create a niche for us.<hr>wards are not any less useful than the rallying cry line. physical mitigation does not scale better to epic mobs. they have so much ability, I have so much resistance. if resistances of any type scaled better for raids, then I wouldn't need to get several classes in to buff my resists especially for epics. all resistances gain value at higher numbers, especially on epic mobs. For that matter while strong mobs knock away wards with no effort, they also counter the benefits of high resistances of any type, including AC, diminishing the comparitive values crusaders and warriors can attain. So while I have have 65.0 mit and 66.1 avd unbuffed and could get perhaps +20 and +40 more from buffs, the mob will not actually be acting against those digits. The mousover states that these values are relative to level 50 mobs, and probably of heroic difficulty. Epic tier 5 mobs are all 54+ and darathar is like 57 or 58 (I cant believe that I cant remember right now). Mobs at that level of quality (epic) with a level advantage will diminish the quality of your effective mitigation and avoidance in large doses, especially Darathar who is red. A red mob probably can cut through more than half of anyone's resistances.<hr>Probably true to a degree, but when a mob is hitting for thousands of damage, even a small difference in mitigation will translate to a few hundred damage less, and even a bit of avoidance can save you from a large damage spike. It's hard to say right now how much of a difference though, because as previously stated, the defense skill right now makes guardians frighteningly better tanks. I am glad though that you pointed out that the numbers displayed are against level 50 mobs, many people completely ignore this fact.<hr>So lets say I'm at 85% and 100% mitigation and avoidance respectively, going up against Darathar. A crusader with similar gear could get to perhaps 80% and 100% mit and avd respectively. Darathar would treat me like 42.5 and 50 and the crusader as 40 and 50. I personally believe Darathar's capability to diminish advantages is greater than that, but you get the point. On a raid, while we still posess our advantages and have others, they're even less unbalancing than in single group encounters.if darathar can hit for 10k and you can ward for 500, you've reduce his max hit to 9.5k or 5%. that is absolute. You DID reduce his damage capability by 5%, and wards would be even more % effective against a target with a lower maximum hit. My physical mitigation is entirely relative to the difficulty of the encounter and is likewise less beneficial against stronger foes. Don't be so quick to disregard the effectiveness of wards without attempting to quantify their actual effect on specific mobs. If I COULD quantify physical mitigation buffs I would, but its a far less measurable form of tanking considering the ability of a mob to disregard a portion of their resistance.this is a great post and I hope you continue with it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This will all be an interesting topic to discuss again after the large combat changes. It is difficult to precisely quantify these things, particularly with mobs like Darathar because a tank going up against him will be buffed like crazy and it's also not exactly the type of mob you can test against very safely. The ward example however is a poor one. Let's say Darathar does hit for 10k damage unmitigated. let's further suppose you can mitigate 70% of that for a 3k damage hit. If we subtract the 684 point ward from the original 10k, we get about 9300 dmg which would be mitigated to 2790. that's 210 dmg off a single 3k damage hit for 150 mana every 20 seconds. The numbers could possibly be even worse than that assuming he's really hitting for more and more damage is really being mitigated, but you get the gist. If we were to pop our ward every time it was available we'd go out of mana fairly quickly if we're taunting as well, no matter how much combat regen we have stacked on us. And all of that is for what works out to a 210 hp heal. Again, the combat/healing changes will likely adress ward issues, which hurt shamans far more than they do us, but until then there's no denying that at high levels wards are very inefficient and ineffective on high level raid mobs.<div></div>

Braell

05-01-2005, 03:06 AM

I totally agree that this probably will be completly changed once the combat changes are finalised and go live. Partly it's because of the anouncement stating where tanks stand compared to each other by MG that cause me to speed write this, i want to get it out of my head to make more room for the new changes. To be honest though i do not think they will redesign our spells/combat arts - just tweek the numbers, Reminds me how much i enjoyed the pop spells. Braellar

Blackdog183

05-01-2005, 04:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote: traits are equal. the only +def options are "traditions" and are thus based on race. +def is being nerfed so the imbalance won't be noticeable. i can't respond on power usage without numbers. if in-fact you're capable of replenishing your health for most of the fight and warriors are not, then in soloing while you may take longer to kill the mob, you have a higher reliability to kill it. a shadowknight in my guild solos mobs I couldn't think of soloing, and the reverse is never true. my mitigation is entirely against physical damage, so once they step off that track I can't solo the mob. Wards are more versatile in what they're useful against. one contributing factor to the relation of kites and towers may very well be the knight's stance spell line, which elevates your shield level. crusaders don't comment much on this but warrior stance has no effect on our shield skill. this likely covers much of the distance between kites and towers though I'd certainly like to know more. wards are not any less useful than the rallying cry line. physical mitigation does not scale better to epic mobs. they have so much ability, I have so much resistance. if resistances of any type scaled better for raids, then I wouldn't need to get several classes in to buff my resists especially for epics. all resistances gain value at higher numbers, especially on epic mobs. For that matter while strong mobs knock away wards with no effort, they also counter the benefits of high resistances of any type, including AC, diminishing the comparitive values crusaders and warriors can attain. So while I have have 65.0 mit and 66.1 avd unbuffed and could get perhaps +20 and +40 more from buffs, the mob will not actually be acting against those digits. The mousover states that these values are relative to level 50 mobs, and probably of heroic difficulty. Epic tier 5 mobs are all 54+ and darathar is like 57 or 58 (I cant believe that I cant remember right now). Mobs at that level of quality (epic) with a level advantage will diminish the quality of your effective mitigation and avoidance in large doses, especially Darathar who is red. A red mob probably can cut through more than half of anyone's resistances. So lets say I'm at 85% and 100% mitigation and avoidance respectively, going up against Darathar. A crusader with similar gear could get to perhaps 80% and 100% mit and avd respectively. Darathar would treat me like 42.5 and 50 and the crusader as 40 and 50. I personally believe Darathar's capability to diminish advantages is greater than that, but you get the point. On a raid, while we still posess our advantages and have others, they're even less unbalancing than in single group encounters. if darathar can hit for 10k and you can ward for 500, you've reduce his max hit to 9.5k or 5%. that is absolute. You DID reduce his damage capability by 5%, and wards would be even more % effective against a target with a lower maximum hit. My physical mitigation is entirely relative to the difficulty of the encounter and is likewise less beneficial against stronger foes. Don't be so quick to disregard the effectiveness of wards without attempting to quantify their actual effect on specific mobs. If I COULD quantify physical mitigation buffs I would, but its a far less measurable form of tanking considering the ability of a mob to disregard a portion of their resistance. this is a great post and I hope you continue with it. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Your wrong about 1 think Ibishi, and ive pointed that out to you before. You would actually be reducing Darathars mac hit by about .01 %. As I explained(and showed you) those wards are unmitigated damage, therefore it isnt reducing his hit from 10k, its actually reducing it to about 9.9k. This is like 4 times now Ive explained it to you, get it thru your very thick head, WARDS ARE NOT MITIGATED. Therefore the damage they actually block is very tiny versus the power costs. That extra 5% mitigation you quoted ACTUALLY blocks more damage.

Ibis

05-01-2005, 08:59 AM

man you're dumb. i know how wards work and I didn't say they were mitigated. i said the damage received upon termination of a ward is mitigated properly, whereas the claim was that it was not. you have the worst reading comprehension of anyone who responds to my posts. if your ward can ward 500 damage, it WILL ward 500 damage. if a mob has a maximum, unmitigated, hit of 10,000 and you can ward for 500 that mob will now maximum hit for 9.5k. you cannot possibly disprove that b/c that is how wards work and that is a 5% reduction in the mob's maximum damage before it goes into mitigation. no, it will not bring the hit down to 9.9k b/c thats assuming the mob can hit for 10.4k which isnt what the example states. <div></div>

Bron

05-02-2005, 09:46 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>if your ward can ward 500 damage, it WILL ward 500 damage. if a mob has a maximum, unmitigated, hit of 10,000 and you can ward for 500 that mob will now maximum hit for 9.5k. you cannot possibly disprove that b/c that is how wards work and that is a 5% reduction in the mob's maximum damage before it goes into mitigation. no, it will not bring the hit down to 9.9k b/c thats assuming the mob can hit for 10.4k which isnt what the example states.<div></div><hr></blockquote>However the fact remains that wards suck. Is 150 mana worth it for 5% mitigation of one hit every 20 seconds? Does this even come close to allowing SKs in their current state to tank big mobs who crush nearly as well as a guardian? The answer is no. No matter how physical mitigation is effected by the level of the encounter, the fact remains that this mitigation is a passive effect that can be buffed before the fight, not a small spurt of mitigation that costs alot of power during the fight. We use wards, we know how they work, and we're not underestimating them. In their current state they contribute next to nothing to an SK's tanking ability against raid content.<div></div>Message Edited by Bronto on 05-01-2005 10:52 PM